Open 104 - The New C9 - Game Over

[Sun Tzu]

MickeyMike and atakdog are both wolves.

[Sun Tzu]

nice lipstick

[Sun Tzu]

ya ma and a-dog are masons.

oh wait too bad i'm the seer and peeking sun tonight!

There's no need to peek me. I'm an obvious villager.

[Sun Tzu]

There's no drama. I simply can't believe that in mere hours since the topic has been unlocked people started setting up lynches and NK's and started claiming. It's no drama. It's a simple fact that such play is ruining this game.

Maybe you're the one who should play some newbie games.

Wait, nevermind. If you want to learn, stay here.

[Sun Tzu]

I'm not a pokemon. I'm a Chinese myth dragon.

[Sun Tzu]

Anyway, don't lynch zhaorx yet. He acts like this every game.

[Sun Tzu]

Vote: Sun Tzu

for being the serial killer last time we played this setup.

Hey, that's not fair. I hardly got to play since I got night-killed on night 1.

Besides, I took out killa 7 night 0, so you should be grateful.

[Sun Tzu]

Atak, how come you started talking about the Seer?

Wait 'til you meet ScottHoward. He will claim seer, then unclaim it. I was just greasing the rails for him.

Or should I say "cop"?

Greasing someone's rails is a scum tell.

[Sun Tzu]

Zhaorx, you short-circuited these kids. Play nice.

[Sun Tzu]

Zhaorx, you short-circuited these kids. Play nice.

It's early, but my preliminary read is this is not village Sun.

Since I've never seen wolf/scum sun, I am not pursuing this further just yet. I'm just suggesting that the Sun I know (and can never read, despite his always being village) would have played along, are watched from the sidelines, presumably chortling.

This is good but you misunderstood. I'm enjoying the pokemon stuff and everything else in zhaorx's regular game.

What I am discouraging is the insults and antagonizing people unnecessarily.

I also would not like to see him get banned or something.

I like where your head is though. You might be able to catch me when I finally get randed scum.

[Sun Tzu]

By the way, atak, on this site, I've been scum a few times, so if you want to see my wolf game, this is the place to look.

[Sun Tzu]

also i really enjoy it when sun and m1ke speak pokenglish with me.

You weren't supposed to steal my line.

I was going to say, "He's helping everyone right now. If they didn't have that guy, you'd be fucking done."

[Sun Tzu]

By the way, atak, on this site, I've been scum a few times, so if you want to see my wolf game, this is the place to look.

Why have you never linked to any such games when I've asked before?

Will you do so now that we're here, or will I have to go a-searchin' on my own? (Not right now, since I think day is going to last about three weeks, but, you know, some day.)

Also, re Z: yeah, "retarted" probably wasn't the best way to go about pointing out that the tactic in question was a bad idea regardless the role. I also hope the banhammer stays in hammerspace, but we'll see what mood he's in.

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=8756

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=8602

[Sun Tzu]

Greasing someone's rails is a scum tell.

What is greasing someone's rails?

Ask atakdog.

[Sun Tzu]

anyway, there's a scum among siesta, mada, cougar. bank on it.

I hate posts like this.

[Sun Tzu]

Did you read those games yet?

[Sun Tzu]

Did you read those games yet?

I will probably do so over the weekend, which should be safe -- as you know, I rarely take a position, much less cast a vote, until near end of day, which in this game should be right around Christmas.

Neither of them should take long, but read the second one first. I just reread it.

[Sun Tzu]

You just have to wait a few minutes. I agree that it's annoying.

[Sun Tzu]

Sun i'd like to read your wolf games but this forum is really awkward...

thnk you could link one or 2?

I already did. They're a quick read.

[Sun Tzu]

As for oEJo countering omg_im_innocent_wtf, I'm 99% sure it's now obvious that omg_im_innocent_wtf is scum, but I still want to scumhunt. I'm happy with voting OIIW if zhaorx can convince me he's not scum, but if we have a vigilante he or she needs to be the one to shoot OIIW in my opinion.

How is it obvious that he's scum? What's your theory?

[Sun Tzu]

I am glad to see that M1KE is a good guy.

I agree that he's villagery so far but for you to clear him already seems wolfy to me.

[Sun Tzu]

Oh wow. He has a wiki page.

[Sun Tzu]

Hitch, if you haven't played with matrix before, how are you so sure he wouldn't say that as a villager?

[Sun Tzu]

Gotta love that aggressive style of our pokemon master The insults were a bit over the top, but the pressure is great.

I like this SiestaGuru already. I have no read yet, but I like him.

[Sun Tzu]

I think OMG's claim is more likely to be villager FPS than a wolf tactic, but I'd still like to hear his thoughts on what he was trying to accomplish.

