Open 871 - The Haunted Village | Postgame

[Kyoko Kirigiri]

I'm guessing that a few of these players are alts, but I don't want to pressure anyone to out that. Maybe it's a good thing to get away from meta.

I guess not knowing someone doesn't mean you don't understand them.
If I don't have to, I think I won't.

Though I think many people already know who I really am.

[Kyoko Kirigiri]

VOTE: kyoko kirigir

Hiiiiiiiiii

Greetings

VOTE: Gimli

[Kyoko Kirigiri]

I don't see it

@Kokichi, unless the RVS banter is AI for std for some meta reason, which I don't know, that's the only post you may be referring to on page 1.
Now, Fuyuhiko's motivation for their (I presume) non-RVS vote is indeed pretty evident, so not to see it may be a little weird -- so I guess it may just be a very soft pocketing (or a very soft attempt to detract the real vote placed on his undeadbuddy, though frankly I would think doing such a thing, with that intention, barely out of RVS when there's no actual indication that relieving pressure would be necessary, has very little to no benefit and would risk outing one's buddy, so I'd be cautioned to exclude this hypotesys).

Though frankly, idk, it's not like it's so glaring that I'm convinced it's so. If we're looking at pocketing attempts, I'd even say that Gimli's joking about Wednesday is more emotionally significant to the parts involved (though, again, it may just be an interpersonal meta thing, which I wouldn't know about).

I have to things to mention regarding this post.

I don't follow the assumptions about how mentioning "Wednesday" was emotional/pocketing or in any way sus. It just was a non-game-related poke at a great username on first page of a mafia game with no game related content to discuss.

the second thing is that this post is actually filled with assumptions and no conclusions. For example in the first paragraph, you're assuming Kokichi is actually having a reason to sus STD and he is not aiming to find a reaction and make progress which is the point of RVS. Secondly you're assuming that Fuyuhiko's vote was serious. His intentions to vote is not yet clear by any means as we have to wait and see where he is going with that line of thought. secondly, you say voting for them might be a "soft pocketing". Is this based on some previous interaction between those two slots in another game? If not how you concluded that his aggressive reaction and vote is an instance of pocketing? and then you add another hypothesis and say it's to redirect attention. Why would he - assuming he is up for no good - would want to redirect people's attention away from his previous RVS vote on page 1?

All these assumptions, told out loud, don't seem to be coming up from a game-solving perspective. Its more like putting events the way you want them to be for your goal rather than finding that goal. All that being said the way you caught up on these two pages, it looks like shading and for that, I'll put my first FOS on you.

VOTE: biancospino



pedit. And I found my first town read.

[Kyoko Kirigiri]

I'll answer intraquote, blue is mine

I have to things to mention regarding this post.

I don't follow the assumptions about how mentioning "Wednesday" was emotional/pocketing or in any way sus. It just was a non-game-related poke at a great username on first page of a mafia game with no game related content to discuss.

I don't get jokes much. And if I did though it was sus, I would have said so, which I haven't.

the second thing is that this post is actually filled with assumptions and no conclusions. For example in the first paragraph, you're assuming Kokichi is actually having a reason to sus STD and he is not aiming to find a reaction and make progress which is the point of RVS.

Yes. Even if they aren't, I don't see what's the problem in actually producing a reaction assuming they were, isn't that the point?

Secondly you're assuming that Fuyuhiko's vote was serious. His intentions to vote is not yet clear by any means as we have to wait and see where he is going with that line of thought.

He offered a game-related reason for the vote. I don't care if it was or wasn't serious, it was not RVS regardless.

secondly, you say voting for them might be a "soft pocketing". Is this based on some previous interaction between those two slots in another game?

No, at least not that I know of. In fact I remarked multiple time how I don't know meta

If not how you concluded that his aggressive reaction and vote is an instance of pocketing?

I concluded that it might yes. And I don't get where you took the aggressive from, I was talking about

not seeing

the stated reason for the vote to furtive.

and then you add another hypothesis and say it's to redirect attention. Why would he - assuming he is up for no good - would want to redirect people's attention away from his previous RVS vote on page 1?

there is no previous RVS vote of std on page 1, so I don't understand what you're asking. I meant distracting from Fuyuikos' vote, which I also said I don't consider RVS. And I said it myself that I don't believe in this hypothesis.
I'm beginning to think I may need to work on my language skills.

All these assumptions, told out loud, don't seem to be coming up from a game-solving perspective. Its more like putting events the way you want them to be for your goal rather than finding that goal. All that being said the way you caught up on these two pages, it looks like shading and for that, I'll put my first FOS on you.

VOTE: biancospino

Well, that's not much of a FoS if you then actually vote.

My main point is that you talk about multiple - kinda baseless assumptions - without using them to get anywhere or make conclusions.

It just seems busy working. Also, it's shady because you mentioned everything that happened in the past 2 pages - assuming everyone with a hidden scummy motivation - without trying to conclude it or commit to any decisions if they were scummy or not.

Also whats wrong with voting a FOS?

[Kyoko Kirigiri]

In other words, I'm not concerned about you having assumptions.

I'm concerned that you don't have any real ones cause a town mindset would make assumptions to make conclusions not just throw them away and in group like that

[Kyoko Kirigiri]

@bianco what do you think of the people sussing you?

For Sahiara, clearly I don't agree with the criticism, however I do get where it comes from, and I do find it +town. I got the impression that they were most concerned about

how

I said things more than anything, which is reasonable but I don't thinks is this big gotcha or anything.

Now Kyoko I like slightly less; I don't know if it's just miscommunication on my part, but some things I found a bit off.

If not how you concluded that his aggressive reaction and vote is an instance of pocketing?

I've already remarked how this tidbit doesn't really match what I've said, but here "He" should refer to std; I never said his reaction was aggressive, and "his vote" was not a thing that existed, and surely not a thing I mentioned.

Why would he - assuming he is up for no good - would want to redirect people's attention away from his previous RVS vote on page 1?

I really want to know what Kyoko thinks I've said. Again this doesn't seem to match, but I'd gladly accept that there may have been a genuine failure on my part to be clear, or to understand her clearly.

All that being said the way you caught up on these two pages, it looks like shading and for that, I'll put my first FOS on you.

I can see the ratio here, but if I were shading than that was a rather terrible job at it.

About the "aggressive" adjective that I used, it was simply in the context of questioning how a vote can be pocketing. You said he voted to pocket so I didn't understand how did you assume a vote was done in that context for pocketing. never said you said it was aggressive.

the redicration comment is about this part:

(or a very soft attempt to detract the real vote placed on his undeadbuddy, though frankly I would think doing such a thing, with that intention, barely out of RVS when there's no actual indication that relieving pressure would be necessary, has very little to no benefit and would risk outing one's buddy, so I'd be cautioned to exclude this hypotesys).

This is basically you assuming that they are a scum team in hypothesis and considering they are redirecting attention or am I reading it wrong? at least you said its a hypothesis you don't wanna agree with.

Regardless why would you even consider such thing in this context (page 1 of game where nothing is there to even make such links). These assumptions without making conclusions is like you consider everyone guilty before proven innocent rather than trying to scum hunt, which is more common from mafia mindset as they know who are guilty and want to frame everyone else as mafia.

I hope I'm more clear with this explanation.

[Kyoko Kirigiri]

The paranthetical you quoted does indeed only work in the case where std and futive are partners. I said it myself how I don't find it likely, so I don't get where you find me assuming people guilty until proven otherwise. If anything I have advocated for the idea of them being partners to be rejected.

I'm saying, why did you feel the need to even entertain the idea to reject it at that point in game?

[Kyoko Kirigiri]

Here is my spin on bianco:

They seem like a person who is putting a lot of effort in. That's not a bad thing, just an observation. Their post 48 seemed like they were saying whatever came to their mind to me.

Post 49 by Saihara Shuichi takes issue with that by pointing out that they aren't saying much, but I think that is just a side effect of writing out their thoughts at the time.

I disagree with post 50 by Kyoko Kirigiri. Specifically, the assertion that post 48 was putting events in the way bianco wanted them; I'm not seeing that, and I don't think shading people is inherently suspicious

I actually pretty much said the same thing Saihara was seeing at the same time. Assumptions not Making any conclusions thrown out for no reason.

Unless I read what he said wrong?

The rest of it is me explaining how that can be from a mafia mind set and explaining how that behavior leads to my FoS. Usually throwing away random assumptions everywhere without trying to conclude anything is either busy working or is from a perspective that want to pain everyone guilty. bianco been doing that on that first post.

I have to admit though, pushing this further and him questioning back my FoS, was sounding genuine so I'm thinking more about it right now.

[Kyoko Kirigiri]

Agree with std on bianco

I'm gonna townread STD as well which probably means he is scum

Wrt kyoko I think her evaluation is fine, overly nitpicky is good early as it gets the game going and whatnot

...

