Mini Normal 2326 | Everything has exploded !

[DarthPunk]

I want to use the full time so I’m not interested in a hammer.

Oats why am I town to you the whole game?

[Dannflor]

Vivax town I think

okay now can you explain it because I'm having a hard time imagining his thoughts as real

[SuperfluousNinja]

Regarding Naerys, honestly she is so inactive in this game that I don't much care about any analysis in regards to her. My scum read on her was largely based on process of elimination, not because she did anything particularly scummy. I don't think she's interesting to analyze at all, really, and whatever I work out with her is going to have to be a consequence of how I read everyone else.

As for my view change on Oats, my read progression there is very, very well documented. I pressed him on a valid point and he just blew me off. It's not crazy for me to jump over to the scum side of the fence in response to that.

And as for activity levels, I guess I just can't win, because I took everyone's advice to heart and decided it was a bad strategy to use to try and find scum. Every person who had something to say to me about it said, yo, don't do it. And that includes Dunnstral, a confirmed town. So if I actually listen but now get scum read because I flip flopped or whatever, then just lol, can't please everyone I guess.

[DarthPunk]

Vivax town I think

okay now can you explain it because I'm having a hard time imagining his thoughts as real

Yeah I can when I get to work and have a bit of time.

[DarthPunk]

Regarding Naerys, honestly she is so inactive in this game that I don't much care about any analysis in regards to her. My scum read on her was largely based on process of elimination, not because she did anything particularly scummy. I don't think she's interesting to analyze at all, really, and whatever I work out with her is going to have to be a consequence of how I read everyone else.

As for my view change on Oats, my read progression there is very, very well documented. I pressed him on a valid point and he just blew me off. It's not crazy for me to jump over to the scum side of the fence in response to that.

And as for activity levels, I guess I just can't win, because I took everyone's advice to heart and decided it was a bad strategy to use to try and find scum. Every person who had something to say to me about it said, yo, don't do it. And that includes Dunnstral, a confirmed town. So if I actually listen but now get scum read because I flip flopped or whatever, then just lol, can't please everyone I guess.

Why would you not be interested in the alignment of your scum reads?

[SuperfluousNinja]

Oh I am interested in the alignment; I'm just not interested in analysis of Naerys herself, because there's just not enough to chew on. Whatever tools I want to use to sort someone out, I can't really use those at all on Naerys. You realize it takes like 5 minutes to read through her ISO?

My real life job is biostatistician, and in my profession, we often caution against even conducting a statistical test on anything with too little data. A conclusion based on small sample size is quite dangerous.

[Oatsmaster]

I want to use the full time so I’m not interested in a hammer.

Oats why am I town to you the whole game?

I think if you were mafia, you’d play this game differently, just being overtly reasonable seems to be good enough and it doesn’t make sense for you to get into a shitfight with a townie who doesn’t do anything.

Like you are trying to get people to understand what you are saying, you are trying to push the game forward and get actual useful content from people

[Oatsmaster]

As for my view change on Oats, my read progression there is very, very well documented. I pressed him on a valid point and he just blew me off. It's not crazy for me to jump over to the scum side of the fence in response to that.

I answered you like 10 times about it

[SuperfluousNinja]

As for my view change on Oats, my read progression there is very, very well documented. I pressed him on a valid point and he just blew me off. It's not crazy for me to jump over to the scum side of the fence in response to that.

I answered you like 10 times about it

Oh you SAID that DP was frustrated with Luca over a "non-game-related" thing, but you never actually showed me what that was, never showed any evidence in regards to it. Saying it happened is meaningless if you can't provide any evidence of it. Everything everyone has said in this game is right there for you to quote and reference, so you have no excuse for not providing the evidence.

You want to say something and not back it up with evidence, then I throw it in the circular file. That's how it works.

[Oatsmaster]

As for my view change on Oats, my read progression there is very, very well documented. I pressed him on a valid point and he just blew me off. It's not crazy for me to jump over to the scum side of the fence in response to that.

I answered you like 10 times about it

Oh you SAID that DP was frustrated with Luca over a "non-game-related" thing, but you never actually showed me what that was, never showed any evidence in regards to it. Saying it happened is meaningless if you can't provide any evidence of it. Everything everyone has said in this game is right there for you to quote and reference, so you have no excuse for not providing the evidence.

