Newbie 2109: Taco Hemingway | Game Over

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Yo we have like 30 hours before deadline.

@CCG why are you providing so little content in your last few posts?

Been busy today, and only kept up with the current page, am catching up on the last 2 pages rn.

Vote: Dio

ALL ABOARD ME JOLLY BOYS GIRLS AND OTHER GENDERS OF CHOICE!

Aye aye Cap'n! Or wait, would the captain technically be Aurorus?
Anyways, VOTE: Diony

sus

. Will ISO him after I catch up.

AV is the captain, I'm just the first mate!

[Dionysus]

Woah nelly. Seems like my post has touched a nerve.

I’ll break point 3 down into its two constituent parts:

firstly, you said you were convinced to vote for CCG based on Fred pushing a narrative hard, but when I showed you Fred’s post, there was nothing that would fit that description.

As for the Fred vote - it’s the way you phrased it. Why not just say “He appears to me to be flailing scum” rather than there’s a town consensus that you agree with?

Hiding might not be the right word for the Fred vote given you were already voting them - I’ll accept that - but it definitely fits for the CCG one; and there’s a similar vibe (even if not an exact parallel) from the post I quoted.

As for the E-1, they are two totally different scenarios. One was early to mid game where a hammer would make someone obvScum. The CCG vote put someone at E-1

whilst someone else who had not voted for that person was themselves at E-1 with declared intent to hammer

. In this case, scum!fred who thinks they’re going to be eliminated either way takes the pot-shot and eliminates WS before they can claim. If you’re already going to be eliminated, being made obvScum makes no difference. The two scenarios are not comparable and I’m surprised you would try to say that they are.

Are you sincere town who is as wound up as you appear in your post at having to defend the same accusations yet again? Or are you frustrated scum who thought they’d gotten by today after the initial suspicion on you faded?

I have been wrestling between head and heart today (head says stick with LLD elimination; heart says don’t), and this little exchange may just have been the chair to the face while the referee’s back was turned I needed to decide an otherwise even match - having to defend those points has only made me believe in their validity more firmly. I’m willing to see where this goes.

VOTE: Dio

Ok. let's take this point by point. I've (attempted to) colour coordinate. Hope it makes sense lol.

Point one:

Forgive me for misremembering. There was a general narrative early on that this was a scum move by CCG and as it was directed at me, I got caught up with it. I assigned too much of that credit to Campbell simply because he got the ball rolling.

Point two:

If wording is your issue here, please read my ISO and you will see I presented it independently without tying it to a consensus or anyone else in post #102 (which you will also note is earlier than the post you are taking exception to).

Point three:

Ok fair. I'm just frustrated people keep coming back to this when 1) it happened so early in the game and 2) I have already said I have changed my mind on that whole affair after a re-read.

My overall frustration is borne from two things: the first one is that I feel like I am continually having to defend myself against the same points as you have noted. The other is that people are misreading me. I have not been hiding, lurking, deflecting, latching on to others' reads like you* have claimed in this post and others. I have been firm. I think LLD is scum. I think she is scum because Campbell's behaviour was all over the place, changing reads left and right. It was also Campbell who started the ball rolling with the CCG E-1 mess. Campbells defence of this was nonsense. Deliberately acting suspicious in order to... what? Show who *isn't* pointing the finger? That is a level of strategic thinking not fit for someone whose engagement with the game was as low as it was. The way LLD has behaved since she took over has not assuaged my suspicions. She is acting like a scrabbling scum like he was, only this time she is more aggressive and active about it.

*Some of these are yours, but not all. The ones that aren't have come from others!

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Survivalism is not a scum tell.

Using it as the only reason to continue your scum read against me is a scummy continuation read from a former LHF who you could say practically anything about and be fine, and now it's harder.

As it happens... I'm sorry your easy town elimination suddenly morphed into Me, but.... adapt or perish.

[DkKoba]

Votecount 1.10

Następna stacja - Taco Hemingway

Dionysus

(3): AurorusVox, Lady Lambdadelta, CCGeek

Save The Dragons

(2): KingTroll, Space

Lady Lambdadelta

(2): Not Known 15, Dionysus

Not Voting

(2): Weuler, Save The Dragons


With 9 alive, it takes 5 to eliminate.