[Kyoko Kirigiri]

Can someone explain Not Mafia's list to me? I have my assumptions about who is who but am not sure.

[Kyoko Kirigiri]

I actually pretty much said the same thing Saihara was seeing at the same time. Assumptions not Making any conclusions thrown out for no reason.

Unless I read what he said wrong?

I think you diverged at the end where you said that they were putting events together to work towards a goal

well, I didn't. I just probably didn't explain what was in my mind completely.

you see when a mafia mindset starts the day, they have a lot of slots in front of them that they know are innocent. experienced mafia and some people get extremely focused on specific slots to act confident, but in general most natural reaction is, not knowing where is the best place to push against and frame. This uncertainty makes them list a bunch of random events and talk about them as they know the target is guilty (when they know they aren't) To put it simply, listing events like that and making repeated assumptions is something that makes less sense from a town mindset, as they have no knowledge and are actually investigating/waiting for more events to get info from.

[Kyoko Kirigiri]

...

Is there something on your mind now?

Nothing conclusive

But I'm happy that you can see what I'm trying to do.

[Kyoko Kirigiri]

I'm a little busy with some real life stuff today. But I'm reading the game when I can so I don't fall behind

I'll post again tomorrow

[Kyoko Kirigiri]

just some fast surface level - skimming - reads
I actually like gimli's way of engaging with people and making content, I feel he has a progressive mindset and is actually trying to solve in a genuine way (call it mostly gut)
I like biancospino more. I think what he did on that first post aligns well with rest of his play style (and specially how he organized that wall) and I find his consistency in his way of sorting things + town
I didn't like Wednesday posts. felt so shallow and on surface and didn't have any analyzing, just for sake of engaging. wanna see were it leads

maki not liking my going hard on biancospino in an attempt to start actual discussions and provoke reactions is an interesting reaction cause its against the flow of reactions that are about it in-game thread. I say interesting cause its probably + towny behavior but need to analyze it along size more clues to be able to brand it as towny or null.

I have some ideas in general about most other slots too, but I'm too tired right now as I had the toughest past 2 days ever and am sleepy right now

[Kyoko Kirigiri]

UNVOTE: for now.

[Kyoko Kirigiri]

just some fast surface level - skimming - reads
I actually like gimli's way of engaging with people and making content, I feel he has a progressive mindset and is actually trying to solve in a genuine way (call it mostly gut)
I like biancospino more. I think what he did on that first post aligns well with rest of his play style (and specially how he organized that wall) and I find his consistency in his way of sorting things + town
I didn't like Wednesday posts. felt so shallow and on surface and didn't have any analyzing, just for sake of engaging. wanna see were it leads

maki not liking my going hard on biancospino in an attempt to start actual discussions and provoke reactions is an interesting reaction cause its against the flow of reactions that are about it in-game thread. I say interesting cause its probably + towny behavior but need to analyze it along size more clues to be able to brand it as towny or null.

I have some ideas in general about most other slots too, but I'm too tired right now as I had the toughest past 2 days ever and am sleepy right now

I want examples. In what way am I being surfacey? And no I don’t have any idea who’s scum yet, so I’m not going to fake a bs confidence I don’t yet have.

In general, I feel like you're not developing opinions and are just surfing on the game flow.

You specifically went focused on people saying they are meta reading you and how that's not possible but you never once expressed any opinion about what you think about that. You said you think the vote on you is a reaction test, but you didn't explore the idea of how that would mean anything

Kaito is very clearly town hunting and I also like his takes. Just makes me feel better about both Kaito and STD.

this is the closest thing to the "general opinions" you shared in-game which is a pretty surface-level take.

that's what I meant when I said your most posts are for the sake of engaging and not necessarily opinion-making.

if you want a more in depth response why I felt like that about your posts I can also make an iso wall of yours and explain how I felt about your progression with more details.

[Kyoko Kirigiri]

Let me a tentative towncore that's frankly too big to be correct.

Maki/kyoko/Wednesday/furtive/fuyuhiko/bianco/Shuichi

I think all those people are town. In before all scum in this, but whatever.

So we have kaito/std/kokichi/penguin/nm sort of ridiculous POE

Kokichi probably the towniest in this row.

VOTE: Penguin

Just potatoing this game so far, and they like big wagons so let's make one with him

Its too early to draw conclusions, We need to check the clues from different perspectives to not miss anything. I can't come to agree with doing PoE hunt this early in the game. I am specifically vary about several names in your town block and want to see where they go with their progressions.

can you write like 2 sentences about why you town read each of those people in your town block?

[Kyoko Kirigiri]

just some fast surface level - skimming - reads
I actually like gimli's way of engaging with people and making content, I feel he has a progressive mindset and is actually trying to solve in a genuine way (call it mostly gut)
I like biancospino more. I think what he did on that first post aligns well with rest of his play style (and specially how he organized that wall) and I find his consistency in his way of sorting things + town
I didn't like Wednesday posts. felt so shallow and on surface and didn't have any analyzing, just for sake of engaging. wanna see were it leads

maki not liking my going hard on biancospino in an attempt to start actual discussions and provoke reactions is an interesting reaction cause its against the flow of reactions that are about it in-game thread. I say interesting cause its probably + towny behavior but need to analyze it along size more clues to be able to brand it as towny or null.

I have some ideas in general about most other slots too, but I'm too tired right now as I had the toughest past 2 days ever and am sleepy right now

What do you think of your fellow detective? I think it would be great to see you have a detective off to determine the best detective.

The towniest thing I saw from them is still their reaction to bianco's post on page 2. The day is young to make conclusions and I want to see more from them.

Your readlist right now is eerily close to mine maybe a few switches. What's happening this game? A lot of one-on-one but is missing that peanut gallery you normally see.

Gimli/Furtive

trade energy back and forth and don't have places to dispose it from. I think that energy coming from those two can just be a overactive scum because I don't feel people should be fooled by activity. When you're scum and you feel like posting you usually just post,

especially

if it's going to get you townread. Their energy needs to be sorted out individually over time but I am just pairing it in my mind as again not SvS. Furtive looks worse because he brings shoddy logic into things that seem like he's trying to impress in some odd way. Doesn't really seem like he's throwing out mafia jargon to make a point just sort of doing it you know. If that is just a furtive thing to do then please testify on his behalf. Uhh gimli less developed thought on him but yeah energy wahoo.

The

bianco/Kyoko

ordeal is also another one-on-one. This has minor involvement with StD on the side but yeah. I maintain that bianco's idks and unsure presentation rang many alarms for me. I still don't really care for bianco's posts but I also think my vote is getting stale. I gave Kyoko a townread because I resonated with that exemplified attitude where you feel you have something and you have to exaggerate your point. She was really attuned to her dangan persona in that moment and I think a lot of her long-winded testimonies were being playful in that regard. (It was cute because Kirigiri is one of my favorite DR characters). That being said, I think these two didn't really resolve. Bianco's last wall came from the same place he was nitpicked about and Kyoko is silently afk at her podium likely in the thinking position. I think that I've reset both of these to null as my read on both of them surmounts to just being how they are, though Kyoko might come back with less RP so who knows.

Fuyu/StD

is an anomaly in a lot of ways. Fuyu has parked on StD and StD has relented in what I feel like is just small doses. You think someone desperately tunneling you since P1 would make the fight a bit more gruesome but instead I feel like Fuyu is just picking on StD instead of trying to bury him. StD seems salty about it and I don't really know how to read it. I don't agree that StD is town but I also don't think Fuyu is prominently town in my mind. I know it seems like I'm just making a pattern out of two people who interacted but then the bulk of the game is so silent and you really just have these isolated incidents between specifically two people that's what happens. Anyways, StD leaves a lot be desired as I don't think he's the super duper shitposter he said he was in p1 but also not really coming in here and being a ball of energy like Gimli. It's just awkward to me I guess. Maybe fuyu feels like he needs to keep his vote on StD for consistency purposes only cause scum think about that stuff all the time. I don't know. I think it'd be presumptuous of me to say they're both scum but I honestly don't like either.

Where does that leave everyone else? Gut town on Kaito/Kokichi and null on PP/Maki (you)/N_M. Lean scum on Wednesday but I don't have a writeup about it.

This is my second favorite post from them though specially for the way he focused on the engagements and tried to develop opinions based on back and forth. I think he was rather with a solving mindset when doing this analysis as he read through the interactions completely, show an honest confusion when it should have been and is careful enough to not draw final conclusions. The way these reads are developed, makes me lean town on the slot.

I really don't get the sudden votes on Kaito, especially when he hasn't said much at all in general. And not much scummy.

Now can you explain what you think about the votes on Kaito and the people who voted for him?

