Micro 1070 | a micro normal | Endgame

[mykonian]

VOTE: Myko
Holy what a Fossil!
Hello! I never thought I would play a game with ya!

Hiya Lisa, long time no see.

There's a mafiascum meet in ~2 months and I thought I'd see if I remembered how this game was played.


There's too many players who's name starts with A in this game. There's something up with that. I bet there's scum amongst them.

Vote Aristeia

[mykonian]

VOTE: Aristeia

Too many As. Gotta get rid of some.

See. You might be alright.

For an A.

[mykonian]

I don't know whether to be impressed or distressed by that joke theft.

you ninja'd me, these old bones can't post that quickly.

Hiya Datisi, Andante. I remember you. Come join the Aristeia wagon, it's going places.

[mykonian]

Andante, are you m

a

fi

a

?

[mykonian]

VOTE: myko

Oh, my, god.

YOU SUCK.

Also, iirc Dat would love to get away with a post like that as scum.

[mykonian]

VOTE: mykonian

Hello friend! I'm excited to meet again soon, if only for a short time.

It is always really nice to see you, for however long you can manage.

We had these grand plans of playing more online and I don't think that worked (maybe with some others?) , maybe we should still try that by playing warm up boardgames before the meet?


As for the game, I don't think andantes excitement is alignment indicative. It seems pretty common. Outside that, I would lean town here for now on the content of her posts, not the tone.

Lisa asked whether I played with Dat and I played one mini last year where he was scum (Andante was in it as well). Of the others, if I played with you it's been ages ago, I don't remember how you play.

Wavelength has got a point about Aureal, that's the A I should have gone for.

vote: Aureal

[mykonian]

What content of Andante's are you townleaning her for and why?

Not sure I'm helping anyone if I answer this. For one, it's 3 pages in and Andante is probably the person I feel most confident I can read anyway, so I might as well wait till I'm not leaning one way or another from a handful of posts. There's no pressing need to answer, Andante isn't even being voted so I imagine you all agree she's pretty town. I also don't have to tell the scum who's the obvious town.

That's a lot of words to say that I don't like you and Klick asking about a townread 3 pages in. Go find some baddies. May I suggest Aureal?

[mykonian]

You'll have to get it from my insistence that Aureal is the one we'd want to vote. Aureal would be playing more or less the same way regardless of what else had happened this game, they are going through the motions of their normal game without actually "playing" their normal game.

That describes scum to me.

[mykonian]

You'll have to get it from my insistence that Aureal is the one we'd want to vote. Aureal would be playing more or less the same way regardless of what else had happened this game, they are going through the motions of their normal game without actually "playing" their normal game.

That describes scum to me.

What is this based off of? Experience?

I'm not sure I understand your question.

I'm reading that she's going through the motions. That she's just playing how it always goes. That's in her posts.

I think if you are town you don't have to do that, you just read the posts and play. As scum you have to play as you always do.

So she's scum. I'm not quite sure where experience comes into this.

[mykonian]

I like Wavelength so far. I like his read on Aureal and I like he was the first one to mention it, I kind of thought that the post from Aureal seemed pretty disingenuous.

So where's that Aureal vote, Lisa?

[mykonian]

Have you ever seen town go through the motions before?

Probably.

Got anything better?

Also, iirc Dat would love to get away with a post like that as scum.

with a post like what. 9? in what universe is that a post that is exciting or cheeky for scumtisi to make?

Not exciting. You don't like exciting as scum. But getting your post in and then getting to see how the RVS develops, that'd be right up your alley.

Is there a reason why I would want to put it in hammer range right now? I don't think I need to use my vote to add to the pressure at the moment.

Because if you don't pressure someone what are you doing. And herta is there as a RVS, they'll get cold feet (or they don't) and it'll be interesting to see what they do. And if someone quickhammers, that'd be very convenient too, wouldn't it. Tomorrow would be easy.

So yes, I don't see why you'd wait. Risk/reward is on your side.

[mykonian]

Aureal's way of playing thus far lines up really well with her stated way of approaching the game in a way that runs counter to the reasons she's getting early suspicion

She's an easy target

And that doesn't bother you, that they more or less open with: "this is how I always play, please don't vote me for it". Instead of just.. playing?

It's an easy target because it's the right target. Going for Andante we are going to do at some point, I don't think they get through an early game often. She's easy. You are the pot calling the kettle black here.

Not exciting. You don't like exciting as scum. But getting your post in and then getting to see how the RVS develops, that'd be right up your alley.

i am kind of surprised that you managed to get such an analysis on scum-me from just one game. (an analysis that is wrong, but that's besides the point)

do you actually have a read on me?

No, don't have a read on you. And I think I tried to read other games of you back then, I did with a couple of players to get some meta at least. I imagine you guys know eachother a lot better again this game as well.

[mykonian]

Is there a reason why I would want to put it in hammer range right now? I don't think I need to use my vote to add to the pressure at the moment.

Because if you don't pressure someone what are you doing. And herta is there as a RVS, they'll get cold feet (or they don't) and it'll be interesting to see what they do. And if someone quickhammers, that'd be very convenient too, wouldn't it. Tomorrow would be easy.

So yes, I don't see why you'd wait. Risk/reward is on your side.

See, now look what you've done Herta gets to make a lurkerscum post and doesn't have to respond to the fact that he's on a E-1 wagon. And I don't even get to call him out for it!

[mykonian]

@Aureal

Did you vote Alisae because you found thier questioning of Andante scummy, or would you say it was just an RVS vote?

Do you have even a read on her, even a weak one?

A little of both, but just that question specifically, as I hadn't really connected it to the later stuff. It just kind of stuck out like a possible attempt to color perceptions of Andante, which would be kind of silly as it's obviously invalid reasoning but I could see it having an effect anyway. People aren't perfectly logical.

I suppose at this point I have a vague townread on Alisae. While they're being a bit uncharitable, I do like that there was a thought process behind the talk about past Mafia games; and more importantly, that they didn't feel the need to force a conclusion out of it.