Day 1 deadline ends in: (expired on 2023-01-22 16:03:39).

[Dionysus]

Survivalism is not a scum tell.

Using it as the only reason to continue your scum read against me is a scummy continuation read from a former LHF who you could say practically anything about and be fine, and now it's harder.

As it happens... I'm sorry your easy town elimination suddenly morphed into Me, but.... adapt or perish.

Sorry I don't understand what you're saying in the first sentence so I am not able to respond?

[Dionysus]

Survivalism is not a scum tell.

Using it as the only reason to continue your scum read against me is a scummy continuation read from a former LHF who you could say practically anything about and be fine, and now it's harder.

As it happens... I'm sorry your easy town elimination suddenly morphed into Me, but.... adapt or perish.

Sorry I don't understand what you're saying in the first sentence so I am not able to respond?

Second sentence*

[Lady Lambdadelta]

You're calling me scrambling to find an elimination that isn't me, but Survivalism is not a scum tell.

Of course I'm being aggressive and seeking scum this rapidly when my neck is on the line and there are less than 2 days remaining in the day.

When players at the beginning of the day told "eh we will just kill your slot anyway" and sought to maintain apathy.

Of course I'm going to make moves to shake up that paradigm and protect myself from dying while killing someone I think is scum.

It's not "Scrambling" or.. Scrabbling? It's survivalism and it's a Non Alignment Indicative trait.

[Dionysus]

You're calling me scrambling to find an elimination that isn't me, but Survivalism is not a scum tell.

Of course I'm being aggressive and seeking scum this rapidly when my neck is on the line and there are less than 2 days remaining in the day.

When players at the beginning of the day told "eh we will just kill your slot anyway" and sought to maintain apathy.

Of course I'm going to make moves to shake up that paradigm and protect myself from dying while killing someone I think is scum.

It's not "Scrambling" or.. Scrabbling? It's survivalism and it's a Non Alignment Indicative trait.

By all means be aggressive. But you haven't been seeking scum. You've been hounding me just because I had a firm read on your predecessor. That's literally what made you target me. If you're town and you manage to get me out today, you're gonna be so embarrassed. It'll be nice to see!

[CCGeek]

Am prepping a wallpost

[Lady Lambdadelta]

You're calling me scrambling to find an elimination that isn't me, but Survivalism is not a scum tell.

Of course I'm being aggressive and seeking scum this rapidly when my neck is on the line and there are less than 2 days remaining in the day.

When players at the beginning of the day told "eh we will just kill your slot anyway" and sought to maintain apathy.

Of course I'm going to make moves to shake up that paradigm and protect myself from dying while killing someone I think is scum.

It's not "Scrambling" or.. Scrabbling? It's survivalism and it's a Non Alignment Indicative trait.

By all means be aggressive. But you haven't been seeking scum. You've been hounding me just because I had a firm read on your predecessor. That's literally what made you target me. If you're town and you manage to get me out today, you're gonna be so embarrassed. It'll be nice to see!

Except this is a misrepresentation.

I began on NK15, gave reads on AV, WS, KT and Space individually and then sought out the WS wagon to view some more reads for future depending on if I was right or wrong about you.

I've literally done nothing but hunt for scum since I arrived.

Attempting to represent that as only hounding onto you for being suspicious of me is not only catagorically false, it's also likely argued from a place of frustration because you felt strongly you had my slot dead to rights and now you're on the ropes.

These reactions you are giving to the status quo shifting are not townie, for the record.

[Dionysus]

I'd like to see Aurorus's response to my earlier post.

[CCGeek]

@CCG why are you providing so little content in your last few posts?

Here you go, brother.

