Large Normal 247 - Postgame

[Oblivion]

Greetings,

It has a major distaste for the idea that this thread was comfortable with putting a player at one vote to elimination prior to that player having ever posted. It is especially concerned with this from Dave, given that Dave was present for a quick hammer in quite literally a game that ended just yesterday. It feels like Dave can and should be more sensitive to that, and so must have truly wished to kill a player before a single post.

Dave, for what purpose?

[Oblivion]

UNVOTE:

Let's not actually do this lmao

i'm very much dissapointed in you Thomith

Not as disappointed as it is in all of you. Do you truly think this is an acceptable method to find scum? There are members here whose votes it understands. For whom it believes there is merit and a town mental model for approaching a wagon in this manner. It does not make it less disappointed in the very existence of this wagon.

[Oblivion]

note to self: read the 2nd page first

I don't think it's a bad thing to hit an E-1 like that, it will certainly provide good material.

What material? A Poisoned Well Opening to the game? Town or Scum, what player reacts within normal ranges to almost dying before ever hitting the thread? Do you think yourself so enlightened in the ways of player mentality that you will be able to discern town confusion and outrage from the scum variant? It doesn't think anyone can, reliably, and rather thinks that most natural responses from a player in that slot will be traditionally seen as scummy.

It dislikes the very idea. There's no foundation to base the reaction off of, so there's no baseline to test against.

[Oblivion]

UNVOTE:

Let's not actually do this lmao

i'm very much dissapointed in you Thomith

Trust me I'm disappointed in myself too lol.

Of course it would have been funny if this had actually gone through, but I got cold feet

With that being said, I do want to get some information out of Day 1 that a quick lim probably doesn't get us.

Naerys is probably right that there is a decent chance that the scum might have been hiding on the wagon as it was growing

With all that being said, this is not a Town Players Reply to this interaction after the unvote, it thinks. It lacks a proper mental model to be certain, but against the Generic townie model, it... the joking brush off into everything else which reads as Mafia 101 Pamphlet? It gives it bad feelings.

[Oblivion]

UNVOTE:

Let's not actually do this lmao

i'm very much dissapointed in you Thomith

Not as disappointed as it is in all of you. Do you truly think this is an acceptable method to find scum? There are members here whose votes it understands. For whom it believes there is merit and a town mental model for approaching a wagon in this manner. It does not make it less disappointed in the very existence of this wagon.

Whose votes do you think are more likely to be town motivated?

VOTE: Snow

VLA until Monday like in signups

VOTE: Snow

VOTE: snow

These ones, it thinks.

[Oblivion]

UNVOTE:

Let's not actually do this lmao

i'm very much dissapointed in you Thomith

Not as disappointed as it is in all of you. Do you truly think this is an acceptable method to find scum? There are members here whose votes it understands. For whom it believes there is merit and a town mental model for approaching a wagon in this manner. It does not make it less disappointed in the very existence of this wagon.

Whose votes do you think are more likely to be town motivated?

VOTE: Snow

VLA until Monday like in signups

VOTE: Snow

VOTE: snow

These ones, it thinks.

Can you elaborate please?
Most people voted without a reason, why are those votes more townie?

Because of what each vote meant. Gypyx votes to induce pressure and create content, Titus votes to validate that pressure after the second vote and make it realized and Penguin votes to solidify said pressure.

[Oblivion]

It also thinks the manner in which Penguin votes, in the posts he wrote after his vote, comes across within its mental model of Penguin from the prior game as Town. That is the one it is most confident in. Then Titus, then Gypyx.

[Oblivion]

obliving sure says a lot of words but i'm not sure if it makes it town yet

i'm kinda curious about how Penguin following usual penguin meta makes him more likely town when like, sheeping on a page 1 wagon is not the hardest thing in the world

It isn't meta, but rather a mental model. It attempts to make models of player behaviour by playing with and understanding how they will react situationally. It seeks to understand, then apply these lessons by asking itself to think within that mental model, and whether the response makes sense or if there is an outside influence that is affecting that response, then seeking motivation from being in that Model.

Having played precisely one game with Penguin, as it being scum, it got to see much of how Penguin approaches a game. It thinks that the teasing, off the cuff but effective manner in which Penguin approached his vote fits within its model of him and so it sees him most strongly as town from that.

Here is a question in return for you. If indeed the creation and reaction to these wagons are indicative of finding scum and town and sorting alignments, why is its method less effective than yours? What methods are you using, and from these interactions who is town or scum to you?

[Oblivion]

Penguin has the same philosophy that I have. Early large wagons are quite valuable to town. I think Oblivion's take on Penguin meta is correct. It would be a very easy thing to fake as scum, so the town conclusion is a but suspect.
I can't town bin Oblivion on that because its approach was very similar in the last game and it flipped scum. It's only a sample size of 1 so not very strong.

Perhaps you will have to adopt its strategy and attempt to model its mind to learn the difference. It understands that between the manner in which it speaks, its pronouns and its general.... Weapon Doll Energy, it is not particularly easy to distinguish.

[Oblivion]

Titus's vote isn't much more than a RVS, in fact it might be exactly that. I'd call that NAI.

It disagrees. It thinks she would have to have seen the wagon size and chosen to vote there over starting another wagon, no?

[Oblivion]

I interpret meta and mind model to be essentially the same, while acknowledging that Oblivion appears to see a distinction.

It views them differently, simply because Meta appears to it to be reflective and based upon examining "a similar situation previously occured, this was the response, why did it change here" and Mind Model is forward looking and based upon an attempted understanding of the manner in which a player solves problems to begin with. More along the lines of "this player is presented with this novel problem, how would they approach and attempt to solve it?" It acknowledges there may be overlap, but it doesn't rely on looking at past games to accomplish this goal. It can and does make models from a player from simply within a single game.

[Oblivion]

Ah, it apologies. It has been quite busy over the weekend.

[Oblivion]

It is still recovering and will attempt to engage with this game when it has a moment soon. Apologies.

[Oblivion]

It has some free time right now and it would like to do some solving with any player who is available. Is anyone available to go back and forth with it?

[Oblivion]

If you had a button to eliminate any player this second without ending the day, and they would flip, who would you choose?

[Oblivion]

If you had a button to eliminate any player this second without ending the day, and they would flip, who would you choose?

My actual answer to that is incredibly biased and probably unfair so for the sake of the game, I’d say Will’o.

It does not want your political answer, it wants your actual answer.

[Oblivion]

If you had a button to eliminate any player this second without ending the day, and they would flip, who would you choose?

After you’ve gotten what you’ve wanted from this, can you explain why you picked this question of all questions?

Why do you think it is asking this answer is a far more interesting question, it thinks.

[Oblivion]

V/LA for the next 2 days, I'll check in on my phone.

[Oblivion]

It has returned. Apologies for its absence. Where can it best weigh in?

[Oblivion]

It's prior experience with NAS is that NAS does not appear to be willing to offer much information in general, but it did see NAS play as scum and it wonders if this doesn't look slightly different? It feels... like a full model is escaping it but a partial model suggests this version of NAS is less defensive in nature.

[Oblivion]

It will happily kill NAS, but it doesn't think NAS is scum here this time, it feels different from the previous just slightly.

That said, NAS does not appear to provide much in the way of anything so it isn't bothered by the flip, especially because there is resistance to it that does tell something on both sides.

[Oblivion]

It is around, just having a difficult time investing in this game. Perhaps it just... doesn't find it as fun as the last one it played?

That said, it is satisfied that it was right about the difference in NAS, even if it wasn't bold enough to stand up to stop it. That said, it feels NAS' death would have happened at some point regardless so it's better to do it now when info is gained than when it becomes a foregone conclusion and nothing else is learned.

Still, it would be nice if it could motivate itself to care a little more. It isn't quite sure what the difference between last game and this one is. Last game it felt like there was an energy that kept it wanting to engage, despite the difficulty of being scum. This game... it feels like there's just nothing it wants to really do, and moreover it feels kind of like there's a barrier between it and the game? It doesn't know.

