Pokemon Battles 2 - Attack on Giratina [GAME OVER]

[Meuh]

This day is both hard and fun.

I keep going back and forth with Titus as scum.

She’s been holding back on choosing sides regarding to Black-Chandra/Wheme too.

Right. I want to ignore it specifically and read around it. Hence why I focus on Cakez NM SR

Yeah, Titus was weirdly ignoring FL's claim and opting to look there
I wanna take a look at her NM progression after this
I think her positioning was an attempt at making sure town would flip (so even if we deviated from FL's claim, we'd still flip a townie)
I think this vaguely looks good for NM for now though? Especially considering the scum team was 2 mislims away from a win here if they're a team of 5, pushing pure agenda makes sense
FL's gambit points to a general idea of scum wanting to just end the game because they hold enough power I'd say? Though I suppose a team of 4 might want FL to make that play to gain more towncred? But I'm not sure what that really accomplishes cause that'd require both Wheme and Chandra to get flipped and both of them to be scum, for more towncred on an already widely townread player? FL's play is nonsensical if Chandra/Wheme are S/S unless he was specifically planning to get limmed after the Black mislim, so the plan was never to give FL towncred,

maybe

it was to give both Wheme/Chandra towncred but that would be a really odd scenario

[Meuh]

Maybe it's just Occam's Razor and FL thought he had the momentum to lim Black+Chandra/Wheme back to back

[Meuh]

Yimmy catching him on the night action played a big role in discrediting him so I think FL lost a lot of towncred he thought he'd still have, unless he's specifically paired with Yimmy (lol no)
But how does the scum team ever let FL get limmed at the final 9 then??? That day's so confusing to me

[Meuh]

Like were they just torturing us, why couldn't they just win the game

[Meuh]

Can we just kill STD/Black/Italiano and get like 2 scum flips through that

VOTE: ItalianoVD

Will you appease the VCA gods with me?

So I say "can we just kill townie/townie/STD" and get scum flips with that
and then Titus is like "heehee sure :3" and votes one of the townies
I think this looks slightly good for std? With Titus choosing to respond to this post to egg it on

[Meuh]

Math, please let things develop. "Bad" things may happen but we need to sort this out. Think of it like not overtalking in Botc. Take note and see who moves.

I'm not a fan of an StD wagon but I don't have an issue with people who voted (minus Italiano). That can check work.

Ooh I do NOT like this one

Meuh (3) Save the Dragons, Malakittens, Black

This wagon comp is gross.

Agreed.

Once again townie/townie/STD, is Titus chilling with the "1 scum in a pool of townie" thing or is she just having fun pushing pure agenda? I feel like the latter could be the case considering the gamestate at that point, but the former wouldn't really shock me

[Meuh]

VOTE: Save The Dragons

No reason beyond making the top two wagons closer.

Totally fine with this.

Oof this one is BAD, why does Titus decide to voice this?? The wishy-washy "std is meh but I don't really wanna vote him but I do support his wagon and the people on it" and also her support for it increasing as the wagon garnered momentum feels like scum positioning (keep in mind Italiano was the lead wagon, so Titus wasn't like trying to egg on a counter-push on a townie, I think it's more likely she wanted to be able to go and say "hey I supported that wagon!" if it landed on std)

[Meuh]

Mala would lim
Std meh not elo
Meuh town
ItalianoVD would lim

(Other post being meh on std I forgot to send)

[Meuh]

I started the day with people scum reading me and when asked for a case they didn't provide it. i'm not sure what you're expecting me to do besides defend myself. i don't understand why that makes me scum. i don't really understand why anything that's been said against me makes me scum, so i'm not sure how i'm supposed to prove that i'm town to anyone.

i have said multiple times that meuh isn't attempting to solve which i think is good reason to lock onto meuh. patchwork wasn't much better.

i've explained in depth my chandra read.

i've developed many town reads, and there are many people i wouldn't touch but it seems like that's getting ignored.

i'm willing to answer any questions but no one is actually interested in asking me anything about my reads, people seem content to sandbag me for a playstyle that quite frankly is pretty easy to recognize as my town meta. i've been as present as i can be with what i've got going on and to hear it said differently is getting it twisted.

I'd love a readwall or at least a lim list from you. I'm catching up now.

There's an interesting lack of content on std in general in Titus' ISO, I find. These sorts of questions very much feel like scum who are like "damn I need to interact with this person more" so I could see it be paired? Though Titus didn't have a hard time engaging with FL extensively so maybe it's odd that she would with STD (yes he had less content, but enough that she could've had more meaningful interactions)

[Meuh]

I had a plan for how to deal with STD but I'm no longer able to execute it so that's cool

What was your plan? I'm not sure who is scum but it's a better rehash to elucidate thoughts atm.