[Kyoko Kirigiri]

Honestly wouldn’t be surprised if Wednesday is scum. She says she hates fake solving and she has zero vocalized suspects. I’d say it’s easier to fake townreads than to fake scumreads.

This post gives fuyu a slight town lean. Not because it's about Wednesday and I also suspect them, but because I like the solving attitude in it.

[Kyoko Kirigiri]

VOTE: bianco

Missed the unvote.

VOTE: Gimli

Missed my unvote? How is that relevant to your vote?

[Kyoko Kirigiri]

VOTE: Wednesday Addams
Thinking about it I might still be on Dragons so I’ll vote here to rectify that.

First scumread on me, I’d be happy to 1v1 with if necessary.

VOTE: Wednesday Addams
Thinking about it I might still be on Dragons so I’ll vote here to rectify that.

Browbeating isn’t exactly a scumtell, it’s just a behavioral pattern. I liked Dragons pointing it out because I had also been rather perturbed by the stern reaction to my question about the townblock. I also think his saying you didn’t give a fuck who is scum was reading into your post to see something that wasn’t there, but it also might still hold a kernel of truth given your apparent lack of interest in finding scum outside the players currently suspecting you.
And I don’t understand why you place such value on Maki’s reads. Seems meta-related, which raises a question of why you’re so concerned about staying secret whilst not really caring to veil your own meta usage.

And noted that you’re voting me and not Maki because you think you can get away with mislimming me. well I can tell you that you’re very much mistaken. I extremely rarely get miselimed and this game will be no exception. Either prove my suspicion to be invalid but you’re omgus vote isn’t impressing me here.

While obviously not thrilled with either Bianco’s and Kyko’s reads on me, they actually sounded believable is obviously dead wrong, yours otoh I don’t really buy.

If you think I’m scum, you don’t freaking think, I’m also being browbeaten. And ditto the converse. YOU CANNOT Have It BOTH Ways - PICK 1.

This reaction is actually awful.

"1v1" is such a bold reaction to this interaction that didn't even get to engagements between your two slots yet. He shares some concerns about you and your vote on him and you're ready to 1v1 them based on someone else's opinion on the slot that based on your previous posts you don't sound hard sold on even?

"their try for misliming you" is concluded by you cause they voted you back after you sheeped someone else's opinion without making an opinion of yours about the slot to vote them?

Also I can't really understand how his explanation of Browbeating and what he thinks about it relates in your head, to his vote on your slot in the first place.

This mindset progression doesn't feel natural and hence goes my

VOTE: Wednesday Addams

[Kyoko Kirigiri]

Kuzu is looking for reasons to wolfread people over really believing anything they're pushing. It's like throwing something at a dartboard and praying someone will cling on. It's pretty obvious scrambling. But, I don't really feel the need to convince anyone on this. I'm keeping an eye on Kiri, given their personality I expect them to have some strong opinions, and if they just take a backseat I'll be raising an eyebrow at that.

But isn't putting people on the spot to see what sticks, a good way to solve the mysteries?

I actually find it quite fascinating how someone can see the same thing I see and get a completely opposite impression than me about that action or reaction. This further proves that no action or reaction is inherently towny or scummy and only if you see the whole sequence of them, you can draw conclusions about the motivations.

What do you mean exactly about my personality btw?

[Kyoko Kirigiri]

Maybe Kyko is scum here too?

You sr for me not doing enough and then I extremely reasonably scumread Kuzo for hypocrisy and you vote me. If they flip red, I’m not forgetting your garbage vote on me.

And there’s the difference, I’m finally doing what I typically do as town when I have a hunch and you vote me for - that despite all of my recent posting being very obviously obvtown.

That’s the difference, I really wasn’t before now so huge fucking FOS on you for that crap vote on me especially if Kuzo’s scum here.

Newsflash, I don’t get mislimmed as town so have fun trying to make that happen.

Bear (not that bear) with me

Explain your "extremely reasonably scum read Kuzo for hypocrisy" like I didn't understand anything please

"I’m finally doing what I typically do as town when I have a hunch and you vote me for" I don't know what you do typically as town. I have no idea who you really are. but I'm not voting you for having a hunch. I voted for your surfing and reaction.

"that despite all of my recent posting being very obviously obvtown." That's a very odd thing to say. What gave you permission to decide that?

Your threat to chain scum read me because someone else might be scum in your mind is actually really weird too. A Town-Mindset is one filled with uncertainties, yet you're linking both people who have sus on you and are saying if one is red the other is too? Do you know if he is going to flip red or not? How is his alignment determining your read on my slot?

[Kyoko Kirigiri]

Why do you think what he says makes little sense?

Just cause he came to the conclusion you might be cum for it?

[Kyoko Kirigiri]

scum* I don't know why s wasn't typed. I apologize for the the typo

[Kyoko Kirigiri]

Firt thing is whatever gimli posted about you has nothing to do with your alignment. This means you're not obv town to me at all.

I tend to individually read everyone and avoid linking my reads as its extremely ineffective to make conditional/linked reads. My vote on you is about your over reaction to getting voted and is about how you were surfing the thread without making any strong opinions before that.

about kuzo's vote on you, I can understand a bit better why you think he is scum but it still looks like a hard sketch. He was saying "browbeating" doesn't mean you're scum but he is scumreading you for not making any strong reads. How is him not scum reading you for one reason means he cant scum read you for another? Also how this means he';s going to push gimli later on?

Also why you think gimli is town in this interaction? is that based on a serprate read/interaction or just because you want to push kuzo for this reason?

[Kyoko Kirigiri]

Maki: the best posting in the game with many thoughts that resonate with my own, and a particular way of positioning herself with others that's not trying to be townread, but it's simply being town. I think once or twice she said something about how she shouldn't be trusted, or that being around her is trouble, which I understand is also roleplay but is also not roleplay. Maki just feels good and sharp and town.

That second part is definitely role play and should have no impact on your read on the slot IMO. can you go on more details about her reads that are resonating with yours?

Bianco: his reaction to being pressured early was pretty good and his solvey posts feel like it's coming from town. I like his big multi-quote work on all the players in the game even if I disagree with some of his conclusions.

can you also explain more about what you liked and didn't like there a bit more detailed?

thank you

[Kyoko Kirigiri]

scum* I don't know why s wasn't typed. I apologize for the the typo

It doesn’t make sense because Gimli hasn’t been over the top anything and certainly nothing nasty in his treatment of my slot.

Kuzo wasn’t being consistent in his thought process like STD was. Consistency: Thinking I’m town and thinki Gimli was a bit too harsh? Disagree but that’s consistent from STD.

Kuzo otoh apparently wants his cake and eat it. He wants to both scumread me but make sure he can blame Gimli. I’ve seen that happen in a game. One slot mistakenly gets a player mislimmed and scum pounces on them trying to blame them for it.

I don’t see Kuzo’s contradictory and ridiculously over the top read on the me/Gimli interaction as making any sense coming from town and he also wants to possibly push furtive and Maki as well, both slots I think are town.

I still cant see any contradition. Nor I see any over reaction on his part. He saw a behavioral pattern and pointed it out, but he said he scumread you for an entirely different reason.

The more you post however, the more I get the impression that you don't have a hard scum read on kuzo and are faking it however. Your initial pushback on his slot was cause of his vote on you after you voted him but now you're accusing him of setting up possible future mislims to justify your tunnel. Not sure if its just your personality to try to fake a tunnelvision or if its alignment indicative in this context.

Or my impression might be off and you really believe these linked reads that you're making cause you actually made one about me and Kuzo's vote while my vote is for a completely different context entirely but I kinda feel you don't even believe that linked read either an d are faking that too

[Kyoko Kirigiri]

Also how this means he';s going to push gimli later on?

I don't want to interfere with your likely TvT but fuyuhiko is actually scumreading me afaict and I completely expect him to push me later on for being harsh and unfair to Wednesday, like he sort of did already.

Pedit: I'll go over maki and bianco in a bit. Re: roleplay, nothing is 100% just roleplay, when the game is going, I don't think.

I don't see him setting reads up at the moment.

I need to have flip information to even think of such possibilities. I don't know how you think he might be doing such, when you don't know what Wednesday might flip?

[Kyoko Kirigiri]

I don't see it nor I townread what Wednesday is doing for it. It is self-centered but I am not convinced its genuine. The reaction feels forced. Specially when she tried to react the same way to my read and vote on her too to act as she is consistent and its a play style thing. I feel like her over reaction is actually fabricated.

regardless, back to kuzo: I don't see Kuzo's treatment of gimli/wednsday as alarming or in any way a logical contradiction as people are suggesting. He can think gimli's push on Wednesday wasn't good, while still scumreading Wednesday. specially since his vote on Wednesday is for something entirely different. Or maybe I'm missing something major here?

biancospino's latest post is extremely opportunistic though, voting with the general flow of game without adding anything while keeping next options open

[Kyoko Kirigiri]

But isn't putting people on the spot to see what sticks, a good way to solve the mysteries?

