Amnesiac Mafia: The Movie! That's a Wrap!

[Pink Ball]

i am actually very curious at where dragoneater is at this point in the game.

The scum PT, he hasn't realized that's not the main thread

[Klick]

why does xof like drixx?

Xof likes Drixx because of his posts naturally lead themselves to being accountable, particularly 955.

Fwiw I believe this is a take xof would have as town in this game

[Klick]

I've never read something quite as tiring as Thestatusquo's and Drixx's case against Black. As I slowly read it, trying my best to extract meaning out from their drawn out sentences, the concepts I absorbed gradually began to bounce uselessly against the back of my head.

Fortunately, I managed to piece together what I believe to be the base of their case,

that Black is behaving differently from what her town play usually is

.

(If there's more to it than that, feel free to restate it. I'm not plunging into the depths of the last few pages ever again.

I do have a rebuttal: I played exactly one game with Black where she was town. It is a recent game, it literally concluded right when Team Mafia was starting, so I believe it to be a accurate representation of what her town play currently is. In the early game of that game, Black play was really similar to what she's displaying now. She was already playing a lot safer than the behavior described.

I believe you believe this

[Klick]

If theres one thing that annoys me in games of mafia its people who are like oh I disagree about a thing but by the way I haven't actually really read the thing.

It's a scum tactic and if you're town its just incredibly annoying. Do your homework.

I disagree with this take fundamentally
People should only engage at the level that lets them enjoy the game as long as that level also allows them to draw some sort of conclusions that they believe in

[Klick]

Of the top of my head:
I townread Dunnstral. I had already listed this as a "Aisa" read, but it has been upgraded to a "me" read.

I would like to hear why both of you townread Dunn

[Klick]

About the 3rd tier, DK said Klick is a pretty good wagon to pursue because they seem pretty flaccid and not exuding any of their towniness.

I don’t think 'exuding towniness' on Day 1 is particularly a tenet of my town game. Ask Koba if they can remember a Day 1 where I was obvious town. The only experiences I can remember with them as town are in games where they repeatedly called me likely scum until they died.

[Klick]

On the other hand, 'flaccid' is a good description of most D1s from me. Particularly in Larges. Koba is probably using Hollow Knight as a recent reference, but that's an exception and not the norm.

[Klick]

Titus
DragonEater70
Dunnstral
Save The Dragons
Firebringer

BlueSnakelet
Thestatusquo
Black
kuribo

Feysal

Pink Ball
GuyInFreezer
Drixx

Frozen Angel

Pink Ball is Bella's scumread that she has repeated a few times, I'm null on him

I'm going to put quite a lot of effort into getting what I feel is an accurate read on Feysal at some point but that point is not now

[Klick]

That gap was not intentional but it is accurate I'm going to keep it

[Frozen Angel]

people who say they scum read me. If you don't drop in a question or explain your thinking process, you will get absolutely nothing out of me or anyone else voting on the wagon right now this way.

My wagon is the easiest to hope on right now, cause no one voting explains anything or asks anything and people in town and scum will be like yeah I hit it too.

Do work for your vote on my wagon so you make other people work for their votes on my wagon as well so at least you can sort them based on it.

[Thestatusquo]

Titus
DragonEater70
Dunnstral
Save The Dragons
Firebringer

BlueSnakelet
Thestatusquo
Black
kuribo

Feysal

Pink Ball
GuyInFreezer
Drixx

Frozen Angel

Pink Ball is Bella's scumread that she has repeated a few times, I'm null on him

I'm going to put quite a lot of effort into getting what I feel is an accurate read on Feysal at some point but that point is not now

pretty safe.

[Klick]

Yes look at me being safe with my nine townreads

[Frozen Angel]

Alright, you're about to see a bunch of long wall posts as I will iso-hunt different slots of this game. so far I've been basically skimming the game/even my catch up as this is the first day I actually have time to do some surgery in game. Regardless I'm gonna start with the slot that stood out most to me on the skim. so if you don't like wall posts skip to the ---- part at end of each post where I explain my general impression on each slot.

VOTE: Firebringer
I really don't enjoy their entrance and I dare say it's possibly scummy.

This is the first notable read made by slot. Need to note it down.

Wait is this going to be the first game where I am being consensus townread on page 2?
Rather than consensus scumread on that page, that is.

This self awareness is actually not fitting with what I remember of dragon eater form the game I modded and they played it or the other games I saw them in previously. In the other game they even had a guilty and were not safe aware about how and when to drop it in thread. They didn't "care" as much about how they were perceived by other slots is what I feel. so this as his first posts in this game, feels so different personality-wise.

Guys I re-read FB vs Dunn and honestly I've been scumreading both, but now I want to individually TR each one of them for making a good push on a scummy slot.
I'm honestly confused.

Going for dun as his questions were not hitting anything - makes sense as a read but his way of backing off from that is him trying to stay in a safe position with both slots he had been uncomfortable with. Not neccessirly distancing scum, can be distancing town but its definitely distancing, as if he would want the slots sorted he would probably ask questions of each or try and engage with each/iso read their past posts, make actual assessments about each individual - instead of just saying they both are scum read of his but he town read them for going after each other at same time.

Also on rethinking of the Dunn v FB, I think that Dunn's vote was justified. On the other hand, FB's scumcase is based on something that IS scummy on Dunn's part, but could easily be pushed by scum and therefore doesn't warrant a TR on FB.
Therefore I am no longer TRing FB for pushing Dunn, and am gonna probably vote FB (after I finish the catchup).
For noe though I'll UNVOTE:

again distancing. his two scum read changed to two town read but "those two town read are actually right about what they found scummy on other slot" this is not really being an assertive mindset. Its just going with both flows.

VOTE: Firebringer
I really don't enjoy their entrance and I dare say it's possibly scummy.

why?

