House of the Dragon - Game Over!

[Thestatusquo]

I don't town read johnny.

Why do you want to leave him alone?

[Andante]

I'm just about certain that slot is town, like, I was calling unwnd scum in council chat, then he left, like, I don't see that slot ever flipping scum. Rhae's actions could be explained as town, and for johnny to be scum, he'd have to have been all "why the apathy wagon ON MY PARTNER" like, that also doesn't add up. johnny is town, so can yall just knock it off

[Datisi]

I haven't read mech. Don't care to after 12 hour days. Let's murder someone.

who do you wanna kill, titus?

@andante, go read my case on johnny from beginning of day and his posts in the council pt and tell me he's town

[Andante]

none of yall even have a legit reason to sr Johnny... I don't have many confident reads, but johnny is town, thanks.

[Andante]

whatever. not happening.

[Datisi]

"none of you have a legit reason to scumread johnny"
"i wrote a scumcase on him at sod3, go read it"
"not happening"

why

[Thestatusquo]

none of yall even have a legit reason to sr Johnny... I don't have many confident reads, but johnny is town, thanks.

I need to know why. I'm not fighting you, I'm asking you to explain yourself.

[Thestatusquo]

Like "he let a wagon go through" is not a reason to town read someone when it goes red. That happens literally all the time.

And honestly i find your characterization of it as an apathy wagon to be incredibly weird.

What makes you say that wagon was driven by apathy?

[Thestatusquo]

An Apathy Wagon?

It's been called that before, though not by you.

From what I can tell Dweelee is an apathy wagon

what's an apathy wagon? I'm pretty certain on dwlee maf here, like, one look at that ISO... that is not town!dwlee

[Thestatusquo]

So can you connect the dots here.

How did we get from "I'm pretty sure Dwlee is mafia here." from you, which would indicate that you in particular thought it was a wagon on scum from people who were scum reading dwlee, to you using the exact same phrasing of "apathy wagon." to describe it, despite the fact that you clearly weren't apathetic about it while you were on it as evidenced by the aforementioned comment?

[Thestatusquo]

I'm especially curious because that seems to be the only reason you're town reading johnny, so at the very least the read doesn't make much sense, because given that you were, again, "pretty certain dwlee is mafia", I would expect you to take exception with that description of the wagon, not coopt it later to defend johnny.

I'm not sure if this is just a fake read on town or if its a fake read on a buddy but it sure is a fake read unless you want to give me more context for why you're town reading johnny or more context on why you're now calling a wagon that you were on that you said was certain to be on mafia an "apathy wagon?"

I'll take either. But you don't get to just run away here. Engage more and explain more.

[Firebringer]

i agree with andante on this tho
VOTE: Unowen

Do you town read Johnny? If so, why?

i explained what i think of johnny slot pretty clearly today and don't feel like repeating my self

[Thestatusquo]

i am in catchup mode, simply pointing me to the posts would have worked man.

[Firebringer]

briief synopsis: i townread slot for Rhae because her play makes no sense from scum pov. I don't townread anything unwnd or even Johnny has done. I think johnny posts of scumhunting are very lackluster and i don't really like how he is so willing to not get a PR and give it to his scumread of andres with the reason of "well i prefer not but if it happens w/e". I don't feel johnny actively sorting game.

Rhae seems very likely town here and also rhae/dwlee posts don't seem like buddies in the dissenter PT. Johnny himself has done nothing to make me think its a town slot, and i haven't bothered examining unwnd.

[GuiltyLion]

that's the part i liked the least... you think titus is likely scum here?

I wouldn't say "likely" scum but I think she's a decent candidate for scum that I may be overlooking, and specifically more what I like about that read is less that I think it's necessarily 100% accurate but more that I think the process makes sense. Dann has a working Theory of the Game ("LLD was the scum pick for King") and then pulled out an interesting point on Titus 769 being a soft townread/push for LLD King with plausible deniability. Dann didn't call this out but if I'm running with that theory it's also interesting Rhae had

Titus

as her third pick for King in 1241, despite a fight between Titus and Rhae earlier in the game and Titus being one of Rhae's only main expressed scumreads (793, 969)

