TM 2023 | Open: PYP S_TM | Endgame

[Bellaphant]

TBf both mena and datisi (and ceph a bit) have takes that are just wildly different from mine and I'm struggling with them to work out if the takes are scummy, rather than just 'wrong'. Like, datisi seems to see a lot of what you /I think in a negative light, me as scum reads are super weird, etc.

[Bellaphant]

Ceph I do just think plays/has experienced pkay that is very different to me; his slight beligerance over the low info lim seemed like he really thought he was correct and I was wrong, rather than him trying to steer the lim onto the slot, if that makes sense?

[Datisi]

TBf both mena and datisi (and ceph a bit) have takes that are just wildly different from mine and I'm struggling with them to work out if the takes are scummy, rather than just 'wrong'. Like, datisi seems to see a lot of what you /I think in a negative light, me as scum reads are super weird, etc.

if you're town i would like to work with you, but i can't help but feel the imaginality townreads are ??? and suddenly people are trying to push onto staeg, who's top draft, with paper thin reasoning and they don't have a problem with that. like, i don't think the team is smt like imag/bella/ali because that would be quite something, but i can't shake off the feeling that *something* is wrong about this

i ctrl+f'ed your iso, i can't find reasons for staeg being scum other than "they're kinda ghosty" which like. meh. can you give me a tldr of what you think makes them scum?

[Alisae]

Nothing is wrong with this lmfao

[Bellaphant]

Cools. Part of it is I really have no reason to tr them: Ans neither does aby of my team. There are slots that produce discussion, but nothing about steag: I tend to find slots I think nothing about end up being scum more often than not.

Then, the massive uptick in his posting when under any pressure looks really coached..plus, a lot of their pressure is in a few places, rather than engagement as a whole. Their scum reads don't make sense and they seem self conscious about this too.

Plus, there's literally zero appetite in my team for imag: I think relying on the numbers is poor and like, the claim when it came is slightly more likely to be town than scum? I think if I was scum with imag I'd be hard bussing and very much pushing no claim.

[Alisae]

TBf both mena and datisi (and ceph a bit) have takes that are just wildly different from mine and I'm struggling with them to work out if the takes are scummy, rather than just 'wrong'. Like, datisi seems to see a lot of what you /I think in a negative light, me as scum reads are super weird, etc.

Tbh w/ Mena I feel like need more. Maybe I need to talk to him more but it’s not like I can’t see what he posted on the page prior as wolf posting and the post I quoted with aaaaaaaaaaaa seemed like subtle manipulation towards lld to me.

[Bellaphant]

Datisi just has more posts/content so I can see more of it as town, I can see all of menas last page as Wolfy really easily.

Also, on the steag thing, it's also interaction. I know I'm guilty of this back but I feel I've 'interacted' with every other slot in the game, whereas the most content we got fro. Steag was the series of coached looking posts after there was pressure.

[Alisae]

Those staeg posts made me feel nothing

[Datisi]

thanks bella

my suspicion on imag never had anything to do with The Numbers

though i can see what you're saying about their engagement/uptick in posting once under pressure. i don't really think it's enough to try to go there considering everything else, but

[Datisi]

this would be so much easier if i knew anything about staeg beforehand wee

also, on mena - i see how his posts on the last page could be seen as scummy, but i think overall he's still much more townie than scum-him usually has been recently. like he doesn't feel like he wants to commit scooter ankle every time he's posting ig

[Bellaphant]

I didn't mean to suggest it did

I honestly believe that imag's claim, while weird af, makes even less sense as scum. Their early lld push is weird af as scum too? I kinda liked their engagement with mith about it.

[Bellaphant]

It's not our strongest read by far, like I said dv has it is 'maybe, but not today '

[Datisi]

oh, i know you didn't mean to suggest it did, it was more of a hint to ask what you thought about the things i said about imag before >_>

[Bellaphant]

I just disagree with your take in 1677, especially about the motivation for pushing the top four - what they are saying is just as likely to be true, although slightly less logical. I don't think the way you are suggesting they would behave as town is the way I would.

