Mini Normal 2313: I am sitting in a room (game over)

[Dannflor]

Here are my reads in no particular order.

Charles

- Charles just has such a pure tone. I can't help but think he would come off way... guiltier if he rolled scum than he does here. Here, he seems kinda desperate. Not as in scum desperation, but desperately earnest and eager to be seen as town. He wants people to be patient with him and see him as town even though expressing himself in this format doesn't come as easily to him as he wishes. I think him admitting to maybe scum reading bob in 448 for calling him bad is very towny. I think the reevaluation on AnimatedWizard in 604 is towny. This wasn't prompted by anything in particular as far as I can tell, and seems like a genuine moment where Charles just relooked at his reads and realized he no longer believed in him. I think it's much easier here for scum!Charles to keep his AnimatedWizard tunnel, especially since AnimatedWizard was currently the leading wagon.

(I also scum read bug and 81 and 82 are super anti-associative with bug.)

Hu Tao

- Okay, so like there's the town slip I picked up on. It's definitely fakeable, yeah, but I don't believe it is in this case. The main thing about Hu Tao is that she isn't really trying to look town. I mean, she's doing a lot and voicing a lot stances but they aren't trying to make sure everyone knows how towny their trajectories are and how much they are thinking about each slot. For instance, I think the fact that Hu Tao has never really explained her main push on BlackStar is actually town indicative. I think it's natural as scum to over explain your pushes so that people understand that it is reasonable for you to be pushing where you are pushing. Hu Tao is more interested in getting reactions and taking action on her reads than explaining them for the primary purpose of getting town read. There's also just lots of small individual town pings from their ISO. like 239 is a genuine bit of emotion that I think is at the very least not easy to fake.

Andante

- I think past a certain point, it's just very hard to fake having so many scum team / conspiracy theory solves while maintaining such a genuine tone. I think Andante hard townreading Gumi in 113 is the type of read that always comes from pocketed town. It's like pretty self-centered in the way that Andante is purely looking at Gumi through the viewpoint of her green role PM and thinking, oh Gumi is helping me, that must be town too! I think her frustrated reactions to the quick wagon at the start of today was towny. idk andante just oozes town and I'm not gonna spend too much time explaining that.

AnimatedWiz

- I think AnimatedWiz also just has a super pure tone and has shown a resolve to continue solving and even a willingness to look surface-level scummy in the face of mounting pressure. I think there's a lot of stuff in his ISO you can point at and be like oh this is so scummy! but I think taken all together with how prolific he has been, this is a really untenable position of scum (especially newer scum) to be taking. AnimatedWiz is just *so* transparent with his reads and thoughts and I know I just said I town read Hu Tao for being less transparent, but in AnimatedWiz' case, his transparency seems to be at a level where it is very hard to fake the genuine tone that comes along with it. I think Ani lecturing / scolding everyone in 831 is like, both very town motivated and also very unlikely to come from scum who spent almost all of D1 tied for leading wagon. I also think the gambit thing that Black scum read Ani for is Actually Very Towny. I think town like to come up with schemes and gambits that make no sense to anyone outside of themselves a lot more than scum do. Scum are way too concerned with optics and how other people will view them. Yes, a caught scum might exclaim "gambit!" as an excuse, but I don't think that was the case here.

BlackStar

- It's not the self vote itself I'm town reading (scum self vote a lot) but what came after the self vote. and that was the scum read on Hu Tao. I think it makes a lot more sense for scum in BlackStar's position to go after Afrayed, Charles, AnimatedWiz, or one of many other slots that are widely scum read. Hu Tao was pretty widely town read at the time and I think that sort of pocket scum read is pretty towny when you consider how precarious BlackStar's position was. in retrospect, I think stuff like him keeping a reads list on his phone (but not mentioning it until it became relevant) is townier than not. 300 is towny because it turns down an opportunity to immediately look towny by spewing stuff about afrayed knott.