You want to say something and not back it up with evidence, then I throw it in the circular file. That's how it works.

I literally quoted 3 posts from DP

[Oatsmaster]

Bit much from someone who doesn’t even iso their own scum reads

[DarthPunk]

As for my view change on Oats, my read progression there is very, very well documented. I pressed him on a valid point and he just blew me off. It's not crazy for me to jump over to the scum side of the fence in response to that.

I answered you like 10 times about it

Oh you SAID that DP was frustrated with Luca over a "non-game-related" thing, but you never actually showed me what that was, never showed any evidence in regards to it. Saying it happened is meaningless if you can't provide any evidence of it. Everything everyone has said in this game is right there for you to quote and reference, so you have no excuse for not providing the evidence.

You want to say something and not back it up with evidence, then I throw it in the circular file. That's how it works.

He said I was annoyed about being called toxic which is a non game thing as opposed to annoyed about peoples alignment.

That's how I read it anyway.

[Oatsmaster]

As for my view change on Oats, my read progression there is very, very well documented. I pressed him on a valid point and he just blew me off. It's not crazy for me to jump over to the scum side of the fence in response to that.

I answered you like 10 times about it

Oh you SAID that DP was frustrated with Luca over a "non-game-related" thing, but you never actually showed me what that was, never showed any evidence in regards to it. Saying it happened is meaningless if you can't provide any evidence of it. Everything everyone has said in this game is right there for you to quote and reference, so you have no excuse for not providing the evidence.

You want to say something and not back it up with evidence, then I throw it in the circular file. That's how it works.

With this kind of mindset, what are your thoughts on Hu Tao?

[Hu Tao]

I think the better question is what are your thoughts on me? Without the snark for once please

[SuperfluousNinja]

The fact he gets so toxic is just another benefit of voting him out - we won't have to deal with that anymore and game instantly becomes more enjoyable.

This is super manipulative based on ninjas proclivities towards behaviour standards.

I don’t Think I have been toxic at all. Can you point out how this has been the case.

Because that is a serious thing to say to someone that is not about their alignment.

The fact he gets so toxic is just another benefit of voting him out - we won't have to deal with that anymore and game instantly becomes more enjoyable.

This is super manipulative based on ninjas proclivities towards behaviour standards.

I don’t Think I have been toxic at all. Can you point out how this has been the case.

Because that is a serious thing to say to someone that is not about their alignment.

I will say that for me the game has become unenjoyable (although I feel better now I've accepted my inevitable lim) due to the atmosphere created in the thread from players such as you and Oats. I realise now it's probably part of your plan as scum to create such an environment, where people are afraid to even vote you for what your reaction might be. The fact you gang up as well, it's pretty shitty to play against.

I wouldn't say that anything you've particularly said has crossed the line, so I will take back my 'toxic' comment, as maybe that was a bit harsh.

You are giving as good as you are getting tbh.

I found that comment to not only be off the mark but also highly manipulative in the way it was used with ninja, enticing her to vote your way based on a narrative of toxicity where there is none. Not based on alignment. But for personal reasons.

Really distasteful overall regardless of your alignment.

The fact he gets so toxic is just another benefit of voting him out - we won't have to deal with that anymore and game instantly becomes more enjoyable.

This is super manipulative based on ninjas proclivities towards behaviour standards.

I don’t Think I have been toxic at all. Can you point out how this has been the case.

Because that is a serious thing to say to someone that is not about their alignment.

I will say that for me the game has become unenjoyable (although I feel better now I've accepted my inevitable lim) due to the atmosphere created in the thread from players such as you and Oats. I realise now it's probably part of your plan as scum to create such an environment, where people are afraid to even vote you for what your reaction might be. The fact you gang up as well, it's pretty shitty to play against.

I wouldn't say that anything you've particularly said has crossed the line, so I will take back my 'toxic' comment, as maybe that was a bit harsh.

You are giving as good as you are getting tbh.

I found that comment to not only be off the mark but also highly manipulative in the way it was used with ninja, enticing her to vote your way based on a narrative of toxicity where there is none. Not based on alignment. But for personal reasons.

Really distasteful overall regardless of your alignment.

You and Oats have shouted me down for most of the game, including at times when I wasn't even talking to you (like when I was Iso'ing people). I think I'm entitled to bite back a little.