I'd also like to hear what matrix thinks he was trying to accomplish if he's scum.

[Sun Tzu]

Hitch, if you haven't played with matrix before, how are you so sure he wouldn't say that as a villager?

Skimming his posts in chuck as suggested by atak, and there is NO WAY atak adresses the issue if he isn't sure that matrix wouldn't act this way as a villager, regardless of atak's role.

This is a little level 27 but I could have complete faith that atak beliaves matrix wouldn't act this way as a villager, regardless of atak's role. He simply couldn't put something like that out there unless it was true because it would be an invitation to be shot at, as any role. In addition, I give atak's reading ability of players in general, but obviously in particular of players he has played with and I haven't as superior to my ability.

2+2

Are you saying scum atak wouldn't ever make this case against town matrix?

Could town atak be wrong?

[Sun Tzu]

Ok, let's lay out all the possibilities:


1. OMG is scum. EJ is town.

Why would he make a false claim here?


2. OMG is scum. EJ is scum.

- OMG decided to claim masons without EJ's approval, so EJ decided to bus him instead.

- They decided to sacrifice OMG to clear EJ.

Both of these scenarios seem extremely unlikely.


3. OMG is town. EJ is town. They are masons.

- EJ thinks OMG's claim was a bad idea, so he leaves his partner out to dry?


4. OMG is town. EJ is town. They are not masons.

- OMG is a mason, but with someone else and he misread his PM.

- OMG is regular town and claimed for some kind of FPS.

I don't know what this is supposed to accomplish.

5. OMG is town. EJ is scum.

This scenario is the same as 4 as far as OMG is concerned, since he doesn't know EJ's role.


My problem is none of these scenarios make any sense to me.

[Sun Tzu]

read deeper into that thread and you will note that I am very very anti fake claiming anything. One quote taken out of context = more to the gossamer illusion side of argument imo = Atak = Mafia than Town atak looking hard for solid reasons to vote to lynch someone.

In other news m1ke is likely a Mafia Goon.

Atak, let us set aside our squabble for the moment, whom else do you believe in this Town is acting Scummy?

Once I turn up Town tomorrow who will you be pushing for then?

I do see that you are anti-fake claim (and to anyone who doesn't want to read those threads: he is). It is more that you focused on this one without admitting of other possibilities. You don't always do that.

Who else is scummy? I have a hard time reading the locals, because their reactions reflect a different approach. Stef, for example, was ridiculously defensive, but it didn't feel like a necessarily scummy reaction.

M1KE is a villager imo. Again, may be wrong, but I'm comfortable with it for now.

Z's response to the fighting he started was villagery at first, but it was wolfscummy of him to slip away rather than keep drawing fire, as I expected him to do.

Sun linked to a couple of his wolf games. You should read the second one. It's too earlier to tell, but there's at least some indication he's scum here -- less carefree than village sun. (To be fair, it was over the top obvious in the games he linked to, and isn't here.)

How was I scummy in those games?

[Sun Tzu]

Sun, you said a couple weeks ago that if I'd seen your wolf games I wouldn't consider you unreadable. Now I have, and I know you're not -- and if you're making that statement, you know the difference, too.

Early in village games you are relaxed and make short, mostly less than serious posts; you knuckle down in the second half. In the games to which you linked you were serious in most of the posts. (You were also pretty obvious with your mistaken self-vote and subsequent backpedaling, but that was a one-time thing).

Far from conclusive. Just a lean atm.

What mistaken self-vote? Are you fucking serious?

[Sun Tzu]

Atak, tell me you're just trying to press my buttons or something.

[Sun Tzu]

Atak, tell me you're just trying to press my buttons or something.

Actually, I think pushing your buttons would be a very revealing exercise, but that wasn't my intent.

You subbed into the game and placed a vote on the person you had subbed for. Should I have referred to it differently?

I guess my point is you're on the wrong track. You're looking at the wrong things. I was light-hearted when I made the self-vote. I got serious when people called it a mistake. That's role-independent. I'm a villager here and I don't feel very light-hearted at the moment.

This is the same mistake Hitch and Dustin used to make. They got the idea that wagoning me would reveal my role, except I think they assumed if I got "emo" or "meltdown" or whatever, it meant I was villager. You've looked at that game and assumed the opposite.

Maybe you should look at this game where I was lynched day 1 as a villager:

http://www.freethought-forum.com/forum/ ... hp?t=16669

And here's one where I was scum and didn't get any heat:

http://www.freethought-forum.com/forum/ ... hp?t=16825

I think I should be easy to read but no one knows what to look for.

[Sun Tzu]

Zhaorx, what are your reads so far?

[Sun Tzu]

Yo, fuckin snorlax owns in this movie.