[Bellaphant]

Like, I don't disagree that the way you are looking at the sitch is about what's optimal and I think you are correct, it's just.... people are weird and I don't think you'd have to be scum to have amde the choices they've made.

[Bellaphant]

There's a bunch of people that just don't appear in steags iso barely at all, and even when some of the rest do it's all in relation to lld! It's...weird af.

[imaginality]

good one
remember to respond to this when you're back, I do want to understand what was happening there

Also, having thought about it a little more myself, I think there's also actually a possible advantage to limming top 4 today that might not apply tomorrow.

also didn't notice this the first time around at all, but now @imaginality was this meant as a breadcrumb or what happened here? surely you didn't only then realize that a PR getting lynched would get you a PR?

This was a slight breadcrumb, in that I knew I wouldn't be able to explain my comment there until I roleclaimed. Where you're off track though, is that comment wasn't about me getting a PR, in and of itself - if we lim a VT today I still get a PR if scum (or vigs) nightkill one. What I'd realised was that (from my perspective) if we're going to lim top 4 I'd rather do that today (when I know the PR's coming to me who I know is town), compared with tomorrow (when chances are I already have some different PR). Like in a world where a top draft player claims AwesomePR, and people believe I'm town, it's a little less risky to lim them today compared to the same scenario tomorrow.

That advantage doesn't apply if people are scumreading me, so that's why I didn't allude to it earlier, because at game start I was expecting not to be particularly townread D1. But then I actually was being fairly widely townread up until everyone hated 961 and 964 (the very post you're quoting lol).

[Marashu]

imag would you mind explaining your Staeg progression from 968 to 1659 to 1673? I feel like I might be misinterpreting 1659 so I'd like to hear more from you about it.

[imaginality]

Datisi just has more posts/content so I can see more of it as town, I can see all of menas last page as Wolfy really easily.

Also, on the steag thing, it's also interaction. I know I'm guilty of this back but I feel I've 'interacted' with every other slot in the game, whereas the most content we got fro. Steag was the series of coached looking posts after there was pressure.

I agree with Bella about all this. Also I find the timing of Menalque voting me in 1722 right after Datisi called for consolidation and getting a lim soon quite convenient for scum looking for a time to join the wagon. Especially since Menalque hadn't (hasn't?) caught up so is going off his teammate's reads before having a chance to form his own view.

And agreed on Staeg's posting seeming to be a reaction to pressure coming on them. I alluded to that increase in posts, and Staeg justified their initial vote on me with:

tldr is I just haven't seen anything that makes me go +town on him (the first time he mentioned the mith scum case I felt quite positively, but the followup/responses to mith's responses didn't go well) and every other post pushes me just a bit further in the scummy direction, lemme go dig for examples

And then while posting the examples a little while later, they still don't give any view on my roleclaim which came right after their vote on me. Which feels unnatural for a townie not to comment on but I could see it from scum wanting to fencesit on it or just focused on finding some posts they can criticise rather than genuinely solving me.

With people I townread (Alisae, Bella) townreading LLD I've been considering what if I'm wrong there. I can see how that could fit with a gamestate where mafia weren't being too directive and could sit back while LLD and me were the main wagons that looked possible lims, but as LLD wagon faded and attention started coming on other slots more they've tried to push my lim harder to get me across.

In a town!LLD world, {Staeg, mith, Menalque, Cephrir, Datisi} are my POE. I think Staeg might have been more active earlier if buddies with LLD, but like I say, maybe my LLD read is wrong.

So I'll also answer the wagon consolidation call and
VOTE: Staeg

[imaginality]

@Marashu - you can add the above post to the progression lol!

968 was basically vibes of feeling like "okay Staeg doesn't mind a spot of pressure so probably not nervous scum".
1159 was "what do other people make of Staeg"
1673 was initial take on "Staeg's more recent posts felt off" but without having time to dig into them yet

And 1768 is after having reread and feeling my bad vibes about Staeg are justified.