VOTE: mykonian

Aureal, our interaction is a bit of a one way street at the moment. I'm pushing you and you ignore me. Haven't mentioned me at all, just the vote here.

I could just say that you suck for this vote, but I feel like I'm due some attention. See if we can make this one way interaction into a conversation. Because an OMGUS vote doesn't count as talking.

[mykonian]

I like 128, are you thinking Aureal not town?

I don't like 128.

So if Aureal is town, she'd be annoyed I was pushing here and I'm doing it somewhat annoyingly. I'd get that. OMGUS happens. It's pretty counterproductive, town shouldn't do it, but that's no reason to eliminate someone.

However, I have two issues with the post, where I feel it doesn't work with an OMGUS vote. Aureal isn't so much annoyed with my accustion. Aureal makes two accusations from the posts where I'm accusing her, but she goes with related subjects and she attaches labels to it. For one, I'm appealing to authority (a known flaw), however this is about a post where I describe my own logic, I'm appealing to me. There's no authority I'm referring to, I'm scumhunting and being convinced of my own logic. There's no refutal or annoyance at the way the logic would be wrong (in case this is an emotional OMGUS).

Secondly, in the post where I describe this I'm being asked about my townread about you. A townread in an earlier post I explained the reasons why I wasn't going to answer that. That's not ducking a question, I faced the question, explained why I didn't want to answer it. A continuous question was how people could judge me then, and I preferred to explain about my scumread instead. A townread on you has nothing to do with her vote on me.

[mykonian]

I like 128, are you thinking Aureal not town?

Yeah, I'd vote there but I don't want the wagon to grow too big just yet

Same argument goes, one vote, pressure on two. Lets smoke Herta out.

[mykonian]

Lisa. 30+ posts, you have a page of your own by now. And it's just questions, why are you still sticking to the vote you made in your first post?

Where's my Aureal vote?

[mykonian]

- I play D1s slowly. Let me play my game.

Not how this game works. You don't like how I play mine either.

And I think I'm not the only one who dislike you being slow. There's nothing to go off if mosts posts of you end in a question mark. We don't even have your vote to see where you stand. One day you might say Aureal seems disingenuous but you need more questions.

Or we could have someone seeming "disingenuous" sitting at E-1 while Herta, who's second post is a promise that he's going to participate, is going to have to navigate the situation where he ends up on the E-1 wagon. I'd like to see lurkerscum deal with that. Answers without there even being questions, because actions speak louder than words.

So I'd like to see some action from you as well.

[mykonian]

My early d1 reads are shit too but we gotta start from SOMEWHERE.

Do share.

[mykonian]

That does sound like it would make Herta quite readable. Okay I like this more than your arguments for Aureal actually being a wolf. I read your arguments and I just think "Myko would probably be making this arguments if he was a wolf."

I'd be silly to put a townie looking person at E-1. That makes no sense at all.

You put scum there. I'm voting for the person with which limited information I have now I think is likely a baddie. I'd very much like everybody to do the same, but you won't oblige.

I've never encountered someone saying "I don't want to tell wolves who obvtown is" why are you saying that?

Must be an old argument then. Though I kind of doubt it's gone out of meta? People always held their townreads a bit closer to their chest, might as well see if scum kill some reads you aren't too certain about. By the time night comes around, I don't know where my read stands. If I explain where it comes from, you might have a guess where it sits. I don't think her wagon has all that much substance, tbh. It feels like some people parking their vote there. Datisi and Klick are wait and see people like you. They just felt they had to put out a vote. Anyway, I'm hardly in a rush to get to Andante's aid on an early game read.

I think this is fine because if they're a villager they see you and they are probably thinking that you don't care to understand them or see eye to eye. reading it more now it's probs likely to come from either alignment.

What you describe is what it would be coming from town. As luck would have it, we have the game Aureal talked about where she got quickhammered day one, where there is someone semi aggressively pushing her (furtiveglance) in micro 1068. And certain enough, she disagrees, but key: is rather annoyed with the push and the bandwagon. It gets cut short by the quickhammer. It's just talking though about all the reasons why they are wrong (and stupid, crazy), but no vote back.

It's completely different from here where she goes into a vote on me without talking about me at all till the vote, then coming up with logical reasons from the posts where I accuse her without actually calling out why I'm stupid to even think those reasons could apply to her here. She's not calling out the evidence, but calls out that I don't talk about andante when asked and instead talk about her.

(I didn't look up the meta till during today, did have a look to see if my way of treating the OMGUS post actually fit the person. People sometimes react differently from how you expect, but the response from 1068 is how I'd expect a town to suspect the people that are pushing them. It's not like this game. She's not prone to OMGUS anyway, tends to have a pretty open view on the game where she's not at all dependent on people interacting with her personally to gather her reads.)

[mykonian]

I think this gamestate is pretty well readable already

You aren't part of this gamestate though. I wonder what you

want

. I infer you didn't want to see Aureal at E-1. Was that about her, or that E-1 is too early? What does this mean for your Lisa wagon, should it go to elimination?

I am not sure what more pressure you get on Aureal by putting her at e-1 that you wouldn't get at e-2

if you don't want the day to end just intend your vote instead of putting her close enough to die.

What if its a good thing if Aureal runs the risk of elimination? I made some good points about her, as does Wavelength.

And if we talk gamestate, Lisa made himself part of it by voting for what he wanted, be that e-1 or not. That's a good thing, you know more about them than you did before. He already did the intent and talk, and nobody bothered. But he votes and klick shoots into a panic that this is e-1, despite me basically begging Lisa to put Aureal on e-1 in the previous page. You are worried too. And Lisa unvotes.

I'm not certain why you and klick would be worried about Aureals fate, but now at least I can wonder and ask.

[mykonian]

Have I not been previously clear about my Aureal townread? Genuine question, because both yourself and Andante seem to not be considering it in the posts you're making. I don't want Aureal at E-1 because I have a fairly solid townread on Aureal, and I feel like that should be obvious.

