Large Normal 247 - Postgame

[Psyche]

ego

[Psyche]

have i done something to earn that

[Psyche]

can you explain why are you scumreading gypyx over this disagreement

[Psyche]

hey
i know it's unfair to ask
and yall are in the middle of something
but could i get a few more days to develop and share a take on the game before a vote happens?

i think this would serve two goals:
1) it would help people sort me, maybe improving night action choices and players' confidence in their own votes
2) i might have something useful to say!

in particular, these last few pages convince me that i can sort gypyx/snow this game.

even if i'm wrong or unconvincing when i try, wouldn't it help you sort me later if i did commit to a stance on these slots you're maybe limming between today?

[Psyche]

72 hours is absolute latest id have some stances worth anything

[Psyche]

is kind of sad but i don't think i've been in a game where the early self-voter turned out to be scum

[Psyche]

Think gypyx and snow are both town atm. Still haven't gotten through the reading.

The important difference between being mason and informed neighbors that I can think of is the gameplay if someone dies before claiming happens. An informed slot getting flipped doesn't reveal their info, but seeing a mason flip would be proof that there's another mason still alive whose claim would confirm them as town. etc etc

[Psyche]

oh right that can happen

[Psyche]

Mod created a neighbourhood of 5, had two of them know each other were town and so the pair of them could go shoot in the rest of the hood with a 1 in 3 chance of getting scum?

what am i missing
why can we assume there's >0 scum in the neighborhood?

[Psyche]

so i'll assume ranger was in the neighborhood

but that's not quite the question, as gera's post asserts that if the claims are true, you/thomith started the gaming knowing that there was 1 scum in the remaining 3 neighborhood slots

the q is — why does gera think that?

[Psyche]

think I lean town on RN too
this sure feels like the RN i fell in love with under the moonlight back in summer '86

[Psyche]

UNVOTE:

Let's not actually do this lmao

i'm very much dissapointed in you Thomith

T

rust me I'm disappointed in myself too lol.

O

f course it would have been funny if this had actually gone through, but I got cold feet :lol:

W

ith that being said, I do want to get some information out of Day 1 that a quick lim probably doesn't get us.

N

aerys is probably right that there is a decent chance that the scum might have been hiding on the wagon as it was growing

For the record, I crumbed this during my first interaction with Gypyx.

I assumed there was 1 scum and maybe a traitor in the hood because of this, because that would make sense to make me and Gypyx buddying more suspicious, to counteract us knowing each other were town.

Snows play today makes me doubt this theory a bit though

ooh ahh

[Psyche]

i think im close to narrowed down to these four slots:

Naerys
KayJayQueue
Titus
Lycanfire

have a good feeling about titus too but i don't really know what scum-titus looks like yet

[Psyche]

i know im playing a bit fast and loose by having a readslist before digesting more than a fraction of the thread but i don't see the harm as long as i'm not voting based on it

[Psyche]

the vote is because i keep saying stuff scum would say if they wanted to be cleared for bad reasons, right?

[Psyche]

in retrospect gera's 1757 already makes sense without this context;
gera was responding to 1752 that expressed the assumption that i now understand as commonly held

[Psyche]

no! but i am capable of discussing the game now

[Psyche]

what's the point of being coy about the reasons for the vote?

[Psyche]

i townlean the rest! imo it should be null at worst that you don't know my stance on the game given that i just got here and the thread has many pages

it is coy to lay down a vote without explanation. at minimum it puts the least possible amount of effort into either rallying votes to a scumread you want limmed or sorting the slot you're actually just pressuring

even after this explanation it's still a mystery what you found scummy about penguinpower's behavior

[Psyche]

that's definitely the plan! i'll need to decide if that's really the best pool at this point first though

could you try and explain what you find off pp's iso?

[Psyche]

these are really weak reasons for votes. is the thread really so barren of sortable content

[Psyche]

but why is it

scummy

? he doesn't have your pov.