Their roleplay was triggering my PTSD from scum-spam in your Demon Hunter game. It felt like unnecessarily drawn out fluff that didn't help us get out of RVS and that was actually hindering us from having a readable thread.

Where did FB do RP in the other game. They posted lot of fluff and open wolfed but never saw them RP there? I think this justifies the first read dropped though in a sense, if its gut based and based on the exp of demon slayer game (not trusting FB fluffing in general) so consistency points for this

oh and I think there is a good chance FB dun was tvt and feysel freaked when FB called out its possibility and went after feysel instead somewhere in those pages.

I actually agree with you on it possibly being tvt

full back off on the they might be right about each other, appealing to me making this read

Okay I just read through Klick's ISO, and initially it felt a bit weird:
It is kinda weird that Klick gave like 4 townreads with minimal explanation and no scumreads. It feels very easy to fake, I guess. And none of their posts really stood out for me at the start.

But then I continued reading and I saw those posts, which have a genuine town mindset IMO:

Spoiler:

VOTE: Firebringer
I really don't enjoy their entrance and I dare say it's possibly scummy.

You're probably town!

super why?

This doesn't feel at all like the desired opening play for scum

I've played like 3ish games in a row with Titus where she has been scum and in this game I'm getting a zeal from her that I haven't felt in other games. I think she's engaged her town solving brain in a way that she wasn't quite there for in the last few games I've been in with her.

It could be Team Mafia making her tryhard even if she's scum but I'm enjoying her content so far regardless and am fine to boost what she's currently doing for the thread.

From where I'm at right now FA feels very similar to Cosmos where she was scum though

Go on please.

It's not a very strongly formed thought
But the basic idea is that in Cosmos I felt like FA's approach was largely to question other people's takes as a means to develop her own view of the game and make it look genuine
It's different from a town approach in terms of motive for posting; the whole point of what FA was doing in Cosmos felt like it was to look town through having considered and nuanced takes that were developed by sort of hijacking other players' genuine thoughts and critiquing them
And here it feels very similar, I feel like almost everything FA has done has been a critique of another original perspective with only a couple of reads originating from something she has brought up herself

It all fits under this umbrella idea of 'I think FA wants to look town right now rather than actually doing town things'

Let's dive deeper. What reads feel sourced from FA? A sample that doesn't?

I felt it most strongly in her interaction with me. 336 particularly alerted me to this as a concept:

Because people like you aren't going to like it!

why do you think I disliked it? I just noted its existence. it doesn't give me any kind of info either way. that's why asked about what was behind the post in his thought process

I actually have more read on your tr on it than I have on the original read itself. (leaning toward the dislike category)

pedit: his going after blue for the titus thingy was what I called try harding on page 2 IMO I don't care about his rp

It's high-detail, specifically contradicts assumptions I made about her perspective, and develops what appears to be a nuanced take on both myself and DragonEater without doing the heavy lifting. I remember her doing something that made me feel very similar to this in Cosmos. Let me go find it

viewtopic.php?p=13538654#p13538654

I'd like to quote that post but I can't quite make it happen, idk whether I just am not able to quote from locked threads at all or if it's a mobile-specific issue

It's not an exact match to what I'm describing here, but basically I made an assumption based on VCA, and FA used it as a means of discrediting what I was saying while developing her own read on me as well as the situation without adding much genuine original thought outside of detailed analysis of my own thought.
The same sort of thing happened in her early-game argument with STD, in their conversation about 'shading'. This is probably a better example of it, it happened in like the first 10ish pages of that game.

341 feels similar. Lots of critical thought in a very focused way towards specific details of Feysal's 97. She gives the appearance of a nuanced perspective but it's limited to what she could derive from 97 itself, and I think the projection of nuance could be intentional.


I actually fairly like FA's last two posts as counterexamples of this - they contain clear general conclusions based on the things she's been talking about. The add-on in 361 a minute and a half later feels kind of like legitimate thought. But I want more of that from her.

So I am actually going to say Klick is a townlean of mine (and I was also convinced by their case that FA is scummy here).

"these posts come from a town mind set" is not assertive either. its appealing. (though klick is really hunting stuff/being assertive in those posts so I agree with the read).

But the second line is not something he should have said on klick read. klick posted a meta read on those posts he himself had doubts on, the meta read he posted is really focused on a behavior than anything else and he didn't try to assert if meta read is sufficient or correct on that channel and he doesn't have any kind of vision about how I play scum like klick does = hence I think its just a try for appeal to klick in this post than a real scum read.

hence why i asked him to explain klicks case in his own words at the time, which he ghosted on that request so far.

Also Klick, your readlist is so interesting to me. Why am I in first place? And why is GiF so low?

why so self-conscious? Dragon eater is not searching and being assertive, he is just going with the flow and being self councious

Ugh god I really don't like dragon's response there

vote: Dragon

Not to reiterate the things that Shea just said, but I do agree with him on this. You never once questioned four people calling you town seemingly with no good reason. And then calling yourself limbait, ehhhhhhh

Just feels like a way to preliminary poo-poo a wagon on you

Read my completed games - I've been called limbait several times on D1, different games.

This just doesn't make sense as a response. he didnt ask if people calling yourself limbait is a typical thing or even you being a limbait is a typical thing. he is saying you're not questioning people town reading you to assert them. (intrestingly you just did question one close to this post - so it seems you read this issue with your playing style and went and tried to remedy that before even responding to this post). and you not trying to assert people who town read you, means your self awareness is not for sorting people who make reads about you and its just for your positioning in game - which is more fitting for a scum mind set.

You being a limbait usually is completely irrelivent

@Feysal, I read your case on FB and I agree that their push on Dunn is scummy.
VOTE: Firebringer

After going with my read on FB dunn, he went with another appealing over assertion and went with feysel case on FB and went back to voting FB

------------------------------

Dragon eater is scummy. He is just not solving. He is incredibly self aware but not the type who want to assert why people have reads on him/just about people having reads on him - he is flip flopping on FB dun case with every read others make - he is appealing to "hotter" cases people post without asserting the cases. = he wants to have reads more than he wants to find the reads = he is probably informed and is just working on his own position in game than solving.

lets please have more votes on dragoneater.

