Newbie 2108 - Postgame

[Elements]

Ooo, I quite like that

[Elements]

ooo pagetop

[IdleMuse]

Idle and Cactus were townreading each other from the start of the game, not even starting at Null just going straight to a townread, and never voted each other. Their reasons for towning each other were the same from the start, never developed or really elaborated upon with the new content each was producing. They had very little interaction with each other and what little there was was very bland and had zero conflict or disagreement.
I think this is two scum players who don't know how to interact with each other.

Even newbie scum know not to constantly townread each other. Which is why you put some nice safe distancing in with cactus end of D1. Since we're doing ISOs:

Elements: 283 posts
- 77; likes cactus
- 78; towning cactus with only minor RVS logic
- 79; asks cactus a question, NAI
- 80; getting a read on other peoples thoughts of cactus
- 117; irrelevant to alignment
- 151; nice false dilemma there; the scum read on this is that she's saying 'you're saying cactus and I are acting similarly, so if you townread them, you must townread me'.
- 161; elaboration of the above.
- 166; follow-on discussion highlighting where cactus has been aggressive.
- 288; irrelevant interaction.
- the famous 294; none of the cactus pairs make it to the shortlist. Some are highlighted as possibles.
- 295; irrelevant interaction
- 308; probably NAI, but scumbuddies obviously have an incentive to help each other be more comprehensible in general
- 309; agreeing with cactus
- 310; continuation of discussion with cactus
- 311; continuation of discussion with cactus
- 395; NAI pronoun correction
- Huge gap of no references or interactions (by ctrl-f at least) to

- 685; naked vote on cactus from nowhere (safe distancing, had no votes at that point)

- 704; intent to hammer Weuler (including because it's a pseudo-unvote on cactus)
- 723; I don't understand this post at all in retrospect. Asking someone who is under the hammer, to vote for someone specifically? Then hammering them a bit later? Confusing.
-

751; claiming to know cactus' posting availability?

- 801; questioning BBT's read on cactus
- 805; straight-up townreading cactus
- 809; some easy defences of cactus, nothing too insightful imo
- 812; allowing herself to be seen as persuadable on cactus
- 813; continuation of the above, proceeding to a more a neutral read than before
- 838; discussion of cactus' play
- 840; mildly LAMIST conculsion to that discussion
- 841; defence of cactus, but quite no true scotsman. 'Scum wouldn't play like that'.
- 863; answering a question from cactus
- 893; defending and strengthening the distancing in the latter half of D1. If she really wanted a cactus wagon I feel like she could have tried harder...
- 898; not directly about cactus but worth noting one of the two e-2 wagons was cactus
- 965; "hi tell me who we should smear if/when cactus flips, as that is now looking possible"
- 968; continuation of the above, also testing if the cactus wagon could be dismantled
- 970; continuation
- 972; framing Aureal as cactus' scumbuddy for if/when cactus flips
- 974; refusing to answer in the clear why she's no longer interested in cactus wagon
- 979; implying cactus was mason (did anyone else think this?)
- 1003; 'town for reasons' lol
- 1004; doubling down on 'uhh reasons'
- 1006; still 'reasons'
- 1019; continuation
- 1029; 'i reassessed'
- 1060; Believe me, my reasoning is so sound!
- 1065; Somehow I believe cactus isn't likely to be mislimmed.
- 1098; bit of coaching
- 1104; vote, but, like before, it's when cactus has no votes, even though there is some suspicion around.
- 1131; reinforcing that she's on the cactus wagon
- 1137; 'you changed my mind' is easier to say than to actually case a scumbuddy
- 1141; nice subtle distancing herself there, 'scum are probably quiet right now'
- 1183; post-cactus flip so largely irrelevant
- 1187; post-cactus flip so largely irrelevant, but a mea culpa on town-reading cactus
- and onwards: 5 posts relating to this discussion right now

So like, 56 posts relating to cactus:
townreads: 4
defending: 16
scumreads/votes: 2
attacking/interrogation: 0

Lots and lots of neutral interactions. This is more like what I'd expect from a scum pair, a relatively low amount of direct meaningful interaction, some townreads, but not too many, and some distancing votes at safe points.

The strongest pro-town indication in this ISO I feel is the fact that she stayed on the cactus wagon to conclusion, but, I'm not prepared to clear her solely on that basis, because a) If you're gonna be on a bussing wagon, I feel like you want to be first on, and b) she never expressed why she made that vote, other than 'BBT persuaded me' - (and that was relating to the mason position, not necessarily cactus' scumminess - it was entirely possible cactus was VT at that point)

[Elements]

okay sure we both have scum equity with Cactus. I however pushed through the Cactus elimination while you just sat there voting me

[Elements]

Why reverse the Mason read?

Elements was sure that Cactus was Mason, she didn't have to backtrack on it at all.

I'm not sure why that's such a sticking point for you? Elements went all-in on cactus being mason to the point of saying she'd self-hammer before going for cactus and half the game promptly told her that was crazy. Your own words made it clear you weren't going to believe it if cactus did claim and so Elements second-guesses whether this mason thing is worth tying herself so tightly to cactus. Like I said, I see a lot of panic in how Elements was acting in those posts made over the span of my workday. They're sloppy, in content and form.