[Sun Tzu]

Zhaorx, what are your reads so far?

OMG - more likely townie than anything else. being a townie makes more sense than any other role right now. terrible to resolve on day 1

atak - i'll be honest here and say that this is atakdog's scummier side that we have seen so far. obviously will resolve later

mike - ok this is not m1ke's vanillager game. It simply doesn't feel right at all.

siesta - good logic so far. more likely a townie

hewitt - middle of the road approach right now. could go either way with him right now.

I agree with most of this. I haven't made up my mind on atakdog yet but he could be evil.

M1ke is probably town.

What's your take on matrix?

[Sun Tzu]

I'm not very good at reading matrix, but this looks like his villager game to me.

[Sun Tzu]

atak - i'll be honest here and say that this is atakdog's scummier side that we have seen so far. obviously will resolve later

Zhaorx, how many times have you thought I was a villager? (I mean, when you were one too.)

How many times have you been a villager when he was one too?

[Sun Tzu]

And here's the deal with previous games, I don't really give as much of a crap as apparently many other people in this game too about past games. Partially because I'm newer but mostly because it's the past. I would assume that whoever's mafia would get smarter each game and know how to play differently then past games. Where it gets tricky is could that be their strategy? To convince everyone that they wouldn't be dumb enough to play the same way twice? Or to point out the differences, I just don't know. To me, what's past is past and I'm going to focus on the right now.

If people could do what they want, perfectly, every time, making every adjustment that they thought they could make, then the game would devolve to one of pure statistics. But it doesn't, because people are, oddly enough, human. Humans adapt imperfectly; humans have individual personalities, which cause them to exhibit certain behaviors more or less consistently in similar situations. failure to use these data constitutes limitation of your analysis to an incomplete data set.

This is good, but I'm an emotionless robot. All my decisions are made based on carefully chosen, adjustable parameters and randomized according to game theory.

[Sun Tzu]

OMG, please tell us what you were doing.

[Sun Tzu]

This is good, but I'm an emotionless robot. All my decisions are made based on carefully chosen, adjustable parameters and randomized according to game theory.

Damn you.

All reads on Sun will hereby be determined by rand() function, until we have sufficient data simply to plug everything into Zhaorx's bandwagon calculator, which, regarding Sun, I will trust unquestioningly.

Ah, I love this game.

That bandwagon calculator will never work better than chance.

[Sun Tzu]

Ugh, never mind, I don't want to lynch the wrong person. stef I apologize for now.

Unvote: stef

I have two questions.

What made you change your mind?

Why are you apologizing?

[Sun Tzu]

Have I wandered in to a newbie game by accident?

Why is Matrix not dead yet? Are people just trying to get him to spew his partners?

Honestly I dont mean to stir things up again but anyone that does anything other than lynch Matrix today is completely retarded/scum

Can you explain your mason claim?

[Sun Tzu]

Have I wandered in to a newbie game by accident?

Why is Matrix not dead yet? Are people just trying to get him to spew his partners?

Honestly I dont mean to stir things up again but anyone that does anything other than lynch Matrix today is completely retarded/scum

Can you explain your mason claim?

Can you?

I can't explain it as a good idea. It was pretty stupid regardless of your role.

[Sun Tzu]

vote omg_im_innocent_wtf

[Sun Tzu]

Has anyone played with this clown before?

[Sun Tzu]

vote omg_im_innocent_wtf

wat?

this is awful

Why is it awful?

[Sun Tzu]

For what it's worth, I just skimmed half a dozen OMG games, and did not find one in which he played like this.

He does get mislynched d1 and d2 a lot, it seems, but not this way.

Maybe his screen name is a clue. Maybe he's trying to get lynched.

[Sun Tzu]

OMG, you are the worst player ever.

[Sun Tzu]

I'd quite like some time to interact with some of the quieter Townspeople here before my seemingly inevitable mislynch.

I don't think you're even in the lead.

I make it me 6 zhaorx 3 , and uncomfortably close to getting early majoritied.

There is no way this is right.

But such paranoia definitely seems vanillager to me.

Is he vanillager or 100% scum?

[Sun Tzu]

OMG, are you a pogger?

[Sun Tzu]

ohhh

unvote

[Sun Tzu]

MickeyMike and atakdog are both wolves.

if atakdog is a wolf, and mike called attention to him the way he did, mike should be shot. if atak is a wolf here, mike is almost never ever a wolf. further, if mike is a wolf, its very unlikely atak is as well.

very good

[Sun Tzu]

I'd quite like some time to interact with some of the quieter Townspeople here before my seemingly inevitable mislynch.

I don't think you're even in the lead.

I make it me 6 zhaorx 3 , and uncomfortably close to getting early majoritied.

There is no way this is right.