A Brief Summary of Events Post-Subs

[peppered with my thoughts]
- LLD subs in, and tunnels into NK15. [This is an interesting take, but he has helped push the game forward at a crucial point in the early game and is a pivotal reason Campbell was universally scumread. Refer to #54. Early posts are early posts and I don't really agree with LLD regarding NK's first two posts. Now, as I have mentioned before, NK should step up their game and give his thoughts on the current scenario. Else he is going to be a prime push for D2. #54 has given him D1 town status, but it won't last. Kinda surprised at LLD pushing him today itself.]
- Dio is prodded. Just something to take note of.
- Dio claims that the game had stagnated, which was partly true. It felt like AV was the only one trying to scumhunt, and the rest of the PL just... lost their motivation. Hell, even the early-game behemoth Weuler admitted to it. I am no exception. However, what is interesting is that Dio does not unvote LLD despite her request to. [Point #1 for scum!Dio. Another thing to note is that LLD's attempts can be seen as genuinely targeted at reinvigorating the game, regardless of what her alignment is.]
- Weuler solidifies himself in the townie bucket with the unvote.
- #208 is nothing short of interesting. Dio rewords, saying the game

HAD

stagnated, that is, acknowledges that LLD has tried to reinvigorate the game, but also says that he is comfortable with her being eliminated. From his perspective, it only makes sense if he thinks everyone else is town... but that does not make sense, does it. LLD even provided him with a path by starting the NK15 wagon. If he had genuinely been a townie with null reads on everyone else, he should have jumped on the wagon no questions asked. [Point #2 for scum!Dio]
- LLD, like KT, raises very valid points regarding FAC's behaviour. #217 and #218 for context.
- She accuses Dio in #219. To which, Dio responds with: FAC was bad scum, you are a better scum player. and...

...unfortunately her behaviour has only managed to reinforce my view that she's scum.

This statement right here is beyond me. Whatever she has said till that point does not register as scum at all.
- NK15 presents the actual arguments for scum!FAC and why LLD should be the elim. However, the last line does not sit right with me, probably just a me thing.
- A little bit of hesitation creeps in in #230, which I do not like. However, in his immediate next post, he calls out FAC's initial read lists and maintains/reinforces his scumread.
- LLD's argument feels townie in #233, and it is very hard to paint #234 and #235 as anything other than town.
- #236 however. "... kill Dio today now"; "... hop aboard my bus". Intriguing sense of humour, if not anything else.
- AV and LLD's difference of opinion on whether the LLD slot elim is low-info or not should be kept in mind.
- #246, Aurorus crystallises the primary suspicions on FAC into a single post. Surprisingly enough, it took till this late into the day for someone to do this. The only other such attempt was made by NK15, but Aurorus' is more comprehensive.
- Fenrir replaces in and unvotes, bringing LLD to E-3. Then pushes out a very casual "let's-get-along" post when the stakes are this high and the DL is ticking. Very unsure of what to think of this sequence of events.
- Page 11 started off with fluff posts. Unsurprisingly, AV is the one who returned with content, here, the crystallised suspicions on Dio, which are all valid.
- Dio gets upset, AV provides some more solid arguments and votes Dio. LLD and me join in on the Dio wagon.
- LLD claims that WS posts have a genuine ring to them and that she needs more content from the slot, which, undoubtedly, we can all agree on.
- She TRs KT and is reading me and Space as null or an unshared lean, if I am interpreting this correctly.

And then comes post #274.

They all have

Dionysus at the bottom of their reads list

, as scum and have all managed to find the time to either vote for LHF in Fred or to push WS instead.

The WS push by KT while keeping Dio on list is interesting IFF KT has a partner on the Fred wagon and was expecting Fred to die, then to be able to do WS. That partner can be Dio.

Well, you see, discussing Dio/KT as a possible scum pair is the only genuine suspicion I provide in the mid-game. My only other push happened to be Dio in the RVS and the early game. I had been waiting in the mid-game for pressure to build up on Dio, but it never did. Everyone was focused on FAC. My vote was on Dio for almost the whole game until my debatable WS shift.

The rest of #274 was fine, attempting at creating a towncore and a D2 gameplan.

If Dio's town, I'll be alive tomorrow anyway to re-evaluate cause they won't shoot me.