[Frozen Angel]

btw all I got from gimli so far was that he saw game is already 40 pages and posted a gif of a kid running away to hide

[Frozen Angel]

gonna iso the wagon on me next, starting with titus

Black, I have a 75% meta tell on you.

I'm deliberately going to let others post to see if they see it.

You remind me of me when I started.

Your only loss was a town game correct?

where did that meta read go?

@Black How do you feel about Feysal for proposing it?

Can you give me your mehs?

titus is doing random stuff but they don't seem directed and they seem to be helpful for sorting in general

her later chat with dunn feels natural

her chat with klick about klick meta on me feels natural too

From where I'm at right now FA feels very similar to Cosmos where she was scum though

Go on please.

It's not a very strongly formed thought
But the basic idea is that in Cosmos I felt like FA's approach was largely to question other people's takes as a means to develop her own view of the game and make it look genuine
It's different from a town approach in terms of motive for posting; the whole point of what FA was doing in Cosmos felt like it was to look town through having considered and nuanced takes that were developed by sort of hijacking other players' genuine thoughts and critiquing them
And here it feels very similar, I feel like almost everything FA has done has been a critique of another original perspective with only a couple of reads originating from something she has brought up herself

It all fits under this umbrella idea of 'I think FA wants to look town right now rather than actually doing town things'

Let's dive deeper. What reads feel sourced from FA? A sample that doesn't?

This is extremely towny. this means she is fully reading/following klick meta read, asking for examples, trying to see if it applies and what might be left there to explore. This is how you treat a meta read like that as town.

Meh

VOTE: FA

I don't have the energy to fight the thread over Black.

why is black scum? can you case her? cause most stuff you posted till this point is like is a tell you can have based on past experience and not much based on what she posted so far in game so is hard to follow.

I feel like if any other player just randomly started talking about multiball for no reason whatsoever in the middle of day one I would just vote them immediately.

Yeah it's TM. Multiball not a thing.

I actually need to recheck why this multiball discussion started again but it was really weird and I mentioned at time too.

but i'm also willing to vote frozen angel :thumbs up emoji:

Can you? I'd like to see wagons going and I much prefer FA.

why? You have not been trying to converse with me at all. what you hope to gain from a wagon on me when people are just dropping a vote without explaining and there isn't something for me to respond to?

I figured it best to get into the NAI stuff here just in case.

Spoiler: What's going on with me

In late March I went to the ER for some scary symptoms. They ran tests and found only a chest defect I was told was cosmetic. It wasn't. The defect symptoms can, but don't always, get worse as people age.

I struggle with breathing and focusing sometimes. For a minute or two I get occasional blood oxygen crashes that immediately come back up.

The main fix is surgery. I am having my first meeting May 10th. Post surgery I should have a fair amount of mafia time as well. I am playing as a distraction. I am not subbing out. I am not auto town or auto scum for this. It's just setting expectations.

I may VLA and post at the time of surgery. My health is up in the air. Vanishing at any point is NAI.

get better soon <3 best wishes for you

I figured it best to get into the NAI stuff here just in case.

Spoiler: What's going on with me

In late March I went to the ER for some scary symptoms. They ran tests and found only a chest defect I was told was cosmetic. It wasn't. The defect symptoms can, but don't always, get worse as people age.

I struggle with breathing and focusing sometimes. For a minute or two I get occasional blood oxygen crashes that immediately come back up.

The main fix is surgery. I am having my first meeting May 10th. Post surgery I should have a fair amount of mafia time as well. I am playing as a distraction. I am not subbing out. I am not auto town or auto scum for this. It's just setting expectations.

I may VLA and post at the time of surgery. My health is up in the air. Vanishing at any point is NAI.

Spoiler: OOG

If by any chance getting stressed out worsen the symptoms, please tell us if you start feeling this way. This a game after all, your health is a priority. Hope everything works out!

Will do but this game isn't stressing. We need wagons though. Smaller games already got them.

can you read dragon eater iso when you have time and tell me whats your read on him

------

titus town read, assertive, nice discussions with players, reading their cases and trying to make people elaborate them, looking for wagons but not sure what she wants to achieve with her wagon on me.

[Frozen Angel]

dunn next

I’ll scumread you too just to make you feel comfortable

Thanks! Not used to being townread before page 10.

I see now that Klick is townreadin you, but why are you acting like everybody is?

This is good directly out of rvs push, also on FB

26 is me talking about how i was not happy i didn't get a scum pm.

OK. This is an answer to what I was asking. What you posted in 57 was not - why did you choose to make this more difficult?

Additionally, why did you vote for me in post 57?

This is just too aggressive though. Like I feel "feelings" behind dun like "anger"? It just doesn't make sense in his posts around this area.

I wasn't attempting to insult you or be aggressive with roleplay and I really can't fathom how you see it that way,

You said "rambling nonsense as if he is schizo." and "talking to this man might be a waste of his time".

You don't see how that is insulting/aggressive? Really?

he is angry for sure. makes me think his push was genuine

I think that BlueSnakelet looks awkward here.

Their first post, 28, gives me that feeling. After that they banter for a bit and then in post 44 seem to say "what's the point of theme games" in response to someone else not liking roleplay. I feel this is a weird stance to have as usually this kind of thing is not present in theme games. I'm not sure where BlueSnakelet is coming from here.

assertive

It was a difference in tone. Dunnstral was asking questions, but Dragon seemed angry at Firebringer for the act and voted them for it.