Not really. From the top of my head there's two posts, one a bit earlier where you explain for Aureal that their vote was a continuation of the RVS and not really that serious (and how you are supposed to know their motives for them is a bit dubious), and another post where you state that she is following her stated plan for how she always plays games. Which is kind of what I have an issue with with Aureal in the first place. It feels like you see the same thing, except you think it's perfectly reasonable to present your gameplan, then execute said gameplan without actually taking into account what's happening in the game. So unless I missed some post, I don't think you've made a hard statement like "I will never vote Aureal and this is why", it's not that clear to me where the read is coming from and it feels a bit reactive. I'm pushing hard, so it's not weird some people are digging their heels in.

On that note, it's a bit silly at this point to call this wagon easy, I think you had before. We have two of the people actually presenting arguments why someone is scum on the Aureal wagon and it's impossible to get another vote at there apparently. You aren't the only one waiting and seeing. This game is going to have a deadline elimination unless a couple of you get yourself into gear.

I guess if I dive a bit deeper into that, I want to not disturb it, because I feel that often when I try to influence the discourse with specific intentions, I fail to get anything that significantly influences my read on the game. I find much more success getting an accurate read from watching a game develop naturally without large influence from me. So I want to encourage a gamestate that feels naturally developed to me so that I can solve it properly.

Outside of that, there are a few things that I don't want. I don't want Aureal eliminated. I don't want Wavelength eliminated. I don't want you eliminated, I think.

I'm not surprised, but this is why I'm not so convinced about your Aureal defense. You play for things you don't want. You don't want to upset the balance of the town, so the moment E-1 appears you try to get it back in balance. It's too early. That was influence, as is the chainsaw on Lisa that you try to get Datisi on board for (lets frame that negatively for the moment). Unless it's the unvote that bothers you?


If I had to make a case on you now, you are scum because you want a normal game where you can settle. You know Aureal is not your buddy and we are being a bit mean and you are a nice guy. It's easy to understand where she's coming from and we are piling it on there. The moment a weaker voice jumps on in a bit of a hesitant way, that's the moment to get off the stalling Andante wagon and see whether you can look proactive about Lisa. He'd been waffling all day, but this was the moment to shine, it flows naturally from your defense of Aureal too. Datisi isn't your partner but it's nice to buddy up to him, I suspect he tends to be a voice of reason in towns? (in the previous game he was a bit of a lurkerscum, so not certain).

Your partner... hmm. Not sure yet.

[mykonian]

If you don’t believe me, someone smarter in ev calculation can do the math. I would do it under the assumption at least 4-5 players in the game have my role.

I don't know about DkKoba, I think T-bone did NRG stuff way back when. There were a couple in that group which were old enough that they remembered people doing shenanigans with day 1 massclaims to see where it went. It tended to be at least a theme that was thought about. Other breaking mechanics with combo's are a bit easier to spot and MS tends to avoid them. I'd trust them to not pass a game that can be broken day 1 already with a massclaim. But in a small game, you are right, that moment comes a lot sooner. This is not a helpful topic today.


On that note I think your softclaiming isn't helping whatsover. Someone else already said, if you are town you are just helping scum narrow things down. They have more information already, and we are just fishing. And it's a distraction. Can we please go back to calling people out for bad moves and weird relations?

Like this one. You are betting your one role clue against 2 mods and 2 reviewers who saw all the roles. I don't have to do an EV calculation to not like those odds. But it's fun to drop some hints about a roleclaim as scum, might as well set up that fakeclaim! Ever seen town think ahead that far? I haven't.

[mykonian]

edit by way of post, I had missed the top of this page, obviously.

[mykonian]

I think you are both town and we should just flip herta and if he is mafia we should flip mykonian

Now this is a story I have to hear.

If nothing happens in 5 days we are likely going to lynch Herta, so you are happily following the flow of the game, but I'm not sure which of his two posts you got your read from.

LISA: I keep pressing submit and I can't post.

[mykonian]

it is the lack of posting actually

So sure, he's lurkerscum. Which is why by the time of the deadline we are going to Elim him (I just noticed I got that wrong in the previous post, apologies

@MOD

). But it's a bit boring.

Fine, next point then. How am I attached. You've got a plan ready.

his rvs vote got run up to e-1 and he is just doing nothing

that feels like scum who doesnt care about solving and thinking how nice it would be if his rvs gets elimmed on d1 without him doing anything

i think town would at least feel alarmed that his rvs vote got to e-1 before he expressed a read on it.

I agree. He had promised he was going to post that evening, it would have been fun to see him post while he somehow as on the E-1 wagon. Wavelength is there for a reason, I am there for a reason, Lisa was there for a reason and Herta is not. So it's not a real E-1 wagon, and there's only two honest votes on Aureal atm. It's one reason why I really wanted Lisa on that wagon, as stated. If somehow it goes to completion with Herta never saying a thing about it that's pretty scummy. He'd have to address it in his next post.

Sadly we got the unvote and such, but such is life.

[mykonian]

him not addressing it is a reaction

Always iffy, right?

If he posts about something else, yes. If he doesn't post at all, he might not be reading the game so how could he notice the wagon got to e-1?

And if he reads now it's just a 3 vote wagon so who cares :/

[mykonian]

whatever

i still don't think you're town but let's see what the rest of the players think first

VOTE: herta

please tell me you aren't in this camp:

it is the lack of posting actually

him not addressing it is a reaction

him not posting is the reaction.

[mykonian]

please tell me you aren't in this camp:

yes i am

Please just call him a lurker and don't tell me that him not posting is a reaction.

Just for my sanity, please.

[mykonian]

lurker

if i'm wrong on alisae then i can imagine scum being in the less active players and i wanna press them into giving opinions

that good?

yup, happy.

[mykonian]

I’ll claim in full just to make things easier
Informed JOAT w/ w messenger shots and 2 fruit vendor shots.
I’m informed that if someone can perform a misc action, they have my role. So not only is this the JOAT shots but ALSO they are informed.
It’s the kind of role one looks at in this context and can easily go “yep, both wolves have this role” and I think writing said conclusion off entirely because my pm states that just because many exist with my role but it’s not necessary the same alignment is naive. Just considering the pov of a designer here and I can see someone wanting to design a game of this nature and call it complex.

so I had to look up what a messenger is.