This line, however, rang alarm bells in my head for some reason. Enough to make my townlean into a null read. You happen to be a dangerous and aggressive slot, one that definitely screams "trouble" for scum. Assuming you are not scum, you and Aurorus are among the towncore they should attempt to dismantle. And you are certainly the more aggressive one. How can you confirmedly say that scum won't shoot you if Dio flips town? Sure, you can say that scum can leave you alive to cause chaos in D2, but again, that means scum will be among those pushing you tomorrow, narrowing down the scumpool greatly. This statement hinges on the assumption that scum is going to take that gambit. Which is an interesting thing to assume, and I certainly hope this is an oversight in logic.

Anyways, end result: LLD null, Dio Scumlean.

My entire read list being:
Town: Me, Aurorus, Weuler.
Townlean: Space, NK15
Null: KT, LLD, Fenrir
Scumlean: Dio

P-Edit: I'm yet to catch up on Page 12, I see that there has been a lengthy exchange between Dio and LLD.

[CCGeek]

OH FUCK I TRIED USING THE POST COMMAND AND I ROYALLY MESSED UP

[CCGeek]

FIXED: A Brief Summary of Events Post-Subs

[peppered with my thoughts]

- LLD subs in, and tunnels into NK15. [This is an interesting take, but he has helped push the game forward at a crucial point in the early game and is a pivotal reason Campbell was universally scumread. Refer to #54. Early posts are early posts and I don't really agree with LLD regarding NK's first two posts. Now, as I have mentioned before, NK should step up their game and give his thoughts on the current scenario. Else he is going to be a prime push for D2. #54 has given him D1 town status, but it won't last. Kinda surprised at LLD pushing him today itself.]
- Dio is prodded. Just something to take note of.
- Dio claims that the game had stagnated, which was partly true. It felt like AV was the only one trying to scumhunt, and the rest of the PL just... lost their motivation. Hell, even the early-game behemoth Weuler admitted to it. I am no exception. However, what is interesting is that Dio does not unvote LLD despite her request to. [Point #1 for scum!Dio. Another thing to note is that LLD's attempts can be seen as genuinely targeted at reinvigorating the game, regardless of what her alignment is.]
- Weuler solidifies himself in the townie bucket with the unvote.
- #208 is nothing short of interesting. Dio rewords, saying the game

HAD

stagnated, that is, acknowledges that LLD has tried to reinvigorate the game, but also says that he is comfortable with her being eliminated. From his perspective, it only makes sense if he thinks everyone else is town... but that does not make sense, does it. LLD even provided him with a path by starting the NK15 wagon. If he had genuinely been a townie with null reads on everyone else, he should have jumped on the wagon no questions asked. [Point #2 for scum!Dio]
- LLD, like KT, raises very valid points regarding FAC's behaviour. #217 and #218 for context.
- She accuses Dio in #219. To which, Dio responds with: FAC was bad scum, you are a better scum player. and...

...unfortunately her behaviour has only managed to reinforce my view that she's scum.

This statement right here is beyond me. Whatever she has said till that point does not register as scum at all.
- NK15 presents the actual arguments for scum!FAC and why LLD should be the elim. However, the last line does not sit right with me, probably just a me thing.
- A little bit of hesitation creeps in in #230, which I do not like. However, in his immediate next post, he calls out FAC's initial read lists and maintains/reinforces his scumread.
- LLD's argument feels townie in #233, and it is very hard to paint #234 and #235 as anything other than town.
- #236 however. "... kill Dio today now"; "... hop aboard my bus". Intriguing sense of humour, if not anything else.
- AV and LLD's difference of opinion on whether the LLD slot elim is low-info or not should be kept in mind.
- #246, Aurorus crystallises the primary suspicions on FAC into a single post. Surprisingly enough, it took till this late into the day for someone to do this. The only other such attempt was made by NK15, but Aurorus' is more comprehensive.
- Fenrir replaces in and unvotes, bringing LLD to E-3. Then pushes out a very casual "let's-get-along" post when the stakes are this high and the DL is ticking. Very unsure of what to think of this sequence of events.
- Page 11 started off with fluff posts. Unsurprisingly, AV is the one who returned with content, here, the crystallised suspicions on Dio, which are all valid.
- Dio gets upset, AV provides some more solid arguments and votes Dio. LLD and me join in on the Dio wagon.
- LLD claims that WS posts have a genuine ring to them and that she needs more content from the slot, which, undoubtedly, we can all agree on.
- She TRs KT and is reading me and Space as null or an unshared lean, if I am interpreting this correctly.