I actually find it quite fascinating how someone can see the same thing I see and get a completely opposite impression than me about that action or reaction. This further proves that no action or reaction is inherently towny or scummy and only if you see the whole sequence of them, you can draw conclusions about the motivations.

What do you mean exactly about my personality btw?

Let's start with this, putting people on the spot to see what sticks, in the way you're wording it in and of itself is fine. But, you're not looking at it in a proper way. Kuzu is trying to see what sticks, but not in a way of just pushing something for the sake of it to get attention on a slot. What they're doing is pushing Wednesday and Fur, trying to call them wolves and push them over. It's two very different lines of play, and when you look at Kuzu's posting, I don't see someone who believes in what they're pushing.

Kuzu seems to just react to things around them and make up something on the spot or adjust their way of thinking vs having a thought out read and thinking they're really scum. Reactive playstyle is fine, but if you look at what they're presenting for logic, it doesn't add up in the slightest. It's a made up worldview.

You've already proven you're pretty gung ho with your logic, when you have a theory, or a suspicion you cling to it and show no mercy to your opponent, as a wolf, that would take some level of talent to keep up considering you would know your convictions are incorrect, and the more people you push the worse it would look for you. I'm saying if you ever take a backseat, it'd look off.

You can look at that as some dirty assassin trick to get you to push people more, but that's just how I see it.

However I like this post a lot, I can see the "reactionary/on the spot read making" thing you're mentioning in kuzos behavior when I read their iso too. I just can't find the logical paradoxes that everyone else seems to be seeing.

Also about being gung ho with logic and showing no mercy, and the dirty assassin tricks. If you spend all your time trying to avoid danger, you'll never move forward. You have to push people so their shells break and you get more content to work with. This is why we need to investigate this from every angle and not let the culprits hide in the shadowy corners.

Guess that is very similar to an assassin tactic.

[Kyoko Kirigiri]

I'm not entirely sure bianco being undecisive and all over the place is actually "Scum indicative".

I don't see it

@Kokichi, unless the RVS banter is AI for std for some meta reason, which I don't know, that's the only post you may be referring to on page 1.
Now, Fuyuhiko's motivation for their (I presume) non-RVS vote is indeed pretty evident, so not to see it may be a little weird -- so I guess it may just be a very soft pocketing (or a very soft attempt to detract the real vote placed on his undeadbuddy, though frankly I would think doing such a thing, with that intention, barely out of RVS when there's no actual indication that relieving pressure would be necessary, has very little to no benefit and would risk outing one's buddy, so I'd be cautioned to exclude this hypotesys).

Though frankly, idk, it's not like it's so glaring that I'm convinced it's so. If we're looking at pocketing attempts, I'd even say that Gimli's joking about Wednesday is more emotionally significant to the parts involved (though, again, it may just be an interpersonal meta thing, which I wouldn't know about).

I have to things to mention regarding this post.

I don't follow the assumptions about how mentioning "Wednesday" was emotional/pocketing or in any way sus. It just was a non-game-related poke at a great username on first page of a mafia game with no game related content to discuss.

the second thing is that this post is actually filled with assumptions and no conclusions. For example in the first paragraph, you're assuming Kokichi is actually having a reason to sus STD and he is not aiming to find a reaction and make progress which is the point of RVS. Secondly you're assuming that Fuyuhiko's vote was serious. His intentions to vote is not yet clear by any means as we have to wait and see where he is going with that line of thought. secondly, you say voting for them might be a "soft pocketing". Is this based on some previous interaction between those two slots in another game? If not how you concluded that his aggressive reaction and vote is an instance of pocketing? and then you add another hypothesis and say it's to redirect attention. Why would he - assuming he is up for no good - would want to redirect people's attention away from his previous RVS vote on page 1?

All these assumptions, told out loud, don't seem to be coming up from a game-solving perspective. Its more like putting events the way you want them to be for your goal rather than finding that goal. All that being said the way you caught up on these two pages, it looks like shading and for that, I'll put my first FOS on you.

VOTE: biancospino



pedit. And I found my first town read.

What I said here still stands and is also applicable to his later post. it's too much of nothing he is adding and too much of everything at the same time and he doesn't want to focus on directions. Is like how a life guard is watching everyone swimming without jumping in the water.

That action in itself is inherently scum-motivated and I mean it's something you would expect scum to do more often. but in biancospino's case, he seems to be doing it constantly and without fail even after being called out for it that doesn't seem intentional and calculated. It just feels like how he plays the game.

Now again, he did something specifically scummy, however:

VOTE: Kuzu

He was drawing a conclusion from your post that wasn’t really there. I’ll admit I’m saying something similar but mine is more reasoned than his, as I see it he just saw one comment of yours and jumped you for it.

Since you’re currently voting me, why do you even take issue with that? If you really think I’m scum here, you shouldn’t be sussing him for that because that really only makes sense if you think he’s town and I’m scum. Unless I’m missing something about the setup which I actually haven’t paid much attention to thus far, this makes absolutely no sense.

I think it’s scummy that you both think I’m scum and was also being browbeaten and you’re stating that much more strongly than STD did.

Because if you’re town it’s sketchy from Gimli that he’s reacting so harshly to fairly normal posts.
You just also come across as sketchy in your own right. Doesn’t mean I shouldn’t ask other questions.

While I'm not actually in full agreement with Wednesday that it's impossible for one to be both scum and '''browbeaten''' (and multiple quotations are needed here), I'm with her that Kuzu's treatment of the issue has been weird.

It makes to sense to see the browbeating as a reason to see her as scum, and while I appreciate that Kuzu maintains to find Wednesday sus regardless of that, he did make a bigger deal than necessary of it.

Which is weird,

since to me it would appear to incriminate Gimli more than Wednesday

, but the kept arguing about that with her, and keeping his vote on her.

It did paint the picture that Gimli/Wednesday should not be considered TvT

; I don't actually find it convincing, but I suppose it could be setting the stage to link miselims.

I'm gonna bold some stuff there.

Look at the first bold sentence. It comes more likely from an informed point of view as it has phrases like "It makes no sense" "while I appreciate that Kuzu" and "he did make a bigger deal than necessary"

Now why these suggest he has informed point of view? Someone who is figuring things out, would not be analyzing the percentage of something making sense or not cause they should be uncertain of everything. I might be failing in explaining what I mean here but, him appreciating kuzu suggests he actually has an idea what alignment kuzu is and whats his actual objective when he does his stuff and that he is not analyzing the action itself but is judging the action based on his knowledge about kuzu's alignment.

And again on next sentence, he is saying the reason kuzo was using would make more sense if he was using it to push gimli than Wednesday - not that it doesn't make sense to push Wednesday with. so he is rating kuzus push based on his knowledge about kuzus motivation (cause it seems he already knows about it)

"It did paint the picture" and "should not be considered TvT". How is kuzo's push on Wednesday means gimli/wedsnday are not TvT? it means kuzo finds at least one of the pair scummy but it doesn't paints the picture for the entire thread. again he is talking about kuzos objective as he is seeing it through an informed lense.

So I find that post and his jump (with the flow of game against kuzo) extremely sus and opportunistic and I find his positioning when doing this alarming.

That being said I support a wagon on him.

[Kyoko Kirigiri]

No teamwork or attempt to reach a middle ground, you people are so stubborn. What an annoying mess to deal with, it's like you're not even trying. I'd be pretty shocked if Gimi/Furt/Wed were wolves, if you wish to disprove me of that, it's on you.

wouldn't you say you might be the stubborn one if you're not going to consider the reads against those slots? XD

Instead of seizing on one viewpoint, the truth is uncovered by analyzing things from every angle. It's good that we're pushing from different angles. Each person needs to come to their own conclusions so that everyone can have confidence in the outcome.

[Kyoko Kirigiri]

I don't have tunnel vision. I'm pretty open to changing my read on your slot.

Regardless I still think your reaction to being voted was fake in both instances so I'm still voting for you.

Let's give me more reasons to town read you then if you're part of town. Can you write two sentences for each of your reads so we can start from there?

[Kyoko Kirigiri]

No teamwork or attempt to reach a middle ground, you people are so stubborn. What an annoying mess to deal with, it's like you're not even trying. I'd be pretty shocked if Gimi/Furt/Wed were wolves, if you wish to disprove me of that, it's on you.

wouldn't you say you might be the stubborn one if you're not going to consider the reads against those slots? XD

Instead of seizing on one viewpoint, the truth is uncovered by analyzing things from every angle. It's good that we're pushing from different angles. Each person needs to come to their own conclusions so that everyone can have confidence in the outcome.