[Oblivion]

tbh i'm even thinking there could be 3 scum in the hood? like i'm getting strong town vibes from thomith but the other 3 not so much, there's also something a bit off about how they don't seem too interested in sorting themselves

This neighbourhood is pre-game made, not made by a role? If so, almost certainly not 3 scum within it.

[Oblivion]

It's different if one player had their choice of who to add to it, but if it was done by role assignment, it does not think that a moderator in a "normal" game would create a scenario in which half a neighbourhood is contained with scum, allowing for a total conversational domination of said hood. It's... it feels wrong.

[Oblivion]

threes probably a bit much. definitely one. potentially two.

This is statistically likely correct, still assuming the neighbourhood was based upon pre-game role assignment, yes.

[Oblivion]

if there are five in there at the start of d1, that's a safe assumption

It doesn't think that a role that during Night 0 decides 4 other players to join them in a hood is outside Normal realms, but it is not familiar with what this website defines as "Normal" so.

[Oblivion]

threes probably a bit much. definitely one. potentially two.

can i at least ask you to trust my instinct and not completely shove it to the side? i'm telling you the vibes are extremely off, i could also probably make a decent case on that

Why do we need to trust your instinct instead of just assuming "the vibes are off, so there's possibly 2 in the hood"?

Besides, it would behoove you as scum to say this if you were indeed the only scum in said hood. It's a great reframing device, to have us look at everyone in that hood save yourself. Dave's already on the block, Snow isn't favourable either... It isn't like this is a situation where it can just rely on "trust me, bro".

[Oblivion]

this whole normal guidelines split into three separate guidelines to reduce complexity just increases the complexity i have to go through to find out what is or isn't allowed in this game

what a w i l d decision

Meanwhile, it is just sitting here deciding whether interrogating Gypyx in French is allowed within the rules. Probably not, right?

[Oblivion]

threes probably a bit much. definitely one. potentially two.

can i at least ask you to trust my instinct and not completely shove it to the side? i'm telling you the vibes are extremely off, i could also probably make a decent case on that

Why do we need to trust your instinct instead of just assuming "the vibes are off, so there's possibly 2 in the hood"?

Besides, it would behoove you as scum to say this if you were indeed the only scum in said hood. It's a great reframing device, to have us look at everyone in that hood save yourself. Dave's already on the block, Snow isn't favourable either... It isn't like this is a situation where it can just rely on "trust me, bro".

this is partially a bianco setup, and bianco is a mod that loves to put "high concept ideas", and as i said, if i wish i could make a case for it, but really a lot of this hood feels like theater

So your argument is... in effect once again, "trust me, bro". Because... what, do you want it to go find the mod Meta of overlapping games between Alianna and Bianco? And then have it decide if indeed this is a high concept idea or not?

You're speaking in Fugazzi. It's not real it's faerie dust.

[Oblivion]

this whole normal guidelines split into three separate guidelines to reduce complexity just increases the complexity i have to go through to find out what is or isn't allowed in this game

what a w i l d decision

Meanwhile, it is just sitting here deciding whether interrogating Gypyx in French is allowed within the rules. Probably not, right?

i think it would be funny

It is a language we share, interestingly enough, unless for some reason you were Flemish and moved to france and your language of preference is more Dutch? But it sorta doubts it.

[Oblivion]

it's not like this is cryptography or anything right?

It thinks it would be google translatable, certainly. It just doesn't want to break a rule. That said, native speakers speaking in their own language feels... right? On the other hand online translation services can miss context, in a game very heavy on tone and context.

[Oblivion]

I’m an American that speaks one language, have mercy please.

il n'y auras aucune pitié KayJayQueue

mdr

[Oblivion]

threes probably a bit much. definitely one. potentially two.

can i at least ask you to trust my instinct and not completely shove it to the side? i'm telling you the vibes are extremely off, i could also probably make a decent case on that

Why do we need to trust your instinct instead of just assuming "the vibes are off, so there's possibly 2 in the hood"?

Besides, it would behoove you as scum to say this if you were indeed the only scum in said hood. It's a great reframing device, to have us look at everyone in that hood save yourself. Dave's already on the block, Snow isn't favourable either... It isn't like this is a situation where it can just rely on "trust me, bro".

this is partially a bianco setup, and bianco is a mod that loves to put "high concept ideas", and as i said, if i wish i could make a case for it, but really a lot of this hood feels like theater

So your argument is... in effect once again, "trust me, bro". Because... what, do you want it to go find the mod Meta of overlapping games between Alianna and Bianco? And then have it decide if indeed this is a high concept idea or not?

You're speaking in Fugazzi. It's not real it's faerie dust.

how about we just lim in the hood for now and when Titus / snow / Dave all flip scum i get the applause i deserve ok? Ok.

pedit : and no French is my native language, i'm a bit curious how much that would help you figure me out but i can play along with the exercise

It plays based on mental modelling, and yours feels incomplete. It wondered if using your native language would help it understand you a little better. It doesn't know if it is worth it or not.

[Oblivion]

it's not like this is cryptography or anything right?

not a mod - just saying how it used to be ruled. it creates private communication channel between native speakers that even if we were to use translation software, may have nuances that the software doesn't pick up.

This was its fear, for certain.

[Oblivion]

apart from obvtown oblivion ranger has as scum pepople scum!her would need to push back on and people who it doesn't hurt to have a scumread on

the top 5 having snow / titus / naerys is extremely jarring

{Titus}
{Oblivion}
{Snow2697, Hu Tao, Naerys}
{PenguinPower}
{KayJayQueue, Random Nurse}
{geraintm}
{Little Wil o' Wisp}
{Thomith}
{Gypyx}

How is it obvious town, and also, if it is obvious town can it leverage its status as such to assert a little more of its will upon the game? It admits to feeling disconnected.

[Oblivion]

(It is asking how both these players came to view it as town, to be clear).

[Oblivion]

It is here. Apologies. This game isn't easy for it to invest itself in.

[Oblivion]

It can't decide which of the replacements arguments it dislikes more. The issue is Ranger gives the vibe of "I am smarter than you I'm the best I can escape anything" and it notes they are being more open to those who may hold their fate. It can't tell if the ego is normal for them or if it is scum bravado for living due to lack of mental model.

Lycanfire's arguments just don't seem to go anywhere. It sees a lot of words with no real end point. Ending RVS is +scum? In what world?

[Oblivion]

Oh and it also wants to point out that the only alteration in its writing style from other players posts in general is the use of its pronouns, so it is a little bothered by "reacting so negatively but it must just be the writing style" to be perfectly honest. =/

[Oblivion]

Are....you always this self absorbed? It wants to vote you just for being annoying, frankly.

[Oblivion]

Your arguments are worse than LycanFire's. It is staring at the epitome of "just trust me bro" but it's worse than that because you have this over inflated sense of self importance.

It can easily see possible scum partners for you.

It does not think "justified confidence" is different than egotism, in this case. Especially since your response to being told you appear to have a large ego is to go "it's not ego if I'm just right all the time".

Can you at least pretend you are solving and not trying to use your status on the website as a cudgel to achieve what you want? It really doesn't like how you are approaching anything.

[Oblivion]

Ranger talking about Ranger is pretty typical. If they start calling themselves a god of scumplay, though, that's when they might have a red pm.

Ranger I'm at page 13, what about you? I have notes if you want em.

This does not inspire confidence.

[Oblivion]

If my arguments are bad that's one thing. Do you get anything alignment indicative out of it? There's more than one angle to view a post, and I think my contribution do have value.

It has no mental model for you and worse, when you make fallacious arguments as you have it cannot begin to tell whether you make them with an agenda, with no agenda, or simply because you believe them.

It is becoming more and more exhausted the more of both you AND Ranger it reads, because both of you inspire in it a strong desire to murder you simply so that it does not HAVE to engage with your styles of play.

[Oblivion]

Why are you exhausted by my posts? I'm acting in good faith here, and just expect the same treatment back. Can you give it another go?