Meh. I feel like Dunnstral felt a little angry in his tone, but we can agree to disagree

I'm not angry. But I'm also not going to entertain someone being difficult just for the sake of it. I ended up asking Fire the same question multiple times because he was not answering it. I did mean what I said about using mental health as an insult as being in bad taste but I'm not taking it personally.

nah you were angry. or maybe that's not the best choice of word. still could sense strong feelings there.

what I don't see is you actually sorting FB back through these feelings though. You are questioning him here but there isn't enough attempt to solving him.

I was not aware that Firebringer preferred playing as mafia and so I didn't know what post 26 meant in the context of the game's special role system. I thought maybe they didn't understand how the game worked. I didn't like that instead of answering me they made that post and voted me and then I feel danced around calling me scummy instead of answering what I was saying. I found it took them a long time to articulate what exactly they took issue with in my posting, and then even then never really went into detail, instead preferring broad statements akin to "I didn't like it".

Yes I've played with Firebringer before

You still have vote on FB here, but this is like you debunking your own read on FB. it has an essence of solve in it but more like solving your own case on him than trying to sort FB himself. and why didn't you unvote FB earlier? or are you scumreading FB here for some other reason than his responses about what alignment he prefers to play area?

He has played dozens of games with me.
And I listed him as one of the people i was hyped to play a game with.

Ive actually always considered dunny to be a mafia friend. So the fact he took my rp as insulting him, was just really baffling to me.

Theres a lot of things to unpackage there I just don't want to right now.

As soon as I started posting you said it wasn't worth listening to me? Did you not?

I can see the emotion and its consistent

is there a history? I mean something happened in last game you two played vs each other?

dunn posts are too serious. he is questioning stuff after this point that actually can be useful for sorting slots but in general are easy to fake if scum?

Lady Lambdadelta's thoughts in my own words:

Titus is fence sitting really hard this game. She is capable of playing this worthlessly as town, but not with a team she has to look out for and with other players she respects.

This is me/Firebringer town and Titus faking reads on both to position herself where she needs to be. She is going out of her way to be middle of the road.

Thestatusquo is almost a scumread because he is asking Titus all these questions and trying to get answers when personality wise he should just be voting her right now to force an answer.

Feysal is town for getting overwhelmed in their interaction with Firebringer.

Klick is town for having sane posts after some other rough posts in the thread.

Black is maybe town due to interactions with Thestatusquo, but both are unlikely to be town together.

DragonEater feels too naive to be mafia and is a gut town read. They would be getting more direction as mafia.

Pink Ball is mafia for the interaction with Feysal about the drinking game being an attempt to be a social townie and slip under the radar.

Also there is at least one lurker mafia right now. Maybe just the one and it is Titus, Thestatusquo, Pink Ball, and one more. The rest of the active posters feel like town.

VOTE: Titus

This is a very assertive read list. getting from those feelings regarding FB to produce a town read on him and hunting whoever would have been steering that convo (going after titus) is interesting.

oo emotional defense from dunn really. no try to sort back FB even though the first poke was him going on FB tail.

That isn't emotional defense.

not sure why you deny?

dunn titus convo about black has a relaxed titus saying they scum read black for meta and not explained out reason, and dunn saying they have no meta and they like black play. I kinda feel I believe the scum read based on meta more than feeling this strong about going after that read by dunn and if one was scum in this convo between titus and dunn, it's dun.

oo emotional defense from dunn really. no try to sort back FB even though the first poke was him going on FB tail.

That isn't emotional defense.

It really was a little bit emotional tbh. Like you had counter points but it felt like you're angry at FB for how he went that avenue on you. I actually think it's a sign that the argument between you and him was natural but a very weak sign for that

about this

I really think you were not trying to sort FB back there that feels out of place. I care more about that then about the emotion in it.

Oh it was emotional? OK thanks for telling me how I felt.

Look, I was clearly trying to sort Firebringer. I started this interaction by questioning them, and voted for them when they didn't answer me. I've explained what I think about Firebringer a few times.

I do not like this push from you.

you're welcome. why do you wanna slap me in this post though?

seems like this is just how you play and I might be reading too much into it but my point is whatever emotion was there was consistent.

and you were not sorting FB. You did ask him a question, you were right that he didn't give a complete answer so you voted him, played around that vote a bit and engaged directly with him but not to actually sort his reads/posts or even his read about you. and then you called it a tvt and moved on. it felt like a personality clash without actually discussing why would a scum mindset/scum!FB would do this or that or analyzing stuff.

I never said I think it makes you scum. I just think it doesn't mean you're town. The push on FB was not based on something strong anyway, you just made it big going hard at him (maybe that's why I sensed that emotion there)

still gotta keep a note of this as well to see how it makes sense in larger picture

I liked FA's entrance and her thoughts felt like they were coming from a genuine solvey place, however I started to doubt that after reading some of what Klick put down about her. Klick has a couple of good points about why he thinks FA is scummy here even if they aren't very strong. Like they seem like things that would make Klick sus of FA but not necessarily things that could get others onboard. FA's whole reaction to the Klick push was to discredit it and then jump on Dragon for following it and I feel like this could be interpreted as her going for an easier target

"discredit"

where did I discredit klick's push on me I want you to specifically point out to what you mean when you use that word cause all I did was clarifying to him why what he sees is not scum indicative of me while completely acknowledging what he was seeing without any confrontation

also my vote/scumread on dragon eater is not because of

him agreeing with klick

its because I think he is not, in reality, agreeing with klick, I think he is actually faking reading/following what he wrote about me and just went on sheeping someone who expressed town reading him on their scum read.

why?

truthfully mostly

gut feeling

about how he jumped on that read. but also cause in my head klick made a link between my play here and what he saw before while dragon eater cant make such link in their head like them.

I really think he saw klick posting a meta read and without questioning "is this meta sufficient" or "is this even making sense" sheep it, while klick's doubting himself on forming the meta read before, suggests he is unlike dragon eater and was evaluating that link.

hence I think dragon eater is an opportunistic scum who is using the tr that was expressed on them to steer behind klick on this linked read

I think that this is a plausible theory, but is there any supporting evidence? Why do you think this?