I'm inviting you to prove me wrong, isn't that what you want? I have a strong townread on all the people in question, and if you want me to vote them then tell me why I'm doing so incorrectly. It goes without saying I've looked at every person in two lights.

Everyone has there own viewpoint, but if you let things go down to compromise, having a team of three working together is going to lead to a bad outcome. Unless, you think the main talking points today have been on all wolves? That seems highly unlikely.

Of course, I don't.

I really think the reasons mentioned by people for town reads on Wednesday besides yours which was meta-based are flawed. I can't share your read in this instance as I don't have the meta nor I can verify it.

I'm just saying, I'm open to changing my mind and I wonder if you are too if stronger evidence is presented later that is convicting these people. Just that.

[Kyoko Kirigiri]

No teamwork or attempt to reach a middle ground, you people are so stubborn. What an annoying mess to deal with, it's like you're not even trying. I'd be pretty shocked if Gimi/Furt/Wed were wolves, if you wish to disprove me of that, it's on you.

wouldn't you say you might be the stubborn one if you're not going to consider the reads against those slots? XD

Instead of seizing on one viewpoint, the truth is uncovered by analyzing things from every angle. It's good that we're pushing from different angles. Each person needs to come to their own conclusions so that everyone can have confidence in the outcome.

I'm inviting you to prove me wrong, isn't that what you want? I have a strong townread on all the people in question, and if you want me to vote them then tell me why I'm doing so incorrectly. It goes without saying I've looked at every person in two lights.

Everyone has there own viewpoint, but if you let things go down to compromise, having a team of three working together is going to lead to a bad outcome. Unless, you think the main talking points today have been on all wolves? That seems highly unlikely.

Of course, I don't.

I really think the reasons mentioned by people for town reads on Wednesday besides yours which was meta-based are flawed. I can't share your read in this instance as I don't have the meta nor I can verify it.

I'm just saying, I'm open to changing my mind and I wonder if you are too if stronger evidence is presented later that is convicting these people. Just that.

If Wednesday becomes more a wagon, I might go into more detail on my read, but right now I don't really see a reason to do so. Your level of thinking and dissecting a point of view is very methodical. While that has it's own strength, it has glaring downsides as well. Quite frankly, me proving you they're town isn't at the top of my list.

Considering a lot of the main topic for votes is one person we both townread and scumread respectively, that seems like the more pressing topic, wouldn't you agree? Although, I don't know if I should keep talking about Kuzu, it seems like beating a dead horse.

That is fair

What do you think about my latest post about biancospino?

[Kyoko Kirigiri]

Alright, guess you don't see it the same way. But I really think with like 60% confidence that the way he phrased things carefully, suggests he actually knows Kuzu's alignment and his intentions/or him not having one.

It seems he wants to agree with him, yet vote with him blaming he is "painting a TvT as a pair with scum", yet he should not have any idea it is a TvT in the first place.

I honestly think it's potentially a mindset slip and inconsistency.

[Kyoko Kirigiri]

if im using my magic gut it's kyoko

but i dunno it could just be heartburn

It's fine if you scum-read me as long as you present arguments that we can work with to sort your slot and mine in the process.

[Kyoko Kirigiri]

I don't have tunnel vision. I'm pretty open to changing my read on your slot.

Regardless I still think your reaction to being voted was fake in both instances so I'm still voting for you.

Let's give me more reasons to town read you then if you're part of town. Can you write two sentences for each of your reads so we can start from there?

I never ever fake my emotions and I only get called “fake” and “forced” as town and ironically more often than not by very bad town. Although I have been shitpushed by scum with that as well but scum usually find something sillier than you did.

Is fine if you think I'm bad. I want your "very good" opinions listed to understand your vision better. Can you please help with that?

[Kyoko Kirigiri]

Maybe first explain to me why you’re reading what I said as “forced” or “faked” because that really doesn’t make much sense to me but I have gotten told that before but honestly no idea why?

So if you’re scumreading my playstyle - looks like - not sure you won’t read all of my posts that way, right?

So you’re going to have to come up with something beyond “forced” or “fake” if you want to engage with me further.

I obviously can’t explain to you why this is wrong.

As for reads, I’ve already given plenty in my iso.

I think furtive, Gimli, Maki are town. I’m the most up in the air wrt to Kuzo and Bianco. Penguin’s a complete null to me right now.

Its because I don't think you actually think he is scum for it. you were voting the slot before he voted you and mentioned he is doing it for another reason, yet you went on forward to even say its a 1v1.

later when I voted you, you repeated same pattern saying you think I might be scum for it as well and not just that, you even tried to link me to kuzu and went on ahead to put the reads like a domino as one will grant the other, even though they were completely unrelated.

Or the line about "I'm obvious town"

It's just way too self-centered and over-reactionary about getting voted that it doesn't look real. That plus how self-aware you are when doing it, it feels like you just want to

appear like this

to support a past trend of behavior that you had elsewhere when pushed to make people read you as town.

That's why I think it's fake and forced and why I scum-read you currently

Now can you please share your vision about the your reads in the game?

[Kyoko Kirigiri]

Think Suichi is really town. @Bianco, can you explain why you’re doing this percentage thing and can you link any other games where you’ve done it before? I would check but the new formatting only lists users’ posts not topics so is a bitch to figure out.

No, I can't link to any game for that; I believe I already said it elsewhere, I'm just trying things. And it's not a percentage or anything, I'm just giving out quarters, not arbitrary values. In my mind it's exactly the same as doing +/++/+++/++++.

While I'm not actually in full agreement with Wednesday that it's impossible for one to be both scum and '''browbeaten''' (and multiple quotations are needed here), I'm with her that Kuzu's treatment of the issue has been weird. It makes to sense to see the browbeating as a reason to see her as scum, and while I appreciate that Kuzu maintains to find Wednesday sus regardless of that, he did make a bigger deal than necessary of it.
Which is weird, since to me it would appear to incriminate Gimli more than Wednesday, but the kept arguing about that with her, and keeping his vote on her. It did paint the picture that Gimli/Wednesday should not be considered TvT; I don't actually find it convincing, but I suppose it could be setting the stage to link miselims.

@kioko, I didn't, anywhere in this post or elsewhere,

assert that G/W is actually TvT

, or that I strongly believe it to be so; I did just say that I'm not convinced it is not, and that I don't like how Kuzu's posting left me with the impression they was trying to strongly characterize G/W's interaction as not being so, for what I believe to be spurious reasons that I believe could possibly be fabrications. Why is that an indication that I must have been operating off an informed prospective eludes me.

(also, I believe you misunderstood me when I said "appreciate that Kuzu mantains ...". I was not intending to say that I do

like

that, just that I rekon that it is so; I also believed that that usage was pretty evident from context, but clearly it was not, apologies)

@mods, V/LA till 28/Jan

yes, exactly. You didn't assert that it was a TvT but you asserted that Kuzu was trying to paint that pair that it has at least one scum.

Now if you don't know whether the pair is TvT or not, how is that different in any way from having a suspicion against literally anyone in the game? If I scum-read you, isn't it me trying to say there is scum between you + anyone else in the game?

Now you using this as the reason why kuzu is scum suggests you actually know the alignments of the pair and his real motivation behind casting that suspicion.

That's what I'm saying mainly. Am I wrong with understanding what you meant?

[Kyoko Kirigiri]

Maybe first explain to me why you’re reading what I said as “forced” or “faked” because that really doesn’t make much sense to me but I have gotten told that before but honestly no idea why?

So if you’re scumreading my playstyle - looks like - not sure you won’t read all of my posts that way, right?

So you’re going to have to come up with something beyond “forced” or “fake” if you want to engage with me further.

I obviously can’t explain to you why this is wrong.

As for reads, I’ve already given plenty in my iso.

I think furtive, Gimli, Maki are town. I’m the most up in the air wrt to Kuzo and Bianco. Penguin’s a complete null to me right now.

Its because I don't think you actually think he is scum for it. you were voting the slot before he voted you and mentioned he is doing it for another reason, yet you went on forward to even say its a 1v1.

later when I voted you, you repeated same pattern saying you think I might be scum for it as well and not just that, you even tried to link me to kuzu and went on ahead to put the reads like a domino as one will grant the other, even though they were completely unrelated.

Or the line about "I'm obvious town"

It's just way too self-centered and over-reactionary about getting voted that it doesn't look real. That plus how self-aware you are when doing it, it feels like you just want to

appear like this

to support a past trend of behavior that you had elsewhere when pushed to make people read you as town.

That's why I think it's fake and forced and why I scum-read you currently

Now can you please share your vision about the your reads in the game?