But such paranoia definitely seems vanillager to me.

Is he vanillager or 100% scum?

Does this site have some kind of filter on it where as soon as you load the page you lose the ability to recognise sarcasm?

Are you talking to yourself?

[Sun Tzu]

I figured this game was going to be epic.

[Sun Tzu]

It has been brought to my attention that a large number of the players in this game have all come from another site. Obviously we welcome new players and new styles. That said, discussing the game outside of this thread, except where allowed by your role, is against the rules of the game and the site.

The mod is aware of the situation and has decided to let the game continue. Given the unique circumstances, however, I felt the other players should be made aware.

Was someone discussing the game somewhere?

[Sun Tzu]

Nice try avoiding the rules to be able to pass through an insult. Can you PLEASE keep this about the game? I can debate how that was actually an insult and a breach of the rules. Can you actually debate how it was relevant to the game?

Who are you responding to?

[Sun Tzu]

He's a pogger, m1ke.

[Sun Tzu]

mike, i think omg is probably village
wtf would a wolf do that for even if oejo was in fact his partner? oejo cant go along with it regardless for fear that eventually one or the other of them gets dead, then the other turbo dies.
if omg is a wolf and oejo is not, omg is potentially committing suicide with his ploy. a wolf has no reason to draw such heat.
people need to realize the repercussions of the fps and ask themselves if a wolf would do such a thing, assuming the repercussions are obvious and the wolf would know ahead of time what the reactions would be.
example is people claiming wolf. almost always done by a villager(but it still pisses me off)

I agree with this for the most part, but you have to keep going to the next level. If we can assume he isn't a wolf because of this, then the previous assumption falls apart.

Claiming wolf is a good comparison. It's pretty much the same thing. You can say villagers are more likely to claim wolf than wolves are, but you can't clear someone for claiming wolf.

I think he's more likely to be a villager but I don't think he couldn't be a wolf.

[Sun Tzu]

post 415 is a post from matrix. im not sure why it looks like an atakdog quote

and sun, i didnt say omg was clear, just said hes probably village

Ok cool. Masons?

[Sun Tzu]

I'm glad the Fonz is in this game. I've played with him a couple times and he's pretty good.

I disagree about the fake peeks being anti-town tough. They provide seer cover. Personally, I don't like the "if I'm the seer" type peeks, but I agree with the principle.

While it's true that it helps the scum narrow down their targets, if the real cop is the only one leaving peeks, it's even worse. Also, who the scum kill while searching for the cop provides the town with useful information.

I agree about Hitch's post being a possible scum tell too.

[Sun Tzu]

Atakdog is on the money.

Mindless policies and mindless policy lynches are anti-town. Mafia is a game that requires thought and trying to get into other players' heads. You're not going to catch scum by using a list of standard scum-tells.

[Sun Tzu]

Since the difference in styles and meta as well as differences in opinion regarding proper strategy are especially notable in this game, I'm going to give some of my mafia background.

I started out on a different site. In those games, there was unlimited outside communication so a lot of the game was played via PM. The meta was more like twoplustwo than mafiascum in terms of goofing and fluff, but "lynch all liars" was adhered to pretty rigidly and FPS was not encouraged.

I got hooked and signed up on another site in which the games were slower paced and outside communication was not allowed. The meta was about the same, but the level of play was not as good. I realized that outside communication detracts greatly from gameplay, but I didn't like the slower pace and lack of activity.

Most of the games on both those sites were themed mishmash type games with all kinds of crazy roles. I once ran a game where everyone was scum (3 different mafia families). Hitch, that is probably the main reason I realized what was up in that one game so quickly.

Then I tried mafiascum. I like the games here and I play here regularly but I do prefer a faster pace and I think a lot of the players here play way too simple-mindedly.

When I signed up on twoplustwo, I was out of my element and it took me a while to get used to the differences but it's currently my favorite place to play. I don't like FPS personally but I don't really mind other players doing it if they are smart about it and I think a mix of styles makes games better.

I'm a poker player and I've always thought of mafia as a game that uses the same skills as poker. You combine logical, mathematical analysis with reads based on psychology, intuition and careful study of your opponents.

I'm sorry if this seems like worthless fluff but I feel it was worth posting.

[Sun Tzu]

By the way, atakdog is making a ton of sense and I agree with everything he is saying, but it's not necessarily an indicator that he is town. As scum, he makes a ton of sense and loves to discuss theory and general things to appear town while not discussing the specifics of the games and players.

I'm not saying I think he is scum at this point, but don't clear him for it.

[Sun Tzu]

Hewitt, that's not disagreeing.