So apparently Lisa got a PR that tells them something about the setup. I'm going out on a limb there and say that that's likely something a mod gives to scum. They are supposed to be informed and if the setup is a bit weird, might as well tell them. I don't quite understand how and what and honestly I don't care, but this is something I do not expect on a town role.

So a messenger gets to send a message to a player via the mod! I've had some of my most fun games as scum with that role. It's brilliant. Don't care much about the fruit vendors, they are w/e.

But this is such a scum role to claim. The hell?

[mykonian]

I don't understand why you think Aureal will play one way, get quickhammered and yeeted as town. and then play the exact same way under pressure again.

You are the one using the word exactly here. This feels a bit silly, nobody plays the same from game to game.

But the people behind the screen don't change, so tendencies are the same. That was not the only game Aureal got voted day 1. And she responds a lot more townlike in them.

Because I use the meta to show that yes, she is human and feels its reasonable to suspect the people attcking her. But because they have to be stupid or scum to not see that she's town: that's the tendency. She could think next time she's going to focus more on her attackers, or less, but behind the screen is still the same person who can't believe you'd suspect them as town. Her vote on me is not like that.

And further, in all other games, Aureal is curious about the rest of the game. Up till the post after she voted me, she had few if any reads. Wavelength had to drag a read on him out of her. She switches to Herta when people say that maybe a lurker elim is great. That's a pure bandwagon.

You don't even need that meta to see she doesn't scumhunt. She's only looked at her wagon. Half her game is about me, the person shouting that an elim on her would be a great idea.

[mykonian]

And a general note. We are going to be halfway done with this game-day today. We have discussed massclaim at length, asked a million questions, voted a guy that didn't play and got replaced, and got scared when Aureal got to e-1 because she might die.

Can we get off our asses and see if you can figure out who you do want gone before the last 24 hours of the day?

[mykonian]

Mykonian do you have like, a worldview?

Yes

[mykonian]

I would really like to hear you talk about other slots that aren't Aureal

Ah, this is what you meant.

I'm pleased to tell you I also talked about klick and you recently! Just not as interested in eliminating them.

How about you? Datisi still has to be eliminated?

[mykonian]

Myko I am very curious on if you have a read on Andante

Mostly ok, doesn't post as much as I feared.

So you might want more votes on datisi, yes? A one vote wagon is a bit lame. Who could join you?

[mykonian]

If it lasts, yes.

So how do you avoid that. There's a bunch of people not really tied to their vote. Who are you getting on your wagon and how?

[mykonian]

If it lasts, yes.

So how do you avoid that. There's a bunch of people not really tied to their vote. Who are you getting on your wagon and how?

I haven't really consider who and how I just presented the read and I want to see how people react to it.
How is this a productive line of questioning?

Because I estimate nobody is going to vote Datisi with the game as it is, and it's your problem in a way.

And I'm not impressed with 3 pages of mechanics discussion on day one, you've had your time getting slowly into the game with 1/3rd of the total posts. I see too little substance and your datisi vote might be a thing.

So yes, why wouldn't you be productive about it.

[mykonian]

I fail to see how herta not playing at all, not making a single read, dropping the game and replacing out is scummy.

Yes, it has been a bad wagon, who's the worst vote on there?

[mykonian]

@myko remember you had a problem with aureal's 'going with the motions' post?

what do you think of aristeia this game? do you think 'going with the motion' is a fair assessment of her game so far?

I think it's different. Aristeia is reading the game and making choices. Choosing to sheep Datisi, in a way choosing to vote Andante, choosing to vote an inactive player. These are the easiest choices to make in most cases and bad imo. I think the Datisi one could be premeditated. Come into the game and wonder how you are going to play it as scum, you might think you are just going to play off your relation with Datisi and let it flow from there. I could see that.

I still have the whole "he's not posting and that's the reaction" in my head. I.. just don't understand what kind of mind that comes from. And what alignement that mind would have to have. I think she's played bad, I'm not sure she's scum. Could very well be, it was in my top two worst votes on that wagon, yes.

[mykonian]

I think it is fairly obvious there are much easier paths for me to take this game than pushing for herta's elimination myself.

You were picking a fight with someone who wasn't talking back.

also this hertas play doesnt happen in a vacuum

as other slots get townier to me - the slot that isnt posting gets scummier - there are only two scum in the game and they have to be somewhere.

Ok, this is the first time you mention it's a PoE vote, I think. It is a bit annoying that you don't feel like calling anyone out for how they post. So you have herta's slot talking now, there's stuff to investigate, go show us it's worthwhile. Gimli looks alright to me, what are you thinking?

[mykonian]

your own posting is to omgus at me and not really develop anywhere else

it looks antispewy to me because I am town.

Note: fixed formatting inside quote

Dude has had more opinions on people in one page than most of you in the whole game. This reeks.

vote Aristeia

what should i be townreading you for then?

That's not how this works. You show us he's scum.

[mykonian]

I still have the whole "he's not posting and that's the reaction" in my head. I.. just don't understand what kind of mind that comes from. And what alignement that mind would have to have. I think she's played bad, I'm not sure she's scum. Could very well be, it was in my top two worst votes on that wagon, yes.

@Datisi:

You and Aristeia are the bestest of pals apparently, help me out here with some meta.

[mykonian]

i don't think she'd be trying to defuse me/ali.

Town doesn't tend to care so much. Feels it's more often scum that try to make people see reason.

Because these page long arguments with a spammer tend to be unreadable, and who's going to defuse the sides if you don't have a clue whether one argument might actually be disingenuous.

[mykonian]

Your take that a townie would let two people she thinks are townies just argue endlessly in the thread is pretty nonsensical.

I'm quite impressed you can read either from that, because I feel that if Lisa is scum his bringing up the massclaim with his (probable) actual role which is a scum role really, is where we are going to say after the game that we could've told. I think (and Datisi already confirmed) that he's quite comfortable to go into such an argument and take the correct side and then just argue till worlds end, he's likely going to come out looking like a decent person. Because he's a decent person as either allignment, except this time he picked the argument. It could be two town, but either would happily be in this position as scum as well.

