Newbie 2108 - Postgame

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Post Post #1175 (ISO) » Mon Jan 16, 2023 8:18 am

Post by Alianna »

3.01
Votecount 3.01


Elements (E-1): Aureal, IdleMuse

Not Voting (3): Brickwalll, Elements, BlueBloodedToffee

With 5 players alive, it takes 3 votes to secure an elimination.

The day deadline is in (expired on 2023-01-23 13:12:10).
I townread Alianna.

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Post Post #1176 (ISO) » Mon Jan 16, 2023 9:39 am

Post by Aureal »

It's kind of crazy how being the target of a bad wagon can give you clarity, so here's things from my POV. Elements has been under the radar for pretty much the whole game. The D1 table thing got everyone talking and got her lots of participation credit, but none of that involved talking about any possible scum groups that involved Elements. I let her get away with shifting the goalposts the last time I brought that up; the point isn't that people should scumcase themselves, the point is that in a situation where Elements is scum it created an awful lot of noise about anything other than the truth. That's why even when I townread Elements on D1 (as a response to cactus's question, at that!) it was with a caveat about being nervous about that.

Also having smooth sailing on D1 was cactus. Enough people here read "aggression" as being towny that nobody was really interesting in going after cactus. The closest thing I think was probably Elements voting cactus as the Weuler wagon was quickly forming at the end of D1. No reason was given, and since I didn't want my vote on Meg anymore, didn't want on the Weuler wagon, and was curious what Elements was doing I moved mine there as well. Once the opportunity to hammer Weuler came up, Elements dropped cactus with as little explanation as she'd given for the vote in the first place. It reads now like a distancing tactic - and I started inquiring about it with Elements D2. She said she'd wanted a cactus wagon but people weren't biting, indicating that it was indeed supposed to be a serious attempt. So the obvious followup question was to ask why the change of heart on D2, but some thought gave me the answer "Elements suspects that cactus is the other mason," so obviously I didn't want to pursue that line of questioning openly and so I let it go for the time.

Meanwhile, you come into D2 gunning for cactus. Suddenly there is pressure where there was none. People are also coming after you strong. Elements waffles between whether to be on or off your wagon. Perhaps she realizes you're a potential mason and that wagon won't go through when she finally goes from "on" to "off" and starts searching for another target- me or Idle. Still no reasoning given for most any of this- the only thing I recall her saying about it was when you pushed her for some reasons and she said she'd decided scum were on your wagon.

As the end of D2 draws nearer, suddenly people start expressing frustration with the way Elements has been jumping around with no explanation. Three of us in quick succession express suspicion of her for it, when she'd been getting nothing but apparent indifference to the zany shenanigans to this point. I note that I'm seriously considering her and cactus as a team. Elements is shook- there was nothing but bad wagons D1 but the rest of us left now are so at cross-purposes and indecisive that we haven't got a lot going but your attempt at her partner and she suddenly perceives the risk of herself alternately being the quick wagon at end of day. She shifts mode, suddenly realizing she needs a credibility boost, tries to give a terrible set of 'reads' and comes at me hard, with specious arguments about me that apply much better to herself. She shifts from the position that cactus is maybe the mason to the one that cactus absolutely has to be the mason, like she's panicked in the moment and not sure how to apply the idea that they'd obviously considered about having cactus fakeclaim. She ducks my question about whether it was better to take it to ELo, as it seems to me like trying to determine which person is the real mason in ELo is not so good unless there's a nice obvious breadcrumb trail for them to point to somewhere.

After you, for whatever reason, decide to vote with the person you've said you're sure is scum, she tries to solicit Pav for a hammer on me to take the game to ELo with much confusion about who's to blame. Pav walks the knife's edge but holds firm, and Elements realizes this wagon probably isn't happening. It's time to cut bait on cactus and try to gain back some credibility, and your comment has given her enough of an opportunity to not totally lose face in reversing stance on cactus to re-start that wagon. Maybe she doesn't even expect that I'll actually vote for cactus since I've been hesitating to this point due to the mason possibility and my inability to parse WTF cactus is even thinking, though it'd be silly for her to count on that. There certainly seemed to be some attempt to manipulate how I voted with the "inb4aurealvotesme" post, which I cavalierly decided to lampshade, and she decided to try to paint my lampshading of her manipulation as something suspicious with her questioning of it.