Oh and it also wants to point out that the only alteration in its writing style from other players posts in general is the use of its pronouns, so it is a little bothered by "reacting so negatively but it must just be the writing style" to be perfectly honest. =/

[Oblivion]

Vote: Ranger

[Oblivion]

Ah yes, Ranger is topping the post charts with such hit posts as "Yet another list of names in which they change the order slightly without commenting on what altered the order in any fashion, allowing them to appear to come to a natural conclusion when in reality it can be used as a way to cover their intentions".

It honestly thinks that there is no surprise in this user moving it towards the bottom of their rankings after it indicated it had no reason to work with them and no good will to give them. These "reads" feel like they are fabricated to suit an agenda, so it just doesn't buy what they are selling.

[Oblivion]

In other words, it strongly feels like Ranger replaced into a scumslot and decided "I am the best scum player in this game, I must visable effort and escape this, and then we'll win for sure!" and so now Ranger has been posting ad naseum to Counter Signal themselves as scum. "Look how town I am, I'm the only one providing content! Look how powerful and useful I am!" It just feels like we're watching them put on a performance for our benefit and not one that actually solves or does anything of note or interest. Nothing that can't be faked, no actual interrogation of any player on their thoughts, just a soulless catchup that contains exactly 0 indicators of what Ranger's thoughts are, so if they are asked anything they can simply fabricate, but the gamestate is apathetic and dead so they probably suspect no one is going to challenge them.

It is of the opinion these actions are the actions of scum with a goal, the goal it described above, and that town would have come in seeking to work with others and solve, even if they were going to die, and get other players back in the game.

In the end, Lycanfire at least showed some desire to engage with it. It struggles to do so, but Lycanfire clearly wants town cohesion and growth.

Ranger was told that this manner of playing was harming the town and simply barreled through, because their goal IS the apathy.

[Oblivion]

That's E-1 I believe

From its count, -2 actually, since you unvoted?

[Oblivion]

2.11

Votecount 2.11

Ranger (4): Hu Tao, Random Nurse, Thomith, Gypyx
Naerys (2): PenguinPower, Naerys
Hu Tao (2): Lycanfire, Ranger
Thomith (1): Snow2697
Snow2697 (1): Titus

Not Voting (3): Oblivion, geraintm, KayJayQueue

With 13 players alive, it takes 7 votes to secure an execution.

The day deadline is in (expired on 2024-04-06 10:29:00).

Mod Notes: The combined mod ISO is here.

maybe i'm wrong on the 2:3 theory but we at least have 3:2

I agree with this.
I don't think I see a world where there are 0 scum in the hood.

I do think I want to do this though
UNVOTE:
VOTE: Snow

VOTE: Naerys
can u just vote me out i dont wanna read Rangers posts anymore

Can you just vote ranger

I suspect there's a very specific reason why you want us to vote Ranger?

If Ranger turns out to be Town I'll be coming for you.

VOTE: Ranger

Fuck.

I'm already voting them.

(That's how fucked this IRL week has been.)

VOTE: Ranger

We can do Ranger now. Ranger's response to me voting Snow was horrible. Ranger sees Gypyx and Thomlith won't be divided so she's moving them up her reads list.

Ranger, the difference between you and Willow is my townreads are active and people are posting now. If you think my theory on Wisp also applies to you, who are the scum that don't give a damn.

Frankly, it's easy to post a series of names gradually moving people where you want them to be over time with no reasoning.

When you do post reasons, they are clearly bad.

Ranger Snow +1 inactive calling it

Vote: Ranger

4 -1 +0 +1 +1 = 5 of 7. (Random Nurse was already on the wagon.)

[Oblivion]

That's E-1 I believe

RN was already voting her so I think maybe E-2? I’m thinking I might not get an explanation that I’m wanting for the shifting reads and I feel like I’ve been waiting quite awhile for what seems like a pretty underwhelming catch-up without much explanation. I want to put her at E-1 but I don’t want to accidentally hammer so we can get a claim.

Can we get a VC maybe?

Let it ask you this. When Ranger inevitably claims a power role as scum to protect themselves, will you consider that congruent with how they have played?

It doesn't.

[Oblivion]

Like, it can see it already, right? Closed setup meams fake claims are more viable, if someone is scum they will near always claim something. It just doesn't see a world where Ranger claims something and it believes Town PR Ranger plays this way. Or Dave, for that matter. It was Dave play a PR in PYP, an important one. It doesn't think those align.

So for it, unless Ranger claims a provable power role (like an extra kill or a Cop) it has very little interest in believing them.

[Oblivion]

*it Saw, apologies. Phone posting.

[Oblivion]

Additionally, examine Ranger's initial idea for calling it town. Something like that logic isn't something that can change that aggressively over the course of these pages.

Ranger said that unless there was no scum in the neighbourhood, its lack of knowledge about the hood and its opposition to the snow wagon indicate it is town. That hasn't altered so Ranger's lowering of it comes across as artificial due to the reasons it described at the top of this page.

All of Ranger's reads stink to high heaven.

[Oblivion]

Honestly, with how they played, I’d have expected Dave to be more likely to have a PR than Ranger. But since they’re the same slot…who knows. I’m heavily leaning towards no PR though.

Don't get it wrong. It has no interest in killing Ranger without a claim, certainly there are worlds where it is wrong and Ranger claims a Vigilante kill for example? Something provable that we can hold them to, even if it doesn't make them town by design it can be used for town value. (Though scum vig feels really strong is that normal?)

Either way, it will kill anyone in the game who kills without such a claim.

It is just saying right now, should Ranger claim tracker or doctor or one shot commuter or something, it is killing them regardless.

[Oblivion]

You shouldn’t have said that so openly because if she is scum, she’d surely pivot now.

It doesn't believe it will matter. If they want to claim.something provable to live one extra day without proving it, they are scum who will die anyway.

If they want to claim VT they can die. If they want to claim something else fake they can still die.

It is saying it fully believes Ranger must die today, excepting situations in which it is important their role lives.

[Oblivion]

Honestly, with how they played, I’d have expected Dave to be more likely to have a PR than Ranger. But since they’re the same slot…who knows. I’m heavily leaning towards no PR though.

Don't get it wrong. It has no interest in killing Ranger without a claim, certainly there are worlds where it is wrong and Ranger claims a Vigilante kill for example? Something provable that we can hold them to, even if it doesn't make them town by design it can be used for town value. (Though scum vig feels really strong is that normal?)

Either way, it will kill anyone in the game who kills without such a claim.

It is just saying right now, should Ranger claim tracker or doctor or one shot commuter or something, it is killing them regardless.

Scum Vig is only considered normal in Complex Normals.

So it is infact possible this game, understood.

[Oblivion]

That's E-1 I believe

RN was already voting her so I think maybe E-2? I’m thinking I might not get an explanation that I’m wanting for the shifting reads and I feel like I’ve been waiting quite awhile for what seems like a pretty underwhelming catch-up without much explanation. I want to put her at E-1 but I don’t want to accidentally hammer so we can get a claim.

Can we get a VC maybe?

If this remains true, then you should inform her that you have intent to hammer/e-1 so that she does infact feel compelled to claim.

[Oblivion]

This is its shocked face.

[Oblivion]

This is its shocked face.

Wait until you realize what davesaz's role actually was.

It has "Scum" as a modifier in front of it, which is all it cares about frankly.

[Oblivion]

I don’t think anyone should be discrediting every person that’s voting you just because you say it’s wrong. Obviously we don’t have a way of knowing what is and isn’t “correct” unless someone has extra info. You saying votes are not for valid reasons seems like an unfair assessment of the effort we are putting into solving.

I do find it slightly odd that there hasn’t been any kind of real counter wagon. That might be my only hesitation currently.

It's polarizing. Either scum are delaying or are comfortable. But here is the thing. There is suddenly an upshooting of possible wagons off Ranger now that Ranger is tryharding. It is almost as if the scum team got an injection of motivation with a replacement player.

[Oblivion]

Again, to reiterate, I am still at work. As such, don’t expect a response while I’m actively working. (I finish in about an hour.) Next post chance will be after, and only if I neglect my fiancé to make it.

No one is going to kill you on its watch without you saying your last will so there is no rush. Live your life.