And then comes post #274.

They all have

Dionysus at the bottom of their reads list

, as scum and have all managed to find the time to either vote for LHF in Fred or to push WS instead.

The WS push by KT while keeping Dio on list is interesting IFF KT has a partner on the Fred wagon and was expecting Fred to die, then to be able to do WS. That partner can be Dio.

Well, you see, discussing Dio/KT as a possible scum pair is the only genuine suspicion I provide in the mid-game. My only other push happened to be Dio in the RVS and the early game. I had been waiting in the mid-game for pressure to build up on Dio, but it never did. Everyone was focused on FAC. My vote was on Dio for almost the whole game until my debatable WS shift.

The rest of #274 was fine, attempting at creating a towncore and a D2 gameplan.

If Dio's town, I'll be alive tomorrow anyway to re-evaluate cause they won't shoot me.

This line, however, rang alarm bells in my head for some reason. Enough to make my townlean into a null read. You happen to be a dangerous and aggressive slot, one that definitely screams "trouble" for scum. Assuming you are not scum, you and Aurorus are among the towncore they should attempt to dismantle. And you are certainly the more aggressive one. How can you confirmedly say that scum won't shoot you if Dio flips town? Sure, you can say that scum can leave you alive to cause chaos in D2, but again, that means scum will be among those pushing you tomorrow, narrowing down the scumpool greatly. This statement hinges on the assumption that scum is going to take that gambit. Which is an interesting thing to assume, and I certainly hope this is an oversight in logic.

Anyways, end result: LLD null, Dio Scumlean.

My entire read list being:
Town: Me, Aurorus, Weuler.
Townlean: Space, NK15
Null: KT, LLD, Fenrir
Scumlean: Dio

P-Edit: I'm yet to catch up on Page 12, I see that there has been a lengthy exchange between Dio and LLD.

[CCGeek]

@mod can you do something about #286? Like edit a note into the top of the post or smthn. I don't want people to start reading it and heading to completely different games when they click on the post links.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

CCGeek, I'm also in a heavily suspected slot.

I expect if Dio flips scum, I'll be shot for being dangerous and more or less proven town.

If Dio flips town though, it'll mean I, knowing I'm a townie, and scum who know I'm town, will not likely shoot me because they believe they can get me miseliminated.

I get I'm competent and skilled but as long as I'm suspicious, being shot is a lower possibility.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

That's all the line was trying to say. The post was trying to setup for the world I think we are in where Dio is scum and I die tonight and leave you all behind my reads.

If Dio is town, I think I won't die and I'll have time to re-evaluate and restate my opinions anyway so I only need to leave a Will for the first scenario.

[Weuler]

Dio has not really pinged me as scum. I am going to take a look at the arguments people have presented, but until then I am putting my vote back VOTE: Ladyλδ

[Weuler]

Lady town and KT scum is an interesting thought

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Lady town and KT scum is an interesting thought

If KT scum, do you not think Dio scum naturally follows?

A lot of people have that connection built, do you disagree?

[Weuler]

Lady town and KT scum is an interesting thought

If KT scum, do you not think Dio scum naturally follows?

A lot of people have that connection built, do you disagree?

I have not been keeping up with the game as much as I'd liked this last week. Could you link some posts were such a connection is made?

[Space]

My mind is a mess after trying to catch up, but some things I feel like I'm very certain on:
- AV and Weuler are town.
- Dio's actions/reasonings to Lady felt like a desperate attempt to not change anything, which I find is weird as the reason why we were in a pickle was because we weren't changing our thinking.
I thought I would have more...

