Mini Normal 2304: Conway's Game Of Life [GAME OVER!]

[humaneatingmonkey]

I maintain that I do not believe that I ever escalated my language to verbal abuse or anything that might be described as "going at someone's throat". Suspicion, interrogation, and pressure are a natural part of this game. I'm willing for an outside arbiter to judge the situation accordingly and make their sanctions, but otherwise, I suggest we move on from this.

[Quiet Owl]

please know that i use the phrase "going at each others throats" to describe behaviour such as the arguments my younger siblings get into over minecraft. i have no interest in judging people's conduct at the moment, and if i thought i needed to call out verbal abuse i would quite literally use the phrase "verbal abuse." in that sense, i have moved on.

i am still pushing for an elimination. this gamestate is unproductive.

[humaneatingmonkey]

go quiet owl show us the push

[Quiet Owl]

go quiet owl show us the push

give me a moment to do this.

i'm going to iso esp and hme and then pick and stick to a vote.

[KittyTacky]

Power cut off yesterday sorry, didn't want to do a VC on mobile.

[Quiet Owl]

part one of the isoing: hme

Monkey's eagerness to control the game feels scum-motivated. And this is only exacerbated by the fact that they have really gone hard on the proverbial low hanging fruit.

The lining up of [eliminations] is also always something I am watchful of. In both cases, if owl is town, monkey is just being negligent if town, and if owl is scum it's a very aggressive theater strat. The common thread being that monkey lining up [eliminations] is poo poo.

vote: humaneatingmonkey

earlier i thought this was most likely to be scum trying to cast doubt on the trustworthiness of a town player.
- i do not like the contradiction in aggression based reads. (me being town but hme supposedly being scum for doing something quite similar. it'd be reasonable to think i was trying to control the game with my post #2, but no-one seems to have thought of that.)
- really starting to see why espeon got this impression though.
- hme hyperposts, asks a lot of questions that intentionally or not seem to stall alternate wagons to espeon, but doesn't often make statements with reads in them.
- let's look at some of the statements they've made.

this is a plausible and well thought out post. it's also quite easy to come up with as mafia because you'd know definitively if the mafia were doing this and you wouldn't have to come up with a convincing lie.

Spoiler:

bob walk me through your wagon analysis and i'll walk you through mine.

let's say Espe is scum - do you think all three of them will combine into one wagon in case Espe flips scum?

for me, obviously not.. right? so of course, they'll probably scatter. in this situation, espe is still on me - so there are only two people making that effort into creating new wagons. now... how many counterwagons have been made in the past days, and how many of them make you think they're actually hitting scum?

So far, there's been you. Would you claim mafia?
Then there's Hu Tao. What's your read on Hu Tao?
Then there's a sheep counterwagon forming. What's your read on sheep?

So now it's your turn bob. Walk me through your wagonomics.

this interaction that strikes me as weird. i don't see how bob snapped at hme here. this just looks like bob calling out hme for something that is in fact +scum behaviour.
so why try and reframe it as "woah there buddy! it is unreasonable to question me about me questioning people! stop doing that!"???
this seems really hypocritical to me. by all means, correct me, but i don't think i'm exaggerating things here.

Spoiler:

Difference between pushing as scum and simply pushing against anothers ideas. ive seen town do it and scum do it. but doesnt chnage that you heavily responding to anything that runs counter to espe is scum. As your 2 two posts were in response to a question to sheep which was also proceded by one to dragon. Dragon vote is odd, i can certainly see him not voting espe based on his read list but if he was to move his vote of drew i would of expected it to move to me first. He paints me and drew most likely to be scum yet he goes to one his neut reads.

one that is actively pushing agaisnt espe rather natural progression of his reads which would be to vote me. I just dont get it


in and old game scum pt. his meta could of changed since was many years ago (2019) around the time i still played but pretty much says he has tendancy to bus day one

but doesnt chnage that you heavily responding to anything that runs counter to espe is scum.

Well that's kinda what the game's about, isn't it? You have your ideas. I have mine. We talk it out. Why does this bother you?

in and old game scum pt. his meta could of changed since was many years ago (2019) around the time i still played but pretty much says he has tendancy to bus day one

You played with him before?

Let's start over.

Instead of you snapping at me, can we discuss our reads?

Read #232 and #233 again and imagine I'm Mr. Rogers or something.

actually, there don't seem to be many statements from hme at all??
"a big shrug is what I have with Quiet Owl" is not a statement though i do believe it to be a sane reading of my slot.

Spoiler:

basic, or wooden?? And I tend to assume the better of people's mafia play!! To my own detriment!!