So that's how I saw all that go down, and once I was on that line of thought even more things fall into place. The comment about us being in column C that I argued a bit on principle at the beginning of D2. The way both cactus and Elements were just so damn hard for me to wrap my head around at all, which in hindsight seems like should've been telling me something but I was trying too hard to attribute it to their playstyle. The way I repeatedly throughout the game felt like I was on the same page as Elements for a little while and gained confidence only for Elements to suddenly go chasing off in another direction. There's even the classic scumtell, if you're one for that sort of thing, of commenting about Meg's fakeclaim at the start of D2. (I am not one for using scumtells.) So yeah, actually feeling really good about this one, which is unusual. :lol:
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Post Post #1177 (ISO) » Mon Jan 16, 2023 9:55 am

Post by BlueBloodedToffee »

Why reverse the Mason read?

Elements was sure that Cactus was Mason, she didn't have to backtrack on it at all.

How do you think Elements was trying to manipulate your vote? Where do you think she wanted you to vote when she said 'inb4Aurealvotesme'?
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Post Post #1178 (ISO) » Mon Jan 16, 2023 10:32 am

Post by Elements »

In post 1163, Brickwalll wrote:Good job team! I was completely wrong on cactus and Pav.

I had elements down as town mason but with pav now flipping TM then I also suspect scum is amongst Aureal/Elements. I have Idle and BBT as town. My vote would be on elements not for the two votes already there.
If you think the last scum is me/Aureal and you're not voting me why not vote Aureal?
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Post Post #1179 (ISO) » Mon Jan 16, 2023 11:00 am

Post by Aureal »

In post 1177, BlueBloodedToffee wrote:Why reverse the Mason read?

Elements was sure that Cactus was Mason, she didn't have to backtrack on it at all.
I'm not sure why that's such a sticking point for you? Elements went all-in on cactus being mason to the point of saying she'd self-hammer before going for cactus and half the game promptly told her that was crazy. Your own words made it clear you weren't going to believe it if cactus did claim and so Elements second-guesses whether this mason thing is worth tying herself so tightly to cactus. Like I said, I see a lot of panic in how Elements was acting in those posts made over the span of my workday. They're sloppy, in content and form. I don't think there was a lot of careful calculation going on, I think she got caught off-guard and was bouncing from strategy to strategy to see what she could best get to stick.
How do you think Elements was trying to manipulate your vote? Where do you think she wanted you to vote when she said 'inb4Aurealvotesme'?
I'm not sure and I don't know that Elements was either. The obvious interpretation is to discourage me from voting Elements. It's definitely at least trying to reinforce the narrative she was pushing about me going wherever I sensed a wagon.
Elements wrote:
In post 1163, Brickwalll wrote:Good job team! I was completely wrong on cactus and Pav.

I had elements down as town mason but with pav now flipping TM then I also suspect scum is amongst Aureal/Elements. I have Idle and BBT as town. My vote would be on elements not for the two votes already there.
If you think the last scum is me/Aureal and you're not voting me why not vote Aureal?
So, is this you saying you think people
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vote me? :lol:
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Post Post #1180 (ISO) » Mon Jan 16, 2023 11:09 am

Post by Elements »

Yes
VOTE: Aureal
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Post Post #1181 (ISO) » Mon Jan 16, 2023 11:11 am

Post by BlueBloodedToffee »

Because Elements really didn't have to reverse that read.

Especially as it seems that I was the only person who knew what her read was based on.

I thought the interpretation would be the same as you - to discourage you from voting Elements. But surely then, that would mean your vote would go to Cactus, no? Why would Elements want that?
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Post Post #1182 (ISO) » Mon Jan 16, 2023 11:12 am

Post by BlueBloodedToffee »

In post 1152, Elements wrote:I'm not seeing Aureal anymore atm but I will re-evaluate post flip
Talk about this please, Elements?