[Sun Tzu]

Rome is the newbie area, we're in New York imo

More tentative reads:

zhaorx/stef (stef is getting replaced) town/town. Stef mostly just because I think blowing up and leaving is an activity that's weighted towards townsfolk over scum somewhat substantially, and zhaorx because I think given the premise behind his coming over here to play, he is more likely to be over-the-top as a pro-town role.

Also, FWIW I like WIFOM as an acronym. Don't know whether I like Fonz yet though.

I've used "WIFOM" on twoplustwo and no one has asked about it. I assumed everyone knew what it meant even though poggers usually just refer to levels and levelling.

[Sun Tzu]

I agree with atak that Hitch is wolfy. I also think we can clear him if Hitch comes up wolf because he wouldn't bus a wolf on day 1 like that.

vote Hitch

[Sun Tzu]

lol

[Sun Tzu]

My "lol" was in response to Scott Howard's post, but it's appplicable to SC's post too.

[Sun Tzu]

We actually use logic on Day 1, ScottHoward.

Explain the logic behind your FOS of well named.

[Sun Tzu]

We actually use logic on Day 1, ScottHoward.

Explain the logic behind your FOS of well named.

The only way for him to be town being truthful is for him to be a vigilante. Other than the obvious Mafia, we know an SK exists, but not a vig at this point.

Yeah, but where does the suspicion come in.

For it to be logical, you need to provide a reason to think he is more likely to be scum than rand().

[Sun Tzu]

Specifically, Strangercoug, tell me what you think well-named's soft claim does to his chances of being:

a townie

mafia

the serial killer

a vigilante

[Sun Tzu]

I was a little worried about well-named when he soft-defended Hitch (who is howling), but well-named looks town now.

By the way, I read both of them very well.

[Sun Tzu]

I'm in another game on this site where people are goofing around.

[Sun Tzu]

Like I said atak, if we weren’t here, they would still be joke voting for each other at this point. I think the best strategy for play on mafiascum is really to just get the day 1 lynch over asap, and then we can all start discussing the nightkill(s)

That's actually fairly accurate. I have been in games where the random-voting phase lasted for over a rl week.

[Sun Tzu]

StrangerCoug, what was your role in that game we played before?

[Sun Tzu]

sun, currently you arent voting OMG
you should be imo
do it
do it now

You had your chance for us to be masons.

[Sun Tzu]

Finger of Suspicion


Fonz, fwiw, I agree with you for the most part.

[Sun Tzu]

I will only use FoS when I mean full of shit.

[Sun Tzu]

Seriously Scott, who do you think is mafia?

[Sun Tzu]

Fonz's reasoning about breadcrumbing and leaving peeks is perfect except for the problem of the cop dying before he comes out.

[Sun Tzu]

WN, doctor = angel

cop = seer

[Sun Tzu]

Hitch you know I'm a tone player and you know I have your number.

[Sun Tzu]

fonz, what are we rushing?
if we play it ms style, day 1 is a total crapshoot.

Your first premise is flawed.

@ Hitch: I'm voting matrix, for the unnecessary claim and the appeal to emotion.

Those are terrible reasons to vote for him.

[Sun Tzu]

Ahhh okay I know we want to end D1 and everything but I really, really don't think OMG is scum no matter how dumb his posts seemed to be and I think we're making a mistake...

i dont think hes scum either
who cares, vote for him

Stop being stupid and vote for Hitch.

[Sun Tzu]

They're both solid scumtells.

not for matrix

[Sun Tzu]

Btw, how would you guys say you normally deal with players who 'always play like this?'

Personally, I ignore the noise and focus on the signal. Ftr, I don't approve of meta that helps someone's scum game at the expense of their village game, but you have to know a player's tendencies and take them into account to make accurate reads.

[Sun Tzu]

In my experience, random voting on this site ends pretty much the same way it does everywhere else: when someone thinks they found someting real.

[Sun Tzu]

bah @ "someting"

This keyboard sucks.

[Sun Tzu]

Atak, you seem pretty confident that The Fonz is town. You do realize there are players on this site who can look pro-town as any role. I haven't seen his scum game, but I think you should give him more credit.

[Sun Tzu]

I'm the miller, by the way. Don't peek me.

[Sun Tzu]

Atak, you seem pretty confident that The Fonz is town. You do realize there are players on this site who can look pro-town as any role. I haven't seen his scum game, but I think you should give him more credit.

I assumed as much. It is a reasonable working assumption, though, and as I said above, the conditional probability goes up given that he has done things that scum invests the time to do less often than townies do, and that scum don't always do it as well.

I'm just saying you shouldn't dismiss the possibility that The Fonz is mafiascum's atakdog.

[Sun Tzu]

dirty dealings imo

[Sun Tzu]

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/59/pu ... ad-340321/

[Sun Tzu]

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/59/pu ... gs-321692/

[Sun Tzu]

I feel pretty good about saying The Fonz is a townie.