He posted a lot better on his return. I'm not sure what to make of that. I would have given him the townread if he acted a bit more consistent, but I'm not even sure that's a realistic expectation to set for his slot. A big shrug is what I have with Quiet Owl.

I'm more interested in Espe now, but I've been in trapped in ego showdowns before because my N A T U R A L L E A D E R S H I P S K I L L S make people paranoid. I'm not sure I'll be very good at sorting Espe with his current angle, but I won't miss him if he's gone. Somehow an itch scratches behind my head: Could scum!Espe have targetted me because I'm the anti-low hanging fruit? Maybe scum!Espe would have framed scum attacking the low hanging fruit and cheekily do the opposite here.

this doesn't make any sense to me. this looks like a theory outside of the realm of plausibility without proof to back it. not nearly as implausible as "the claimed mason pair are ACTUALLY a serial killer duo", which i saw in a different game from a different person recently, but it is reminding me heavily of their posting style.

Spoiler:

Also I would ask that we not call other people’s play bad or poor!! There’s no need to do that even if it’s a strategy, and I think there are better ways to approach talking about someone!!!!!

I agree. I also read the situation as scum!Espe calling the players on his wagon bad as a strategy. Perhaps to discredit.

First, I'm not sure it's believable to be calling sheep bad town here. sheep should be suspicious in his eyes for his position in Espe's wagon -- sheep actually generates new ideas to fuel Espe's doom.

Heck, I feel suspicious about sheep's place in Espe's wagon. Scum has historically gathered behind me to push me into eliminating town. But I'm not sure that's what's happening here.

I also find his reframing of his push as unbelievable. He went from describing me as experienced scum pace setter and narrative controller... to a bad player that he doesn't want anyone to listen to because of ego? So does that mean he sees me - his primary vote and suspect - as town now? Help me here, as I'm not sure why he'd reframe his position otherwise. Does it mean he doesn't really see me as scum?

Nevertheless, I will not remove my vote. At this point, I heard enough. I will give the town a favor by not continuing to cross-examine Espe as that might be endless spam and will make an environment where scum can cover up easily. Although I hope those who disagree with me will try their best to dissuade me and those who agree with me to vote with me.

i will not vote until after i post and write up espeon's iso, but man. i am heavily leaning towards voting hme at the moment.

[KittyTacky]

Flavor 1.4

Block

Block is an extremely well-known and common still life that was found by John Conway in 1970. In terms of its 4 cells it is tied with tub as the smallest still life, and in terms of its 2 × 2 bounding box it is the outright smallest. It is also the only known still life that is a polyomino, and the only finite strict still life where all living cells have three neighbors. Its small size, ability to act as a catalyst, and simple glider syntheses make it extremely useful in the construction of larger patterns.

The block was one of the patterns described in the original 1970 article by Martin Gardner that introduced the Game of Life to the world.

Blocks serve useful in the construction of larger still lifes. Due to its high density, orthogonal and diagonal connections (like those seen in ship-tie) would overpopulate any present cells, preventing any patterns with this arrangement from being useful in a still life (this reaction can instead be used for oscillators such as beacon and variants of star). As such, its uses are limited to acting as an induction coil.

Given the high symmetry of the block (the highest a pattern can have on the square grid), cis-, trans- and other isomeric variants only arise if the object stabilised by the block is itself of a sufficiently low symmetry.

Source: LifeWiki

Vote Count 1.4

With 13 votes in play, it takes 7 to eliminate.

Espeonage

(4): Peregrine, humaneatingmonkey, sheepsaysmeep, Random Nurse

Quiet Owl

(3): bob3141, Hu Tao, Save The Dragons

Hu Tao

(2): Dunnstral, Quiet Owl

Not_Mafia

(1): Not_Mafia

humaneatingmonkey

(1): Espeonage

bob3141

(1): Doctor Drew

Not Voting

(1): Bellaphant

Deadline:

(expired on 2023-07-04 10:00:00).

Mod notes:

Searching for a replacement for Espeonage and Bellaphant.

Bellaphant is also in Not Voting.

I wish our mod didn't abandon us.

I'm sorry this won't happen again I promise.

[humaneatingmonkey]

correct me, but i don't think i'm exaggerating things here

that's a hilarious side comment

[bob3141]

So Owl if the first spoiler post could be made by town or scum. Why do you simply not think that it isnt AI and not worth mentionin

Owl why do you think im calling HEM out as scummy in your second spoiler when I specifically state " ive seen town do it and scum do it". Certainly wasnt scummy action but a non AI one. It was only annoying as it was late and it was was during my working week. Feels like your trying to put words in my mouth to justify your own read



Also i dont get what you mean by HEM not makign many statements. Regardless if you think HEM is town or scum i cant see any one honestly being able to come up with that HEM hasnt many statments. IS it just stamenents regards to you or all game your claiming?