That was a quick switch.
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Post Post #1183 (ISO) » Mon Jan 16, 2023 11:15 am

Post by Elements »

In post 1152, Elements wrote:I'm not seeing Aureal anymore atm but I will re-evaluate post flip
In post 1150, Elements wrote:I do think if this flips town then Pav/BBT are where my suspicions lie
In post 1139, Elements wrote:I actually really like 1128 and 1129, they've boosted my Aureal read up quite a bit
These were all a last ditch attempt to get scum to kill Aureal if town and not you or Pav
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Post Post #1184 (ISO) » Mon Jan 16, 2023 11:30 am

Post by Elements »

UNVOTE:
I want to read Cactus again before voting actually
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Post Post #1185 (ISO) » Mon Jan 16, 2023 11:31 am

Post by Aureal »

In post 1131, Elements wrote:Okay team, we've got just over 1 day left to bash it out and find scum.
I'm currently voting Cactus but I'm still up for an Aureal wagon should that become viable
Elements, you forgot this one. :lol:

Are you going to answer my question from the start of the day?
BlueBloodedToffee wrote: I thought the interpretation would be the same as you - to discourage you from voting Elements. But surely then, that would mean your vote would go to Cactus, no? Why would Elements want that?
Which is why I'm a little confused about it myself, but as a flippant "look Aureal's so inconsistent" post I don't know that it requires super-deep reading. There was 2.5 minutes between Idle voting Elements and Elements making that post. If Elements could tell my vote would go to cactus otherwise, there's no getting around me voting one of them and it's natural to be most defensive of yourself.
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Post Post #1186 (ISO) » Mon Jan 16, 2023 11:32 am

Post by Elements »

In post 1185, Aureal wrote:
In post 1131, Elements wrote:Okay team, we've got just over 1 day left to bash it out and find scum.
I'm currently voting Cactus but I'm still up for an Aureal wagon should that become viable
Elements, you forgot this one. :lol:

Are you going to answer my question from the start of the day?
when I'm not longer playing dnd
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Post Post #1187 (ISO) » Mon Jan 16, 2023 12:07 pm

Post by Elements »

In post 1160, Aureal wrote:Okay. Well. Seeing that, I'm going to start off by asking Elements why she was so sure (for a time) that cactus was the mason and BBT why he was so sure that cactus wasn't. (Feel free to wait on that until Elements answers.)
Meg's read list crossed with the wagon on Meg only gave Pav/Cactus as Mason pair option. I looked through Cactus and Meg's isos and neither voted each other so I thought "yea probs cactus" not doing my due diligence to check out Pav's iso which would in hindsight have been obvious that it was him and not cactus.
(you may have noticed I post a lot of things without properly thinking them through first)
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Post Post #1188 (ISO) » Mon Jan 16, 2023 12:20 pm

Post by Aureal »

That's IT? Seriously? Even I had more reason to suspect it was cactus and I wasn't super sold on it, just that it made it somewhat more likely than Pav.

And so why is it 'obvious in hindsight' that it was Pav?
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Post Post #1189 (ISO) » Mon Jan 16, 2023 12:47 pm

Post by Elements »

So I ctrl+F'd Cactus's ISO to find all the posts with Idle's name in them, here is what I found:
- Soft defence of Idle in the form of rebutting a vote on them.
- Not about Idle
- Questioning a vote on Idle, but not really about Idle
- Arguing for town!Idle
- Says I OMGUS'd Idle which I guess could be a soft defence by discrediting me? Otherwise not about Idle
- Pushing for town!Idle by saying what they're doing is genuine.
- Repeat of 245
- Defending Idle as town by calling their actions "towny". Saying he didn't agree with Idle's initial reasons for calling me scum but that isn't present elsewhere in the thread. Asking Idle a very neutral question.
- Not about Idle
- Not about Idle
- Not about Idle
- Townreading Idle for the post he said he didn't agree with in . "Idle's progression has been great"
- Townreading Idle
- Not about Idle
- Literally copied and pasted
- Not about Idle
- Saying he liked things about Idle he's already said he likes
- Defending Idle
- Not about Idle
- Asking about scumreads on Idle and defending them
- Defending Idle by discrediting Aureal
- The 2nd? actual interaction with Idle. Again asking very neutral questions
- Very neutral response to Idle's question
- Supporting Idle and using their post to push Aureal

Of the 24 posts with Idle's name in Cactus' ISO:

8 or 9 were not about/to/to do with Idle in any way
4 were questions about scumreads/votes on Idle
8 were saying he townreads Idle or explaining why he townreads Idle
And only 3 were interactions with Idle in any way

This reads to me like newb!scum not knowing how to interact with a partner
VOTE: Idle while I go through Idle's ISO looking at their posts with Cactus
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Post Post #1190 (ISO) » Mon Jan 16, 2023 12:51 pm

Post by Elements »

In post 625, Pavowski wrote:
In post 611, Brickwalll wrote:VOTE: Megs

This is E-1 again.

I don’t think Cactus is scum. Just a townie with some extremely bad play for now.