[Oblivion]

I don’t think anyone should be discrediting every person that’s voting you just because you say it’s wrong.

Of course not.

They should be discrediting the votes by looking at the reasons for the votes and seeing

how terrible they are

.

Late, bbl.

This is it rolling its eyes through the back of its skull.

[Oblivion]

It is almost as if the scum team got an injection of motivation with a replacement player.

Is that accurate? If the scum team includes Ranger and she’s pretty likely to be limmed, wouldn’t a motivated team be aiding in this somehow? Unless I’ve overlooked some posts, I can always go back and reread but it currently seems like everyone is at least content with the Ranger vote. That is slightly worrying to me. Does anyone else have an opinion on lack of counter? Is this just paranoia?

Have you been paying attention to the manner in which Ranger carries herself? It has. Ranger is the type to go into a scum chat and tell them she is the best scum player in the world, and that she will never die today if they don't bus, and direct them and give them a game plan.

It believes, from its mental model of her, that she is the type to lay out a multi stage plan on how to approach the game, what fights to take and how to go about it, regardless of the competence of said plans it's certain to inject life into the situation.

[Oblivion]

In essence? Ranger is try harding and the gamestate is warping around her as a result. It views the manner in which the gamestate is warping to be scum driven, and that Ranger's reads and arguments are more fabricated than genuine, so it has arrived at the conclusions it has expressed thus far.

[Oblivion]

You saying votes are not for valid reasons seems like

an unfair assessment of the effort we are putting into solving

.

I do find it slightly odd that

there hasn’t been any kind of real counter wagon

. That might be my only hesitation currently.

Perhaps consider the contradiction behind the bolded.

To be more explicit;

You cannot seriously claim there’s been solving while also ignoring there’s no counterwagon, half the game isn’t voting, and

no critical analysis of the votes given has been provided

.

Have you looked at the reason for Random Nurse's revote of me?

How about Oblivion?

How about Titus?

Did you look at those reasons for voting and think, "this is valid, this seems to track, I have no disagreements with this"?

I’m willing to bet you didn’t.

So if you didn’t have that thought...

...Where's the alleged effort into solving?

Writing this and then quoting 3 of my accusations at you and "refuting" them with "no, u" is the ultimate in hypocracy, it thinks.

You're accusing it of not solving, of not having reasons for its take, you even go so far as to insinuate the logic it is using should somehow be used to see you as town meaning you AGREE WITH SOME OF ITS ASSESSMENT, only to also accuse it of not making any assessment.

You are flailing, using any words you think will save you at this point, any argument that might stick to the wall you will throw. It has become somewhat obvious because nothing you are saying is refuting my world view, it doesn't begin to engage with me to convince me otherwise. You are writing things to convince other people with very little content, and not to change its mind.

That is scum positioning play, not town attempting to clear themselves.

[Oblivion]

Also, can you not quote strip everything it writes into three separate posts? Write 3 posts if you have to, but if it gets triple pinged again it is going to lose its mind.

[Oblivion]

{PenguinPower, Thomith, KayJayQueue, Random Nurse}
{Gypyx, Snow2697}
{Naerys}
{geraintm}
{Lycanfire}
{Oblivion}
{Titus}
{Hu Tao}

P32

Well, I just did an entire page and a half of readslists with nobody else contributing.

Wrapping up here; it's both where I replaced in and fairly late.

I realize you'll likely want explanations

, review of the later pages, current reflections, etc.

As usual,

the most effective way to ask me about a read trajectory is to ask me what changed a read on a specific page

. For instance, what changed between 31 and 31, what changed between 23 and 24, etc.

Falling asleep now, be back tomorrow.

I very strongly believe this is Hu Tao as scum. Let me ask you; have you see Hu Tao give a single read other than "davesaz/Ranger scum"?
Does this match your experience with Hu Tao as town?
It doesn't match mine.

Hu Tao as town gives some of the most thorough indepth analysis a town player can give; this Hu Tao has one single read repeated ad nauseum since the beginning of the game.

I literally told you how to engage with me here.

You live in a faerie tale if you believe that it is going to do that. Consider that is has placed considerable effort into trying to care about this game, trying to read two slots whose posts it does not enjoy reading and has consequently come out with two reads on those slots it feels comfortable in.

It isn't its job to then decide "well actually, let it try and re-read Ranger in the way Ranger feels most comfortable". It is your job to convince it that you are town by coming to its table and engaging with it in the ways it is comfortable.

Or you can continue to just quote strip posts and making baseless claims that are clearly intended to petition outward not inward. If you've decided that you'll never change its mind, so be it but that is how scum approach the game. "Whose votes can I get?" It is as if you know who is town and who is scum and are petitioning with an informed perspective.

[Oblivion]

Ranger, if you're town you need to back it up. Getting into large quotes with the people in the thread hasn't dissauded them so far from sussing you.

You've said your piece and they've said their own. Unless you GTH think they're surescum, please pivot to your scumreads. Something new is needed.

This isn't about what is fair or right. It's about what is needed to redeem your slot.

I have misgivings about your slot. I'll go into them if you want. What I'm trying to say is that there are valid reasons to sus you, and you need to go about this a different way.

And look at the slot whose posts I dislike reading but I have found as town coming in and mindmelding with my exact take (in a nicer more neutral stanced way).

[Oblivion]

Like, if you won't listen to it, listen to Lycan. They're saying what it is saying with... more patience and less irritability.

[Oblivion]

Writing this and then quoting 3 of my accusations at you and "refuting" them with "no, u" is the ultimate in hypocracy, it thinks.

Perhaps when I’m not at work, you shall receive exactly what I promised?

I didn’t refute anything yet. I simply said I was going to when able to and current limitations prevent me from doing so until tomorrow.

It told you it was willing to take its time. That it won't allow anyone to kill you without your words being heard. So what you are saying is either you don't believe it will be held accountable to that, or you feel so desperate to control the conversation that you cannot allow anything to be said without having to chip in on it.

Which is it?

[Oblivion]

I didn’t refute anything yet.

Or I should say, I didn’t intentionally refute anything yet.

If the arguments against me are so weak as to be refuted when I’m not even trying to, I think that speaks volumes as to their validity.

It is back to rolling its eyes into the back of its skull again. Please refrain from causing this behaviour in it. It is clear that your posts are attempting to refute the claims, just not well. Its complaint has been registered that your posts are infact, for the most part, "no u". If you have more to say, please say it. It invites the opportunity to change its mind, but right now you do not appear town.

[Oblivion]

So what you are saying is either you don't believe it will be held accountable to that,

Some posts answer themselves.

You know, when it offers two rational explinations for your behaviour and then asks you "which one is it?"

It is almost like it understands you will be limited to an answer and can't tell which one it is, and is asking.

Responding like this as if you are so much smarter than it is and have ANSWERED VIA MY OWN POST indicates you didn't even bother reading the post. It was literally asking which of the two explinations you claimed, so why say things like this?

In other words, can you stop being condescending? Please? You're not better than us.

[Oblivion]

If you have more to say, please say it.

I seem to be repeating my life limitation a lot.

I gladly will say more! Tomorrow!

My worst work days are Monday and Wednesday, I’m usually free every other day.

What day of the week is it in America?

It. Literally. Told. You. That. You. Would. Be. Provided. With. All. The. Time. You. Need. It. Will. Not. Allow. You. To. Die. Before. You. Say. Your. Words.

Can. You. Stop. Condescending. To. It?

[Oblivion]

Again, to reiterate, I am still at work. As such, don’t expect a response while I’m actively working. (I finish in about an hour.) Next post chance will be after, and only if I neglect my fiancé to make it.

No one is going to kill you on its watch without you saying your last will so there is no rush. Live your life.

What part of "there is no rush. Live your life." did you fail to understand?

[Oblivion]

Lycan is right; I am losing my cool.

Perhaps I should channel my emotions into a final impulse.

I am a N3 Vig/N4 Jailkeeper

As I said.

Not something to claim, not something which will save me

.

It’s a useless role to claim on D2.

It will affect

nothing

reads wise.