Absolutely you are, that is the game. But I have outlined where you crossed the line with that toxic comment and I think you agree.

I wish you hadn’t set ninja off but I think you did it on purpose so I will blame that on you

The other stuff is part of the game and having strong players with opposed views will always result in tension I don’t have harsh feelings towards you for also making the game suck for me. As long as we both acknowledged we are active participants (I even tried to disengage several times to give you space and get called mafia for it )

You said Luca is frustrated with Luca over "non-game related" stuff.

The first is frustration regarding influencing how I am voting in the game. Thus it is game-related.

The second is, once again, frustration about the fact that my game vote has been manipulated. That's game-related.

The third, same thing.

You can't argue that Darth's frustration is entirely over the fact that Luca appealed to my sensibilities, that Darth would have been equally as frustrated about it if we weren't all playing a game and he didn't have anything to lose in this game.

More importantly, you have this really, really avoidant way of talking about the issue. You treat facts and evidence like they are hot potatoes, like you can't wait to get them off your hands and not have to deal with them anymore. I'm not afraid at all to dive deep into the weeds and discuss stuff like this, but you get so incredibly impatient and defensive when I try to dig into stuff like this. You want to shut down conversations rather than seeing them through to completion. And that's very scummy in my book.

[Oatsmaster]

I think the better question is what are your thoughts on me? Without the snark for once please

Scummy. Not sure what you are referring to re snark

[SuperfluousNinja]

Bit much from someone who doesn’t even iso their own scum reads

And look at how fucking disingenuous this is. I specifically cited Naerys and explained you why I don't think it is worth diving into Naerys in particular. And you use this language suggesting that I don't iso ANY of my scum reads, ever, at all. Do you not see how manipulative, unfair, bad-faith that is?

[Oatsmaster]

The fact he gets so toxic is just another benefit of voting him out - we won't have to deal with that anymore and game instantly becomes more enjoyable.

This is super manipulative based on ninjas proclivities towards behaviour standards.

I don’t Think I have been toxic at all. Can you point out how this has been the case.

Because that is a serious thing to say to someone that is not about their alignment.

The fact he gets so toxic is just another benefit of voting him out - we won't have to deal with that anymore and game instantly becomes more enjoyable.

This is super manipulative based on ninjas proclivities towards behaviour standards.

I don’t Think I have been toxic at all. Can you point out how this has been the case.

Because that is a serious thing to say to someone that is not about their alignment.

I will say that for me the game has become unenjoyable (although I feel better now I've accepted my inevitable lim) due to the atmosphere created in the thread from players such as you and Oats. I realise now it's probably part of your plan as scum to create such an environment, where people are afraid to even vote you for what your reaction might be. The fact you gang up as well, it's pretty shitty to play against.

I wouldn't say that anything you've particularly said has crossed the line, so I will take back my 'toxic' comment, as maybe that was a bit harsh.

You are giving as good as you are getting tbh.

I found that comment to not only be off the mark but also highly manipulative in the way it was used with ninja, enticing her to vote your way based on a narrative of toxicity where there is none. Not based on alignment. But for personal reasons.

Really distasteful overall regardless of your alignment.

The fact he gets so toxic is just another benefit of voting him out - we won't have to deal with that anymore and game instantly becomes more enjoyable.

This is super manipulative based on ninjas proclivities towards behaviour standards.

I don’t Think I have been toxic at all. Can you point out how this has been the case.

Because that is a serious thing to say to someone that is not about their alignment.

I will say that for me the game has become unenjoyable (although I feel better now I've accepted my inevitable lim) due to the atmosphere created in the thread from players such as you and Oats. I realise now it's probably part of your plan as scum to create such an environment, where people are afraid to even vote you for what your reaction might be. The fact you gang up as well, it's pretty shitty to play against.

I wouldn't say that anything you've particularly said has crossed the line, so I will take back my 'toxic' comment, as maybe that was a bit harsh.

You are giving as good as you are getting tbh.

I found that comment to not only be off the mark but also highly manipulative in the way it was used with ninja, enticing her to vote your way based on a narrative of toxicity where there is none. Not based on alignment. But for personal reasons.

Really distasteful overall regardless of your alignment.

You and Oats have shouted me down for most of the game, including at times when I wasn't even talking to you (like when I was Iso'ing people). I think I'm entitled to bite back a little.