Another post tangential to STD that's just kind of her asking a question

[Meuh]

Checking FL's ISO, he barely acknowledges STD's existence until the day STD started to get pressure, and then he doesn't actually talk about him directly that much? FL throws STD as scum in like a shit ton of scumpools and solves after that, but the crux of his bad feeling was like STD being obsessed with him or something? Considering FL didn't really interact with STD before tbh I could see it just being FL annoyed at the position STD took in the game and just being cool with momentum garnering on him since it gets a thorn out of his side

[Meuh]

Especially when you compare that to the way he interacted with Titus, I'm actually not really feeling scum!STD on associatives here, nothing clearing but it doesn't quite click

[Meuh]

I have a reason to want NM alive for now so I'd rather not vote there (I don't wanna keep him til ELO, just a bit longer)

Nevermind I misunderstood smth

[Meuh]

This day is both hard and fun.

I keep going back and forth with Titus as scum.

She’s been holding back on choosing sides regarding to Black-Chandra/Wheme too.

Right. I want to ignore it specifically and read around it. Hence why I focus on Cakez NM SR

Yeah, Titus was weirdly ignoring FL's claim and opting to look there
I wanna take a look at her NM progression after this
I think her positioning was an attempt at making sure town would flip (so even if we deviated from FL's claim, we'd still flip a townie)
I think this vaguely looks good for NM for now though? Especially considering the scum team was 2 mislims away from a win here if they're a team of 5, pushing pure agenda makes sense
FL's gambit points to a general idea of scum wanting to just end the game because they hold enough power I'd say? Though I suppose a team of 4 might want FL to make that play to gain more towncred? But I'm not sure what that really accomplishes cause that'd require both Wheme and Chandra to get flipped and both of them to be scum, for more towncred on an already widely townread player? FL's play is nonsensical if Chandra/Wheme are S/S unless he was specifically planning to get limmed after the Black mislim, so the plan was never to give FL towncred,

maybe

it was to give both Wheme/Chandra towncred but that would be a really odd scenario

OH she was saying "Cakez' NM SR", not her scumreading NM and Cakez

[Meuh]

Spoiler:

NM fits into literally every scum team

I don't see NM scum here. Why do you?

This day is both hard and fun.

I keep going back and forth with Titus as scum.

She’s been holding back on choosing sides regarding to Black-Chandra/Wheme too.

Right. I want to ignore it specifically and read around it. Hence why I focus on Cakez NM SR

I'm just having fun thinking about this not serious but what if we pivoted to NM and then I hide in such a way as to intentionally die

Not opposed to this, but it's circular logic.

If we believe FL and if we believed your claim to hide as to die, then we'd just eliminate Black and encourage you not to die.

Who have you hid behind?

I'm gonna be so mad if I was right on Chandra/Wheme here and scum are pulling me off

I'd be mad too. I hate focusing in this pool because my independent read levels support eliminating NM or DGB. Not the active people claimed.

Of course looking at wagons has got us into this mess so...

I'm gonna be so mad if I was right on Chandra/Wheme here and scum are pulling me off

I'd be mad too. I hate focusing in this pool because my independent read levels support eliminating NM or DGB. Not the active people claimed.

Of course looking at wagons has got us into this mess so...

Also yeah I agree DGB and NM are the most likely scum at this point I think

What happens if you me Chandra turn around and vote NM?

Yeah that post is gibberish. I'm reprhasing that then I'm out.

All we'd be ensuring by eliminating in the 5 names is continuing the NM/DGB problem down the road and likely without the votes from me or Cakey to deal with it. Regardless of who is scum, NM and DGB likely are.

I strongly want NM here but will decide between FL and Chandra/Wheme today if required.

Like flailing at this point

Do we think FL is trying this drama to protect NM? Or just coincidence?

SirCakez, let's suppose FL, NM, one of Chandra/Wheme are scum, who are the last two?

FL is protecting someone. With locked votes, discussion effectively stops when someone is voted. Want to discuss NM? Welp FL's voted? Want to discuss DGB? FL is voted. So on and so forth.