Staeg's still not my top scumread but I'm not getting LLD or mith limmed and Staeg is definitely a wagon I am happy to join and put my name to.

(I can definitely see Bella's theory that Staeg is getting guidance from their team as a possibility. Staeg's recent posts about me for example could have been based on stuff from their team chat. And I can imagine a teammate saying "you should keep the focus on imaginality and get him limmed before you become a viable counterwagon")

[Staeg]

good one
remember to respond to this when you're back, I do want to understand what was happening there

Also, having thought about it a little more myself, I think there's also actually a possible advantage to limming top 4 today that might not apply tomorrow.

also didn't notice this the first time around at all, but now @imaginality was this meant as a breadcrumb or what happened here? surely you didn't only then realize that a PR getting lynched would get you a PR?

This was a slight breadcrumb, in that I knew I wouldn't be able to explain my comment there until I roleclaimed. Where you're off track though, is that comment wasn't about me getting a PR, in and of itself - if we lim a VT today I still get a PR if scum (or vigs) nightkill one.

That's true regardless of whether we lim low or high and definitely doesn't factor into considerations that only apply today and not tomorrow

What I'd realised was that (from my perspective) if we're going to lim top 4 I'd rather do that today (when I know the PR's coming to me who I know is town), compared with tomorrow (when chances are I already have some different PR). Like in a world where a top draft player claims AwesomePR, and people believe I'm town, it's a little less risky to lim them today compared to the same scenario tomorrow.

That advantage doesn't apply if people are scumreading me, so that's why I didn't allude to it earlier, because at game start I was expecting not to be particularly townread D1. But then I actually was being fairly widely townread up until everyone hated 961 and 964 (the very post you're quoting lol).

And here you're thinking about peoples' perception of you, not whether or not town get an additional useful night action - what I would expect a town reasoning process to be here is "if we lynch a scum PR d1, then that's one less night action for scum and one more for town" (unless it's the night 3 vig), but this is conspicuously absent in favor of whether you're townread and will survive longer

[Staeg]

Re: the wagon on me
Everyone who's going "hmmmm coaching??" is in another reality, idk who among Fate, DGB and Feysal you expect is coming in with the "ah yes put 3/4 of the people who have had wagons on them in your scumbucket, don't worry about making it coherent tho nobody will notice" pro tips
While typing this out I did notice that "coaching by Staeg's scumteam" is a much more reasonable hypothesis, but somehow that's not what anyone is saying

Idk what to say on the interaction bit, I ask questions that I want answered and then 50% of the time they just don't; I'm asleep during most of the Alisae posting parties that spawn 6 pages and they rarely contain anything I want to respond to after everyone's fucked off; I don't have anything I want to ask specific townreads and I'm not into the whole "hello can you give your top 3 and bottom 3 reads" thing

[Staeg]

And then while posting the examples a little while later, they still don't give any view on my roleclaim which came right after their vote on me. Which feels unnatural for a townie not to comment on but I could see it from scum wanting to fencesit on it or just focused on finding some posts they can criticise rather than genuinely solving me.

Ah yes, instead of going with an easy "idk this looks like a claim coming from scum" I actually wanted to sit on the fence specifically related to your claim
Your claim on its own doesn't move me in any direction, if you're town you picked it and claimed it for the reasons that you did and if you're scum they were reasons that you already had in your back pocket from the moment a wagon started forming on you - it's the inconsistencies like the one I just mentioned that make a difference between s!imag claiming UB and t!imag claiming UB

[Staeg]

(I can definitely see Bella's theory that Staeg is getting guidance from their team as a possibility. Staeg's recent posts about me for example could have been based on stuff from their team chat. And I can imagine a teammate saying "you should keep the focus on imaginality and get him limmed before you become a viable counterwagon")

How are you posting this right after "looks like Staeg wanted to fencesit on imaginality's claim"

[Staeg]

lynch

fuck I'm sorry