Black

- I've had some flickers of paranoia here but I think this slot is just town. I think stuff like theorizing that Hu Tao and I planned Hu Tao's townslip together is the sort of read that is much more likely to come from town. Scum tend to see stuff like that and take it at face value, town are more likely to come up with theories a few layers deep. Black made a similar associative read between me and Ani, and I just think this type of read shows that thoroughness to which Black is reading back over the game and trying to come up with a team solve. I think the way they've been pushing people is pretty pure and they have a few moments of reevaluation that I think are very towny. For example: Charles in 195. I think the read on Merlyn/Shrek slot is also pretty towny moon!logic that I don't agree with at all but I don't think scum would be so quick to clear a slot based on that type of reasoning. There's a few emotional reactions that I think are unintuitive for scum to fake like 213. this ISO is just really hard to fake overall

Merlyn

- I just noticed the line about the 5 person scum team in 455. This could be taken as a town slip, especially considering it is mod confirmed that this game is 10:3 in the opening post. But this one is not super hard to fake. I dunno, I like this ISO. There aren't any posts I think are scummy, in fact I think it's on average towny. There just isn't anything I can point to that is like... wow, so towny! like I can most of the other players in this game. so, Merlyn goes a tier lower than all my other town reads. Mostly, I like the vibes she gives off of mediating and trying to pull stuff out of people she thinks are town but maybe aren't contributing as much as they should. um yeah I don't have a lot to say about it. I don't particularly think there's anything partnery here with any of my scum reads so I'd be a little surprised if this was scum. but I don't have anything super towny on this slot yet so I would also only be a little surprised if I was wrong on Merlyn being town. sorry Merlyn for the lame-ass read!

======================================================

brightbluebug

,

gumiguy

, and

bob3141

I think brightbluebug not having scum reads (see 682) except for a weak "maybe" scum read on charles is scum indicative. It's a lot easier for scum, especially new scum, to come up with town reads than scum reads because you know that everyone is town and being towny. Coming up with scum reads takes *work*. However, as town, I think it's pretty natural to be suspicious and paranoid of people and having no scum reads at all isn't really natural.

those on my read list are just ones who have made posts that really stuck out to me/ones i managed to interpret. i don’t have time / can’t read through the entire thread several times and take notes to get specific reads on everybody, and without specific reads on everybody/anybody i’m not confident enough in anything to accuse any particular person as scum or engage in discussion about someone i don’t have enough opinions on

this explanation is very hedgy and I think it speaks to not feeling confident in having *believable* scum reads

brightbluebug seems scared to scum read anyone without having a believable enough read, and I think that is much more likely to come from scum. and I think if you combine this with brightbluebug's 686 where they say they aren't talking because they don't know what to talk about, it speaks to someone who is content *not* to make ripples or form scum reads.

strongest townreads: adante
slightly less strong but probably still town: bob, dannflor, hutao
null/leaning town: animatedwiz, gumiguy
null/leaning scum: charles maybe

everyone else i do not have enough thoughts on. this was done upon a brief skimthrough of the thread

really quick I just want to draw attention to this reads list with gumiguy on it. this list is missing a lot of players! Most of the players that make it on the list are either high posters or people who are talked about a lot... with the notable exception of Gumiguy. why exactly is gumiguy on this readslist but players like black or afrayed knott are not?

I want the reasons behind the reads more than anything

Ah, fair.

brightbluebug - null. They haven't posted all too much about their own thoughts, mostly just asking questions about other peoples' reads.

I'd like to see a bit more from them.

Charles510 - null. I'm just not sure how to read him.
Dannflor - town. The way he's been playing seems like he's trying to figure out the game. I think he believes what he's saying.
Hu Tao - town/null. They seem really focused on BlackStar, in a way that feels like a town with a strong scumread on someone. It's possible they're scum, but I don't see it as being likely. Actually, I think town/null describes my read on them better.
Andante - town. As I mentioned earlier, I generally tend to see aggression as towny, and that hasn't changed. Her playstyle just seems too... confident? for scum.
AnimatedWiz - scum. See 218.
bob3141 - town. His initial posts still feel town, where he was focused on pointing out bad logic.