[Sun Tzu]

"Personally, I will generally random bandwagon for the hell of it, until someone either overreacts, or the wagon gets high enough that someone puts a player in genuine danger with a random vote."

Now you're advocating doing something superficially anti-town to see who overreacts.

I thought you were opposed to that philosophy.

[Sun Tzu]

Why do I feel like everybody here is on caffeine?

I'm snorting lines of blow off a hooker's ass.

[Sun Tzu]

So, let me get this straight at least, we're voting OMG even though he's not scum?

Wait. How do you know he's not scum?

[Sun Tzu]

"Personally, I will generally random bandwagon for the hell of it, until someone either overreacts, or the wagon gets high enough that someone puts a player in genuine danger with a random vote."

Now you're advocating doing something superficially anti-town to see who overreacts.

I thought you were opposed to that philosophy.

No, I'm opposed to doing things

actually

anti-town. Random bandwagoning is not actually scummy, but newbs and opportunistic scum often make out that it is, therefore it is an excellent tool.

I agree with the distinction but I think more things than you realize are not necessarily anti-town even though people often think they are.

[Sun Tzu]

Rushing is bad and I think lynching OMG is probably bad too.

[Sun Tzu]

What 'people' think is of no concern to me. Certainly, there are numerous commonly-cited 'scumtells' i don't buy.

fair enough

[Sun Tzu]

Hitch, did you read the Chuck game? Matrix was a villager and he sounds exactly the same here.

[Sun Tzu]

Hitch, did you read the Chuck game? Matrix was a villager and he sounds exactly the same here.

Then that would be a great plan if he were mafia to sound exactly the same in this game wouldn't it?

It's not as easy as you might think.

[Sun Tzu]

Scott, it makes no sense to vote me for forcing this site's logic on other players when you're trying to force your site's logic on us. First off, omg_im_innocent_wtf has probably heard of "lynch all liars". oEJo countered OIIW's mason claim by stating he isn't a mason and involing LAL on him. I have my own reasons for voting OIIW, but I thought oEJo made a decent case against him.

Forcing us to adopt 2p2's meta (and you to adopt MS's meta) is just about as effective as forcing every single immigrant to the United States to learn English. Good idea on the surface, but in practice it simply won't work. This is Mafia, not a politics debate, but that's still a good example.

Logic is logic. It doesn't matter what message board, country, or planet you are on.

[Sun Tzu]

StrangerCoug is probably not a good lynch either. In the game I played with him before, he acted a lot like this and said a lot of things that didn't make much sense.

If Fonz is mafiascum's atakdog, SC is matrix.

[Sun Tzu]

Here comes George, in control.

Women dug his snuff and his gallant stroll.

[Sun Tzu]

ban scott howard

[Sun Tzu]

By the way, not all mafiascum games are serious business.

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=9947

[Sun Tzu]

you call this game serious? i just checked out another ww site. they play days that are 1 year long. nights are 1 month. they say anything less than 10 month days is hurting the village.

This sounds more like some sort of Buddhist koan than an actual recounting of things that happened.

Suiwo, the disciple of Hakuin, was a good teacher. During one summer seclusion period, a pupil came to him from a southern island of Japan.

Suiwo gave him the problem: "Hear the sound of one hand."

The pupil remained three years but could not pass this test. One night he came in tears to Suiwo. "I must return south in shame and embarrassment," he said, "for I cannot solve my problem."

"Wait one week more and meditate constantly," advised Suiwo. Still no enlightenment came to the pupil. "Try for another week," said Suiwo. The pupil obeyed, but in vain.

"Still another week." Yet this was of no avail. In despair the student begged to be released, but Suiwo requested another meditation of five days. They were without result. Then he said: "Meditate for three days longer, then if you fail to attain enlightenment, you had better kill yourself."

On the second day the pupil was enlightened.

[Sun Tzu]

I like the TCS and Wall-E wagons enough that I'll hammer either if I get the chance. What's the vote count?

[Sun Tzu]

I'm not in a hurry. I'm ready to move on to the next day, but if people have things they want to say, that's cool too.

I'd like to hear more from Wall-E and TCS.

Well-named seems less helpful than normal, but that might just be due to the way this game has gone so far. Give me a day or two to read him.

Hewitt seems weird to me too.

I almost forgot about Hitch. This is not his town game, imo.

[Sun Tzu]

I'm not in a hurry. I'm ready to move on to the next day, but if people have things they want to say, that's cool too.

I'd like to hear more from Wall-E and TCS.

Well-named seems less helpful than normal, but that might just be due to the way this game has gone so far. Give me a day or two to read him.

Hewitt seems weird to me too.