Tired of engaging, I don’t think their attempt above is a genuine attempt at having a convo. If they were they wouldn’t answer with “you won’t flip town” and then criticise every comment I make. I must be honest a bit painful to play with someone like that. Anyways, cactus is set in their ways and until I’m limmed cactus isn’t going anywhere by the seems of things. At least I got someone to keep me company for the game.
Here you go again. You unvote Meg to vote Cactus, then 20 minutes later we get this.

Bro, why is town!Cactus NOT making genuine attempts to have a convo? You think town!Cactus is gaslighting here?
In post 566, Pavowski wrote:Ugh. I don't have the time I thought I would have tonight to make big posts and arguments. We're close to deadline, but I want to give Toffee a chance to get fully caught up since they seem proactive enough to do so.

Pending hearing more from Toffee, I'm back to Weuler and Brick the most. Just about everybody else's play I can make sense of, but these two keep pinging me radar. (I want to elaborate more but I just don't have time to dig into it tonight. This is a bummer, but it can't be helped.) I also think we get a fair bit from info if we flip either of these slots, and I don't love Brick's post/vote around Meg just now:
In post 551, Brickwalll wrote:Here are my thoughts in short. Sorry for the multi posts tonight. I wanted to catch up properly:

Aureal & BBT are my two biggest town reads so far. I always say lurking is disinterested townie or lurking scum. By the end from Charles I was getting disinterested townie, maybe a small sign but the way he was posting "I will get into the game soon" or "A lot of work" makes me think they picked up their role PM, saw VT and then thought they couldn't be bothered. I also think this is backed up by BlueBloodToffee's entrance to the game. Aureal for calling out Megs (I had started getting suspicious around similar times) and whilst I admit there been several times in this game where I have agreed with her, I think that indicates town vibes to me and happy to have her near the top of my list for now.

Elements: I have null. I think they were pretty active early on, especially with their now infamous post which is the centre of much controversy, but have been quite since then. They subsequently supported Idle in a further pair scum hunting case. I am trying to look past it but until I am convinced/shown the value in this approach I am struggling to get on board with it.

Meg: Top scum read for now and going to be voting on her shortly, just want to check it isn't the hammer before i do.

Cactus: I have has town-lean and think it is just noobness with the direct, somewhat confrontational questioning approach. Also their inability to look past the argument surrounding elements post is actually quite damaging for town by tunnelling in on me and not putting their attention elsewhere. I did present my initial case in against Pavowski. I stand by that case and think it makes some really good points. I will note that I find it funny that Cactus is deadset on voting me for my complete dismissal of elements post, yet he has done exactly the same thing with my Post 349. He hasn't engaged or poked holes in my theory, he has just dismissed it. The difference between Cactus and Idle is I think Cactus is a bit nooby whereas Idle I think has experience and is somewhat purposefully tunnelling on me.

IdleMuse: There method and approach to the game has come across as town. However, seeing how flawed their case on me is (and somewhat tunnelling like Cactus) I am getting more scum vibes on IdleMuse compared to Cactus. I think there theory on me being coached by Megs in is nonsensical. When pointed out that scum would have DT and it wouldn't make sense to be coached in public, they just updated their theory to fit the facts. Thus, just seems like they are manipulating their case to ensure I am scum. Seems suspect and this is why Idle is number two on my list.

Pavowski: I still have at null. I think my case in and the immediate response from Pavowski was to post indepth posts and making themselves look busy. Perhaps scum feeling some pressure and responding accordingly? Time will tell on this front but for now I am happy with them at null with elements.

Weuler: For someone who was under the pump in the beginning, they have been quietly sitting in the background nodding along since. I would like to see them bring a case to the floor and put forward their number one target and why. Not just bandwagon along. Null for now.
Brickwalll wrote:VOTE: Meg

That is E-1.
Notice there are developed thoughts for everybody except Meg. All Brick says about Meg is "I don't want to hammer." I know Brick has talked about Meg before, but it's just one more weirdness.
In post 554, Pavowski wrote:
In post 552, Brickwalll wrote:VOTE: Meg

That is E-1.
Humbly requesting somebody unvote Meg. I'd like to read a little and Toffee hasn't finished catching up.