On your fourth point/spoiler what HEM is claiming is something that happens quite often in different ways. In the past ive tried pushing scum and they would respond with deflections and Espe calling sheep bad town could be considered a delfection here. So it entirly plausible town would make such a post even if you dont agree with it.

[Quiet Owl]

So Owl if the first spoiler post could be made by town or scum. Why do you simply not think that it isnt AI and not worth mentionin

Owl why do you think im calling HEM out as scummy in your second spoiler when I specifically state " ive seen town do it and scum do it". Certainly wasnt scummy action but a non AI one. It was only annoying as it was late and it was was during my working week. Feels like your trying to put words in my mouth to justify your own read



Also i dont get what you mean by HEM not makign many statements. Regardless if you think HEM is town or scum i cant see any one honestly being able to come up with that HEM hasnt many statments. IS it just stamenents regards to you or all game your claiming?



On your fourth point/spoiler what HEM is claiming is something that happens quite often in different ways. In the past ive tried pushing scum and they would respond with deflections and Espe calling sheep bad town could be considered a delfection here. So it entirly plausible town would make such a post even if you dont agree with it.

here is a summarised version of that post.
1. HEM is widely townread.
2. HEM's posts appear to mostly be NAI.
3. HEM has a habit of rephrasing what people said so that it means something plausibly different.
4. the majority of HEM's posts are questions. they do not often post reads or analyse other people's posts.
5. sticking to asking questions seems like a good way to hide as scum. it is harder to ask a bad question than it is to make a bad false read.
6. focusing fire on a player doing a bad job of explaining their suspicions is a good way to prevent people from hunting your teammates.
7. i need to reach a conclusion about espeon before i can figure out HEM. i am doing that at the moment


first spoiler: my point

is

that it's NAI

and

that it was also one of the few posts to catch my eye as ones where HEM isn't just questioning people.
second spoiler: i saw "but doesnt chnage that you heavily responding to anything that runs counter to espe is scum." even though you did say "ive seen town do it and scum do it", i don't know how that could've been interpreted in any other way than "i am currently scumreading you."
third: see point 4 of summary, "the majority of HEM's posts are questions. they do not often post reads or analyse other people's posts."
fourth: i will note that HEM never claimed that to be a deflection, just a "strategy, perhaps to discredit", but your reasoning for HEM's suspicion makes sense.

[humaneatingmonkey]

at least Quiet Owl believes me to be sane, of all things

[Quiet Owl]

the isoing part two
(woohoo)

the main driving point behind the espeonage wagon is "setting up HEM as a boogeyman + failing to answer questions well + generally being snippy"
i think suspicion of HEM is warranted, given their hyperposting without much substance. mostly they just ask a lot of questions, which seems to be giving them townpoints that are undeserved.
originally i thought HEM and espeonage's interactions were town vs town tunnelling, but i have realised that their focusing on espeonage would also be a good way to prevent mafia from being spotted.

so i'm going to see if there's anything about espeonage that personally pings me as scummy.

i find that scum often claims to townread me for some reason. but i have also never made an entrance like this before, so i suppose it is reasonable to expect people to read me differently.

Spoiler:

Gonna go and say I'm soul reading owl as town here. Feels like someone that doesn't play forum much, but plays irl or something and isn't used to shit hitting l-1 before they even post in the thread bc it's fucking funny.

i had the same thought before this was posted, so i was inclined to townread him. however i think this is an easy post for scum.

Spoiler:

Nurse has good measured probe. Either town or good scum posturing. A+

this made sense to me, but again this is easier to come up with as mafia? you'd be informed and would know exactly what's going on.

Spoiler:

But to be more specific.

People who aggro easily are usually in my experience bullheaded town that are too inexperienced to realise that town needs to be townread too to do their job. (need to be townread to be believed and theres such a drop off of belief in dead people because mafia players are narcissists)

Of course Mafia get defensive, but the main focus of a mafia, especially a new mafia is to not make waves. So the vibe check says dumb town.

this seems to clarify things if i assume that it means "constantly aggressing everyone is +scum" but also i don't agree with that take. isn't the whole point of the game to push people? how else are we meant to sort anyone?
from bella: "Leading town is town-y so scum want to do it?" yes? i was in a game where the mafia pulled this off masterfully. they didn't even lose a single member if i remember correctly.
noting that espeon was calmer here, though i don't know if that'll have any relevance.