So I'm happy to ignore the whole shitshow and just skim their posts because I know the start and I know the end and all in between is people flinging shit. And given the amount of comments on the discussion, I am not alone.

[mykonian]

it is the lack of posting actually

So sure, he's lurkerscum. Which is why by the time of the deadline we are going to Elim him (I just noticed I got that wrong in the previous post, apologies

@MOD

). But it's a bit boring.

I think this is a scummy post. there's excessive posturing wrt herta without going there and I can clearly see how myko and herta would be viewed as aligned. I also think the 'yeah herta is scum but flipping them is boring' an alarming take in a 9er with 2 scum. 'boring' is half the game if you're so sure about it.

Well hello, scumbud! This is your slot.

I fear you are misreading my statement, which tbf is partly on me, I'm shortening the sentences.

I do not like deadline elims. I certainly do not like them on default options. A elim a day earlier has people commit, a deadline elim is where people get to pile on wagons where they have the excuse that it was the only way. A deadline elim on someone people barely knew anything about anyway is doubly boring. So I'm glad you are here, I doubt you are a default option now. If someone wants you gone, they will have to work for it.

Which is not boring.

[mykonian]

Myko where is your head at with Gimli?

I like him. He says things I can easily agree with, things I don't agree with but that are familiar. And if he's scum, I think he says enough that at some point I could figure it out.

[mykonian]

hardomgusing his primary pusher is literally the easiest move for a scum under pressure to do.

Oh my. Do I have a wagon for you.

Can I interest you in Aureal?

[mykonian]

TOWN
Wavelength
Aureal
Gimli

LEANING TOWN
mykonian

2/4 SCUM
Aristeia
Alisae
Datisi
Andante

As much as I enjoy being in a special category, you do have meta on me.

Is the meta helping or not?

[mykonian]

I didn't know you had it in you, I am positively impressed that we got an elim halfway the day. Sad I couldn't be around for it, get some more reactions out of people.

The thing that Andante does as town is she has thoughts off the cuff and presents them basically unfiltered. In older scum games I believe she has a lot of trouble imitating this play. In her most recent scum game, she imitated this by presenting lots of potential thoughts, but all at a surface level, without the *belief* behind them. She basically pushed whatever was convenient for her at the time, there wasn't a consistent thought process.

So you know this and Andante still managed to get through your previous game!? She struggled so hard to post as scum that game from what I could tell from the ISO.

So anyway, this thought process is on the money imo. This is how you read andante, Klick does it, Klick was already town from some other posts, now he's obvious.

Similarly, Gimli:

andante kinda feels like scum flailing? she started really good, I felt, but once she got pressured her responses were all over the place and she seems to be trying to get townread instead of working out the game.

This echoes my read on Andante. In her first couple of posts she was looking like her town self but even without the pressure the posts weren't coming to her. I was still at the point where I thought she could be busy for a day or two. From page 24 on it's a mess.

Lisa pushes the wagon onto the edge in 611. For how patient he's been throughout the game and that I had to beg them to get a vote on Aureal, it's at least significant and I think scumpartner Lisa would fluff some more and wait it out. Bonus points? Lets outguess the mod a little, shall we. 3 informed roles, and we've seen the scum one. I'd say there are two town ones, to make it "fair". Lisa can go into the obvtown bucket, and we need to find some more informed players.

Aristeia can happily be obvtown in my book as well. It was quick, and despite that I would've loved to be around and talked about the wagon, and seen other people's reactions, I think not waiting is pretty pro town. It's just a personal wish of mine, not a good reason.


But that doesn't go for the whole wagon. I can't just let my tunnel on Aureal go that easily, and that is a pressure vote in 591 that goes to an elimination. ("We need to figure andante out"). I think as either role Aureal is shocked that became an elim.

Regardless, this was a fast wagon on scum, I'm willing to take the odds that there was no scum on it.

[mykonian]

Hello
VOTE: Enchant
lets win

Yes. Would be my guess as well. Datisi would be a lame ass for giving that to a replacement.

And on the off chance of going into night kill wifom, I think scum has to pretend it's possible to elim wavelength to win the game, and shoot on the elim wagon. But if you reread the game, wavelength looks pretty good from the start, so it makes some sense for a replacement to be drawn towards that kill?

[mykonian]

Lastly, that page 3 question why I thought Andante was town was still standing, and I mean, it's fair enough now.

These posts from you really don't seem great
VOTE: Wavelength

feels more like you're trying to assert yourself as this leader "hey all, listen to me, I am the great and powerful"
idk, I'm not a fan. game literally just started

This one pinged town to me, it had motivation and a vote and a reason. Scum Andante finds these posts hard to come by.

[mykonian]

I think we should just elim mykonian and the game should be over

sadly not quite that lucky.

I think mykonian justifying a townread on a dead scum is clumsy enough to be a wolf

So we don't know another, but you've seen me play this game so far. I shouldn't strike you as clumsy.

I still don't really understand his reasoning for pushing Aureal.

Up till her vote on Andante she had ignored the rest of the game, called me scum, and voted someone who then got replaced (at which point she unvoted). Aureal achieved very little day 1. And I only pushed her for the first half, second half I let her breathe.

[mykonian]

also I received a basket of fruit last night ty for whoever was so kind ^^

by chance, do you have a guess who it would be?

Up till her vote on Andante she had ignored the rest of the game, called me scum, and voted someone who then got replaced (at which point she unvoted). Aureal achieved very little day 1. And I only pushed her for the first half, second half I let her breathe.

yes and that is kind of scummy?

like first half of the game you pushed her when Andante was at 3 votes and the other viable wagon...

the second half of the game is me pushing herta and getting gimli run up and then me vs gimli and the wagons became me at 3 and gimli at 3 so obviously atp scum!you doesn't really need to push Aureal since Andante is no longer in danger?

