Election! | GAME OVER

[Bingle]

1) tracker isn't really a great role in a large game most of the time so it feels intuitive that most people wouldn't care for it

I agree that tracker isn't particularly strong D1 in this game, although late game tracker may well be a full cop if we don't suck hard.

I disagree that most people would internalize that immediately.

[BloodB0t]

But I also feel like I'm in over my head in such a mech heavy game.

[GuiltyLion]

I don't remember a missed opportunity to opine about scummy slots being thrown into the sherif role for ritual sacrifice. Could you point out where that might have come into play in these mech arguments, and the scummy point where GL neglects to mention this?

@Bingle - did you miss this, were you going to address it? It gets at the fundamental issue I had with your post, namely that your argument for me being scum here consists of constructing an idea of what Town!GL Would Or Should Be Doing, and then saying I'm scummy because I'm not doing that. you make a ton of assumptions with your point
- we can control who we elect to be cop
- scum are likely to fear kill the cop
- therefore, the best use of the cop role is to put someone scummy in there
and biggest of all,
- town!GL would think all of this is true,

and agree with it and behave accordingly

then saying you think I'm scummy cause that didn't happen.

this is not generally how to find mafia, with these types of counterfactuals ("town [x] should do this, they didn't, so they're mafia"), especially when you're not laying out what a hypothetical scum benefit or agenda is to my actions is either. Rather this is how you sell someone as scum, and it feels disingenuous as hell.

Your other points are bad too. I'm approaching mech from "how scum benefits", sure, because I want to minimize the damage scum can do. It's also silly to hand wave that away as NOT thinking about how town benefits - is the implication here that a more pro-town approach to mechanics is going "ooh cop shiny!", or not even questioning players who did that? why?

also noteworthy that you choose to believe I am "playing obtuse" about cop power rather than just disagreeing with you, or hell, even just

being wrong

. Nice way to insert a nefarious motive where none exists.

[GuiltyLion]

UNOwen is town for 222 tho

why

feeling like cakez is townie

i am rapidly losing interest in this phase when i cannot kill anyone yet

@sleepykrew, which people in this game are you familiar with mafia-wise

cause that's specifically the exact type of "lazy townread on a capable player who [is probably actually town but] not at all out of scumrange" read that scum tend to make, and I like that UNOwen picked up on it and called it out.

[GuiltyLion]

also I think Cakez is town as well

more later

[meowth]

What I’m saying is that we should have no issues communicating what the joats can actually achieve to the thread at large and then make the decision of what power gets used or if that decision is made based on how much they cost and what they are. It’s a decision that we’ll have more information on during the elim phase, so we should worry about it in the elim phase.

you dont agree revealing all the joat abilities d1 is bad? but point taken about it making sense to come back to

[BloodB0t]

I've been getting scummy vibes from Bingle.

[meowth]

he's the only candidate for tracker and everyone seems okay with that

im not, i disagree with pooky about controlling candidates at least for this phase. i think forcing people to make a choice is probably good.
but i think its a little early to force people to commit, we can do that closer to deadline

[meowth]

But I also feel like I'm in over my head in such a mech heavy game.

thinking about mech too much is a trap in a shea game anyway

[GuiltyLion]

Actually here's another question for you Bingle

Let's grant you that all of your assumptions are true, that mechanically the optimal use of cop is to put a scummy player in there to force scum's hand at night killing a player that otherwise would be a potential miselim. And let's even grant that most town players would understand and agree with this.

Why then is your focus on me, who questioned the players who leapt at the opportunity to try to be cop, instead of the actual players themselves? Do you think Datisi or Ausuka are traditionally scummy, limbaity players? Are you not frustrated that they've essentially forced your hand at voting Enchant for sheriff? Is that not a pro-scum agenda under your established belief system?

[Bingle]

you dont agree revealing all the joat abilities d1 is bad?

Not at all. We have persistent power roles. Scum can't kill the doc and get rid of the doc power permanently, so hiding that there is a doc doesn't really serve as much of a purpose.

The reasons opens are more townsided than the associated closed setup would be isn't just because of the clearing nature of claims in opens, but also because town simply has more information to go on.

And considering I've reviewed basically all of shea's games for the last 3 years I'm probably the only person who CAN confidently setup spec a shea game.

[Datisi]

how much history is there between bingle/guiltylion? more specifically, is there any history that would make sense for why bingle thinks guiltylion is this sorta mech genius as town or whatever?

[Bingle]

Why then is your focus on me, who questioned the players who leapt at the opportunity to try to be cop, instead of the actual players themselves? Do you think Datisi or Ausuka are traditionally scummy, limbaity players? Are you not frustrated that they've essentially forced your hand at voting Enchant for sheriff? Is that not a pro-scum agenda under your established belief system?