So why the focus on my claim, rather than focusing on my content?

It isn't focusing on your claim, it is focusing on your content, and it wants a claim because it is Standard Operating Procedure.

[Oblivion]

i feel like if rangers claim is true then Hu should just fly through the window

The issue is, infact, if it is true. It is a claim that is only provable night 3, which means we can't answer it being fake until day 4, right? If we kill two townies on day 2 and 3, assuming no roles, we will be in MELO (8 alive, likely 3 scum) which means we do not have a lot of ability to answer.

This is a claim that explicitly says "you cannot actually answer me until it is too late" and even if it is true, it can be scum.

[Oblivion]

This game sucks.

[Oblivion]

Ranger's claim is so many levels of BS.

Does no one except it remember when Ranger bragged about how surprised it woupd be about her claim and then claimed the least surprising most obvious bait claim in the world that didn't match that tone at all?

What is going to happen is that Ranger will live today if you let her, live tomorrow on promise of shooting someone but you will never get that shot. Either they will claim to be roleblocked or shoot a townie and then if you go "okay time to sort ranger" it is MELO and you won't have space to do it.

Now is the time to murder this suspicious player with a suspicious claim. Town does not need a N3 Vig or a N4 Jailkeeper, and more likely it is a scum fake claim.

We should not be running up other players to claim to feed the scum more info on our roles.

Murder Ranger with it, they will flip scum.

[Oblivion]

It is begging players to see reason.

[Oblivion]

Ranger's claim is so many levels of BS.

Does no one except it remember when Ranger bragged about how surprised it woupd be about her claim and then claimed the least surprising most obvious bait claim in the world that didn't match that tone at all?

What is going to happen is that Ranger will live today if you let her, live tomorrow on promise of shooting someone but you will never get that shot. Either they will claim to be roleblocked or shoot a townie and then if you go "okay time to sort ranger" it is MELO and you won't have space to do it.

Now is the time to murder this suspicious player with a suspicious claim. Town does not need a N3 Vig or a N4 Jailkeeper, and more likely it is a scum fake claim.

We should not be running up other players to claim to feed the scum more info on our roles.

Murder Ranger with it, they will flip scum.

i absolutely murder ranger if she claimes RBed tommorow

but there is value in letting things play out

actually hmmm, scum vig isn't even out of the picture lol, this is a complex

Tomorrow???!?!!

Tonight is NIGHT 2.

You won't get to know anything until 2 cycles from now on DAY 4.

[Oblivion]

It is losing its mind.

[Oblivion]

It will only kill Naerys today.

[Oblivion]

I'm willing to go outside the hood today, because I will admit I'm 100% tunnelled on Snow right now. Rightly or wrongly, I guess we'll see.

FWIW this is where I think I am right now:

Gypyx
Naerys
Titus

KayJayQueue
Oblivion
Random Nurse

geraintm
PenguinPower

Lycanfire
Snow2697

This is an awful reads list and it thinks you can die after Naerys.

Lycanfire and Penguin swapped the momentum away from Ranger living to Ranger dying. It was the one responsible for ensuring Ranger died. Those 3 slots are town and never dying today. Snow and Hu Tao were attempted counter wagons to save Ranger. Also town.

[Oblivion]

Naerys. Gerantim. Thomith. These are the names that must die.

[Oblivion]

KayJay can also die.

[Oblivion]

Yeah, that is the PoE for it.

KayJay, Thomith, Gerantim, Naerys.

It thinks kill Naerys and Thomith and you probably win, you always find at least one more scum. If it isn't over... Kill between the others.

[Oblivion]

I'm willing to go outside the hood today, because I will admit I'm 100% tunnelled on Snow right now. Rightly or wrongly, I guess we'll see.

FWIW this is where I think I am right now:

Gypyx
Naerys
Titus

KayJayQueue
Oblivion
Random Nurse

geraintm
PenguinPower

Lycanfire
Snow2697

This is an awful reads list and it thinks you can die after Naerys.

Lycanfire and Penguin swapped the momentum away from Ranger living to Ranger dying. It was the one responsible for ensuring Ranger died. Those 3 slots are town and never dying today. Snow and Hu Tao were attempted counter wagons to save Ranger. Also town.

If I was scum why would I swing the momentum back to execute Ranger when it seemed that momentum may have begun picking up elsewhere?

Nope. It will not let you have that. Ranger was at E-2 with people still frothing for her blood. It thinks your vote is an easy easy bus vote. You did nothing to enforce Ranger dying.

[Oblivion]

Infact it has a special power where it can psychicly see into your scum PT? So it sees the moment where Ranger gave up and told you to bus her.

[Oblivion]

We will see. It is most amused you believe you get to dictate today.

Snow is off the table.

[Oblivion]

It is considering a Mass Claim at this point. We have had 2 nights of actions, it wonders if a third benefits us over forcing claims.

It would like to do this in a Popcorn styling.

[Oblivion]

Situational doesn't match. Lycan was clearly town from replacement and Peguin was disconnected enough to rejoin and simply believe the claim if he wanted. Town and Town. Ranger was very clearly trying to live.

[Oblivion]

There was a point at which Ranger was going to live yesterday, after the claim. For it, only Thomith or Gypyx can be bussing, because the others came along to nail in the coffin Ranger.

[Oblivion]

Have players casually forgotten that Naerys voted themselves because they did not want to read Ranger's posting anymore, only to them be ignored as a wagon choice by Ranger... And then TRY TO SAVE RANGER AT END OF DAY?

It cannot see past that dissonance. It views either the emotional reaction Naerys had to be faked or the emotional reaction was real but Naerys still tried to save scum anyway.

In either case, it fits Ranger scum partner.

[Oblivion]

It can add Gypyx to the burn pile. We are never killing Snow today. Not a chance.

[Oblivion]

Today is the day to Mass claim. 100%.

[Oblivion]

Penguin, it needs you to step in an be a voice of authority given your joindate because Gypyx is boxing it out with "experience" to get what she wants.

Snow is a terrible elimination today and we should infact mass claim.

[Oblivion]

It is of the opinion that a mass claim will produce more info to work with after a flipped scum that will allow us to force scum's hand. And that a Popcorn will reveal.... A Lot.

[Oblivion]

we are 11 alive with 1 scum dead

the pressure is absolutely not on town to massclaim

It puts pressure on scum. Two nights of results are sufficient. Forcing scum to kill power roles outside of obv towns is VALUABLE.

[Oblivion]

It cannot imagine a role in this game that benefits from a third night at this point. It values the knowledge for a solve more. Much more.

[Oblivion]

Let it reiterate its frustration.

It is very excited to be ignored today, shot tonight and ignored tomorrow.

It wants info to make a solve NOW while it is ALIVE. it has exactly 0 faith in a town that nearly let Ranger live yesterday.

[Oblivion]

Least of all a player who is inside the scum Poe who yesterday heard N3 Vig N4 Jailkeeper and said "oh thats provable and solvable! Vote Snow/Hu Tao!" and even when explained why it wasn't kind of went "teehee oopsie" and just kept on trucking.

[Oblivion]

Who else would it be?

[Oblivion]

PP is town without any shadow of a doubt.

[Oblivion]

It is to do with the fact that it cannot see the manner in which the player played before their exit as anything else, along with the manner in which they approached Ranger, yes.

[Oblivion]

It is taking a day off this game, its frustration with it is a little too much. It will return soon enough.

[Oblivion]

72 hours is absolute latest id have some stances worth anything

It would rather see your reads as well since you're just town. Also, honestly it does not wish to kill Snow.

[Oblivion]

On its phone, Psyche have you caught up.

[Oblivion]

It is so lost reading these posts.

[Oblivion]

Both these slots are town. It has 0 desire to kill Psyche or Lycan.

[Oblivion]

Killing it is a truly truly brain dead decision given how it played around Ranger yesterday but it is honestly over playing this game? No one wants to listen to it, and two supposed masons are deciding how things go. It is VT, it doesn't care. Kill it so it can stop playing this truly terrible game and either take credit for being right when town wins or laugh when town loses.

[Oblivion]

Tell you what.

