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[Afrayed Knott]

I don't really consider being on a lim list as an active push. Also I'm pretty sure I had already had you on my lim list before you put up yours and posted a readlist where you were 3rd from the bottom so I wouldn't say I ignored you.

OK fair enough.

[Afrayed Knott]

I think you may be.... or are you willfully ignoring it because your partners?


Interesting both Knott and dragon go down at the same time with an illness, coincidence I think knot!
(please read this with a sherlock holmes-esque voice)

I've noticed this pattern too, I had DE as possible scum earlier in the gameday, but said nothing other than a random vote in reaction to their Black vote. But then put them into my town drawer, I dont know why, possibly as they didn't vibe scum with me and so haven’t really looked their way. Thus my statement as I do now see them almost "sheeping" my thoughts and actions, or is it pocketing?

as for the illness - Really? what time of year is it?

[Afrayed Knott]

What's "pecking away"? (I'm not a native speaker and I've never heard this before.)

persistently pushing might be a more understandable term, or is it "tunnelling"

[Afrayed Knott]

In summary I realise that my town drawer is rather full and my scum drawer is emptying, This is just as I am now having to revaluate where I have placed everyone. The only lurker now is Gimli, there is nothing of substance from that slot. Both Kittie and Tim are now more active, should that say something, I am not sure as they maybe being coached, who knows.

My mind is too fuzzy due to flu to fully concentrate on each of those I should now look at. But if pushed I would say I have to say I have no clue.

We have some very experienced players in this game and I now understand that to try to read them might be a near impossibility without them staying in the game and using their experience to hunt scum, if they are indeed town. For me those players would be Dragon, Comet, Python (aka The group) and to some extent Black and VIP. To that end I'm not sure what to do, surely the selection process is random for roles? or do Mods ensure a fair mix of experience in all teams? meh...

UNVOTE:

[Afrayed Knott]

VOTE: DragonEater

I’ve been sat here in my panadol induced fuzz and can only come up with this - Lim on DE, Gimli or I. I know what I will flip and when you see that, if i am your choice, then Lim the other 2. Or is that just too much melodrama?

[Gimli]

comet I want you to know I'm sheeping you, whoever you think is mafia I trust your insticts with it

I spent half an hour looking for a phone that was in my pocket today, just want you to know what you're getting yourself into here

haha well I completely sympathize with that

[Gimli]

I feel like limming inside Gimli/Black/Comet/DE is significantly more likely to hit red than Knott/Kittie/Tim/VIP

-A

Yeah I agree with this

yeah but never comet

maybe DE?

[Aneninen]

Reading and posting in a couple of hours. Hopefully.

[Black]

The only thing I found odd, and I would love to hear thoughts from Black on this, is that arguably the player she has been consistently negative towards is Gimli, yet Gimli has never received a vote from Black.

I'm not sure how you can read my whole ISO and come to the conclusion that I have been consistently negative towards Gimli

[TimmerRC]

I'm not sure how you can read my whole ISO and come to the conclusion that I have been consistently negative towards Gimli

#295 & 302 & 311 & 313 sums up a position where you didn't really trust Gimli's interactions with the fake hammer.

You briefly follow a Gimli vote lead on python in 513/516 but then 606 you say Gimli is pocketing someone and in 613 mention that you are considering a vote their way.

IT's a fair bit of "i don't trust you" from you to them. What I found odd was the lack of a corresponding vote anywhere, but looking at my vote timeline chart thingy i made, you actually aren't very vote-y at all so it's not exactly a ping. I really just wanted to hear you elaborate on where you are at re: Gimli.

[Black]

I guess I read the term "consistently negative" and assumed you meant I haven't expressed any thoughts regarding Gimli being town, which isn't true. But I understand your position better now

IT's a fair bit of "i don't trust you" from you to them. What I found odd was the lack of a corresponding vote anywhere

I don't think it's scummy to distrust someone and not vote them yet. #313 should imply that I'm still trying to sort him

I really just wanted to hear you elaborate on where you are at re: Gimli.