Absolutely you are, that is the game. But I have outlined where you crossed the line with that toxic comment and I think you agree.

I wish you hadn’t set ninja off but I think you did it on purpose so I will blame that on you

The other stuff is part of the game and having strong players with opposed views will always result in tension I don’t have harsh feelings towards you for also making the game suck for me. As long as we both acknowledged we are active participants (I even tried to disengage several times to give you space and get called mafia for it )

You said Luca is frustrated with Luca over "non-game related" stuff.

The first is frustration regarding influencing how I am voting in the game. Thus it is game-related.

The second is, once again, frustration about the fact that my game vote has been manipulated. That's game-related.

The third, same thing.

You can't argue that Darth's frustration is entirely over the fact that Luca appealed to my sensibilities, that Darth would have been equally as frustrated about it if we weren't all playing a game and he didn't have anything to lose in this game.

More importantly, you have this really, really avoidant way of talking about the issue. You treat facts and evidence like they are hot potatoes, like you can't wait to get them off your hands and not have to deal with them anymore. I'm not afraid at all to dive deep into the weeds and discuss stuff like this, but you get so incredibly impatient and defensive when I try to dig into stuff like this. You want to shut down conversations rather than seeing them through to completion. And that's very scummy in my book.

He literally says “not about their alignment” in the first post.
What the fuck are you talking about when you say it’s the same thing as Luca getting upset at his heavy heavy scum read

[Oatsmaster]

UNVOTE:

Bit much from someone who doesn’t even iso their own scum reads

And look at how fucking disingenuous this is. I specifically cited Naerys and explained you why I don't think it is worth diving into Naerys in particular. And you use this language suggesting that I don't iso ANY of my scum reads, ever, at all. Do you not see how manipulative, unfair, bad-faith that is?

You clearly didn’t iso me either or you wouldn’t have asked that previous question. Not really sure how it’s disingenuous

[Oatsmaster]

The fact he gets so toxic is just another benefit of voting him out - we won't have to deal with that anymore and game instantly becomes more enjoyable.

This is super manipulative based on ninjas proclivities towards behaviour standards.

I don’t Think I have been toxic at all. Can you point out how this has been the case.

Because that is a serious thing to say to someone that is not about their alignment.

The fact he gets so toxic is just another benefit of voting him out - we won't have to deal with that anymore and game instantly becomes more enjoyable.

This is super manipulative based on ninjas proclivities towards behaviour standards.

I don’t Think I have been toxic at all. Can you point out how this has been the case.

Because that is a serious thing to say to someone that is not about their alignment.

I will say that for me the game has become unenjoyable (although I feel better now I've accepted my inevitable lim) due to the atmosphere created in the thread from players such as you and Oats. I realise now it's probably part of your plan as scum to create such an environment, where people are afraid to even vote you for what your reaction might be. The fact you gang up as well, it's pretty shitty to play against.

I wouldn't say that anything you've particularly said has crossed the line, so I will take back my 'toxic' comment, as maybe that was a bit harsh.

You are giving as good as you are getting tbh.

I found that comment to not only be off the mark but also highly manipulative in the way it was used with ninja, enticing her to vote your way based on a narrative of toxicity where there is none. Not based on alignment. But for personal reasons.

Really distasteful overall regardless of your alignment.

The fact he gets so toxic is just another benefit of voting him out - we won't have to deal with that anymore and game instantly becomes more enjoyable.

This is super manipulative based on ninjas proclivities towards behaviour standards.

I don’t Think I have been toxic at all. Can you point out how this has been the case.

Because that is a serious thing to say to someone that is not about their alignment.

I will say that for me the game has become unenjoyable (although I feel better now I've accepted my inevitable lim) due to the atmosphere created in the thread from players such as you and Oats. I realise now it's probably part of your plan as scum to create such an environment, where people are afraid to even vote you for what your reaction might be. The fact you gang up as well, it's pretty shitty to play against.

I wouldn't say that anything you've particularly said has crossed the line, so I will take back my 'toxic' comment, as maybe that was a bit harsh.

You are giving as good as you are getting tbh.

I found that comment to not only be off the mark but also highly manipulative in the way it was used with ninja, enticing her to vote your way based on a narrative of toxicity where there is none. Not based on alignment. But for personal reasons.

Really distasteful overall regardless of your alignment.