Spoiler:

I might be wrong but don't the two halves of espe's post contradict? Aggression is good but also bad? Leading town is town-y so scum want to do it?

You might be misunderstanding.
Espe's post describes me as a pacesetter, a narrative controller, and a boogeyman mastermind experienced scum trying to influence everyone to agree with my Night Owl observations so early in the game when we're still trying to have fun and be silly. Therefore scum.

pretty much this but without the adhom, yes.

To respond to Bella as well. There's nothing wrong with leading the town, but there is something wrong with trying to forcibly establish it. I don't think anyone should be 'leading town' regardless, but monkey's lines of question and aggressive tone choice read to me like someone trying to fight their way to such a position. And that's the bit that's scummy.

i'm going to stop quoting things and just skim at this point. i have been at this for too long.
- a skim later -
i genuinely cannot find a post that makes me go "hey that's weird." there's just suspicions that seem reasonable, and are seemingly only suspicious themselves because they're in opposition to HEM.
sixteen pages and you two have just backed the whole thread into your own tunnel. jesus christ.

i'm not confident enough in HEM's alignment to seriously try and eliminate them. i feel like it'd be 50/50 odds and those aren't good enough for me, so if the people on my wagon would start pushing it along, i'll hammer it myself.

[Dunnstral]

I will vote between {Espeonage, Doctor Drew, Hu Tao, and Night Owl}. My priority is Espe, a tie between Drew and Hu Tao, and Night Owl only if no one has the appetite for the three.

I'll be waiting for Bella's replacement, StD's return, and Dunnstral's input. I want to know where they are in this.

I'm not sold on the reasons for Espe being mafia. I think Doctor Drew is overzealous town. I don't have much of an opinion on Hu Tao's recent posting. i wasn't impressed by anything at least. Night Owl I don't see anything wrong with their vote on Hu Tao and I feel that is what people have taken offense at recently, wouldn't want to vote there without a better reason.

[humaneatingmonkey]

Surprise surprise!

I have not backed us up into anything. You chose that dichotomy yourself, and even added yourself because you are an amazing hero.

This day can still go either way - the replacement isn't replacing into a doomed slot. I have an elimination pool (although I think I jumped the gun on Hu Tao, since I misunderstood them). But I am waiting for Dunn and Bella's replacement... and now Espeonage's replacement.

Truth be told, I was warming up to the idea of taking Espeonage and I into day 2 if only I could take Espeonage out of his tunnel and discuss *other* reads in language that is less hostile. I was thinking that the most logical choice is eliminating Not_Mafia. It will save us the headache of having to sort him later. That's what it was all about establishing a dialogue with him. Maybe I was also in that tunnel, but it's hard if your top scumread is also scumreading you. It becomes a deathmatch at that point - I was avoiding that.

Now that a replacement is coming, I'm even more considering a Not_Mafia elimination.

But I'm still gonna be waiting.

[humaneatingmonkey]

p-edit: Hey, you're here.

[Dunnstral]

i think the game would benefit from a flip at this point. here are the top options as i see them.
- espeon
- me (quiet owl)
- humaneatingmonkey

pick someone for gods sake and stop going at each other's throats. i'm going to iso esp and hme and then pick and stick to a vote.

You're voting Hu Tao...

[humaneatingmonkey]

I'm not sold on the reasons for Espe being mafia.

What do you think are the reasons for Espe being mafia, and why are you not sold on it?

[Dunnstral]

It seems you are mainly calling them mafia because they called you mafia and you are both accusing each other of trying to take control of the game. And maybe you guys don't like each other. And then there are people saying that because Espeonage is the leading wagon we should consolidate votes there, or implying that they are the most scumread. And sheep didn't like something Espeonage said about them.

[Dunnstral]

I don't see how people are reading Hu Tao's recent posts as town. Basically all they did is defend themselves against suspicion and vote the person who voted them. I mean, maybe that doesn't make them mafia, but how are people going from null to town?

[humaneatingmonkey]

That's... no.

[humaneatingmonkey]

I see that it's necessary to make a case then.

@MOD Are we allowed an extension for the replacement of Bellaphant and Espeonage? Thank you very much.

[humaneatingmonkey]

VOTE: Not_Mafia

We should do this. Why haven't we done this?

[bob3141]

I think NM would be bad elimination day one as we will not get much info. Hopefully his slot can be sorted or eliminated later

[humaneatingmonkey]

Through what way? I admit I do not know how to play with his slot, yet alone read him.

[bob3141]

His slot either gets replaced, vigged, investigated or he starts posting more. NM is even from him this is very game quite