LLD thinks that this FA post looks defensive and stilted, like FA is trying to get out from under something instead of arguing something she believes in. And FA fits in as the lurk mafia LLD was looking for.

I (Dunn) am in agreement after having the above framed to me like so, because I am not seeing why FA is thinking this way about Dragoneater so it looks like sowing doubt and trying to deflect. "Getting out from under something" is a good phrase that I'll use again here.

VOTE: Frozen Angel

LLD thinks that Titus might be voting FA thinking that FA can save themself so that Titus can swap their vote later, or worst case get bus cred. Because Titus' vote on FA feels like Titus got there with zero reasoning and is dissonant from their prior take. Giving up on Black and saying "meh" doesn't make sense.

If Titus wants to bus, we should let her bus and then dunk on her tomorrow.

I'm (Dunn) going to add that it is not clear why Titus decided to vote for FA over other options, which I feels lends merit to this being a bus that Titus is not expecting to take off.

This post makes mose sense in light of knowing dunn went after titus and he and lld felt she could have been steering a tvt on him and FB before as well.

but still its the perfect position for a possible scum to sit to sort mislims

I gotta say, Titus is really acting like Black is being unreasonable this game. And I feel Black has been entertaining Titus' requests this whole time, and then Titus acts like it's not good enough and that Black isn't working with Titus.

So to me, Titus is the one being unreasonable here. Scumreading Black is one thing, but acting like they aren't giving you what you are asking for feels.. I don't know, manipulative somehow? It seems bad at least.

this feels a bit white knighting but I find it towny actually. its really assertive about black. what would be motivation for scum!dun to hard block a titus push on black?

though titus is not providing enough to justify a scum read on black in first place so dunn is right about titus being unreasonable. I still think titus is town regardless

Fire, LLD says you saw how she coached her scum buddies in the PYP game you replaced into. You should know that LLD makes people say things in their own words. And not putting her face or name on it. So she could have had me take this from my own standpoint. She says you need to shelf your paranoia for a day or two, and that this is team mafia and you're playing like you're staring down the gun from LLD and seeing ghosts.

I am not interested in limming your slot today. I am just calling out what I see.

LLD says this is the last bit for now because this is my (Dunn's) game and not hers to play, but in response to this:

She gets this but she is town reading you in large part because you don't have a single care about how you come across, but also have to understand as much as LLD can make the arguments she's made any game, it's also possible for you to see this as a possible outcome in any game. There's no real way for LLD to be able to prove that we are not bussing, except FA flipping town.

All we can do is to continue giving reads, be town, and hope that you find us. Our responses to you here are under the concept that you are in fact town and have a chance of finding us. LLD gets that you aren't going to flip us day one, that's a fair shout.

Not flipping us is good, reading us correctly is better.

appealy but towny response

I read 732 from FA above and feel I need some time to think about it. Or to break it up into little pieces.

-Klick is more analytical than DragonEater
-Dragoneater ignored Klick's analysis and voted for FA
-Dragoneater did not say anything else about FA
-You want Dragoneater to explain Klick's analysis in their own words

assertive

I'll ping LLD but keep in mind that this is also my opinion FA and here are my responses to your points:

what about me choosing dragon eater as next option is "defensive". He was not even casing me/voting me. he just drop 1 line to sheep klick.

DragonEater said:

So I am actually going to say Klick is a townlean of mine (and I was also convinced by their case that FA is scummy here).

So I think it is fair to say that moving the pressure onto DragonEater can be "defensive" here as they seem keen to vote for you, even if they are not currently voting you.

I'm really (and I mean really) not a fan of people who make linked reads like the one you made in day one. especially when they are so shallow like the one you made.

I don't think the read is shallow. I think Titus voting for very little to no reason and not having an explanation for that when called out is a compelling point.

titus vote on me as you said is without any explanation. how did you judge that its a bus or not without knowing any of our alignments or their reasons for voting? the fact you made the link based on nothing makes me think (again call it a gut feeling actually) that there is a chance your read on one side or both side of that link might be fake.

We don't have to "know" your alignments. We are scumreading Titus. We are scumreading you. We think the vote from Titus onto you looks like a bus for reasons we have explained. It feels dissonant with earlier takes and came out of nowhere. The link is not based on "nothing". On top of that, they seem very uninterested in adding any verbal pressure to you beyond their naked vote, and we've seen how into it she can get with Black.

I was voting klick who was the main person with the scum read (meta read) on me. I expressed a TR on klick, elaborated the meta read calmly and tried to elaborate why they have been wrong.

but I switched vote from klick to dragon eater who just said 4 words that they agree with klick not to defend against an accusation. my vote on dragon eater is not because he scum reads me,in contrary I think that line was fake and an instance of them going with the flow. so what I did was far from being defensive but I can see why would you think its reactionary.

-------------------

Dunn, extremely engaging, definitely a top poster/game conscious mover acc - is being assertive, and sorting slots or at least not afraid of dropping reads.

is consistent on his thought process. some positioning felt really easy place for a scum!dun to be. don't understand why he wants to hardblock the titus on black read but I understand his titus impression

though tbh he is being really undecisive about his titus read that is a bit bugging me. like he directly called titus as a scum steering him vs FB tvt, he also said titus is a scum bussing me who is another of their scum reads but then later when its about titus read on black he just calls titus "unfair" and not scum pushing for scum!reasons. so it feels unsettling the more I think about it.

null town lean more toward null

[Frozen Angel]

Save the dragon

p6
shea might be bad
i think this is town fb
black town

consistent method for catching up. dropping reads only but not explaining digesting them

ended up on the most readable case in game (klick meta read on me) not asserting me personally.

i think feysal could be scum and you're more likely to be scum, not that you're necessarily scum together

i like black's posting

can you write 1 or 2 lines about each of your scum reads. just a rough idea why you feel like that about each?

pg 20
dont like drixx

I guess I don't like you either. Please feel free to make a list of reasons for the dislike though. Those in game who have played with me will likely be interested and it will give them things to chew on if they're even bothering to try and sort me today.

oof scummy response

VOTE: drixx

why is that post scummy in your opinion?

i know but it sounded like he was affected by it

i'm a very vibey player and i sort of play by sense of smell, i don't really make cases and if i do they're pretty shoddy because the truth is i kind of go with my gut

you can still tell people why you smelling this or that to a point.

shea how do you feel about FA

I could see myself voting FA if black comes back with something that makes me think shes town.

this interaction seems a bit calculated. I am the general councios scum read of game it seems at this time, so scum trying to build up to vote on me?