Whether Aureal is mafia or not doesn't depend on game state but whether you have a motive to push her kind of does

You might, but I don't rate that Andante wagon. Datisi and Klick RVS onto it, you sheep Datisi, the first Andante wagon was made of sand.
I also didn't rate the Herta wagon. It's there because Herta isn't and it dissolves the moment Gimli joined.

This was my issue day one, I pushed someone hard out of the RVS where I thought I was right and usually one of two (and a half) happens. People think it's silly to push someone so hard out of the RVS and vote me. People vote the person pushed and someone gets on the wagon in a weird way (not quite like Lisa), or a half chance, I ended up with an a good early pick and somehow that wagon comes back alive towards the end of the day (first wagon never makes it).


Here, I get no reactions. I feel like a lot of people's townread on Aureal is really that I'm pushing her, not so much her responses. But nothing really comes from it. With 3 people waiting (Lisa, Klick and Datisi) and two people not really there (Andante, Herta), I'm not getting many clear reads, there are no practical wagons that people have to respond to elsewhere either.

Now I might be the reason Aureal can't scumhunt, though I have some trouble believing that because in previous games she keeps a pretty open view of the game while under pressure, but say I'm a bit more aggressive than those other people. Maybe she gets into it if she doesn't get mentioned every other post. Alternatively, she doesn't, and towards a deadline elim (because nothing was happening and half the game seemed to be waiting), people might flock to it anyway because where smoke is is fire and she hasn't done much. Either way it's good for me.

Otherwise, I think the Aureal wagon was the only real one. And effectively, it was 3 people for like six posts. Me, wavelength, Lisa (who unvoted within a page), as Herta was a RVS lurker vote. It rattled Klick and that was about it.

[mykonian]

dats was grumpy and wasn't obvtown and dropped the game which might be his recent scum meta? I replaced into a datisi slot recently in a white flag mountainous, nobody left me alone and I got tunneled for days. then I died and flipped mafia and they won.

Jeez. If people know this, why would you still let him play. Got to be a bit of an adult about it, even if your scum partner is crap and implodes halfway day one.


Sorry Enchant, it'd be lovely to dance with you again, but my gut feeling is that this is what happened.

[mykonian]

Imagine using gut instead of ass.

ANyway all your case build on Datisi replacing out? Really?

Obviously not. He did lurk like in our previous game, he was "busy" as scum there as well. I didn't really got a read on what he actually wrote. But mostly, fast wagons are town wagons. This was a fast wagon on scum, doubly so.

[mykonian]

my poe is literally just myko tbh

You are going to be disappointed.

[mykonian]

My game-winning solve is {Enchant, myko, Alisae}

I think the game ends if all of {Myko, Datisi, Gimli die}

With those, I think that's 4 potential votes for both me and Enchant, so we are agreed that far. Would obviously prefer Enchant, to be sensible about these things.

[mykonian]

To clarify my position I don't think you're particularly likely scum but I don't have you cleared like I do a good chunk of the players left
Part of that is because I expect quite a lot from you as scum

tbh this is an irrelevant argument game is over

thank you.

Datisi knew. Lets do the thing.

[mykonian]

So I think I'm about to die, probably mean I should claim, so I'm a motion detector, I think it's a pretty cool role, and I would like to detect some motion tonight. por favor

I think i know why Andante claimed Motion Detector.

We are past the point of softclaiming. Out with it

[mykonian]

Alisae if you help me with myko today I will help you with Enchant tommorrow if the game is not over

Nope we are not doing this. Lets get this perfect game, you don't get many chances on those.

[mykonian]

I think both mafia members are JOATs and Andante CCing Ali would be inconvient.

That's not how the informed portion of their role works.


Anyhow, you should claim Enchant. Give us a nice role.

[mykonian]

I am really proud of my selfcontrol

[mykonian]

I'll go a step further and say Myko and Enchant can claim

Oh yes. I just want to be after him. And I wouldn't want any more claims. That massclaim idea doesn't work today yet.

[mykonian]

why does the order matter to you

As a general thing? It's easier to fakeclaim at the end. Scum know less at the start. So order always matters. And I'm not sure whether enchant has a grasp of what would make sense anyway, so I'd like to hear his claim with as little info as possible.

[mykonian]

Hohohoho it's like by replacing in i am in DEBT on someone.

Not in debt.

But may I have this dance of you? It'll be just like old times <3

[mykonian]

Where's the fun in that. Can we do an hour?

[mykonian]

Well, if you are confirmable, you just claim it now, see if the rest also thinks it's a great plan. We two aren't going to be nightkilled anyway.

[mykonian]

Myko can claim whenever as well

Yeez, fine. Otherwise nothing will happen forever :/

I am also a JoaT, but not of the informed kind. My three actions are not impressive.

I could have been a lazy psychologist, which I would only be allowed to use if there was more than one antitown player left. I asked if I could, I could not use that, so for what it's worth in a 9p game, we are looking for one scum.

Last night, I was a security guard. The person I targeted will be told who targeted them (outside me). Please, scary woman who's out for my blood, can you hold off for a bit?

And I could still be a personal reporter. Which checks if someone used a PR-action. After Lisa's claim, this action didn't make much sense anymore.

What I would like to say going forward, is that 9p needs some power, and I'm not it. But if there are indeed 3 informed JoaT's, of one is scum, there is some power as town could try to read into the setup towards endgame and exclude some possibilities. So for a later massclaim, that's something to keep in mind.

[mykonian]

this is a mini normal

That used to mean something :/

This is a JoaT theme. And I recognized none of the roles that my JoaT had. And there are informed roles flying around!? What's wrong with neighbourhoods.

Anyway, this is why I would have loved for enchant to go first.

[mykonian]

This is a complex micro normal

Fine, that's fair. It doesn't have hydra's! So I won't complain.

[mykonian]

i'm p sure mykonian is the last mafia

Could you at least be so generous to confirm to the ladies and gentlemen that yes, I did target you last night to allow you to see who targeted you (outside me). Lisa targeted you, we saw that already, so you should have gotten that info.