I don't like the way Gimli has been interacting with this game. In the last game we played together he was hyper active and solvey and I'm not getting those same vibes here. I've considered Gimli's excuse of not knowing what to do and just wanting to sheep people but it doesn't really feel genuine

So yeah I think I'm ok with a vote here but I want to look over a couple things before we rush to fade anyone

[TimmerRC]

Speaking of Gimli... I just read their ISO and my eyes are bleeding.

I'm kinda zoned out of this game and don't remember anything anymore sorry

I think this is a gamestate in which town loses the majority of the time btw

So if gimli is town here, he knows he's not trying to change things and he's being lazy. But if he's bad, would he need to care?

UNVOTE: VIP

what

The reaction to the fake hammer is interesting... I'm trying to think it through from their pov, and I'm struggling to find anything townie about it. It was clearly a gut reaction to thinking that the day had just spontaneously crashed to a close with an elim, but I feel like there is a stronger likelihood that such a move "I better pull out of that omg" would be made from a scum. Even if technically it makes no sense, a knee jerk reaction like that would be more likely from a baddie, I think as they are so acutely aware of how their votes can be evidence.

VIP was never near hammer and my surprise was that I initially thought people thought VIP was hammered

I unvoted cause I thought for a second it was L-1 and not python trolling (don't wanna put anyone in L-1)

This just doesn't even make sense. And Gimli knows it, see their subsequent "just kill me" posts.

And then we enter a brief phase where Gimli tries to provide some content with posts like this:

I feel like python is playing a

good

game. solid stances, some thread control, relaxed and witty. A good game, but considering how what happened to timmer is what happened with every other LHF probable townie in the game (afrayed knott seems legitimate, so does kitty, for instance), then that means the scum, at least one of them, is doing exactly what python is doing. there are no scummy people left, so we have to look at who looks towny but doesnt

feel

very towny at all.

But it's just talking. It's talking about players from a remove. I think Gimli is bad.

[TimmerRC]

VOTE: Gimli

Please double check this, but I believe that would be E-2?

[usesPython]

idk how I feel about Tim going from

My problem is that my traditional scum-hunting route is to ignore day 1, which is usually fluff, and wait for an elim, which in my mafia world usually was within the first 48 hours. Once that happened and then a night 1 death went through or didn't, I would start to analyze how people talked to each other, how they voted and most importantly when, and in what order. I'd look to find where the scum were hidden in voting patterns etc.

But this game so far, I don't see how I can really provide a read yet, because everything that everyone is saying is completely plausible as both town and scum, if they are good players. A good player can EASILY be scum and post pro-townie, ESPECIALLY on day 1. So when you guys are asking me for my thoguhts, I have none because I've got NOTHING that feels truly scummy to point to. Any of the posts made in this game up to now could easily be either alignment.

to actually being active and useful

[Black]

I'm not a huge fan of him sneaking a vote in on Gimli after I expressed that I wouldn't mind voting there

[Aneninen]

I actually agree with this somewhat.

This isn't always the case

but I think scum are way more likely to have unoriginal thoughts and votes

Is it the case with me?

Weird question. Let's see whether there will be an answer for that.

That was for the same post of Black:

Yeah, they tend to be blendy. Like someone else starts something and they say "yeah!" And vote with it. But they never take any stand of their own.
I'm still trying to learn the vibe here but that's the kind of thing I looked for where I used to play.

That's one behaviour scum can do. A pity that lazy-town can do the same and scum can build up genuine-looking cases, too. However, what you said here might be true for the site you used to play on, I guess.

Well you have over 5k posts on the site, so I'd say you prob know how mafia is played here?

That's what I'd thought before the game started. I don't think you haven't seen how many players pointed it out that the game had changed a lot while I'd been away.

And yes, it's the positioning of the votes, and their tendency to always be a second or third vote on someone that caught my eye the most.

There was (is?) an article about this topic on the Wiki, but it was outdated even in the era when I was new. It's hard to draw a conclusion only on the wagon position. That's what I experienced.