That feels more like that than town trying to wagon me to sort me/other voters on me.

Why do you scumread me @Save The Dragons over the people you actually engaged with/talked about who you offered scumread on to the point of advertising wagoning me like that?

----------------

I will not be able to make a read on players like him in the early days at the very least. you all should make him work for his vote on my wagon so you can sort them later for it.

consistent flow in game - which is not really AI but is the only thing I can say about them. If you put a gun to my head I would say null - slight town in general but specially with their way for advertising voting me and how Thestatusquo responded I wanna drop them a tier to pure null.

[Frozen Angel]

Kuirbo

some thoughts before i go back to bed:
I hate day 1

Firebringer is town, at least that's my gut. I do find FB to be one of the hardest players for me to read on this site, but that's just me

leaning town on Shea, though I do disagree about not liking FB bringing Ali into the conversation. At the time, the only game open was ours and it's not like our teammates were busy with their own games. If anything, I kinda like FB/Ali's enthusiasm for getting Ali involved. Also it seems like FB's thought process has been wide open and well-explained.

Jury's still out on Dunn but I at least like the volume of content. good lord, that's not saying much at all, I really need to re-read this stuff in the morning.
Titus I like what she's been doing but I also know that I can't necessarily read her as easily as I can some other players. At least not on Day 1.
Kinda iffy on dragoneater, the whole "lol why is everyone townreading me" was kinda weird on page two when that wasn't a thing
I feel like fey kinda accidentally towntold in a way that wouldn't be intuitive to fake
I don't like the idea of massclaiming, at least not at the moment. I do agree with Fire that we should claim our Day 1 roles on Day 2 etc

that's where I am for now, see y'all in the morning

seems natural progression in general. one of only people to call out dragon eater self awareness I assume - I'm just seeing this post for the first time cause I somehow missed it on my skim earlier.

what you like about what titus been doing btw there?

RP is so far the opposite of tryhard

If you called FB's roleplay fluff, I'd be on board for that, even if I see it as NAI

But tryhard? Not even hardly

My point wasn't about him "try harding to sort the game" It was about try harding to post stuff. It felt like he senses an obligation to post a lot of stuff (including his RP stuff and the vote he did and he cased hard but was not about much to begin with) at that stage of game.

VOTE: Dunnstral

Cowboy turns back to Old Man (Dunnstral) who nows begins rambling nonsense as if he is schizo.

Cowboy: Hey, Old Man. What in tarnation are you yammering on about?
Old Man: Sonny boy, did you even read?
Cowboy: Read what? [The cowboy is about to figure out talking to this man might be a waste of his time but continues anyways]
Cowboy: Theres nothing to read here. [he points in the general area]
Cowboy: What are you doing in this saloon?

why did he feel the need to do this when RVS window was closing and he was one of people who was doing it? I feel like dunn didn't really like how FB rp'ed in this when FB was just horseplaying with no intentions which cause the clash they had later on. so yeah by that word I didn't mean FB was being serious. I just mean FB was doing a lot of random stuff just for sake of doing them. if it makes more sense.

Anyways I'll iso him later on too

I don't think Pink is nearly as scummy as he was in the game we played together a few weeks back, which is really saying something because PB was a third party that game and I let the rest of the town talk me out of pushing him day 1.

This game is weird, Mala and I both feel there's this bizarre vibe in this game where it seems like people are sidestepping me like some of y'all just don't want the smoke and hassle of arguing with me on day 1. This isn't necessarily directed at anyone in particular, more of a "general feel" of the game.

In this game, scum do not have fake claims. They get real roles assigned to them from the same pool as town every morning. It says here that the roles are not granted to them though, and that left it ambiguous in my mind whether they would even be told what they were. I could just about imagine a game where scum would need to keep track of which roles town had claimed during previous days, maybe even making up a fake claim and pretending it had been assigned to a dead player on the days they did not claim it themselves. Getting ahead of that might have been beneficial, but as already stated, it does not work.

Right, so one thing to keep in mind is that if you, say, get a neighbor role with someone else and you both actually get the role, then you're essentially masons because you're confirmed town to one another.

I like how kuribo been progressing on dragon eater and I like him complaining about being ignored cause he evidently was. this all just fit and feel consistent with what I expect that mind state to be

I do have at least one super secret scum read that I'm not willing to jump into on day one anyway just because holy shit it's not worth the hassle of trying to make fetch happen this early. Some people are just hard / annoying to elim, esp on day 1, so I get it. Esp since I recognize that people see me the same way.

Buuuuut if you think I'm talking about you, then I very well might be and you should just NK me tonight

you should just say what you think. It might get lost in thread for now if people don't wanna support it but its something town can trace back to in later days based on flips and info.

This game is weird, Mala and I both feel there's this bizarre vibe in this game where it seems like people are sidestepping me like some of y'all just don't want the smoke and hassle of arguing with me on day 1. This isn't necessarily directed at anyone in particular, more of a "general feel" of the game.

Are you someone the wolves should be afraid of?