I almost forgot about Hitch. This is not his town game, imo.

Haha thank you, any specific reasons?

- the way you seem so sure OMG is village and want everyone to know you think so

- You seem to be following poggers and pogger attitudes more than I would expect from a mafiascum player.

I don't know if these things make you scum or this is how you normally play, but you seem strange to me.

[Sun Tzu]

I'm not in a hurry. I'm ready to move on to the next day, but if people have things they want to say, that's cool too.

I'd like to hear more from Wall-E and TCS.

Well-named seems less helpful than normal, but that might just be due to the way this game has gone so far. Give me a day or two to read him.

Hewitt seems weird to me too.

I almost forgot about Hitch. This is not his town game, imo.

Haha thank you, any specific reasons?

- the way you seem so sure OMG is village and want everyone to know you think so

- You seem to be following poggers and pogger attitudes more than I would expect from a mafiascum player.

I don't know if these things make you scum or this is how you normally play, but you seem strange to me.

[Sun Tzu]

sorry for the double post

[Sun Tzu]

I don't think I've ever been "helpful" on a day 1. I suck at wolf-finding on every day, but most of all day 1. I'm OK at clearing some folks, and I'm OK at picking connections out of old posts after a wolf or two is found, and....that's about it.

Sun has been giving me weird vibes though this whole game, but I can't quantify it. I think he needs the

FINGER O SUSPICION

though.

This post is villagery.

[Sun Tzu]

WN, by helpful, I mean clearing yourself which you are good at, not finding wolves, which you are meh at (no offense).

[Sun Tzu]

I'm not in a hurry. I'm ready to move on to the next day, but if people have things they want to say, that's cool too.

I'd like to hear more from Wall-E and TCS.

Well-named seems less helpful than normal, but that might just be due to the way this game has gone so far. Give me a day or two to read him.

Hewitt seems weird to me too.

I almost forgot about Hitch. This is not his town game, imo.

Haha thank you, any specific reasons?

- You seem to be following poggers and pogger attitudes more than I would expect from a mafiascum player.
quote]

I don't think you can really put me in the category of a mafiascum player considering my game record.

Oh. How many games have you played here? Do you play somewhere else?

[Sun Tzu]

1 and no I don't play mafia anywhere else besides with my friends offline and in a real live game.

I categorized you unfairly then but you still seem strange.

[Sun Tzu]

See, on OMG's part I'm not sure if it's a superiority complex or whether he's just kind of crazy.

This is your best post so far, imo.

[Sun Tzu]

ANNOUNCEMENT!

I am officially declaring the random/joke/etc phase over. The game is now on.

[Sun Tzu]

I like a Wall-E lynch less than a Hitch or Scrutinizer lynch now.

I'm moving him to "neutral" read.Some of his posts seem bad, but he's interacting and says he's high volume poster, so I'll give him a pass for now.

[Sun Tzu]

I like a Wall-E lynch less than a Hitch or Scrutinizer lynch now.

I'm moving him to "neutral" read.Some of his posts seem bad, but he's interacting and says he's high volume poster, so I'll give him a pass for now.

Genuine question here, does a high volume poster mean he's less likely to be scum to you? No snide intended.

No, but he'll be easier to read.

[Sun Tzu]

What are your reads then and why do you only show up when someone mentions you?

[Sun Tzu]

29 pages of fluff should be a scumhunting wet dream.

[Sun Tzu]

EBWOP: How did you plan on scumhunting?

[Sun Tzu]

acceptable lynches:

Hitch

The Central Scrutinizer

Wall-E unless he shows me this prolific posting he was talking about.

[Sun Tzu]

acceptable lynches:

Hitch

The Central Scrutinizer

Wall-E unless he shows me this prolific posting he was talking about.

You've been here since June and don't know how to check other posts by players?

Look in my profile, you should see a button that says "Check all posts by this user." Click one of the games I'm posting in and then check how many posts I made in the game by filtering the thread by my posts only, an option at the bottom of every thread on mafiascum.

I wasn't talking about other threads. I was talking about this thread.

[Sun Tzu]

What is an "FPS?"

fancy play syndrome

[Sun Tzu]

unvote The Central Scrutinizer

vote Wall-E

[Sun Tzu]

What does "fancy play syndrome" refer to?

Don't vote without stating your reason. It's how we catch scum.

Read my posts.

You came into the thread and made some scummy posts. Then you said you are always the #1 poster in your games and have hardly posted since then. I said I would give you a pass if you were going to be posting a lot, but you haven't. I'm not completely convinced that you're scum and I'd rather lynch scrutinizer, but as of now, I'd rather lynch you than OMG or matrix.

[Sun Tzu]

Fancy play syndrome comes from poker. Some people have a tendency to go for flashy or clever plays instead of "playing by the book".