It is fine if you kill it today, except, when neither Thomith or Gypyx die tonight, kill one of them tomorrow before ELO for it.

If they're town, they're hard throwing voting for it anyway, and if they're scum we get to deny this fake claim play.

[Oblivion]

VOTE: oblivion

Bestie-masons have spoken

Also, this is probably not a town post.

Anyway, it's gonna go AFK for another 24 hours again because it can't be bothered to care. The "masons" will either come to their senses or they won't, and the town will either enable them to do this, or they won't. If they kill it, town better flip one of them tomorrow so you don't have them both alive in ELO for 0 good reason.

[Oblivion]

Oblivion please come back. Your plan isn't going through. Even if it was a good plan it runs into Snow's problem: nobody will listen to you after your dead.

Ah but see, the issue is that it has lost all motivation to try?

It wants to kill Naerys or Jay. Pick one and kill them with it. But are players really going to go against the masons? Why does it matter, it has zero desire to convince players who have no desire to be convinced and whose egos appear to be too large to do anything but whatever schemes they can dream of.

[Oblivion]

VOTE: Naerys

Naerys being utterly silent while other people go under a microscope only to reappear again when they come back under pressure is not a townie mentality. It still worries about Jay but Naerys is in its mind the one who tried to save Ranger.

[Oblivion]

It should be frustrating if you work against Gypyx/Thomith here. You won't get anywhere with them if you don't talk to them, Oblivion. Don't let a problem weigh you down when you can do something about it.

Naerys seems like elimination bait. Can you go more into your read on Kay?

It can, it will need some time to be free to write in more extensive language and re-examine the posts that made it feel this way.

[Oblivion]

Naerys' arguments make about as much sense as Ranger's did. It notes they popped in only to defend themselves and are now scrambling to find alternative targets.

Naerys needs to be the elimination for today. Bottom line.

[Oblivion]

I know this won’t do me much good but I really think this is town!Naerys. So much of her frustration feels genuine and I’d be just as annoyed if I just got pushed out for being wrong (and I might be next, it seems). Maybe it’s because I’ve sort of been in the same boat as her much of the game, or at least adjacent, but I feel like I get where she’s coming from. She was wrong, but she wasn’t the only person who was wrong and it seems weird to not be considering anyone that was on the wagon to be bussing.

There is a difference between "being wrong" and "actively interfering in the Ranger push at the peak of when Ranger looked most savable".

There are plenty of players who were wrong. Not all of them used their limited influence to try and save Ranger by putting pressure on a known townie... who was then nightkilled by the Mafia that night.

It literally cannot explain this any better and it will consider future attempts to use the narrative of "someone must be bussing you're saying nobody was bussing" as deliberately misunderstanding the point and argument, since it and others have now made this argument several times.

[Oblivion]

[am not at all closed to joining the naeyrs wagon. just think these questions will help assess (and document) your vote basis/confidence]

Then it has no interest in answering your questions. Your posts already read like they are trying to setup onto voting it, and if you're never changing your mind, then it has no interest in wasting its breath with you.

Either you're town and so wrong it will never convince you, so it's efforts are best spent elsewhere.

or you're scum and chainsawing Naerys, which would require some thought processing from it, but is solvable just from that.

In either case, answer your questions provides it with exactly zero value, and given your stance on it already it doesn't feel it owes you even a lick of effort in trying to show it is town. It frankly doesn't care.

[Oblivion]

on mobile so i may be missing a post, but i'm not seeing an answer to the key question here:

why are scum more likely to be off the ranger wagon than bussing under the discussed timeframe?

or do you think this is not the key question?

The wagon was good.

fmpov-
myself, oblivion, thomith and gypyx are lock town. titus

should

be town because she isn't playing her scum meta at all.

that leaves randomnurse and yourself, and I liked penguin.

It agrees that there is at most 1 scum on that wagon given Thomith and Psyche are masons.

It doesn't think Penguin's or you join on to rescue the wagon from certainly dead including Penguin strongly saying "oh this claim is fake" which isn't how scum end up voting that it thinks?

So it would be randomnurse if anyone, agreed.

[Oblivion]

[am not at all closed to joining the naeyrs wagon. just think these questions will help assess (and document) your vote basis/confidence]

Then it has no interest in answering your questions. Your posts already read like they are trying to setup onto voting it, and if you're never changing your mind, then it has no interest in wasting its breath with you.

Either you're town and so wrong it will never convince you, so it's efforts are best spent elsewhere.

or you're scum and chainsawing Naerys, which would require some thought processing from it, but is solvable just from that.

In either case, answer your questions provides it with exactly zero value, and given your stance on it already it doesn't feel it owes you even a lick of effort in trying to show it is town. It frankly doesn't care.

this is a pretty oddly hostile response to some pretty solid qs imo

It isn't hostile, it's just correct. It sees no benefit to itself in answering the questions of someone who doesn't ever plan to change his mind, nor does it see a reason to pitch itself as town to such a person when they clearly already scumread it.

Why would it waste its energy on that conversation... ever?

[Oblivion]

Your inferring hostility where there is nothing but a caculated attempt to manage its energy levels in a game it is not enjoying, is... your own business.

[Oblivion]

all im obli saying is im not the last slot you'll need to convince if your preferred wagon is to succeed

... It can't read. It took the opposite meaning from your post it quoted. It needs to sleep.

[Oblivion]

What it sounds like to it is that you are uncomfortable with it having been right on Hu Tao, Snow, Ranger, and several other reads it has beyond Naerys, and that your ego isn't comfortable with its methods working.

Which is a frustrating thing for it to interact with because it can't be less than it is.

[Oblivion]

but idk like... that day, it kinda felt like ranger was fine with being limmed?

she did a lot of stuff that while it could be passed of as towny, was also goading people into wagoning her

This is such a wild take, it literally cannot fathom this. Ranger entered and immediately tried to upend the game to save herself, and nearly succeeded being down to two people on her wagon at one point before it started hammering home the issue.

Do you really think if it comes in and declares "Ranger looks much more town than Dave" Ranger dies that day?

[Oblivion]

As an example, this is its 125th post in this game. It has now been alive for 4 days.

Ranger was alive for less than one day, and this post will mark it finally catching up to her in post count.

The assertions that Ranger was okay with dying are so ludicrous to it, it's beyond its understanding.

[Oblivion]

massclaiming would be a good call i think. still feel reasonably committed to stance that oblivion's not the one for today.

It has wanted to massclaim since Day 2, personally, so it is fully behind it.

Popcorn method? It is even willing to be the first to claim.

[Oblivion]

context?

Like, i think it's pretty universal that scum don't like to bus on a base level

But ranger came in a pretty rough slot, with no PRs flipped, surely, someone is going to have to go deep to win it, and, you know, there's oblivion right here who's already pretty TR'd...

especially, what i think is the most damning is ranger just claiming and... whoops, gone, zero capitalization on some people's reactions

First of all, it isn't widely townread.

Second of all, it hasn't been exerting its efforts nearly enough for this.

Third of all, if it was setting up a bus on Ranger it would have done it in a manner to actually create credit and difficulty before doing it.

If you want an example of it using bussing to get ahead, go read its only other game on site where it was forced to bus both its partners to be widely townread as scum and lost because town had an auto solve.

And finally, on a more personal note, if it was scum this game with Dave who simply wasn't trying and then got Ranger who WAS trying, after last game where it was scum and forced to sit through two players who actively wanted to do nothing but game throw while it tried its best to dig them out of those holes, you had better believe it would have avoided bussing in every convievable world due to that experience.

Ranger was very clearly trying to survive, it spoke up and got so aggressive about killing Ranger because it saw her as slipping out of a noose.

[Oblivion]

VT.

Give it JayKay.

[Oblivion]

It will be a little annoyed if literally the whole game was just "there is a large neighbourhood that also contains all of town's power and everyone else gets left outside this inner circle.

[Oblivion]

Players should still, by rule, go through full popcorn despite prior claims. It is proper procedure to do so, incase players false claimed VT for example.