When the games most frequent voter, which dragon is, never starts anything of their own, except for one lone time and they literally pull back from it one post later, I feel it needs to be pointed out.

Why are you bringing up that "one lone time" so many times?

Everyone else is a blank in my head so this evening my plan is to give players like black, gimli etc some study.

Looking forward to reading it.

I think you are asking me for a meta read on you here and I don't really have one

...an evasive answer.

Well you have over 5k posts on the site, so I'd say you prob know how mafia is played here?

Fwiw I have over 6k posts here and I'm still trying to figure it out

But that question was for me and it was clear why it had been asked in its original context.

Ok I am here today. Let me make some coffee and then I'll look over what I missed

do your thing and let me sheep you

comet I want you to know I'm sheeping you, whoever you think is mafia I trust your insticts with it
I don't think I can find them

They feel kinda pockety and the "I don't think I can find them" doesn't really feel like a natural thought Gimli would have 20 pages into a game

Good finding!

I feel like limming inside Gimli/Black/Comet/DE is significantly more likely to hit red than Knott/Kittie/Tim/VIP

-A

But, but, but it was like this not so long before:

Not willing to vote Kittie/Knott today period, probably won't vote DE/Black/Comet, leaves Gimli/Tim/VIP

-A

What happened?

I don't think a deep-wolf/competent scum player here is unlikely.

Deep wolf = a scum who's hard to be caught?

[Black]

The reaction to the fake hammer is interesting... I'm trying to think it through from their pov, and

I'm struggling to find anything townie about it.

So when you guys are asking me for my thoguhts, I have none because I've got NOTHING that feels truly scummy to point to. Any of the posts made in this game up to now could easily be either alignment.

This is weird too. I think Timmer could have reevaluated here but that would imply that he initially didn't really read through the game and made this up about all posts coming from either alignment

[TimmerRC]

idk how I feel about Tim going from

to actually being active and useful

I have no idea wtf in supposed to say to this. This is the same bullshit I got from Afrayed. So I'll go back to saying nothing, this site is infuriating.

[TimmerRC]

I'm not a huge fan of him sneaking a vote in on Gimli after I expressed that I wouldn't mind voting there

I made a breakdown of my thoughts on gimli after reading his iso which I said I would do last night. And that post took awhile to write and study up on. You made your post while I was writing mine.

But again, I'll just go back to shutting up, this site seems to not allow people to try to play after having a rough start.

[usesPython]

idk how I feel about Tim going from

to actually being active and useful

I have no idea wtf in supposed to say to this. This is the same bullshit I got from Afrayed. So I'll go back to saying nothing, this site is infuriating.

I mean I like the posts it's just that it feels kinda coached when 507 exists. We don't actually feel strongly enough about it to go there today though and actually do wanna see you post more like this

-A

[usesPython]

I feel like limming inside Gimli/Black/Comet/DE is significantly more likely to hit red than Knott/Kittie/Tim/VIP

-A

But, but, but it was like this not so long before:

Not willing to vote Kittie/Knott today period, probably won't vote DE/Black/Comet, leaves Gimli/Tim/VIP

-A

What happened?

595 are individual reads, 614 is a gamestate read

-A

[Black]

idk how I feel about Tim going from

to actually being active and useful

I have no idea wtf in supposed to say to this. This is the same bullshit I got from Afrayed. So I'll go back to saying nothing, this site is infuriating.

I'm not a huge fan of him sneaking a vote in on Gimli after I expressed that I wouldn't mind voting there

I made a breakdown of my thoughts on gimli after reading his iso which I said I would do last night. And that post took awhile to write and study up on. You made your post while I was writing mine.

But again, I'll just go back to shutting up, this site seems to not allow people to try to play after having a rough start.