And again, you’re scumreading my playstyle. I do think it’s possible Kuzo could be scum for all of the reasons I stated. Am I certain on that read? Obviously no, far from it but if you’re going to claim that I’m being either “forced”, “fake” or “reactionary” when I know it’s bs, I don’t know how you expect me to engage with any of that.

I cannot explain to you that your entire reason for scumreading me is based off of playstyle and if you’re not understanding why that’s what you’re doing, I don’t see how I can help you with that.

I gave perfectly valid logical reasons for my read. It didn’t - and still doesn’t ftr - make logical sense to me that Kuzo accuses Gimli of “browbeating” me and then votes me but it’s not always easy to differentiate between scummy town and scum and that’s what I’m wrestling with wrt to Kuzo.

I'm not expecting you to engage with any of those. You asked why I scum-read you so I repeated it again. I'm not sure "It's just my playstyle" is a valid defense about the point I made about how you are self-aware and consciously made self-centered reactions to getting voted the way you did. It feels set up.

Anyways what I expect you to do is to engage me with your reads not with my scum read about you. Let's forget that for a bit and talk about solving the rest of the game. can you write 2 sentences about a few slots in the game that you have read on either way?

[Kyoko Kirigiri]

Just testing the bigger avatar

[Kyoko Kirigiri]

I find it interesting that Bianco's wagon gained speed when he is more afk and is now even facing resistance without him appearing in the game at all

He even said he is V/LA for a while so not sure what's the point of this pressure or de-pressuring right now. Like all the previous points I said about the slot stands but the timing of this wagon is weird at the very least.

---------------------

Now last two page interactions, I feel like Kaito is just sheeping the wagon without adding anything to the pressure itself.

and then there's the whole thing about having "caution" with making them claim - not making them claim unless you're ready to eliminate them while he himself is one of the main votes to push him to that stage(?) thing is just doesn't make sense.

@Kaito, hello sir, Would you mind talking to me about your top 3 to top 5 reads in the game a bit? I would like to engage in a conversation with you to understand your current game vision better if you don't mind

[Kyoko Kirigiri]

Wrt bianco's wagon: it has been going on and off since the beginning of the game, with Shuichi and kirigiri being the first people to go there. The resistance to it, reads wise, came from a single player, furtive, who is afaict the only one vocal about bianco being town here. The other resistance came from STD unvoting, something I don't think he does as scum here unless he is scum with bianco, since the elim could go through and it would be my fault for ending the game earlier by E-1ing when NM is in the game. Depending on the flip I could look horrible, suggesting a claim and then stimulating an elimination.

Both players resisting the elimination are town, I think. I'm not townreading much of anything STD posts, but clearly I don't have a good grasp of how he plays, and the unvote was protown and it's the sort of protown thing that never gives people town points. So... Maybe the wolves are fine with this going through? Or maybe they're in the background, but are not the people slowing down the wagon imo.

My post wasn't about who did the pressure or de-pressure it was about when it's happening. I don't think this wagon is doing its job now that the slot is in VL/A

Also am way more uneasy about the way the wagon was formed than the people who wanted to stop it (in case of std not sure if there is any logic there besides his casual vote hoping that he seems to be doing all game)

Regardless I'm curious about why you voted bianco yourself?

[Kyoko Kirigiri]

Are they hammered? Can we have an updated vote count?

[Kyoko Kirigiri]

this might come back and bite me depending on the flip, but I can't help but feel uneasy about the wagon that was formed, even if it was against one of my main suspects in this day phase.

guess we'll see soon

[Kyoko Kirigiri]

This went way better than how I was scaring myself from around the end of that day phase.

VOTE: Kaito Momota

My hunch says this was a bus by kaito

[Kyoko Kirigiri]

This went way better than how I was scaring myself from around the end of that day phase.

VOTE: Kaito Momota

My hunch says this was a bus by kaito

So early? I don’t think so, unless there’s a good reason for it.

there were so many people scum-reading biancospino. the wagon had tension and it was building up again. there were strong voices against the slot and he wasn't doing much.

I think they didn't think it will end with an early hammer so voted for them and then tried to hit break on wagon saying people shouldn't vote it unless if they think they are ready to get them eliminated with a vt claim.

that was so out of place otherwise

[Kyoko Kirigiri]

Bianco didn't have tension and wasn't building up until after I voted for them.

I respectfully disagree

[Kyoko Kirigiri]

I think I am not capable of reading STD and that I hope they are dead before game goes for long so I don't have to.

Bianco was one of my strongest scum reads in all the duration of day 1 (it reduced for a period but I found something other that was sus with them). many other but saihara was also scumreading that slot. kaito was not the "first one who took notice of it" he went along with it, didn't add anything to it and tried to hit the break on it at the same time. All at a very weird timing when bianco was afk himself.

biancospino (7): PenguinPower, Kaito Momota, Wednesday Addams, Save The Dragons, Gimli, Saihara Shuichi, Kokichi Oma

This was what got him eliminated with me having first ever vote on slot and then unvoting to vote Wednesday midday.

I think all this wagon does is make me think the last votes on the target were town that means I feel better about you and kokichi cause of the wagon. Also I found Wednesday vote quite towny (she also called kaito out at same time period)

I highly suspect kaito wanted to distance from bianco scum reads which were posted several times by me and Saihara when he voted the slot and didn't think that tension would end up in getting them hammered = so he couldn't have considerations about how getting them eliminated could hurt their group cause NM was also a scum

[Kyoko Kirigiri]

Bianco didn't have tension and wasn't building up until after I voted for them.

I respectfully disagree

Can you point it out?

there are like 20 points about bianco scum reads by me and saihara before you voted. You didn't vote to get an elimination wagon. It was to go along the scum read on your friend.

[Kyoko Kirigiri]

I did vote bianco, voted wedbsday and still pushed bianco. I wasnt a fan of the way wagon got momentum when he went vla but he was my top scumread

[Kyoko Kirigiri]

Im not a fan of hammering early but i was always happy with the wagon being on bianco.

I called out both the votes and unvotes on him and explained why the preassure and depressure at that time was wierd not the wagon itself.

I think kaito was bussing though

[Kyoko Kirigiri]

He didnt think it will end with a hammer when he voted he was one of early votes on someone almost all town was scum reading.

He just sheeped the flow and was then asking others to not vote in case were sure we will elim them regardless of their claim.

Thats such a wierd worry for a town mindset who was voting himself

[Kyoko Kirigiri]

We have strong town reads right now based on what happened and current elims. We need to go for elim as if we kill scum we win and if we don't we'll reduce the suspected player base count so our power roles can clear the rest if possible.

Not going for elim right now where we have such a huge advantage gives us nothing.

[Kyoko Kirigiri]

I am town reading furtive gimli wednsday and kokichi STD on next tier

We can all tell our town reads and work on PoE. We have a lot of information based on the events that happened in day 1 to sort this based on. Why would we want to skip?

[Kyoko Kirigiri]

During Night 0, the undead will be informed of which PRs the village has access to (but not how many of each role). They will then choose which roles they wish to purchase.

yeah

and they purchased a role blocker and a role cop. We had a JOAT so far

whats so important about that info that needed bolding by you?

[Kyoko Kirigiri]

Ok

so scum has Vampire - 2pts (Roleblocker) and Witch - 1pt (Rolecop) . that's 3 points
the town has 6 points total: Witch Hunter - 2pts (JOAT with 1-shot cop, vig, and tracker, 20%), another Witch Hunter - 2pts (JOAT with 1-shot cop, vig, and tracker, 20%)
that's 4 points

So only way this is possible is if we have NO other power role and Fuyuhiko is not a cop and is another witch hunter

Otherwise fuyuhiko and kaito know they have a guilty on each other.


-------------------

No here is my theory

what if kaito just made a gambit with this claim and Saihara was the one who killed NM?

[Kyoko Kirigiri]

I think mass claiming right now might be a good idea. We already have 1 power role dead and 2 other claimed so there cant be any other power role if all claims are legit.

so if they are legit we instantly have 3 clears and will loose nothing cause they already are claimed.
and if they arent legit we will have a very limited suspect pool to choose from and its secured win.

[Kyoko Kirigiri]

UNVOTE: for now till we discuss this

But I'm sooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo.......ooooooooooooo leaning on kaito making a gambit and claiming the kill assuming saihiro was the one who shot him

He has no other play if he is scum.

[Kyoko Kirigiri]

Wouldn't that be game throwing if he's a wolf? Because he'd know the points don't add up.

Again he claimed right before fuyuhiko

it would give his claim legitimacy if saihiro was the killer cause he is dead now and we couldn't prove or disprove it.

Its just looks like the last attempt of a scum to stay in game to me. claiming they shot the other scum when they saw the town joat who could do this is dead

but lets see if points actually add up or not

[Kyoko Kirigiri]

Considering I'm already clear from Kuzu, I suppose me outting doesn't matter.