[Oblivion]

Town Neighbour


Popcorn to Psyche

VT

now geraintm claims

VT

now geraintm claims

Vt. Sorry was asleep

We should still go through everyone. VT. Oblivion is next.

VT.

Give it JayKay.

?

[Oblivion]

Ahh, ok.

Then RN? No sense in the masons who both claimed Mason claiming again.

[Oblivion]

It means... you can be, theoretically, two scum neighbours Gambiting. It doesn't find it likely but...

[Oblivion]

What in the world has it just read?

[Oblivion]

Can it say all of it?

[Oblivion]

It is saying the last three pages read like a fever dream.

[Oblivion]

I still believe

this is where i wrap gera's name in a vote tag

How we feeling about Enchant's wagon and about our claimed masons not dying btw?

It recognizes that their lack of deaths can be a gut check against us to see if we will kill one of them and then they kill the other tonight but it doesn't think they are getting shot tonight either with these kills. Hu Tao? Snow? Why were these kills made?

If we don't kill them today we have to just say " we believe 100% these are real and are willing to lose to this gambit".

Because it feels that 3 scum neighbours a town neighbour and a town vengeful neighbour plus 10 VTs feels... Like something someone might consider "balanced" frankly.

So what are your thoughts?

[Oblivion]

I still believe

this is where i wrap gera's name in a vote tag

How we feeling about Enchant's wagon and about our claimed masons not dying btw?

It recognizes that their lack of deaths can be a gut check against us to see if we will kill one of them and then they kill the other tonight but it doesn't think they are getting shot tonight either with these kills. Hu Tao? Snow? Why were these kills made?

If we don't kill them today we have to just say " we believe 100% these are real and are willing to lose to this gambit".

Because it feels that 3 scum neighbours a town neighbour and a town vengeful neighbour plus 10 VTs feels... Like something someone might consider "balanced" frankly.

So what are your thoughts?

I crumbed immediately, and me and Gypyx buddies almost immediately. It would have been completely crazy to have tied ourselves together so blatantly if we were scum together in a hood, and then pushed town to begin sorting within said hood on Day 2.
Even if we didn't claim this, we were so blatantly tied together by play if we were scum and one of us got executed, the other immediately gets executed afterwards.

Gambits are exactly how you describe them, though. Seeing 3 scum in a neighbourhood I would also consider claiming this.

It is just in a position where it looks at your claim and it fits just as well as a gambit play. And you and Gypyx's votes fit as players who initially wanted Ranger to live but once you saw Ranger was cooked Ranger stopped trying and you found your way back onto the wagon.

Mason or Scum Gambit you don't actually have a good argument for why you aren't the second one here.

[Oblivion]

We were either left alive because:
a) members of the town were doubting me/Gypyx, had outright said if we kept living then they would push for our execution, and scum kept us alive in hopes that this will actually happen.
b) those people doubting the claim are scum, and are keeping us alive to push a narrative and try and force a mislim at ELo if we get there.

Right except the flaw in your logic is that it has consistently refused to deal with you at ELO. It's before ELO or its never. It will not have a whole last chance day dedicated to deciding if we believe you or not.

We either resolve you both before then or we just agree to lose to it.

[Oblivion]

Like your arguments are super bad. Nothing you are saying is remotely persuasive or capable of being done by only townies. You are playing precisely in the range of the gambit.

[Oblivion]

I think they can be readily townread independently of their claims. For example, scum thomith doesn't casually clear snow by disassociation w davesaz like he did yesterday.

Well it had told them Snow was never dying even on Day 2. It had fended off like 6 snow wagons this game. At some point why not flip then murder them at night once you make that assertion to give credence to why they were shot over you?

[Oblivion]

We were either left alive because:
a) members of the town were doubting me/Gypyx, had outright said if we kept living then they would push for our execution, and scum kept us alive in hopes that this will actually happen.
b) those people doubting the claim are scum, and are keeping us alive to push a narrative and try and force a mislim at ELo if we get there.

Right except the flaw in your logic is that it has consistently refused to deal with you at ELO. It's before ELO or its never. It will not have a whole last chance day dedicated to deciding if we believe you or not.

We either resolve you both before then or we just agree to lose to it.

To be fair, to my knowledge, you haven't been that vocal in doubting our claim until today, so I was more talking about Random Nurse.

It explicitly told town that if you and Gypyx killed it yesterday and it flipped town to then kill one of you tomorrow (now today) to prevent having to answer this in ELO. It didn't feel like needing to distract from its other hunts but if it was going to die it felt it was crucial that you were resolved today.

[Oblivion]

Infact it also used the same logic wrt Ranger's claim. Gypyx wanted to save Ranger for testing BASED on that claim, then when it explained to them why that logic was wrong they didn't really retract or flip, just go "haha yeah you're right oops" and then ghost the convo for a bit and still not vote Ranger. Only once it got Lycan and Penguin onboard did it see you both rejoin.

[Oblivion]

don't think the bar should be "can only town do this?" but rather "is it reasonably plausible that scum would do this?" and imo the answer is no.

It is plausible if they planned their gambit this far in advance which theg would have to have done.

Let it grab you the interaction with Gypyx it had.

[Oblivion]

I think they can be readily townread independently of their claims. For example, scum thomith doesn't casually clear snow by disassociation w davesaz like he did yesterday.

Well it had told them Snow was never dying even on Day 2. It had fended off like 6 snow wagons this game. At some point why not flip then murder them at night once you make that assertion to give credence to why they were shot over you?

don't really see why this would be a big factor in their decision-making around snow as scum given that you have only one vote and also were nearly limmed yesterday

If they eliminated me yesterday my flip would likely have sunk them it thinks. Flipping me as town with the way they played it means town has to test them, no? And it was only really saved by you not by them.

[Oblivion]

Ranger's claim is so many levels of BS.

Does no one except it remember when Ranger bragged about how surprised it woupd be about her claim and then claimed the least surprising most obvious bait claim in the world that didn't match that tone at all?

What is going to happen is that Ranger will live today if you let her, live tomorrow on promise of shooting someone but you will never get that shot. Either they will claim to be roleblocked or shoot a townie and then if you go "okay time to sort ranger" it is MELO and you won't have space to do it.

Now is the time to murder this suspicious player with a suspicious claim. Town does not need a N3 Vig or a N4 Jailkeeper, and more likely it is a scum fake claim.

We should not be running up other players to claim to feed the scum more info on our roles.

Murder Ranger with it, they will flip scum.

i absolutely murder ranger if she claims RBed tommorow

but there is value in letting things play out

actually hmmm, scum vig isn't even out of the picture lol, this is a complex

Ranger's claim is so many levels of BS.

Does no one except it remember when Ranger bragged about how surprised it woupd be about her claim and then claimed the least surprising most obvious bait claim in the world that didn't match that tone at all?

What is going to happen is that Ranger will live today if you let her, live tomorrow on promise of shooting someone but you will never get that shot. Either they will claim to be roleblocked or shoot a townie and then if you go "okay time to sort ranger" it is MELO and you won't have space to do it.

Now is the time to murder this suspicious player with a suspicious claim. Town does not need a N3 Vig or a N4 Jailkeeper, and more likely it is a scum fake claim.

We should not be running up other players to claim to feed the scum more info on our roles.

Murder Ranger with it, they will flip scum.

i absolutely murder ranger if she claimes RBed tommorow

but there is value in letting things play out

actually hmmm, scum vig isn't even out of the picture lol, this is a complex

Tomorrow???!?!!

Tonight is NIGHT 2.

You won't get to know anything until 2 cycles from now on DAY 4.

It is losing its mind.

yeah my bad i misspoke

Night 3 vig Night 4 jailkeeper

this is what it is speaking of

[Oblivion]

In the end Psyche it thinks you are the only player it trusts to be 100 percent town here.

So if you say "we just trust this is town and lose if it isnt" it will gladly put the pressure of that decision on you.

It doesn't believe it is as clear cut as you think however.