[Psyche]

thomith seems to treat "antitown" and "scummy" like synonyms. sort of surprising from someone with a good number of games played

[Psyche]

is less that i find naeyrs scummy but that i find her posts since i got here less sortable
what i've read of her looks kind of searching though, which might be good reason for a townlean on page 5, but barely worth noting on page 74

[Psyche]

thomith seems to treat "antitown" and "scummy" like synonyms. sort of surprising from someone with a good number of games played

Do you think this is AI of me?

it's more of an important thing to keep in mind than sortable on its own.
posts that might make me go "huh" might now fit into a pre-established pattern,
cases i make might appeal to your point-of-view.
et cetera

i'm close to willing to bet the game that you're town based on the play i've seen so far (you and gypyx) and the strength of your claim.
mostly the latter but the former's important too.
i suspect i'll find that you two were a major force behind the ranger lim too

is kind of interesting too that you seem to see RN as a real threat;
the chances of you or gypyx being limmed today seem extremely remote
and furthermore feel like in your shoes i might have been excited at the prospect of this sketchy new replacement doing something as wild as sheeping against the mason claims
you and i are definitely different people
but who caresss

[Psyche]

wonder if this is your first extended interaction with RN in a game? i got acquainted with this style around a month ago. so charming

[Psyche]

haha. he thinks you calling yourselves masons might be a scumslip! could you imagine if he turned out to be a vig this game

[Psyche]

im sorry rn. i don't mean to insult you. i like you quite a lot. we are different people but we can dance all the same

[Psyche]

im sorry rn. i don't mean to insult you. i like you quite a lot. we are different people but we can dance all the same

Town is my strongsuit—I stay active, in-your-face, aggressive, and love getting exchanges going. I've caught Scum quite a few times based on what they incautiously said during those prior exchanges. Some players are archers while others are dual-wielders.

This rings true! I don't usually like your reads but you do reliably dig out sortable content.

[Psyche]

i got a private topic for the part of the re-read where i give underbaked hot takes on arbitrary posts as im reading but if yall'd rather see those lemme know

[Psyche]

i love how serious he gets when he says stuff like that. like we're in a liam neeson movie.

[Psyche]

1.07

Votecount 1.07

davesaz (4): Titus, geraintm, Hu Tao, Snow2697
Hu Tao (3): davesaz, NotAScum, PenguinPower
Little Will o' Wisp (2): Gypyx, JacksonVirgo
Titus (1): Naerys
JacksonVirgo (1): Thomith
NotAScum (1): KayJayQueue

Not Voting (3): Random Nurse, Oblivion, Little Will o' Wisp

With 15 players alive, it takes 8 votes to secure an execution.

The day deadline is in (expired on 2024-03-25 12:26:37).

man just getting to this votecount was a journey
i actually find gypyx's point about wisp looking really self-conscious pretty compelling
not sure if i find it convincing but i feel like i'd have confidently townread gypyx by

that

post
conversely i think i'll learn a lot from interpreting votes for gypyx today

[Psyche]

RN...what are the relevant features of being a mason that make the role a mason?

[Psyche]

woah! dave was ranger! i get to see what he's like as scum.

[Psyche]

1.08

Votecount 1.08

Little Will o' Wisp (5): Gypyx, JacksonVirgo, Thomith, PenguinPower, davesaz
davesaz (4): Titus, geraintm, Hu Tao, Snow2697
Hu Tao (1): NotAScum
NotAScum (1): KayJayQueue
PenguinPower (1): Naerys
Naerys (1): Little Will o' Wisp

Not Voting (2): Random Nurse, Oblivion

With 15 players alive, it takes 8 votes to secure an execution.

The day deadline is in (expired on 2024-03-25 12:26:37).

Mod Notes: The combined mod ISO is here.

otoh if there's additional evidence elsewhere in the game, dave swinging to willow in this context could support a finding that the two are not in the same team

[Psyche]

penguinpower's shitposts this game have been kinda peak
what a waste

[Psyche]

NAS is a somewhat sus, what little there is. Probably not worth a yeet unless we think being quiet is an actual scumtell for him.