I'll ISO you here in a little and engage with you

Eh, I meant more along the lines of I'm a pain in the ass to argue with and I used to be... ummm, let's say really really toxic. I haven't been elim'd as town in over ten years now, so it's def a pain in the ass for scum to try and push me altogether. I don't play that way anymore, but you know how reputations go.

I did have a streak of a number of games a few years back where I tunneled on scum day one, but I'm also rusty. The last game I played, (the first in over a year, and my first non-hydra game in like, two or three) the one I mentioned to Pink just now, my reads were... I don't wanna say *bad*, but they were just left of center. But I got NK'd anyway, mostly because of the massclaim and the fact that I was a doctor.

This is a different case of self awareness than what dragon eater is showing. dragon feels nervous about game state and that's why they are self aware but kuribo is more uh self aware to use it as a utility kind of sense to sort

FAs takes all feel...uh. Bad. Extremely bad.

If someone who is sus of dragoneater could tell me why they think the interaction with me was more likely to come from scum I'd appreciate it. FA and Kuribo both expressed this view I think.

Oh, here it is.

More like to come from scum than town is kind of a loaded way of saying it. I'd say that my gut tells me in this case it's worth pursuing whether it does come from scum or town. It's a jumping off point.

PEdit: I'm not ignoring you, dude, there are a lot of posts, I missed one, relax

"FAs takes all feel...uh. Bad. Extremely bad. "

@Thestatusquo missed it on my skims earlier but why didn't you feel the need to engage with me about them? which take of mine feels bad/extremly bad to you and why?

also jump off me kuribo, I'm here to engage with people about my reads.

This one too. I'm interested in poking your dragon read because you seem to be reacting to things exactly opposite of me.

As I said, at the time I didn't see it as something you wanted a response to, I just figured you were throwing in your two cents. You do that a lot. And I don't say that as a criticism, you've mentioned yourself in this game that it's part of your style to comment on the goingson around you. I think that's fine that you do that. But you do have to understand that when you have dozens and dozens of posts, yes, there will be instances where people just figure you're offering commentary / putting your view on the record rather than asking for further input. What I'm saying is that if you do have direct questions, I'm not the brightest guy, it helps to be direct.

My scumread on Dragon isn't super strong. I even have a stronger scumread that, like I mention, just isn't worth pushing today. Interacting with Dragon for what I saw as "oh shit, yeah, I should have questioned why people called me town on page 2 instead of just bragging about it" is as good a jump-in point as any for me. Because that's ultimately how I saw his action in that. It was a retcon. An attempt to fix an oversight. Perhaps from inexperienced scum, perhaps from town who didn't realize that it can be indicative of buddying. My job here is to figure out which, and coming at Dragon for it is the best way I know how to do that.

I like this progression

I'm really not reading any of this shit about multiball

Unless and until I see a flipped scum with a team name and a different color, I'm assuming it's one scum team

towny reaction.

------------------

my strongest town read I would say between the people I did ISO and I didn't notice them much over my skim before.

not sure why furtive dropped that line that he is sus, I asked them, and still no details but I'll share that too when he responds.

[Frozen Angel]

Drixx

FB, Kuribo, Dunn and TSQ all seem town to me. I don't like Klick's ISO, most especially the re-entry from VLA.

I'm still on V/LA

Okay. But there's a clear 220 post gap after you announced V/LA, and you clearly made a re-entry with a few posts in a row, and they were bad. Responding with "I'm still on V/LA" is disingenuous at best.

poking klick when he was going on and off and posting in game is consistent

drixx what in dragon eater iso did you find scummy and why didn't you ever elaborate that?

I told Black she looked way less "multi tasking" than her other town games, I don't feel that way anymore and realized that I was getting blindspotted via Titus and Shea

I haven't looked at any other games yet as I didn't want to spoil my initial impressions. If Black's play was organic, you would expect the

distribution of engagement

to look WAY different than it does.

can you elaborate on that? you think black is being hyper focused on the people she wanna talk with?

@pink ball yes it was at you.

I will, but at this point Black has been pretty much contributing and the only times that she has been out of focus has been when either you or Titus call her scummy for not contributing, making it a self-fulfilling prophecy rather than the factual truth

Check out Black in ISO and then go back and see how it looks in comparison to the way the game is flowing. It LOOKS super opportunistic and reactionary. Also tally up Black's responses/questions by slot and see where she is and is not paying attention. It should be illuminating.

I told Black she looked way less "multi tasking" than her other town games, I don't feel that way anymore and realized that I was getting blindspotted via Titus and Shea

I haven't looked at any other games yet as I didn't want to spoil my initial impressions. If Black's play was organic, you would expect the distribution of engagement to look WAY different than it does.

I've been constantly reading the game so I've seen Black's posts in a live action manner, maybe that's why we disagree here? I understand the 'opportunistic' vibe but to me it's explained because Black has been engaging the game constantly with whoever is active at the time and both Titus and Shea had spikes of activity and their main focus was Black, so she had to interact a lot about her own slot instead of focusing on other things.

I think there is merit in solving this puzzle though, especially if Titus ends being town and me recognizing that would be huge, so I'll have to reread. Right now I'm building my scumcase on DragonEater though.

So if your impression that Black is responding organically to people as they post is correct, the # of posts at/about each slot should show a pretty strong correlation to the activity of each slot. But it doesn't.

this is actually a very mathematical mindset and I dig it. I need to verify when checking black but I can see this as a possible hunt.

I do not have the knowledge to tell whether that argument about graph correlation has merit or not.

I mean ... you can just map Black's engagement ratio with each slot in her town games, and them map the engagement per slot here and you're gonna see a bunch of games that have similar outputs and then this game as an outlier. That isn't hard evidence in and of itself, but paired with actually evaluating Black's posts and how Black has responded to Titus and myself, it starts to look pretty bad.

but you said you didn't check her meta?

Kowah thinks drixx is scummy

and kind of a neutral read on feysal. I can elaborate on those if people want. I asked him to look at those two people.