OMG aka Bulletproof Monk aka Eskimo Sickness can best be described as "crazy". I don't think the mason claim thing clears him. He's crazy enough to do it as a wolf, but I think it's much less likely.

Matrix doesn't always make sense, but his tone here is just like I've seen him in other games as a villager so I don't think he's a good wagon either.

If I was choosing the lynch myself, I would lynch Hitch.

[Sun Tzu]

If I was choosing the lynch myself, I would lynch Hitch.

Then how come you don't vote for him?

Because no one seems to agree with me.

[Sun Tzu]

Based on what Fonz said about TCS's play, I no longer want to lynch him at this point. I can't really trust my weak tone reads on players I don't know.

I can trust my read on Hitch though.

unvote; vote Hitch

One thing I want to comment on is the idea that zhaorx's flippant comment ended the joke-vote phase. That's ridiculous. Even if he really thinks those posts seemed forced (and I think I see where he's coming from), that doesn't mean he thinks it's a strong read or that all other random voting needs to stop while we decide whether zhaorx or those posters are scum.

I think there were some other posts I wanted to respond to (I was only on my phone yesterday) so I'll look through the thread some more.

[Sun Tzu]

What are your reads then and why do you only show up when someone mentions you?

Because I'm waiting for a bunch of you fuckers to die so that we can get on with the real game. How am I supposed to scumhunt with 29 pages of fluff?

This post was my main issue with TCS. It seems so over the top with indignation or anger for a game that it seemed fake to me.

whatever

chill out

[Sun Tzu]

Sun Tzu: What if everyone was doing what you are doing? Nobody would be voting for their true #1 suspect. If you think you are right about Hewitt, you should vote for him, because A) it will net you cred with the town if you DO turn out to have been right all along and B) that way the voting record is accurate to suspicions of the townies.

Do you disagree? If so, why? If not, why not?

To everyone else voting for me: Please state a reason for your vote.

If everone did what I was doing, then everyone would have a list of lynch candidates ordered by their preference. That's a lot more info than everyone just voting for their #1 choice. It would also help us move this game along.

[Sun Tzu]

If I was choosing the lynch myself, I would lynch Hitch.

Then how come you don't vote for him?

Because no one seems to agree with me.

Well why should we vote for Hitch?

He looked good at first. Then I noticed a specific tell I have on Hitch. I don't want to give it away because it's very reliable and would be easy for him to fix if he knew what it was.

His case against matrix is bad, since Hitch was saying Matrix would never post something. Hitch doesn't know matrix well enough to say that and I think he's wrong about that anyway.

I also think Fonz's point is pretty good. Although consolidating wagons is a good idea, it does look like Hitch is trying to get other people to do the pushing and he's trying to limit our wagons to those 3. If Hitch is mafia, I think there's a good chance that all 3 of those players are town.

[Sun Tzu]

I'm disappointed that a lot of poggers seem to have forgotten about this game. I'd like to hear from atakdog in particular.

[Sun Tzu]

Despite the confrontational tone, Scott Howard made some very valid points I think Fonz should respond to.

[Sun Tzu]

The people not voting or posting need to be banned.

[Sun Tzu]

I like mafiascum because I couldn't handle the fast pace of chess by mail.

I'm going to go watch the grass grow. I'll check back here next month.

[Sun Tzu]

I agree that #862 is scummy.

[Sun Tzu]

For the folks playing along at home, Hitch just spewed Fonz = town.

[Sun Tzu]

By the way, mafiascum players aren't necessarily more serious than poggers:

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=9947

[Sun Tzu]

Of course we "had meta" on Reno. That's the point. I don't know how you can get a good read on someone from one post unless you know them pretty well.

[Sun Tzu]

unvote Hitch; vote Wall-E

That's L-1, so let's have some answers and a claim if necessary.

[Sun Tzu]

busted

[Sun Tzu]

lol @ strangercoug saying there is a meaningful difference between subjunctive and conditional

What is the point of making a statement and implying it's not a valid possibility? The distinction is worthless.

Hitch is still scum. Now he wants to lynch the quiet players. I guess in principle it's good for the metagame to lynch quiet players to encourage posting, but he knows the players not posting are often disinterested townies. Also, zhaorx is a bad choice since I'm pretty sure he hasn't posted on 2p2 for a while now and Hitch knows this. It's not like zhaorx is around but not posting.

vote Hitch

[Sun Tzu]

Says the person who isn't picky about the English language.

False accusationas are a scum tell.

[Sun Tzu]

Why the fuck did I get modkilled?

I posted the same day you fucking prodded, as soon as I got it.

[Sun Tzu]

Darkdude, you should be permanently banned from modding games. You are incompetent.