I think being quiet is a towntell for him

They were scum.with me in my.lasy game and were silent then

heyyy
this was true
gera was pretty silent in that game too

[Psyche]

i'd actually really love a check on naeyrs that would be a really helpful call. in fact, i would feel some surprise if i learned that there is an investigative role in this game who has not touched naeyrs yet. unless it is naeyrs i guess!

[Psyche]

sorrrry nurse i am pretty confident already that they are town :]

[Psyche]

is RN an actual nurse!?

[Psyche]

wow this game will be worth it for the lore alone

[Psyche]

*lightly scratches surface with knife*

woah! what are you going to do with that knife?

[Psyche]

why do i have all this crap in my sig when it could be an RN quote

[Psyche]

I think I have too many townreads. This always happens to me by D3 i guess.

[Psyche]

ooh burn

[Psyche]

I wish more of you Muppets would enter the Thunderdome.

goes hard

[Psyche]

im at page 25 and have to do other things besides play mafia today im sorry for not being mroe focused everyone

[Psyche]

Psyche
Thomith
Random Nurse
Gypyx

Oblivion
geraintm

Naerys
Lycanfire

Snow2697
KayJayQueue
Titus

here's my more conservative read list atm
top tier is "id bet game these are town"
mid tier is "i normal townread these"
second-to-bottom tier is "i expect to townread these"
bottom tier is null. just null.

[Psyche]

titus is very hard to read -- a rather muted and i daresay stilted style
i see a ranger vote in her iso, could be useful for sorting later depending on the timing
249 where she calls davescum and willowtown should actually lean me town too somewhat
...ok i guess i've talked myself into sticking her with naeyrs/lycanfire again

[Psyche]

the oblivion townread (and maybe also the geraintm townread -- but there's meta baked into that) are sort of vibes-based atm so it would be stretching too early to try to elaborate on them
but i'll definitely prioritize finding good language to back these up now that i know the slot is still in question

[Psyche]

Was Dave/Ranger slot distancing/fake-fighting with any players in early game?

not seeing anything in particular that makes me suspect this

[Psyche]

by the way, my super hot take is that kayjayqueue might be scum again!

I still think one of Naerys, Kay and Oblivion is scum for their response to the Snow wagon. And Naerys is the only one of those three who commented on it (when she complained about my mocking tone).

I tried to pick a fight with Naerys, but unfortunately she declined to give me one.

Bold of you to accuse 3 people that aren’t currently voting for you when you only need 3 more votes to get hammered. Thats fun, I like it.

Maybe I just don’t understand the finger pointing. It’s really easy to be on a wagon and then jump off (but not be the first to jump off, just in case, you know, it works) and wall post about how informative it was as if we’re supposed to just dismiss him being on the wagon as well. Feels like a good way to control the narrative, and continuing to reiterate the same reads as an attempt to get the vote off him.

im too tired to elaborate on why atm but these two posts were where i initially got the hunch
i initially thought that kay was doing an insightful sorting take in 260, but 266 recontextualizes differently
it felt like seeing a spark of magic get deliberately suppressed, made me wonder if kay is really trying to sort slots after all.

anyway, reading the whole thread will be but the first step to me getting great reads about the game :(

[Psyche]

Would it be too WIFOMY to believe scum likely don't do that to a partner that quickly?

i think so yeah
but otoh i know davesaz to be a rather cautious player, arguably disinclined to sort of fun that putting a scumbud to L-1 might involve

[Psyche]

actually yeah i'm with thomith; i think it's a reasonable guess that dave's snow vote discounts the pairing. because of dave's personality.

[Psyche]

we don't know if that's town-naerys thing or an always-naeyrs thing though. or at least i dont

[Psyche]

i am like unsubscribing from this thread for a day. can you believe ive been getting an email everytime someone posted here. why would i do that to myself

[Psyche]

ctrl-fing my and pp's names in that kjq post doesn't find any rationale for why im scum

[Psyche]

VOTE: kjq

also, im kinda surprised gypyx still scumreads me!

all of the votes for me are quite mysterious. penguinpower must have been quite the rascal

[Psyche]

- if you yourself were caught up on the game, you'd have noticed the several times i've said that i'm not
- 1291 is almost 30 pages ago!