I don't think there was a lot of careful calculation going on

, I think she got caught off-guard and was bouncing from strategy to strategy to see what she could best get to stick.

So the bit I've bolded. You don't think there was a lot of careful calculation going on. Why is this scum indicative and not town indicative? Surely as scum I want to calculate the way I post and the things that I post to get people to agree and vote with me so I can shape the game how I want it to play out. My motivations for my confused vote hopping was to see who would go along with it, how the vote recipients would react and what everyone else would think of what I was doing in order to try and figure out where everyone's heads were and therefore who scum is.

[Elements]

Idle, If I get voted and flip town who is your next port of call?

[Elements]

If I'm scum with Cactus I can just say in response to BBT anything along the lines of "yea sure I see where you're coming from I guess I might be wrong. I still think Aureal has the best chance of flipping scum" and keep my vote on Aureal.

[IdleMuse]

okay sure we both have scum equity with Cactus. I however pushed through the Cactus elimination while you just sat there voting me

Did you do any pushing? Or just sitting? From that ISO it looks like mostly what you did while on that wagon was post about Aureal.

I didn't vote cactus because I wasn't convinced they weren't stubborn newb town.

Post-preview: Re. who I'd suspect if you flip town, I'll have a think about that, I have a meeting now.

[IdleMuse]

If I'm scum with Cactus I can just say in response to BBT anything along the lines of "yea sure I see where you're coming from I guess I might be wrong. I still think Aureal has the best chance of flipping scum" and keep my vote on Aureal.

Feels like WIFOM. You could have.. but equally, you could have done what I think you saw a safe distancing vote, which you then decided to stay on to bus cactus.

[Elements]

calling things WIFOM is such a cop out

[Elements]

I can't think of any time if my experience playing mafia where someone has actually used WIFOM because it's WIFOM. Everyone is just on the lookout for it all the time so as not to get caught out but it never gets used. People call things WIFOM because they don't want to town someone for something they did

[Elements]

In no world does scum!me think voting out scum!Cactus makes everyone forget I thought he was the Mason. I'm not braindead.

[Elements]

e

a safe distancing vote because multiple people had expressed interest in voting out Cactus at that point. Oh how safe.

[Elements]

Brick, are you still keen on pushing a Pav wagon today?

Maybe this was the attempt to divert

This also looks bad for Idle given the flip

[Elements]

I'm surprised Elements is voting Cactus.

It's a little surprising at first, but it makes sense.

Why did you think my vote made sense here?

[Elements]

If I'm scum with Cactus I can just say in response to BBT anything along the lines of "yea sure I see where you're coming from I guess I might be wrong. I still think Aureal has the best chance of flipping scum" and keep my vote on Aureal.

Feels like WIFOM. You could have.. but equally, you could have done what I think you saw a safe distancing vote, which you then decided to stay on to bus cactus.

So you think I did the exact same thing with my scum partner two days in a row?

[Elements]

My current voting preference is Aureal > Pav/Idle > Brick?

Even this doesn’t make sense?

Surely it would be :

Aureal > Pav > Idle > Brick, or

Aureal > Idle > Pav > Brick.

And even then it’s just exactly what Aureal is accusing you of, more unsubstantiated and baseless posts.

Seeing as we are playing voting order mafia now I’ll give you mine:

Elements > Pav > Idle > Aureal, or

Pav > Elements > Idle > Aureal

If I'd left my vote on Aureal, brick would have voted there by the end of the day

[Elements]

Brick, talk to me about your town read on Idle. What has changed to make them more town than Aureal since the above quoted post

[BlueBloodedToffee]

If I'm scum with Cactus I can just say in response to BBT anything along the lines of "yea sure I see where you're coming from I guess I might be wrong. I still think Aureal has the best chance of flipping scum" and keep my vote on Aureal.

This is exactly what I'm thinking atm.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

The biggest point for Elements not being scum is that she really didn't have to join the Cactus wagon.

She could have steered well clear and held a decent enough position to do so.

[Aureal]

I don't see that being particularly true. I don't think it's clear what would have happened and it seems reasonably likely that day would have instead gone with an Idle-Aureal-Brick-Pav coalition on Elements. Moreover you hadn't given any reasoning for moving your vote to me so it's hard to consider that as a firm vote that Elements could count on.

Elements continues to play like I'd expect a scum to do here, targeting Idle and keeping her options open with me because she needs to get through two more days, so she's fishing for info about who she can best frame tomorrow. She's not telling us what she's been thinking. Like right here in 1204 she says she vote hopped to see what happened. Great, so what did that tell her?

In no world does scum!me think voting out scum!Cactus makes everyone forget I thought he was the Mason. I'm not braindead.

Okay, so in what world does a scum Aureal care enough why town Charles is a lurktroll to go looking to see if this is expected behavior rather than just being glad this slot is a really good target for miselimination?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

To do exactly what you're doing now?

This is the third(?) time you've mentioned yourself doing that. It's entirely possible that you were hoping someone else would bring that up and use it as reasoning for why you're town. And when they haven't, you've had to do it yourself.

The act in itself appears townie. The referring back to it yourself to get town cred is scummy.

[Alianna]

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[Alianna]

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[Alianna]

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