[mykonian]

I'm a mason and I don't think two masons can coexist with a joat that has a psych shot in a micro

also i don't understand the point of making a psychologist lazy because if there's only one scum left it obviously will kill that night?

So I can check if there is an unused killing ability. I don't think the masons are somehow interacting with that.

You have me at a disadvantage with the second question in that I have no clue what lazy is. Regardless, what I used that part of my role pm for is to confirm from the mod that I couldn't use it anymore for this night.

[mykonian]

if I treat Myko's claim as town as well as there being masons I need to know what Enchant has now because if myko is town that's a lot of power

I have a one shot 50/50 cop and the rest is rubbish.

I am not a proper PR.

Enchant is also a mason

Do be joking.

[mykonian]

like 2 masons vs 2 mafia and 5 VTs is balanced so I don't see how your role as claimed could fit into a 9p micro because what is mafia supposed to have to balance it?

Not a clue. It's complex, I don't think it's 5 vt's and a goon then.

And if it helps any, you do know I actually am the role I claim. It's not a scum type of role, it's not useful for them to give the town extra information. I could give you extra information.

[mykonian]

Hindsight says that security guard can be a wolf ability to make myko look townier in combo with andante flip

Or it's the best ability left because a reporter is meaningless if people throw fruit around.


Fwiw, you should have Aureal say something this day then if it's not me and not Enchant (like really Aristeia, you aren't screwing with me?). They were the weakest vote on the Andante wagon by some margin.

[mykonian]

I didn't hammer Myka just out of gratitude for not putting me on E-1.

Yeah please don't. I'm quite alright to be gotten out of the way today if this isn't some elaborate town fakeclaim to get the elim she wants.

But some people still need to talk today, and as I'm going to flip town, tomorrow you are going to have to think about who was the bussing buddy. And it's not so obvious. Two already started thinking about tomorrow today with their "it's one of enchant/myko/X", which is totally not scummy. It was klick first but now Lisa also thinks suddenly about Gimli and I'm not seeing that at all. I think Aureal was by far the worst vote on the Andante wagon, and she hasn't spoken today yet. So you'll want that. And see if she just had the jitters or if it's actually a distancing vote that turned into bussing by accident. (the counterpoint to this argument is that she's quite near the tipping point where distancing becomes threatening, it was the 3rd vote iirc)

[mykonian]

Unless there is some reason that Gimli is clear I would like to get Gimli
guy looked like a wolf responding to these claims

I could see the desperation (I'm up against that!? How's that fair), I guess.

And he's one of the two people who would want Waveform dead, which wasn't the most obvious kill, given he wasn't on the Andante wagon.

[mykonian]

we can get gimli tomm if myko is town?

I wouldn't plan it. You want to think tomorrow, play the game again. Today is "easy". Scum gets to coast. Tomorrow you want things up in the air, have them have to worry again.

And ideally a little into tomorrow you do a massclaim proper. More stress, more things you can figure out scum with. I'd let the scummiest people claim first.

Because if we are going to lose this game it's by thinking it's finished, playing by the book, and scum have read the book as well and just about eek through.

[mykonian]

Myko can claim whenever as well

Yeez, fine. Otherwise nothing will happen forever :/

I am also a JoaT, but not of the informed kind. My three actions are not impressive.

I could have been a lazy psychologist, which I would only be allowed to use if there was more than one antitown player left. I asked if I could, I could not use that, so for what it's worth in a 9p game, we are looking for one scum.

Last night, I was a security guard. The person I targeted will be told who targeted them (outside me). Please, scary woman who's out for my blood, can you hold off for a bit?

And I could still be a personal reporter. Which checks if someone used a PR-action. After Lisa's claim, this action didn't make much sense anymore.

What I would like to say going forward, is that 9p needs some power, and I'm not it. But if there are indeed 3 informed JoaT's, of one is scum, there is some power as town could try to read into the setup towards endgame and exclude some possibilities. So for a later massclaim, that's something to keep in mind.

these are not misc actions these are investigative actions

Just the one that I couldn't use.

That works 50% of the time in such a game.

Like ignore for a second that you want my head, this is not a powerful PR by any means. The power is in the masons. The fact that I was your security guard makes no real difference how you read allignments if there can happily be mafia fruit vendors.

Actually,

@Lisa

, by chance, your messenger role, would that send your name along? Or just the message. In which case my role could trip up scum trying to confuse a townie, as that townie suddenly knows who the one sending it was (very low probability, but I'm curious)

like 2 Masons vs 2 Mafia with 5 VTs is a balanced 9p setup - it is run as one of the Newbie setups

I have never seen a micro setup with 2 Masons vs 2 Mafia and another TPR that could add positive utility to the town. And Psychologist is a positive utility role.

You haven't seen the last mafia role yet. Imagine it's a one shot dayvig. (Or more reasonable, a role that can also see who's acting, in some way sniffing out the PR's)

[mykonian]

I did say it wasn't reasonable but I couldn't think of something powerful quickly. A watcher? That tends to do it.

(also, can't they in larges either? I agree it's silly here)

no

I understand if there were masons
I understand if there's a cop

I don't understand two potato joats + another joat + masons and enchant is also an invest? that's too many things for me to process

if there are two masons in a 9p then there should not be any more town tprs that are positive utility like capable of doing something useful. finding a mafia via psychologist is

useful

Flip this argument on it's head though.

This is a town role and you know I have it. I'm not fake claiming my role. I am not a goon. This isn't close to the open setup.

[mykonian]

Myko I think the way it works is it doesn’t say who sent the message but they just get the message.
Obvs I can put my name in the message

Cool. So technically I could still have been useful then tonight.

[mykonian]

if there is only one mafia alive, by definition that mafia is killing, therefore the psychologist cannot guilty that mafia - there is literally no reason to add a "lazy" gate to the role.

But I could still use the psychologist shot, it would just be useless. I think the mod maybe added it in case I think 3 scum in a 9p would be reasonable and somehow still used that ability and wasted a night?

