Open 859 - C9++ - Postgame

[Gamma Emerald]

If we ignore Enchant for a second, Aisa/Dunnstral have gone down in my reads and BBT/CSF have gone up.

Why has Dunnstral gone down?

[furtiveglance]

I think Aisa and GE both have sus reactions to this claim, whatever it flips.

If no reaction is a scummy reaction then ig my reaction was scummy
If that’s not what you meant then you’re pulling things out of your ass

As for Aisa, I don’t like the essentially nothing that she said about the claim itself but I feel like she’s been towny enough before that to still be a TR.

Yeah, you voted someone else (froggo). You're staying off but not really saying to unvote Enchant either.

[furtiveglance]

If we ignore Enchant for a second, Aisa/Dunnstral have gone down in my reads and BBT/CSF have gone up.

Why has Dunnstral gone down?

Should have been lower in the first place, just little thread presence and kind of active lurking.

[Gamma Emerald]

I think Aisa and GE both have sus reactions to this claim, whatever it flips.

If no reaction is a scummy reaction then ig my reaction was scummy
If that’s not what you meant then you’re pulling things out of your ass

As for Aisa, I don’t like the essentially nothing that she said about the claim itself but I feel like she’s been towny enough before that to still be a TR.

Yeah, you voted someone else (froggo). You're staying off but not really saying to unvote Enchant either.

Okay that’s actually kinda fair. Personally a Doctor claim doesn’t do much for me, protectives are probably the most common/most preferred scum fakeclaims for fishing counterclaims. Had it been a 1-shot Doctor claim I would give it a pass since that can only exist alongside a Doctor so it’s confirmable without killing or using an investigate on it.

[Aisa]

I'm back. Having thought about it, I agree with an Enchant lim. I think Hiraki is closest to what I'm thinking:

Ppl going 'Doctor, no lim' without actually considering the town utility of a scummy doctor claim with no other PRs claimed and no obvious night kill

It's close to useless at the moment if true and will probably lead to us just still having Enchant on the table as an option around D4.

Not even that - it causes a massive amount of WIFOM from all angles. If you think about the scenarios here, this is probably the best scum play and the worst case scenario for town. [...]

What I'm thinking is similar. If claiming a PR caused town to back down from an elim, this would give scum a ridiculous amount of leverage. Therefore, we have to be willing to eliminate claimed PRs. Enchant's play does seem scummy, so I'm ready.

I've checked and I think Infinity and Mala haven't yet been in thread. I'd prefer to give them the chance to check in, so I will hold off until then.

Will get to answering questions next.

[Infinity 324]

enchant needs to die and i think a night phase would help me get more engaged regardless

i need to review what gamma said about csf

also i need to see if i need to review my furtive read. vibes feel very towny but a systemmate is telling me that an enchant red flip would make furtive look bad

-ash

[Infinity 324]

furtive does enchant's flip change your reads at all?

-simon

[froggodoggo]

enchant needs to die and i think a night phase would help me get more engaged regardless

samesies! my brain is very clocked out rn

[furtiveglance]

furtive does enchant's flip change your reads at all?

-simon

Short answer is no.

[Gamma Emerald]

who fills the gap if Encanto is town?

[furtiveglance]

You, Dunnstral, Malakittens, Froggo and even Aisa.

[Hiraki]

Hot take, scum doesn't usually say "goddamn, I wish I had done this scummy thing when I had the chance". I'm guessing froggo is Town.

Why would hammering Enchant have been scummy?

Quickhammering Enchant once he claimed Doctor, if he flipped Doctor, would have been a little bit scummy. The fact that froggo said something that made him draw heat, and now is like "I wish I did a scummy thing so that I wouldn't get heat" is superficially a very bad look (because scum really doesn't want heat on them), but I think it's actually something Town thinks too, and Town is more likely to actually write it out.

I think this is completely false but it's a difference of opinion. I've used this same logic as scum before.

Froggo is my lowkey SK read, they're scummy but not really paired with anyone because everyone susses them.

I still think the connections between Enchant and Froggo are pretty obvious if Enchant flips red. I also don't think a lot of Froggo's analysis is genuine.

who fills the gap if Encanto is town?

I would look in Aisa/Dunn. The people saying that Enchant doesn't give us information are absolutely correct. I really only see the Froggo connection. Froggoscum equity goes down majorly if Enchant is town. However, even after at E-1, the slot:

- Hasn't done anything significant - regardless of pressure (claiming is not significant here since it's basically procedure at E-1)
- Is now claiming a PR that could go either way in terms of the claim
- Claims that this is nothing outside of standard play when people have clearly gone back and shown that it is (including myself in my own personal look)

So I don't really want to entertain the idea that the slot will flip green because that would be a waste of time.

[Hiraki]

I don't really have too much equity in Malascum btw. I don't think that slot is very townie but there is at least something there. Dunn and Aisa fluctuate hard on my radar.

[froggodoggo]

I also don't think a lot of Froggo's analysis is genuine.

is this anything I can refute or just a vibe you get from me?