Korina mentioned something about DE being town and FB being scummy but I think they've only read a few pages so far.

I will tell ceph he smells esp because he hasn't posted any thoughts yet.

So ... you refused to give any reasons for your own read, and now you come in with an ATA read?

Bro...

drixx engaging with save the dragon feels - ultra defensive for drixx. idk why would he care about being scumread by that particular player to engage him that much about it

you know? I know/agree you gotta engage with people scum reading you for their reasoning but save the dragon is not posting reasons for anything, so why care so much about their read on YOU over everything else?

Drixx out of curiosity what are you trying to accomplish?

I know that std is trying to accomplish. He's trying to annoy you, and he's succeeding.

But your motives in this little exchange are a mystery to me. I don't think you actually believe you're going to get more out of std than this.

Suppose I'm roped today or killed tonight and then you know for sure I'm town. How does STD look then? Town should never refuse to explain reads because in any future where their alignment is confirmed, their thought process is on display to help their team.

At the moment there's also nothing else to engage with sadly.

Also ... I'm not annoyed, I promise.

still factually true but why care only about their read on you? they also dropped a random read on many other people without explaining any of them that would still go against what you said here

---------------------------

I have to put drixx a bit lower than null toward scum read. He is a very fact checking/mathematical/logic driven player so this might be why I get this impression but he feels hyper focused.

for someone who spent half of his posts explaining why people need to elaborate reads, he didn't elaborate his own dragon eater read/vote yet and he clearly doesn't care about rest of save the dragon reads just the one he has on him. doesn't make sense in my head

[Frozen Angel]

each of these iso dives take a lot of time. but I'll do them all for sure - hopefully all be done before night. feel free to ask me stuff and engage with me about any in meantime

[Pink Ball]

VOTE: DragonEater

[kuribo]

My to-do list for today involves going over the TSQ / Black interactions as well as reading the stuff I've skimmed over in regards to Drixx

what you like about what titus been doing btw there?

At the time I really liked Titus' investigative tone. Early game is tough and it didn't seem like she was setting up the pins, so to speak, rather that she was trying to figure out the ongoing game state. That said, I kinda go back and forth on Titus in my head at various points. I do know that if she's town and she has her head in the game, she will mercilessly corner and attack her scumreads. But I also recognize internally that I've never been able to read Titus very well. There are certain styles of play that I struggle somewhat with sorting (TSQ's is another, though I do believe he's town here) so I'm trying to adjust to that.

My point wasn't about him "try harding to sort the game" It was about try harding to post stuff. It felt like he senses an obligation to post a lot of stuff (including his RP stuff and the vote he did and he cased hard but was not about much to begin with) at that stage of game.

I just don't see it that way at all, if anything I see Firebringer's early posting as more town, not less.

why did he feel the need to do this when RVS window was closing and he was one of people who was doing it? I feel like dunn didn't really like how FB rp'ed in this when FB was just horseplaying with no intentions which cause the clash they had later on. so yeah by that word I didn't mean FB was being serious. I just mean FB was doing a lot of random stuff just for sake of doing them. if it makes more sense.

It makes sense, but I just don't think it happened. At that stage in the game, he could very easily have just done nothing at all. Fluff in the RVS stage is NAI to me. There's not really a scummy benefit to it because people tend to just wash over RVS posts anyway. It's easy to say in hindsight that the "RVS window was closing," but in the moment that RVS is happening, it's not always as easy to recognize that it's over until it's actually over. Does that make sense?

[GuyInFreezer]

Today is my big moving day so I won’t really be here today

[kuribo]

@TSQ: Forgive me if you've addressed this and I've missed it, but:

You've tried to sell me on DragonEater as town. If he's town then someone on his wagon must be scum, right? At least one, if not several? Who's the scum on his wagon and why?

You've also asserted that you think it would be "too on-the-nose" for scumdragon to say, "Oh, right, I should have questioned that, lemme put in appearances right now." Keeping in mind that if he's scum he may be receiving coaching from 4 or 5 (or even 6 but for fucks sake let's not get back into setup spec) people, (Team Mafia teammates + a scumteam) does that change your opinion? Jeez, that's way too many parentheses for one sentence, lemme go find me an editor on fiverr or something. Okay, but anyway, what I'm asking you is if you feel that he WOULD be encouraged to try and paint someone as scum among the "hey thanks for townreading me everyone!" group. And yes, I know you go so far as to say "Well, find me one example of it ever happening," but I think that's an easy thing to say when you know as well as I do that there have been hundreds of hundreds of newbies pass through this site and a couple of thousand games at this point, and ain't nobody combing through all of that to find it. I'd be willing to bet that it almost certainly has happened on at least a couple of occasions. You could just as easily say things like "Show me one example of scum counter-claiming masons with their own buddy," or "Show me one example of a townie claiming to be a mason with a random player." I've seen both of those things happen. (Okay fine, in both cases DGB and I were the catalysts but I digress) The situation I'm proposing with Dragon is FAR more plausible than either of those situations that absolutely occurred.

You can't really argue that it would be "too on the nose" to do that for a newbie because while that may be your intuition, people do not always take the best course of action, nor do they always act rationally. Was he coached to respond the way he did? Did he just do it without realizing it was on the nose? Was he just not thinking at all because he panicked? I read you as town, Shea (mostly anyway, your playstyle is another that I struggle with getting a read on), and while I value your opinion here, I simply think you're incorrect and I find it hard to believe that you haven't considered the alternative that... y'know, maybe he just didn't realize how "on the nose" it would be.

[Pink Ball]

I do know that if she's town and she has her head in the game, she will mercilessly corner and attack her scumreads

Thank you for this, both me and Mena were considering that Titus was going for a "pick a slot and tunnel" approach as scum, but I had a small but lingering feeling that this was something Titus would do much more as town than scum