I wouldn't say that Datisi or ausuka are traditionally scummy or limbaity, no. I am not happy that enchant is pretty much our only option for a decent sheriff, no. I don't particularly think that Datisi or Ausuka is mech oriented the same way I remember you being, so I don't think the grab for sheriff is particularly scummy from them, and in fact I'm taking it as very slight evidence of the opposite. A non mech oriented player would be inclined to think jumping after the Sheriff role would be a good way to draw attention, imo.

And my scumread of you isn't that "most players" would understand why manipulation of declarations is a powerful town tool, but that YOU would understand why manipulation of declarations is a powerful town tool.

[SirCakez]

i have no significant read on cakes. he's really enthusiastic about trash i guess which I can appreciate

How do you take that he's the only candidate for tracker and everyone seems okay with that, but all he's doing is posting memes about garbage?

This is a hot misrep

[Bingle]

how much history is there between bingle/guiltylion? more specifically, is there any history that would make sense for why bingle thinks guiltylion is this sorta mech genius as town or whatever?

We played together fairly regularly back when I used to play mafia. I have not played mafia (or any hidden information game) in a year and a half assuming I'm remembering dates right.

[Bingle]

i have no significant read on cakes. he's really enthusiastic about trash i guess which I can appreciate

How do you take that he's the only candidate for tracker and everyone seems okay with that, but all he's doing is posting memes about garbage?

This is a hot misrep

read two posts down.

[Bingle]

@Bingle - did you miss this, were you going to address it? It gets at the fundamental issue I had with your post, namely that your argument for me being scum here consists of constructing an idea of what Town!GL Would Or Should Be Doing, and then saying I'm scummy because I'm not doing that. you make a ton of assumptions with your point
- we can control who we elect to be cop
- scum are likely to fear kill the cop
- therefore, the best use of the cop role is to put someone scummy in there
and biggest of all,
- town!GL would think all of this is true,

and agree with it and behave accordingly

then saying you think I'm scummy cause that didn't happen.

this is not generally how to find mafia, with these types of counterfactuals ("town [x] should do this, they didn't, so they're mafia"), especially when you're not laying out what a hypothetical scum benefit or agenda is to my actions is either. Rather this is how you sell someone as scum, and it feels disingenuous as hell.

Your other points are bad too. I'm approaching mech from "how scum benefits", sure, because I want to minimize the damage scum can do. It's also silly to hand wave that away as NOT thinking about how town benefits - is the implication here that a more pro-town approach to mechanics is going "ooh cop shiny!", or not even questioning players who did that? why?

also noteworthy that you choose to believe I am "playing obtuse" about cop power rather than just disagreeing with you, or hell, even just

being wrong

. Nice way to insert a nefarious motive where none exists.

I did miss it originally, but answered last page.

The playing obtuse bit was your back and forth with Dats where you said:

I think it's a matter of perspective, cause my point is that you did all that damage and yet town still was able to bloc together and win, it wasn't enough to carry your team. Presumably any of these roles in scum hands is going to be some degree of bad, but I think it's easier to contain the "bad" with a scum sheriff over the other roles I named. Especially since we have new elections the next day.

Like what's the best case for a town sheriff, a guilty that we trust and flip, right?

Otherwise even a clear isn't going to be strictly confirmed info until the sheriff's alignment is resolved.

It just doesn't strike me as my number one priority. Don't you think your team in HoD would have done better if you were King and not Cop?

It came across as downplaying how reliable the cop results would be in a way that reinforced my belief that you specifically would understand cop usage in smalltowns and smalltown like setups.

How do you think I should go about questioning you about things I think have a clear scum motivation behind them if what I'm doing is "assigning you a nefarious motive"?

[Bingle]

I'd be interested in your thoughts about there being no counter campaign for tracker, as well, cakez.

[Bingle]

how much history is there between bingle/guiltylion? more specifically, is there any history that would make sense for why bingle thinks guiltylion is this sorta mech genius as town or whatever?

We played together fairly regularly back when I used to play mafia. I have not played mafia (or any hidden information game) in a year and a half assuming I'm remembering dates right.

Hm. Just went back to dig up old links for context, and my memory was wrong. Apparently I've only played with GL twice since I made the switch to playing as Bingle. Once in 2020 and once in 2021.

[Bingle]

viewtopic.php?t=88281&hilit=guilty+lion
viewtopic.php?t=82769&hilit=guilty+lion

[UNOwen]

Don't worry Bingle, it's your internet skills that are failing not your memory.

[Bingle]

Thanks...?

[Datisi]

Don't worry Bingle, it's your internet skills that are failing not your memory.

owen, what do you think about guiltylion?

[UNOwen]

Thanks...?

Just doing some good councilling, no need to thank me.

[UNOwen]

Don't worry Bingle, it's your internet skills that are failing not your memory.

owen, what do you think about guiltylion?

Ok. Some of the energy is awkward but could be early game kick start attempt stuff. I don't think he's done anything that's unlikely as either alignment.