Mostly it just feels like a nuanced and novel take on the game that doesn't strike me as disingenuous or agenda-based, gives me the good solvey town!Dann feels

also, as an aside, this is not a super robust or strong meta point but I feel like my general meta vibe of Titus is that as town she is a lot more assertive and confrontational, prone to tunnels with frequent spots of moon logic. When she's scum she's more diplomatic and reserved, flying a bit more under the radar, and almost more reasonable than she is as town. Specifically I think games that give me this impression are HDP where she was town and relentlessly suspecting/pushing me the whole game, vs Situation Room where she was scum and chill, laid back, agreeable and I actually mistakenly townread her for that during most of the game until she got kind of POE'd out. Her play this game is starting to feel more and more like the latter to me.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Can I ask briefly: Didn't Shea kill Maria's for trying to kill Dwlee without his consent? Is that a misunderstanding of why MariaR died?

[GuiltyLion]

Overall, I see two people who believe the other is scum. Right now I'm leaning on it being TvS but I digress

So that being said, what do you think of their stances? Even if there is still more to be desired. Do you believe they are being intentionally vague?

I don't think they're being intentionally vague, but I do feel like they're not seriously trying. I think my central issue is it feels like they had page 5 scumreads on Datisi/Luke/Dann and then haven't evolved them at all, nor given us any new ones that are demonstrably impacted by the past 60+ pages.

I think the towniest thing from this perspective is what I just said, the fact that their Lukewarm scumread seems to have slightly softened, the only scum!agenda I can see there is if they're trying not to piss off Lukewarm and bait him onto their wagon, but even then when Lukewarm indicated that he

didn't

like Dwlee's reaction/response, Dwlee still just kinda nonchalantly doubles down on it.

you're right overall, it's mostly that I desire a lot more from them more than I think these stances can't come from town

As I said, I think the situation is possibly TvS. I may be just paranoid(?) about datisi for no reason and Dwlee is just scum who doesn't give a fuck

quick point on unwnd associatives

this angle in particular, taking a TvS stance on a townie (Datisi) calling out a scum (Dwlee), is like super textbook scum distancing ploy. unwnd can fight against the Dwlee wagon by shading one of the main proponents, while leaving himself room to flip his read on Dwlee if/when Datisi is flipped and if he needs to start bussing to follow the winds of the town.

I find it's actually pretty rare that townies take a stance of "this dialogue between two players is TvS, but I'm not totally sure which is T and which is S". I don't think townies tend to think like that in practice whereas scum more often feel this looks like real solving. A townie is more likely to just... townread their T read and scumread their S read and not leave themselves wiggle room to 180 reverse those reads later. or, alternatively, if they truly feel ambivalent/uncertain about it, they're not gonna be thinking about it as a TvS scenario in the first place, they think it may still be TvT.

so yeah, this looks fake and like a scum angle to take

Given some of the hullaballoo about no real case/reason to scumread Johnny, I would like to highlight this post again as one of my major points against Johnny slot.

The tl;dr is that I think taking a stance of "this looks like TvS" while leaving yourself room to waffle or switch on which player is T and which player is S is more likely to be a scum artificial thought process than a genuine one. I don't often see Town make posts like that.

[Thestatusquo]

Can I ask briefly: Didn't Shea kill Maria's for trying to kill Dwlee without his consent? Is that a misunderstanding of why MariaR died?

I killed maria because I was strongly town reading dwlee and threatened to kill someone instead if people didnt get off dwlee.

GL and the VPB came in and voted dwlee which forced my hand and I killed maria because it was a slot I wasn't town reading and she was annoying me.

The shot choice was bad.

[Thestatusquo]

I'm not going to let this andante point just get passed by though, can we talk more about this.

[GuiltyLion]

I'm not going to let this andante point just get passed by though, can we talk more about this.

I have a thought about it but I think it'd be better to let Andante respond herself first, I will comment on it after she replies to your latest posts

[Thestatusquo]

ok.

[Thestatusquo]

Of note, I think the timing of that LLD post trying to semi-shade me is incredibly interesting if Andante ever flips red.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

I want Andante dead though.

Like I will vote to kill that slot right now.

[Thestatusquo]

Ok. I also think its unlikely you're aligned with johnny, given unwnds entrance to the small council thread.

Could be wrong on that though.

[VP Baltar]

do yall seriously think johnny says that about his partner?

lol yes, absolutely.

Andante scum spewing.