I was going to say that there's at least 1 scum between Wayward, Lady, and Dionysus, but Wayward just got replaced so maybe he was just inactive?
Until Save The Dragons does any major reads though, I'm probably gonna stick with 1 of Save, Lady, and Dionysus.
Trying to think if there even is world where all 3 of them are town. Would have to mean that 2 of KT, CCG, or NK 15 are scum with my current readings, which is possible if Fredrick was telling the truth about lying on his ISO post #1. Dionysus's reaction still strikes me as odd from back then though as they had voted then unvoted CCG in quick succession.

Actually, looking back on this entire CCG mistake saga, NK 15 really showed why Dionysus was suspicious at the beginning with his ISO Post 2.
However, around this time, Wayward has shown interest in voting Fredrick, alongside Weuler (on the same page as the linked ISO) so people were focusing more on Fredrick then Dionysus with a wagon, with CCG being the other?
Then when the 9th slot got filled in by KT, they started pushing Wayward (which I agreed with due to the lack of content in his posts at the time), a new wagon was formed completely overshadowing Dionysus again.
I'm not sure where I'm really going with this thought process tbh, but I do find it weird in retrospect that a second wagon was formed on Wayward due to not answering questions vs Dionysus who had done a previously suspicious action was swept under the rug because Fredrick was seen as suspicious.

Since we need a lim today, and I can't think of any good reason to vote for Wayward's slot now that they've been replaced, I VOTE: Dionysus

placing them at E-1.

[Save The Dragons]

will get to this game soon. apologies, did not realize deadline was so tight.

[Dionysus]

Guys this is so obvious it actually hurts. Lady is obviously scum. Campbell made a poor attempt from the get go to control the narrative, failed and then struggled to get things back on track. His logic doesn't make sense. At all. Acting suspiciously ON PURPOSE on day 1 of a newbie game to see who does and doesn't jump on the bw just doesn't make any sense. To pull this off you need to be more engaged and focused than he ever was. Occam's razor applies here. The slot is scum, simple as.

One thing I will say - I am not acting suspiciously on purpose. So if you go ahead and eliminate me today then there are 100% scums on my bw. So you know where to start D2.

[Dionysus]

My mind is a mess after trying to catch up, but some things I feel like I'm very certain on:
- AV and Weuler are town.
- Dio's actions/reasonings to Lady felt like a desperate attempt to not change anything, which I find is weird as the reason why we were in a pickle was because we weren't changing our thinking.
I thought I would have more...

I was going to say that there's at least 1 scum between Wayward, Lady, and Dionysus, but Wayward just got replaced so maybe he was just inactive?
Until Save The Dragons does any major reads though, I'm probably gonna stick with 1 of Save, Lady, and Dionysus.
Trying to think if there even is world where all 3 of them are town. Would have to mean that 2 of KT, CCG, or NK 15 are scum with my current readings, which is possible if Fredrick was telling the truth about lying on his ISO post #1. Dionysus's reaction still strikes me as odd from back then though as they had voted then unvoted CCG in quick succession.

Actually, looking back on this entire CCG mistake saga, NK 15 really showed why Dionysus was suspicious at the beginning with his ISO Post 2.
However, around this time, Wayward has shown interest in voting Fredrick, alongside Weuler (on the same page as the linked ISO) so people were focusing more on Fredrick then Dionysus with a wagon, with CCG being the other?
Then when the 9th slot got filled in by KT, they started pushing Wayward (which I agreed with due to the lack of content in his posts at the time), a new wagon was formed completely overshadowing Dionysus again.
I'm not sure where I'm really going with this thought process tbh, but I do find it weird in retrospect that a second wagon was formed on Wayward due to not answering questions vs Dionysus who had done a previously suspicious action was swept under the rug because Fredrick was seen as suspicious.

Since we need a lim today, and I can't think of any good reason to vote for Wayward's slot now that they've been replaced, I VOTE: Dionysus

placing them at E-1.

To follow my earlier post up with a response to this one, particularly your note at the start: we didn't need to change our thinking. Campbell was obvious scum. He wasn't hammered (simply) because he disengaged and became largely inactive and then we have given his replacement time to engage themselves. But this is obvious.