I'm claiming PR.

HAHA

So fuyu maki can only be legit if kaito is lying.

There is 1 guaranteed scum between you three or am I reading this wrong?

[Kyoko Kirigiri]

ok Im back here

VOTE: Kaito

[Kyoko Kirigiri]

fuyu maki cant be a scum pair. cause they both cant be scum - we only have 1 scum left. that means maki is always clear.

the scum is always between fuyu and kaito. this means either fuyu faked a clear to act as a PR for no reason or kaito lies about the role they claimed they are and they claimed the dead town doing as their own to buy last min credit.

[Kyoko Kirigiri]

Also, we can definitely rule out the possibility of scum choosing fewer points deliberately.

They had a mafia goon. 100% they only had the 3 points as they could just drop another role cop on him otherwise.

[Kyoko Kirigiri]

@Gimili (as you're my makoto in this game) please go over the case one more time and explain what happened so everyone can come to the same conclusions

[Kyoko Kirigiri]

@kaito please show us your e-handbook. and I've lost it is not an excuse you can use!



(role-playing right now ignore me lmao)

[Kyoko Kirigiri]

He's not someone I can really doubt, so I'll bow out of this one.

Protect against deception, and never allow others to read your emotions. And whoever stands before you, don't let them push you around. Remember that.

[Kyoko Kirigiri]

@Gimili (as you're my makoto in this game) please go over the case one more time and explain what happened so everyone can come to the same conclusions

there's a slim chance scum used less points than they could've and everyone is telling the truth, right?

And they chose goon over another rolecop? Nah

[Kyoko Kirigiri]

They are confirmed scum. There is no way their claim is true. Did you read

[Kyoko Kirigiri]

All our PRs are claimed anyway

we don't elim so scum can kill them?

what result are you looking for exactly that you get with no elim?

[Kyoko Kirigiri]

he clearly claimed PR and he did so cause he was caught otherwise.

We have 4 PR claims today. fuyuhiko you and maki + Kaito

kaito doesn't fit in, in any scenario. unless if you saying you maki fuyu don't make sense point-wise either then it will go back to why fuyu would fake a clean on maki out of nowhere

Why would he fake claim PR risking the actual pr's to out themself just to absorb a night kill? I see only possible motivation he could have to gambit and try and claim credit cause he saw a dead scum and a dead vig and tried to claim credit for it.

I'm 99% sure kaito will flip red and the game is done.

[Kyoko Kirigiri]

I'm actual PR. This quick hammer was suspect. Clearly Kaito wasnt actually claiming PR but trying to bait kill from mafia.

I'm also a PR

Now we have 5 pr claims and they keep counting!

[Kyoko Kirigiri]

I can't believe maki lied. Her lie made kaito a confirmed scum and got them killed. That was the most worst possible play she could have done ....

I'm actually so salty

[Kyoko Kirigiri]

why is kokichi town?

he was on a high horse yesterday blaming us even before the flip as he knew this would happen. who will assume maki lied there instantly without having more info about the setup?

[Kyoko Kirigiri]

biancospino (7): PenguinPower, Kaito Momota, Wednesday Addams, Save The Dragons, Gimli, Saihara Shuichi, Kokichi Oma <==HAMMER

But then he hammered bianco...

I honestly don't know

Furitive was also off that wagon entirely

[Kyoko Kirigiri]

biancospino (7):

PenguinPower

, Kaito Momota,

Wednesday Addams

,

Save The Dragons

,

Gimli

, Saihara Shuichi, Kokichi Oma <==HAMMER

Kaito Momota (6):

PenguinPower

, Kyoko Kirigiri, furtiveglance,

Wednesday Addams

,

Gimli

,

Save The Dragons

<==HAMMER

I know the second wagon was on town but I think the people who voted both are clear (maybe beside penguin cause always first vote and mostly afk during days) because this was a genuine solving attempt.

So based on these wagons, if furitive is not scum, then scum was hard bussing bianco day 1. I suspect penguin and Wednesday cause of earlier votes more if you just focus on the wagon, but I think Wednesday is towny and honestly idk about penguin. by play kokichi seems more

You can also sus me here, I don't mind. but I was on bianco all day 1 just didn't end up voting them cause of the fast way you pushed the wagon when he went vla when we also had time in day. You went for elim when I wasn't around but whatever. But I was pushing that slot hard all day. I'm fine being in POE pool at this point of game But I'm not scum.

[Kyoko Kirigiri]

I'll wait for Maki. She'll probably know by now

I should be town by the way I played yesterday.

And I trust her judgement to find last maf.

Please let's not elim anyone until there is more talk from everyone so we can figure this out

SHE PLAYED HORRIBLY. LIKE AWFUL. That was the worst town play I ever saw in my life in any mafia game. knowing she is hard-cleared right now makes me furious.

Your play was also horrible unless

you knew she was playing horribly

so stop being proud of your horrible play if you're town.

[Kyoko Kirigiri]

If people would not lie there and would just claim normal after kaito and fuyuhiko claimed, we would have 2 clear power roles who were both already claimed (I asked for the mass claim after the two claimed)

we would not have kaito killed and at least one would get their pr action in.

further more we would be working outside of the cleared people pool (it was 3 - kaito fuyuhiko and maki) and we would catch a scum possibly likely with us having such a hard core town block which were cleared by actions and claims.

BUT NO

she has to claim PR and get kaito elimmed for a night kill absorb gambit?

That was the most dumb play ever

Who let town to lie like that in a way that would get another town pr elimmed? This is the worst play ever

end of rant. I'll stay salty till end of game. lets be done with this

[Kyoko Kirigiri]

I'll wait for Maki. She'll probably know by now

I should be town by the way I played yesterday.

And I trust her judgement to find last maf.

Please let's not elim anyone until there is more talk from everyone so we can figure this out

SHE PLAYED HORRIBLY. LIKE AWFUL. That was the worst town play I ever saw in my life in any mafia game. knowing she is hard-cleared right now makes me furious.

Your play was also horrible unless

you knew she was playing horribly

so stop being proud of your horrible play if you're town.

You all quick voted without giving Maki or Kaito time to talk again. It could have been sorted which is why I said to wait. Also trust, if you think I'm being elim'd this game, then you'd be elim'd over me.

she was chatting with me as I was explaining why her claim made him 100% scum. She could have clarified right then

kaito's elim is 100% on maki I don't care if she does this everytime

and I could not have envisioned she is actually throwing the game by fake claiming something that would mean another PR claimer is guilty. I can't understand how anyone would see that coming like you did. That was just pure horrible play and there is no other way to describe it.

[Kyoko Kirigiri]

I think Shuichi and Kaito both vigged N_M which is actually pretty funny.

N_M is vigbait

I didn't want to bring it up yesterday cause I know it would make you all sus Kaito even more, but yeah kinda funny.

I also saw that which is why I had the theory kaito is telling lies.

and then maki claimed the way she did

and then it was confirmed he is telling lies

...

How did you see this and still thaught maki lied?

[Kyoko Kirigiri]

I think Shuichi and Kaito both vigged N_M which is actually pretty funny.

N_M is vigbait

I didn't want to bring it up yesterday cause I know it would make you all sus Kaito even more, but yeah kinda funny.

I also saw that which is why I had the theory kaito is telling lies.

and then maki claimed the way she did

and then it was confirmed he is telling lies

...

How did you see this and still thaught maki lied?

Because it's a standard play on other sites to do this. A clear townie roleswaps to protect the PR

Her fake claim made Kaito mechanically confirmed scum

As a cleared player that was the most stupid thing to do since she knew she is not a pr and kaito might be telling the truth.

Is it standard play to mechanically confirm others as guilty with a fake claim?


also kokichis claim did absolutely no harm. it was a gambit to draw night kill from fuyu maybe and was a fine play. what I have issues with is how he "knew" kaito is town and telling the truth. but I have less issues with that now that he is talking and claiming he knew maki's meta.

still I'm really salty about that whole thing

[Kyoko Kirigiri]

but i wanna look at a certain 208 a little closer

Wednesday - my read is town. Bianco's read is 0.5 scum. conclusion -> trying to mislim.
STD - my role is town. Bianco's read is 0.75 scum. conclusion -> trying to mislim.
Penguin - my read is now ???. Bianco's 0.25 town. conclusion -> trying to hide potential partner.
furtive - my read is potential scum. Bianco forgot to tally. conclusion -> maybe bianco would tally their partner.
Gimli - my read is probably town????? Bianco has them at .75 scum. Conclusion -> maybe trying to mislim.
kokichi -> my read is town. Bianco's read is 1.25 town. Conclusion -> bianco's was pretending to tr kokichi correctly.
shuichi -> was town. Bianco's read is 1+ town. Conclusion -> Bianco's was pretending to tr shuichi correctly.
kyoko .-> i'm conflicted. Bianco's read is 1.5+ town. Conclusion -> bianco was probably pretending to tr kyoko correctly.
fuyuhiko -> was town. Bianco's read is 0.5 town. Conclusion -> bianco was pretending to tr fuyuhiko correctly.
others
kaito and NM are dead. if i looked at this post i probably wouldn't have assumed bianco put both partners in the others category. oops.

is this you trying to use someone else's post to express what you think about all slots?

basically justifying your own reads based on someone else's read list.