These reactions to Meg votes and Meg at E-1

and this
In post 739, Pavowski wrote:I am shocked and sad, and also shocked and also sad
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Post Post #1191 (ISO) » Mon Jan 16, 2023 12:51 pm

Post by Elements »

ew sorry for the horrible formatting
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Post Post #1192 (ISO) » Mon Jan 16, 2023 1:22 pm

Post by Elements »

Here's the aforementioned look through Idle's ISO:

- Townreading Cactus
- Not really about Cactus
- Saying Cactus had "legit questions" otherwise not about Cactus
- Quite a formal response to a question from Cactus
- Not about Cactus
- Scumreading someone for thinking about Cactus' play in the opposite way to them. Otherwise not about Cactus
- Asking about a neutral read on Cactus
- Not about Cactus
- Saying they townread Cactus
- Not about Cactus
- Ignoring questions about Cactus
- Asking other's about Cactus. Saying Cactus is "nuanced"
- Not about Cactus
- Not about Cactus
- Not about Cactus
- Not about Cactus (but they do say they "had no scum read on elements at all in D1" which isn't true given our first interaction was arguing about their scumread on me vs their townread on Cactus. Also in this post Idle sort of says the strongest scumread they have is me for hammering which seems like fishing for an easy wagon)
- Saying they townread Cactus for his aggression (again)
- Not about Cactus
- Not about Cactus
- Hard defence of Cactus by taking points about him by saying they read it differently and think it's town to all BBT's points
- Saying they townread Cactus
- Not about Cactus
- Similar to in that they read the thing in a different way
- Saying they could be sold on the Cactus case
- Throwaway comment about flip flopping on Cactus
- Not really about Cactus
- That whole thing with me thinking Cactus was Mason
- Neutral question to Cactus
- Nothing questions to Cactus
- Response to Cactus that's quite in depth
- Not about Cactus

Of the 31 posts with the word 'Cactus' in them:

13 were not about Cactus
6 were about townreading Cactus and/or why
4 were actual interaction with Cactus
2 questioning reads on Cactus
I'm now boared of counting but there was some defence of Cactus and an attempt to distance towards the end.
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Post Post #1193 (ISO) » Mon Jan 16, 2023 1:26 pm

Post by Elements »

Idle and Cactus were townreading each other from the start of the game, not even starting at Null just going straight to a townread, and never voted each other. Their reasons for towning each other were the same from the start, never developed or really elaborated upon with the new content each was producing. They had very little interaction with each other and what little there was was very bland and had zero conflict or disagreement.
I think this is two scum players who don't know how to interact with each other.
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Post Post #1194 (ISO) » Mon Jan 16, 2023 1:27 pm

Post by Elements »

In post 1163, Brickwalll wrote:Good job team! I was completely wrong on cactus and Pav.

I had elements down as town mason but with pav now flipping TM then I also suspect scum is amongst Aureal/Elements. I have Idle and BBT as town. My vote would be on elements not for the two votes already there.
Brick could you rethink your townread on Idle and let me know what you come up with thanks
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Post Post #1195 (ISO) » Mon Jan 16, 2023 1:29 pm

Post by Elements »

@Aureal, are you still sceptical of Idle? Either way what do you make of my case on them?
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Post Post #1196 (ISO) » Mon Jan 16, 2023 6:48 pm

Post by Aureal »

I think that you've dug yourself a heck of a hole with my opinion, and doing exactly what I expected you to do- go on the attack against Idle- does not help your case at this point. Maybe you want to try filling us in on what
your
thought process has been this whole time, since you've been kindly keeping us all in the dark? You're showing us now that you're capable of putting in some effort- why is it suddenly so urgent to do so now? Where was this effort when you were insisting you were absolutely sure cactus was the mason because you hadn't even bothered looking at the alternative?
"Yeah after a point it felt like Aureal was the only one talking sense despite being a goose so I just followed."
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Post Post #1197 (ISO) » Tue Jan 17, 2023 1:15 am

Post by Elements »

That's just how I play
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Post Post #1198 (ISO) » Tue Jan 17, 2023 1:24 am

Post by Elements »

Have you read my case on Idle? If so what do you make of what I've said? From what I can gather, currently your scum read on me is because of my wild abandon in voting everyone without reason and thinking Cactus was the mason. Is there anything else to it?
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Post Post #1199 (ISO) » Tue Jan 17, 2023 2:27 am

Post by Elements »

Idle and Cactus are the only people that thought my start of game play was aggressive too I think. Which I think could be a scum pair thinking my interaction with Idle was more of a push than it was because as scum you're more paranoid about being pushed.
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