[Oblivion]

set up spec isn't my bag at all. im still trying to work out if we are playing vs 3 or 4 and so if the showdown with gypyx & thom needs to happen sooner rather than later. i think they need to be tested at some point - i don't especially want to get into the end game vs them.

my gut says they are town, i've been assuming they are town, but i don't think we lose too much in killing one at some point.

they have to recognise that the rest of us have to doubt them and cannot give them a free pass the rest of the game.

I think they are not killed because they are threat for town, not mafia.

im not sure what this means - threat to town? you think they are straight up scum??

If you kill one of us, you are killing both of us.
it's not a "test it and let the other live", it's if you kill one of us, the other immediately gets killed at night

You're a neighbour. If we kill one of you the other one has a whole night to put all their final thoughts into a place where the last neighbour can post them for you.

[Oblivion]

I think that misses my point. I'm saying that it's very unlikely that your behavior convinced a hypothetical thomith/gypyx team that snow was unlimmable at the point in D3 where thomith cleared him.

It somewhat disagrees. It very much was going to choose to die before Snow in every case.

[Oblivion]

anyway yeah i'm pretty convinced that gypyx/thomith are town. i have seen a lot of posts from them that convince of genuine attempting to solve.
gypyx is a bit harder to sort, and the oblivion trajectory then remains questionable, but imo thomith's iso doesn't have those flaws and he and she are luckily a 2 in 1.

imo this dynamic is central to why them claiming pseudo-masons together was so risky. it did not at all absolve them of suspicion and either slot's flip would doom the other.
furthermore, at the time of their claim, they had no way of knowing whether town had an investigate or killing role (like snow's) that could readily sidestep the lim threshold to blow up their fakeclaim.

a pair with gypyx/thomith was always going to have better odds by playing distanced from one another, especially given the information they had D2.

If this is your stance then it will just follow this path.

[Oblivion]

It has been trying to convince you and you have seen its arguments and chosen to go a different path. Are you asking it to keep trying yo sell you on this? It told you it is today or never for it. You think they are town and it would rather align with its top town read than be split.

[Oblivion]

Apologies.

[Oblivion]

It will not be voting for Psyche, it won't be voting for itself. Those are rule 1 and 2 for it right now. In that order, actually, frankly.

[Oblivion]

this thread is kinda depressing to look at

It thinks you know whose fault that is.

[Oblivion]

Oblivion, we need your susses for the day.

It really has checked out to be honest.

[Oblivion]

It would kill KayJay Titus RN Gera today.

[Oblivion]

VOTE: KayJay

It is down to make a counter wagon, why not.

[Oblivion]

It would kill KayJay Titus RN Gera today.

why this order? don't think ive seen you talk about the relative scumminess of these slots

Not ordered. Just was listing names from its PoE that aren't off limits.

[Oblivion]

dislike that oblivion's reads haven't progressed since dissuaded from scumreading gypyx

What part of checked out do you not understand? It doesn't agree with you on Gypyx and Thomith. If those two are scum, there is at most one more scum and it isn't looking for those. Its reads were already done with Gypyx and Thomith as town as an assumption. Why would it change?

[Oblivion]

i guess i don't "understand" why you checked out instead of working to either improve, continually evaluate, or convince others of your reads

A lack of motivation.

[Oblivion]

Do you still scumread Kay despite her interactions with Ranger, Oblivion? Why do you suspect her?

Honestly it doesnt know. Should it just hammer Gera with 11 hours left? It doesn't really know what to do or if it cares anymore.

[Oblivion]

You know it could have hammered by now right?

[Oblivion]

You are so unbelievably dense.

[Oblivion]

You know what? Fuck it.

VOTE: Gerantim

[Oblivion]

You know it was not hammer?

It didn't no, actually. It didn't see you had unvoted.

It doesn't much care at this point. This game is lost regardless.

[Oblivion]

It voted Gera because there was 9 hours left, it should be going to bed soon, it was tired of this game and because it's technically better odds to vote Gera than to allow itself to die but honestly?

If it needs to die so be it. It can't fathom how anyone can see it as scum after it literally handed you scum on a platter day 2. Its behaviour was so far from a bus it's unreal. If Gypyx is scum, it's forgiven but otherwise, Gypyx is singlehandedly responsible for losing this game by manner of demotivating town and tunneling a member of town until it just didn't want to play anymore.

[Oblivion]

So make a call, but make SOME call before deadline hits, for the love of god.

[Oblivion]

I am not really interested in this.


From my pov i need to find 2 townies. Then assuming i am not executed, we win.
From your pov statistic is same. If you assume me as town then you really only need to know 1 townie to win while executing everyone else.


So let's just today agree on two players who are "totally town" and execute everyone BUT them, eh.

It thinks you need to find 3 townies because you aren't someone it feels comfortable living to endgame.

[Oblivion]

town:
Psyche
Lycanfire
Gypyx

maybe not town:
Random Nurse
Oblivion
KayJayQueue
Enchant

done!
i think at this point the only one on this list who might ever scumread me is RN. maybe enchant? i think i got kay totally pocketed if she's town. whatever the town-equivalent of pocketed is, anyway!

Mathematically you need one more town for auto.

[Oblivion]

Also, it stands by what it said yesterday. If Gera was town the game was over. It would be ELO today and it would have died to Gypyx's tunnel. It is glad it's faith in Psyche was rewarded, but it fully felt the game was going to end in that way.

[Oblivion]

Understandable. It can't say it disagrees with your list even a little.

It knows that it feels the correct choice is Enchant first, then probably RandomNurse. This likely ends the game but if not then it was right about KayJay (it still feels personally that KJ is more scummy but positionally it feels KJ gained less from a buss yesterday so it has bumped that slot down a significant amount)

[Oblivion]

Also, Thomith was killed over Gypyx in the thoughts that Gypyx may continue to tunnel it, is its opinion.

[Oblivion]

I am not really interested in this.


From my pov i need to find 2 townies. Then assuming i am not executed, we win.
From your pov statistic is same. If you assume me as town then you really only need to know 1 townie to win while executing everyone else.


So let's just today agree on two players who are "totally town" and execute everyone BUT them, eh.

It thinks you need to find 3 townies because you aren't someone it feels comfortable living to endgame.

Thanks for your opinion it will be disregarded.

You aren't who it needs to convince, this post wasn't for your benefit.

[Oblivion]

Again, not for you. It literally told you it has no plans of you living to endgame. It was a general message to the thread on plans that they need one more townie to auto. As it said to Psyche after.

Frankly it thinks you need to die first and probably even end the game. With the roles that exist 2 scum in the neighbourhood is far more likely than one.

[Oblivion]

I am not really interested in this.


From my pov i need to find 2 townies. Then assuming i am not executed, we win.
From your pov statistic is same. If you assume me as town then you really only need to know 1 townie to win while executing everyone else.


So let's just today agree on two players who are "totally town" and execute everyone BUT them, eh.

It thinks you need to find 3 townies because you aren't someone it feels comfortable living to endgame.

Thanks for your opinion it will be disregarded.

Ah yes, the classic conversation in which you tell IT that it will be disregarded, then when it tells you it doesn't actually care what your stance is because it would rather kill you and is selling this to others, you complain about not being talked to or interacted with how YOU want.

You didn't talk to it. You dismissed it out of hand and now get upset when it does the same to you.

[Oblivion]

there's really a non-negligible i bussed gera?

It told you yesterday you are its strongest townread. It's vote was always going to end up aligning with yours at end of day yesterday. If you had wanted you could have killed someone town yesterday and probably still have been immune to scrutiny. You could have killed it, for example with Gypyx. It doesn't see you as being able to be scum this game.

[Oblivion]

VOTE: Enchant

This slot was in a possible bussing slot on Ranger (Titus) especially with RN being probably town and was pushing away from Gera on day 2, trying to have Gypyx have control at multiple attempts.

This slot has a good scum equity.

[Oblivion]

Oblivion, why do you think RN town?

It wonders why after it failed on its hammer yesterday and Gypyx was ready to kill it, RN hammered before other slots could remove their vote and change the kill to it.

[Oblivion]

It apologizes. Dental surgery left its ability to be available on a regular basis at limits. It was around and showed up to prods but... it guesses there is a prod limit? GGs either way.