The way Titus bundles DGB/NM together kinda feels like they'd be T/S? and DGB's probably townier there, but maybe lumping them together is a genuine "they're playing similarly" thought
Her stance on NM is weird. Early on she was saying NM was a fine policy lim and nothing beyond that, and then suddenly she doesn't think he's scum (in response to a post Cakez made), then she actually wants him as a vote based on her reads (she had a read on NM?) and likes the idea that NM is almost always scum (this is despite her contesting a different Cakez post earlier that was making almost the same point??) and then she brings up what FL was doing relative to NM and leaves a question so people wonder about it, insinuating NM got defended by FL
I think this actually points to NM being town? Maybe Titus' handling of him could boil down to her just not giving a shit what happens to him if they're scum, but I think she'd be trying to take a more stable stance on NM with more reasonable progression if she actually was scum with him. In the bigger picture I think town!NM makes more sense if scum were confident heading into the endgame (scum!NM makes the team weaker but more importantly, town!NM is a trivial mislim)

I'm starting to think associatives aren't gonna get me anywhere though, I feel like scum set up a minefield for us to step into when it comes to that

[Meuh]

Chandra's just town
I need to think about Merlyn

[Yimmy]

2

Firebringer

3

SirCakez

4

Flavor Leaf

6

DrippingGoofball/KittyTacky

7

WhemeStar

8

ItalianoVD/Rathe/Blue.

9

Lazy Shirou/Skygazer

11

Titus

12

Chandra Nalaar

13

MathBlade/Sheepsaysmeep

15

biancospino/Enchant/Invisibility

17

Meuh/Patchwork

18

Black

19

Not_Mafia**

20

SquirtleSquad

21

Malakittens/Metens* (Malakittens + Mewtaph)

22

Yimmy/NorwegianboyEE

Interesting. Can you elaborate more on the DGB, Meuh and Math reads?

This post feels fake but I'm not sure if it's in a "Titus is scum and therefore has no reads" way or in a "awkward interaction with partner" way

this is how titus interacted with everyone all game. it is weird but not a good associative i think

[Yimmy]

i've slept on it and i'm still wearing a silly hat. i think i am going to try to collect the case so far in a more readable post later today (don't have time right now, alas).

i think the most compelling question to ask when evaluating, like, any potential solve, is "why did fl throw?" cause we were all there. scum didn't let him die. he did not want to live through that day. he was begging someone to vote him. i don't think that makes sense without a gambit at play. throwing doesn't get rid of any wifom on the chandra/wheme thoughts. if they are both town, or even if just one of them is town he should be able to ride that out to a win pretty easily (maybe not, but it wouldn't have been worse than getting the black lim like he did. not much would've changed between those two days). it doesn't help much if they're both scum, either. but it

does

make sense if his death looks really good mechanically for whatever of his partners are on the chopping block. and it didn't help wheme much

[Chandra Nalaar]

Meuh I think you're forgetting that when FL pulled his gambit he didn't need 2 mislims to win, he needed 1 and we only survived because of a miracle

If you're scum that's a really good dumbtell tho

[Meuh]

Meuh I think you're forgetting that when FL pulled his gambit he didn't need 2 mislims to win, he needed 1 and we only survived because of a miracle

If you're scum that's a really good dumbtell tho

Huh didn't Black get limmed at 13 and then FL at 11? if town gets voted at 11 with a 5 person team doesn't scum win? What did I miss

[Chandra Nalaar]

I think FL could read the writing on the wall as multiple players were lining up against him. I don't really understand why the selfvote and stuff unless it was to make you ask this exact question, but shrug

[Chandra Nalaar]

Meuh I think you're forgetting that when FL pulled his gambit he didn't need 2 mislims to win, he needed 1 and we only survived because of a miracle

If you're scum that's a really good dumbtell tho

Huh didn't Black get limmed at 13 and then FL at 11? if town gets voted at 11 with a 5 person team doesn't scum win? What did I miss

I'm pretty sure black got limmed at 12 and no one died (probably because they hit Cakez bulletproof)

[Meuh]

It's weird cause FL's play when he got limmed there makes me think that it's a 4 mafia team (otherwise they'd strongarm a townie death) but then I don't think FL makes the fake claim in the first place without a 5 person team so ???

[Meuh]

Meuh I think you're forgetting that when FL pulled his gambit he didn't need 2 mislims to win, he needed 1 and we only survived because of a miracle

If you're scum that's a really good dumbtell tho

Huh didn't Black get limmed at 13 and then FL at 11? if town gets voted at 11 with a 5 person team doesn't scum win? What did I miss

I'm pretty sure black got limmed at 12 and no one died (probably because they hit Cakez bulletproof)

okay yeah but FL got voted at 11 still?

[Chandra Nalaar]

Yes