[furtiveglance]

I also don't think a lot of Froggo's analysis is genuine.

is this anything I can refute or just a vibe you get from me?

You should omgus

[Hiraki]

I also don't think a lot of Froggo's analysis is genuine.

is this anything I can refute or just a vibe you get from me?

It's not a vibe, it's my opinion.

[froggodoggo]

I also don't think a lot of Froggo's analysis is genuine.

is this anything I can refute or just a vibe you get from me?

You should omgus

I'll vote Hiraki if you vote Enchant

[froggodoggo]

I also don't think a lot of Froggo's analysis is genuine.

is this anything I can refute or just a vibe you get from me?

It's not a vibe, it's my opinion.

Well if you give me any examples then I will use em to convince you to the best of my abilities

[Aisa]

Who would you want to elim Aisa?

I'm now fully on board with the Enchant wagon, but for the sake of answering this, slots that are kinda in my PoE are Dunn, Infinity, furtive, maybe Lucian. Mala obvs is doing a Mala low-activity (which seems fair enough, she has reasons) so also no clue what to think there.

[Aisa]

But CSF complained about my furtive scumcase, so I was going to reconsider that.

You don’t have to agree with me!

Also, Aisa, I responded to that post. What did you think?

(furtive's response for context.)

I've read it carefully now. I kinda liked it. CSF's response did make me want to reconsider and I do think that maybe last night I tunneled slightly. Or was wearing my scum-tinted glasses. Or whatever we want to call it.

I'm oscillating between "ooh furtive tone town" and "ooh furtive scum trying out a new posting style". Right now I'm in more of a town!furtive mood, but given I'm oscillating so much I think I'll let my thoughts on you simmer during this night phase. We can pick this discussion up again on day 2 if you'd like. Happy to commit to posting some thoughts on you as soon as I can at the start of day 2, so you don't have to worry I'm just scum being noncommittal/waiting to see what everyone else thinks.

[Aisa]

But CSF complained about my furtive scumcase, so I was going to reconsider that.

You don’t have to agree with me!

True.
It just is a fact that your response made me want to look at furtive again.

[Lucian]

I vaguely dislike Dunn complaining about Aisa's memes on page 27, and this is moreso a note to myself that I need too re-evalue Dunn tomorrow.

Not a fan of 692. Basically, I don't think a post like that of Aisa is very difficult to fake. "What is scum trying to achieve with this" is often a bad question to ask (a lot of scum don't try to achieve something with every single post), but in this case it's especially bad. Aisa claimed she liked Klick's analysis, I asked her what about it does she consider analysis. Reminder, this was the entirety or Klick's ISO when she claimed that:

Spoiler:

Welp. I thought the banter in 12 was between friends or acquaintances, but if not, then it gives a weird pockety, overly-friendly vibe.

froggo is hitting a lot of "awkward scum in the early game" pings.

This is exactly what I think about you atm

VOTE: Lucian

Bold claim. Klick can be Town, I don't think scum's first idea is to attack me for being too friendly when most of my 3 existing posts are criticizing someone.

And, froggo, sure, maybe you are just being friendly. In which case I hope I figure it out.

To clarify, I meant the 'awkward scum in the early game' part, not the friendly part.

why is lucian awkward?

VOTE: hiraki

Welp. I thought the banter in 12 was between friends or acquaintances, but if not, then it gives a weird pockety, overly-friendly vibe.

froggo is hitting a lot of "awkward scum in the early game" pings.

This doesn't feel natural to me at all.

not a fan of giving locktowns on page 1

Why's that?

why is lucian awkward?

VOTE: hiraki

Welp. I thought the banter in 12 was between friends or acquaintances, but if not, then it gives a weird pockety, overly-friendly vibe.

froggo is hitting a lot of "awkward scum in the early game" pings.

This doesn't feel natural to me at all.

can you elaborate on this? maybe it's because we always used to try to squeeze as much info as possible out of rvs, but this actually seems quite genuine to me.

-james

I read it as oversharing. I think Lucian wants to be seen as solving more than he actually wants to solve.

Hello lovely people

This froggo guy is town

I think it's fair to say there isn't much analysis here. So theoretical scum!Aisa, if she doesn't wanna admit that she was calling a nothing ISO "analysis", pretty much has to reverse course and start talking about something vaguely related to what she first called analysis.

With that in mind, I find it odd that Klick would then use 185 as an example of Aisa ~getting her thoughts out in the open~. It kind of feels like scum looking for something to call Townie without thinking through it fully. Because the answer to "what is this post trying to achieve" can very easily be "Aisa is trying to convince Lucian she had some sorta reasons to call Klick's ISO analysis".

[Gamma Emerald]

You, Dunnstral, Malakittens, Froggo and even Aisa.

>:/

[Aisa]

Yeah I did think Klick picked a slightly odd post of mine to call a "goldmine". I think it's behaviour that could also have come from town, though. I think it's a specific town kind of oddness, like scum may be too self-conscious to make a post like that.

[Lucian]

I don't see why self-consciousness would be in play with a post like that. It seems designed to seem Townie, at least in my opinion.