You and Oats have shouted me down for most of the game, including at times when I wasn't even talking to you (like when I was Iso'ing people). I think I'm entitled to bite back a little.

Absolutely you are, that is the game. But I have outlined where you crossed the line with that toxic comment and I think you agree.

I wish you hadn’t set ninja off but I think you did it on purpose so I will blame that on you

The other stuff is part of the game and having strong players with opposed views will always result in tension I don’t have harsh feelings towards you for also making the game suck for me. As long as we both acknowledged we are active participants (I even tried to disengage several times to give you space and get called mafia for it )

You said Luca is frustrated with Luca over "non-game related" stuff.

The first is frustration regarding influencing how I am voting in the game. Thus it is game-related.

The second is, once again, frustration about the fact that my game vote has been manipulated. That's game-related.

The third, same thing.

You can't argue that Darth's frustration is entirely over the fact that Luca appealed to my sensibilities, that Darth would have been equally as frustrated about it if we weren't all playing a game and he didn't have anything to lose in this game.

More importantly, you have this really, really avoidant way of talking about the issue. You treat facts and evidence like they are hot potatoes, like you can't wait to get them off your hands and not have to deal with them anymore. I'm not afraid at all to dive deep into the weeds and discuss stuff like this, but you get so incredibly impatient and defensive when I try to dig into stuff like this. You want to shut down conversations rather than seeing them through to completion. And that's very scummy in my book.

Not based on alignment. But for personal reasons.

Really distasteful overall regardless of your alignment.

Again how the fuck is this game related?

[DarthPunk]

Oh I am interested in the alignment; I'm just not interested in analysis of Naerys herself, because there's just not enough to chew on. Whatever tools I want to use to sort someone out, I can't really use those at all on Naerys. You realize it takes like 5 minutes to read through her ISO?

My real life job is biostatistician, and in my profession, we often caution against even conducting a statistical test on anything with too little data. A conclusion based on small sample size is quite dangerous.

Thats a cool job. have you written any papers?

Mafia is not that though, we need to be able to infer probable truths from small pieces of information.

I do know her iso is really small, that is why it bothers me that you didn't

1.) read it when she was in your POE
and
2.) Notice what I did and rule her out from being mafia at least from the time being, or at least consider and dismiss it as being non-indicative of alignment.

[Vivax]

Doctors are just drug dealers and serial killers with a diploma tbh

[DarthPunk]

I'm really interested in that point that Oats raised regarding Luca, who ostensibly was so certain that they wanted a 1v1 play against me, and now is kind of backtracking and town reading me.

I don't think anything about my play has changed except I stopped hard pushing luca.

[Oatsmaster]

There seems to be a fundamental disconnect between your understanding of exactly what I mean when I say that Luca is scummy because he seems to be frustrated with his scum read and that darth isn’t scummy because he is frustrated with the way that Luca is acting which has nothing to do with the fact that he scumreads Luca.

If you scumread someone, you don’t have the same expectations of them than someone you townread, therefore it doesn’t make sense for you to have the same sort of conversations with them as you do townreads, mostly having to do with trying to convince people that someone else is mafia.

[SuperfluousNinja]

You know what, you're trying to trap me. I shouldn't fall into this.

To explain to the peanut gallery what this is about, Oats originally said he's going to scum read Luca because he can't understand why a player would get frustrated with another player for suspecting him of guilt unless he was indeed guilty. I pointed out that Darth seems to have done that back to Luca, and they probably aren't both guilty. Frankly I'm positive I could find all sorts of examples all over this website of people being suspected of guilt and getting frustrated for it,

even though they weren't guilty.

But Oats just will not let this angle go. He just....will....NOT....let it go. He is so adamant about defending this particular angle to scumread someone that he has debated about it for pages and pages.

Because the kicker is, Luca and Darth went back and forth for, like, a REEEEALLLY long time. And you can find all sorts of frustration from both of them, all over the fucking place. It's just that oats cherry picked this one particular part of the conversation and is trying to insist that this is the source of Luca's frustration, of all of it. It happened much later in the conversation, and there was plenty of frustration happening prior to that, but Oats is cherry picking this one thing and insisting that all of Luca's frustration stems from that one thing alone.

He is cherry-picking and discussing in bad faith. I don't plan on responding to anything else he says in this game, honestly. All yall are free to ask me what you want, but I am done engaging in these manipulative conversations with oats.