I'd like to see more from him

, but what he has posted still reads as town to me.
Afrayed Knott - null. Not sure how to read them as well.
pisskop - IC
BlackStar - null. Third person I'm not sure of how to read... wonderful.
Merlyn - null. I haven't seen enough of her to be confident in a read.
Black - town. Her actions over the game overall seem to have been done in town's best interest. I'm not sure how to describe it, but her posts seem genuine.

here is a gumiguy reads list. one fun thing is the phrase "I'd like to see more from them" or some variation thereof is used for both brightbluebug and bob3141. in my experience, this type of phrasing is used A LOT for SvS reads. for some reason it is a very natural thing for scum to say about other scum. it gives you leeway to change your read and hedges just the right amount without actually attacking or putting any pressure on the slot. I don't think it's a coincidence that gumiguy ended up using the same language for both reads.

I don't town read gumiguy's refusal to take a stance on Afrayed Knott either. While generally, I think people saying "I don't know" can be townie, I'd think with multiple people practically begging gumiguy to try to come up with something, and gumiguy previously stating a few times that they were going to try playing more active and confident, it rings a bit performative.

finally, bob I think has been kinda LAMIST. There's the hammering Afrayed Knott that Andante has noted already. but also the early game argument with andante about pre-flip associations doesn't read like bob was actually looking to discern andante's alignment. It looks like bob is just giving a lecture on best mafia practices and that is a very useful way to fill post space as scum, because it avoids giving actual content while still looking towny and productive on the surface.

posts like 48 are also just kind of LAMIST and posting to post.

83 reminds me of how i would shade my partners as scum.

I think bob coming back to vote brightbluebug in 491 doesn't make much sense and is very likely to be a bus because bob says pressure there will be best for the game in 506 but completely drops the push after voting blackstar in 510. Even later, bob unvotes entirely in 530 instead of revoting brightbluebug. this push was just entirely dropped which makes the initial post pushing brightbluebug feel pretty performative, especially since bug was getting some widespread heat at the time. bob comes back to voting bug but moves off citing the prod. the whole dance just feels very performative and LAMIST and like bob is pushing bug for optics not to actually eliminate bug.

I also would say that the afrayed wagon building so quickly is more like to be largely town driven than not? I might be biased due to being among the first to case afrayed knott, but I think scum are generally somewhat hesitant to move onto a fast building wagon on town. whereas townies don't care as much about the optics and love to build speed wagons. if my solve is correct, the wagon on afrayed knott was all town. bob immediately framing it as scum driven both feels TMI and a very convenient position for bob to take up pending the Afrayed Knott green flip. then, bob follows it up by assigning brightbluebug town points for it!!!!

fact this happened with the bug slot empty points that slot being statisticaly likely town

which really makes no sense. why would you call out that slot specifically and not the many other slots that were not involved with the wagon.

anyway, I'd be fine going after any of these three today but I think I'd prefer going brightbluebug first because I'm of the opinion that a red flip there pretty much confirms Charles as town

VOTE: brightbluebug

[Skygazer]

VC 2.02

Hu Tao

(3): Merlyn, Black, BlackStar

bob3141

(1): Andante

Black

(1): Hu Tao

brightbluebug

(1): Dannflor

Not Voting

(6): brightbluebug, Charles510, Gumiguy, AnimatedWiz, bob3141, pisskop

With 12 alive, it takes 7 votes to smack a player really hard in the nose. Day 2 ends in (expired on 2023-10-08 22:15:00).

mod notes: I am taking a Zumba class

[Black]

black are you thinking the scum team is me / hu tao / animatedwiz

I considered it but I don't think so. I feel like I'm wrong somewhere

[Black]

I can't read 850 before coffee. I tried

[pisskop]

so

one is [

brightbluebug

]?
one in [

gumiguy

,

black

,

hu tao

]
one in [

afrayed knott

,

bob3141

,

merlyn

,

adant

e]?

is this how you feel rn?

[pisskop]

ahh it do be.