This actually needs a word tbh.

[Kyoko Kirigiri]

in a glance, last scum should be in:

furtiveglance or one of biancos earlier voters such as penguin, Wedsnday, STD

I feel better about kokichi after his today posts saying he knew maki was faking it yesterday based on meta and I think gimli kokichi are town here and hopefully I'm not deep pocketed

we have 7 town and 1 scum, no PR role matters anymore. just gotta not f it up for three day phases and we still win regardless of what happened in last day phase so lets focus on making good PoEs and get this done properly

[Kyoko Kirigiri]

Have you never seen someone look at a scum post and try to find their partners

your post is a bunch of "I think this, they said this so it means they wanted that"

for every slot. If its a genuine hunting, its flawed cause you're explaining their actions based on your reads while you should have made those reads based on their action.

[Kyoko Kirigiri]

in a glance, last scum should be in:

furtiveglance or one of biancos earlier voters such as penguin, Wedsnday, STD

I feel better about kokichi after his today posts saying he knew maki was faking it yesterday based on meta and I think gimli kokichi are town here and hopefully I'm not deep pocketed

we have 7 town and 1 scum, no PR role matters anymore. just gotta not f it up for three day phases and we still win regardless of what happened in last day phase so lets focus on making good PoEs and get this done properly

You are literally the only one here who can’t tell I’m town, so no we’re not listening to you.

I was just explaining the PoE based on that wagon. Never said I think you're the scum in there.

[Kyoko Kirigiri]

both pp and furtive agree with the thread consensus of themselves + STD

STD has been the only player afaict who tried to widen that POE

+ still fakesolving as kyoko just pointed out

VOTE: STD

Disagree because I had a similar take just didn’t get around to posting it, so I don’t understand what Kyoko’s referring to.

Is it possible you could be possibly scumread STD’s playstyle because I really don’t understand why he’s scum? Also how is he “fake solving” do you think?

I guess Kyoko’s take on that makes 0 sense to me?

but i wanna look at a certain 208 a little closer

Wednesday - my read is town. Bianco's read is 0.5 scum. conclusion -> trying to mislim.
STD - my role is town. Bianco's read is 0.75 scum. conclusion -> trying to mislim.
Penguin - my read is now ???. Bianco's 0.25 town. conclusion -> trying to hide potential partner.
furtive - my read is potential scum. Bianco forgot to tally. conclusion -> maybe bianco would tally their partner.
Gimli - my read is probably town????? Bianco has them at .75 scum. Conclusion -> maybe trying to mislim.
kokichi -> my read is town. Bianco's read is 1.25 town. Conclusion -> bianco's was pretending to tr kokichi correctly.
shuichi -> was town. Bianco's read is 1+ town. Conclusion -> Bianco's was pretending to tr shuichi correctly.
kyoko .-> i'm conflicted. Bianco's read is 1.5+ town. Conclusion -> bianco was probably pretending to tr kyoko correctly.
fuyuhiko -> was town. Bianco's read is 0.5 town. Conclusion -> bianco was pretending to tr fuyuhiko correctly.
others
kaito and NM are dead. if i looked at this post i probably wouldn't have assumed bianco put both partners in the others category. oops.

for example:
"kokichi -> my read is town. Bianco's read is 1.25 town. Conclusion -> bianco's was pretending to tr kokichi correctly."

It has 3 parts

"my read is town"
"bianco said he is 1.25 town"
conclusion: "bianco's was pretending to tr kokichi correctly"

all those reads are basically his own reads. he didn't get a take from biancos reads. he just tried to justify biancos read list shape with his own reads.

which as I said is a flawed progression if the attempt is real

[Kyoko Kirigiri]

basically all the reads are like that

part 1: what std thinks
part 2: what bianco's read was
conclusion: explaining what bianco was doing if what std thinks is true.

it basically is a way to tell his own reads. what bianco's read were are not used to draw any conclusions there or to generate any kind of solving

[Kyoko Kirigiri]

My issue right now is, his push on me earlier on day phase felt genuine somewhat. It could have been scum trying to widen poe pool as gimli said but I'm feeling a bit uneasy right now...

I guess I want std more than furitive though. but penguin and std around same rate.

[Kyoko Kirigiri]

if you dont infer anything from what bianco did, then what was the point of even mentioning what he did. he basically gave us his own read list and then translated biancos read list based on it

scum hunting would be using biancos read list to infer something and making his own readlist.

that's completely vice versa

[Kyoko Kirigiri]

like let me explain this simpler

I think STD didn't infer anything from biancos read list. Him mentioning the read list was complete busy work. He gave us his own reads though there and then just added biancos read next to it for no reason.

Now I didnt say it was neccessirly a scum doing it. I'm just saying its not how you scum hunt cause its not.

you infer something from what happened and make reads. you don't make reads and try to justify other actions if those reads are true. if its a real scum hunting attempt its flawed.

making more sense?

[Kyoko Kirigiri]

I dont know how else can I rephrase it so I hope that makes sense

[Kyoko Kirigiri]

yeah whatever really.

Whats your PoE looking like? who you think is last scum?

[Kyoko Kirigiri]

thats @maki

[Kyoko Kirigiri]

@wednsday I mean

[Kyoko Kirigiri]

prod dodge is a busy time right now. I'll check game more thoroughly tonight instead

[Kyoko Kirigiri]

Do me a favor please and reread Suichi’s interactions with furtive about bianco readslist and tell me what you think.

I see what you mean. page 22/23 are interesting. I completely forgot didn't just abanden voting for bianco, they actually went and pushed against the saihiro case and called the numbered reads decisive.

that's actually a hard defending and a total redirect of attention toward fuyuhiko at end.

I specifically scum read this in that interaction:

How in the fuck is an arbitrary number of 0.75+ scum conclusive? That's not even a full number

SOMETIMES THEY GIVE OUT 0.25

That stroke me as over top reaction

[Kyoko Kirigiri]

but would a scum white knight scum buddy that hard right after case was presented?

Still furitive has to die. He is literally on top of the poe based on bianco

[Kyoko Kirigiri]

I actually town read STDs attempt of solving/explaining/evolving his reads today

I don't know what I think about penguin tbh. I genuinely cant find anything towny or scummy there. the vote on bianco was rvs but him sticking to it during day and hoping back on it when he got cased again was actually towny imo

pedit: you can't end game this. you were all over the place trying to stop wagon on bianco. lets say scum who was allied with NM and bianco was seeing bianco getting hard pushed. their best bet of keeping their team alive was redirecting attention to another wagon cause NM wouldn't last either and bianco was a PR. what you did there is what I expect a normal reaction scum would do.

[Kyoko Kirigiri]

I actually town read STDs attempt of solving/explaining/evolving his reads today

im baffled

I liked how you started the day suspecting me. I didn't like your scum hunt on Bianco readlist nor still like it. but I liked your explanation about it.

I think you were not faking the process.

[Kyoko Kirigiri]

Vote me then. I think town wins anyway

These are very specific choice of words.

are you giving up?

[Kyoko Kirigiri]

I am not. I've been very clear that I think [Penguin, STD] has the last mafia, and I think those two will be voted in the coming days

case them both. which one is more likely scum to you and why? Why everyone else is town to you

make a read list if you can

[Kyoko Kirigiri]

Interesting development.

Whats your take on game

[Kyoko Kirigiri]

I'll read up soon, finally not being in a snowstorm is nice

The only reason I'm not voting is you

give us your reads please ms ultimate child caregiver

[Kyoko Kirigiri]

kokichi you too

give us a read list

[Kyoko Kirigiri]

great

[Kyoko Kirigiri]

VOTE: furtiveglance

[Kyoko Kirigiri]

Gimli just spewed himself town hoping for post-game not realizing penguin unvoted above.

[Kyoko Kirigiri]

actually ignore that. could have been a scum trolling in twilight

not that I scumread gimli but my above post is wrong

[Kyoko Kirigiri]

yeap got it GG everyone!

[Kyoko Kirigiri]

why did scum waste their points?

you could have had 1 extra role cop instead of a goon or to pick in other ways

[Kyoko Kirigiri]

why did scum waste their points?

you could have had 1 extra role cop instead of a goon or to pick in other ways

They couldn't repeat roles, was the problem, while town could.

where was this written in game setup xd