I would like it if you tried to not get so defensive about people calling out inconsistencies in your play. You can't just throw a fit every time someone does this

I agree that the timestamps indicate you were writing your Gimli post as I was writing mine. I didn't have an issue with that post. It was the vote 3 minutes later that I thought could have been influenced by me saying I'm willing to vote therr

[Aneninen]

I think I've already mentioned I didn't really find much of Kittie's points compelling in #552 but to re-establish, a lot of the points felt focusing on viewing Gimli as flip-flopping when I felt something had happened in between each flip-flop to give justification for the switch. I suppose you could say the act of flip-flopping itself is scummy but... eh...... I don't really view it as a strong scumtell. Could you point to anything you felt was particularly strong/convinced you Black? Nothing really jumps to me.

What would be worth to do to check the whole ISO of Gimli. To see whether it was cherry-picking from Kittie. Nevertheless, I can easily see a town mindset between Kittie's posts.
Also,

I can see Gimli being scum but not for the reasons Kittie pointed out is my point

This, but more like Gimli can be scum regardless of Kittie's post.

I'm stuck because the two top suspects forming in my head rn feel like they don't really fit as a scumteam. Hmmmm...

Again, I may be outdated but Day1 team speculation rarely worked long ago. I was told so multiple times (and I usually forked it up whenever I speculated).

The absence of weak links is also informative

Scum have Daytalk. Which means, the team could consist of an experienced and a less experienced player, too. Or two on paper less experienced, but still good players.

Just some additional thoughts.

Spoiler:

(1) I don't know whether this game counts as a "tought nut". When I was active, this was pretty much the usual level of games. Even newbies! It was very rare when there was a really weak scum player or when a scum blatantly slipped... and even so, the game was never easy. I remember a game catching a slip on Page1 - and it took me 3 Days (not days!) to get that scum Eliminated. He simply outplayed me and had much better "arguments" than I had.

(2) Time zones mmmmmight matter. Since there's Daytalk, it may be easier for the scum to communicate if they're in some similar time zones. If both of them are active, they can even talk out every vote, every argument... BUT I also know that it's way too farfetched to speculate on this.

not much to cherry pick, he doesn't post much.

See above.

what I found interesting about dragons voting style is that he seems to push for a wagon to be started by someone else, and then and only then joins it.

I've already reflected to something similar. It's usually not that informative as it looks like.


Knott, 647 - I wanted to see some reactions, too. What do you think of Timmer's recent posts?

persistently pushing might be a more understandable term, or is it "tunnelling"

Oh. We used the word "tunnelling" for that.

Stopped at #652.

[Aneninen]

I have no time to read on right now, but I try to post a readlist (posts over #652 are not included yet)

Knott - I still find him scummy, see my earlier posts. Even if you call me a tunneler.
Black - I don't see her as obv-town as a lot of other players do, but I don't think this Lim would happen Today, so whatever.
Comet - Townread on her (at least I know the correct pronoun now).
DragonEater - Unsorted, I owe you a re-read.
Gimli - Still scummy, partly because of that reaction on that "meme", but not only.
Kittie - I can see a town mindset here.
Timmer - I can see a town mindset here, too. But that Timmer-Black interaction might be a thing.
Python - Townread from the beginning, it hasn't changed since then.

Really concise, because I had little time for this.

[TimmerRC]

I would like it if you tried to not get so defensive about people calling out inconsistencies in your play. You can't just throw a fit every time someone does this

I agree that the timestamps indicate you were writing your Gimli post as I was writing mine. I didn't have an issue with that post. It was the vote 3 minutes later that I thought could have been influenced by me saying I'm willing to vote therr

I apologize, it is something that always has bothered me about mafia. Someone says they are either lost or overwhelmed and everyone says they should try more and they do and then everyone says wait, what's this?

It isn't a good route to find scum, imo, people being active is what we want, no? This is literally the first day off from work I've had since the game started.

As to your post, I absolutely saw it, but I'm also adjusting to the vote method here and I feel like we must be getting to the point where we need to truly pressure someone? This is day 8 of 10. If we wait until day 9.5 to pressure someone and they claim a power role or something, I can see us scrambling and that will lead to disaster.

So at this point, I am expecting people to start following up their scum reads with votes which is why I did that. If my vibe on that is off, please explain how as I don't want to misunderstand the style here. But waiting until day 9 or 9.5 as a policy doesn't seem very smart to me.