[Andante]

I wanna lim bob here

[Andante]

yall going "yeah bob scum" but voting elsewhere just makes me wanna vote there even more

[Andante]

brightbluebug, gumiguy, and bob3141

there's genuinely no way that is the entire team... I'd only believe it if I saw it

[Black]

brightbluebug, gumiguy, and bob3141

there's genuinely no way that is the entire team... I'd only believe it if I saw it

Why is this so hard to believe?

[AnimatedWiz]

brightbluebug, gumiguy, and bob3141

there's genuinely no way that is the entire team... I'd only believe it if I saw it

Why is this so hard to believe?

I would think it odd that neither of the 3 main wagons yesterday were scum

and

that none of the big pushers for those wagons were scum either… though I suppose with two new players it’s not impossible?

[Andante]

brightbluebug, gumiguy, and bob3141

there's genuinely no way that is the entire team... I'd only believe it if I saw it

Why is this so hard to believe?

I've never seen a team of just the lhf like that before, like bob is scared scum right now, he doesn't know what to post, so I understand that one, the other 2? just doing nothing?? there's like always a scum partner that'll like take charge or whatever. and of that trio, I'm not seeing a leader.

bug is likely just town, that partner interaction with afrayed thing... ehh probably just means town, and like I was talking about before I yeeted afrayed, we are in trouble because we have town doing absolutely nothing/not caring...

I want to yeet bob first because I know this is scum!bob

[BlackStar]

brightbluebug, gumiguy, and bob3141

there's genuinely no way that is the entire team... I'd only believe it if I saw it

Why is this so hard to believe?

I've never seen a team of just the lhf like that before, like bob is scared scum right now, he doesn't know what to post, so I understand that one, the other 2? just doing nothing?? there's like always a scum partner that'll like take charge or whatever. and of that trio, I'm not seeing a leader.

bug is likely just town, that partner interaction with afrayed thing... ehh probably just means town, and like I was talking about before I yeeted afrayed, we are in trouble because we have town doing absolutely nothing/not caring...

I want to yeet bob first because I know this is scum!bob

I really don't think it's fair that you keep saying that you're the only person who's doing anything. People might not be jumping to agree with every idea you have, but that doesn't mean we're just sitting on our asses. Everybody has their own way of doing things.

Right now I still think that Hu Tao is the most likely person to be scum, but I think it's possible that Bug is her partner

[BlackStar]

Something that I noticed on day one was that Hu Tao kept saying that she was unsure about Bug. And when the push started for a bug wagon late on Day One, instead of commenting on that she completely ignored that it was happening. I thought that was interesting

[Andante]

but that doesn't mean we're just sitting on our asses.

no, not all of you, but I'm referring to the self voting town we limmed day 1, the probable town in our no posters/people doing nothing.

It's not ALL of you, but it's basically half this PL, like we had a self voting town day 1... who in their right mind selfs then proceeds to tryhard.... like excuse me?? I'm still angry about that one

[Andante]

Everybody has their own way of doing things.

you don't actually seem mad afrayed flipped town there...

[Andante]

VOTE: blackstar

[BlackStar]

Everybody has their own way of doing things.

you don't actually seem mad afrayed flipped town there...

Running around saying "I told you so!" wouldn't be very helpful.

VOTE: blackstar

[Andante]

I'm gonna revisit you later, but yeah those posts make me feel like you genuinely don't care that afrayed flipped town, I can't be the only town here heavily annoyed we had a town self vote then proceed to tryhard... like in what world is that something TOWN would do...

VOTE: bob [/b]

I gotta go, so I'll leave my vote on the conf scum, but I wanna look at blackstar later

[Andante]

lol formatting XD

VOTE: bob

[Dannflor]

I don't think bob is LHF

[BlackStar]

Why is Bob "conf scum"?

[Andante]

I've played with bob before, he's 100% scared scum right now

[Andante]

and he's not posting to probably avoid giving his partners away tbh

[Andante]

yep, if i feel impatient at the time and a bit annoyed i hammer even if i expect it to more likely town than scum.

again, he KNEW afrayed was town, I can't look at these lasts posts in his ISO without going "that is scum that knew it was gonna be a town flip"