Anyway, still the same, you know I have this role, you can happily be confused about my allignment, if Lisa doesn't even know what lazy was supposed to be, how does a "fossil" (not grumpy at all) like me know? I used another shot of the role on you already. I'm going to be a town uninformed JoaT or I'm going to be a scum uninformed JoaT, the clue is not going to be in how a one shot lazy psychologist affects the setup.

Because you are outguessing the mod, while you have a thread with someone you think is scummy where you could have actual arguments.

[mykonian]

it wasn't a hammer, he was on me before.

[mykonian]

Game is confirmed 7-2

Well if I fake my claim you never know (muahahaha >.>)

[mykonian]

Well at the very least, could you have the others speak today. Might as well give Enchant some time to actually get up to speed with the game as well, we aren't necessarily in a rush.

[mykonian]

goodnight, see you tomorrow

[mykonian]

It specifies that it doesn't check for the nightkill of scum (paraphrasing makes the wording weird, but I imagine this is the "normal" reporter role). So I'm only checking whether someone is a PR or not.

With the starting setup being 3 fruit vendor/messenger JoaT's, my role, and I thought we'd be on the weak side as town then, I felt I could guess what the answer was going to be. "Yes this person is a PR". Didn't appeal to me.

So I put the reporter on the person who was most in the spotlight. Didn't think there would be a doctor with my role in there, so I just hoped someone earlier on the wagon was going to take the shot.

[mykonian]

yes. Good point.

So if it were a personal reporter (reading is key, apologies), does that do the trick for you.

[mykonian]

I think that in most of Gimli's interactions with Ari, he does not appear to be talking in a way that makes sense to be a townie talking to their top scum read [who they think is currently pushing you in bad faith.]

He looks like he is talking to a townie that he is trying to get to re-evaluate him (especially early on) / discredit her read if she doesn't (more of this later on).

Once I made it clear that I did not wish to interact with him on my scum read on him (largely because I find that to be a fruitless endeavor for both parties, and one of the worst ways to get a genuine re-evaluation of a scum read) I am now being described as tunneled to discredit my read as well.

I feel like a lot of this is echoing the way you were seeing me as well, would that be a reasonable assessment?

Anyway, I'm not sold on Gimli yet but I am trusting Klick and obviously we need to figure out Andante so I will VOTE: Andante here. I don't understand this slot at all- can anyone with meta on her explain how the heck someone who apparently thinks that reading 90% of the game is optional can manage to play this game?

Pedit: hi Andante, feel free to answer that question for yourself too please

Well I see I am definitely in a game full of people who have much more confidence in themselves than I understand. As usual. @_@

So I'd be harping on a little, but this was the weakest vote on the wagon in terms of the posts itself. First post is a pressure post. Last post is a "oh shit this is actually happening". Now it was properly fast, so I could see the latter from town as well. If I was to go to the final day with Aureal I wouldn't instantly vote. I'd have a long hard look at the other person. Some guesswork, this is the person Andante is omgussing at the final moments. And here I'm not certain but I could see that two ways. One, Andante is annoyed with their buddy and wants to play some long game where they distance. Two, Andante is annoyed and energized and finds something to pick on in one of the silly townies votes and this was clearly the weakest also from that perspective, it's the easy target. She is with Gimli one of the two people who would benefit most from Waveform dying.


Unless Klick was there. Usually if you have a bit of a stronger player make it later, it becomes suspicious, but he engineers that wagon. Gimli follows him easily (which can be a buddying attempt (towards klick) gone wrong). His reasons are sound, he's the main push. This would've been a bussing attempt out of thin air, I don't think that's the case. Gimli flitting about with his votes (and not sticking on you) feels properly town. As scum he could've hang around on you, it was a wagon that could've gone somewhere. As scum, I could see him being asked by Klick and thinking this is a good moment to get some distance with Andante and then watch the implosion happen.

And Lisa is very right. The moment masons get claimed and he's like "what, masons too? I have to shoot through 2 more confirmed townies? This Waveform kill has backfired" would be the moment where he slipped in a way.

VOTE: andante
There lasts posts were ??????
They can claim

If I'm being suspicious, this is out of tune. Lisa waaaaaaaited so long. And waited. I begged for what it felt pages to get them on honestly (and you can disagree) the best wagon, the best case. To be the 4th vote (but Herta/Gimli was on there). And that really didn't feel comfortable.

This happens in an instance, there's conviction, and it's not after asking a couple more questions, no, it's post->response. If this is Lisa scum, someone is scared they are going to miss the boat, they want to take some control of the situation (Andante isn't, maybe a good fakeclaim as a focus can get them out of it, and it's a flash wagon in the middle of day one, what are the odds someone hammers?).

Lastly, this is just me, but it took me at least ages to figure out we were not playing against mafia, but werewolves. Lisa kept insisting on wolf as the word for the baddies from the start. Are all games with werewolves now? And there's the 3-4 pages of massclaim stuff. But then, given one flipped, I'd put the odds that Lisa might be a town one? Then again, then there is a LOT of circumstantial information (all the fruit does add up) in this town, there has to be some place where it can be confused.


I think on balance if I got there tomorrow, I would give the impression I was always going to vote Aureal and getting a better look in on Gimli mostly. I don't think on balance the case on Lisa amounts to that much, it's just these tiny little things and there are positives there too.

[mykonian]

can I go back in a time machine and shoot klick
i wanna go back in a time machine and shoot klick

Everybody was expecting you to do that

Okay good, I can stop staring at this thread for hours wishing I could be useful now. @_@

You were fine, and I didn't make life easy on you. You weren't the only somewhat muted person in this game.


And well played town in general. I see I have my work cut out for easter, Klick I need to polish my scum game.

[mykonian]

gg town <3 sorry i replaced out

thanks for modding! the design was interesting, though there's usually not much that can happen mechanically in a micro game - would be interested in seeing a mini/large of your design

I fought for micro sized games, and others turned this into a queue. It's like short stories. Everybody can fluff up a large 1000 page novel with descriptions of everybodies clothes and every room. Not everybody can tell a meaningful story in 5 pages, you have to measure every word

[mykonian]

Don't listen to him, Bianco! He's trying to corrupt you!