[Psyche]

Then why are you voting without the full scope of the game?

I think it's reasonably likely that you're scum based on what I've read.

[Psyche]

VOTE: PenguinPower

Until I figure out which person from the neighborhood I think is the best to vote, I’m using my vote to give information about what I’m thinking, since apparently not voting is the work of the devil according to some. (sorry for being hyperbolic) But also, if wanting to glean info from someone’s voting history if they are killed/limmed is a big thing, I don’t mind this being put out there.

I don’t like Day 2 from Penguin. I didn’t really love his D1 either. Maybe it’s just his playstyle but continually prodding people to vote and saying they add nothing to the game unless they vote is odd to me since he seems to vote randomly with no explanation a good amount of the time. He says talk is meaningless yet votes (sometimes) with no (obvious) incentive. Seems like he does that so he can retroactively come up with any explanation he wants for his votes.

This justification for kjq's attitude re: PP is very leaky in its reasoning and lacks a convincing sorting mindset.

What I mean by

sorting mindset

is that the post and content following up on the post are missing straightforward efforts to clarify ambiguity in her best guesses around the game state.

In this post, KJQ acknowledges two possible explanations for what she dislikes about PP's vote-focused playstyle -- that 1) he's two-faced/hypocritical scum, and 2) that this is just the way he plays mafia.

KJQ acknowledges that pp's posting could be NAI but makes no real effort to sort between this account and the PP-scum. Instead opting to the interpretation that PP's play is scum-motivated

without providing any justification for this choice

or any attempt here or in downstream posts to further clarify this choice.

Kjq's iso demonstrates no apparent effort at deciding between these two possibilities she herself marks as plausible. She could have tried to look at PP's past games for similar patterns. She could inquired for examples of durable commitment to this style from PP himself or other players with experience with him. She could have probed examples in PP's iso of where he may have used the ambiguity in his votes to potentially advance a scum win condition.

I'm not seeing examples of any of this. Instead, the trajectory of KJQ's reads are pretty flat.

I've noticed this pattern of coasting and disinterest in real sorting is in her earlygame posts too. In an earlier post, I highlighted this in a sequence of posts around willow (who got replaced by lycanfire). kjq observed that willow's choices of who to focus criticism on did not appear opportunistic -- it focused on people who weren't voting for their slot -- but declined real reflection on whether that was alignment-indicative in either direction.

Despite purportedly laying out a read on PP, I think the post quoted here has the same problem. KJQ lays out relevant facts but doesn't make a serious attempt at weighing them, or at improving an initially ambiguous take afterwards.

[Psyche]

i guess that overlong post can be summed up in one question:
kqj, if you thought there was a reasonable chance that PP's posting was just his playstyle, what have you done to rule out or discount this possibility?

[Psyche]

I DO think it's a Scumtell when a player has only Townreads and Nullreads, no Scumreads.

well now i do have a scumread and a few posts talking about it

but also i have plenty of other games where i'm town and similarly focused on solving through townreads than vice versa. i think you were in a recent one of those!

[Psyche]

I DO think it's a Scumtell when a player has only Townreads and Nullreads, no Scumreads.

well now i do have a scumread and a few posts talking about it

but also i have plenty of other games where i'm town and similarly focused on solving through townreads than vice versa. i think you were in a recent one of those!

When exactly was that?

uh...
on this page?

[Psyche]

uh the last one
and maybe the one before that?
the posts about kjq?
you were there

oh, game!
the one with you and kjq

[Psyche]

but why? i happen to know his faction so maybe with some specifics maybe i can use my special knowledge to help you get some correct reads

[Psyche]

i think kay is doing the same thing as in that other game

the wallpost doesn't attempt to address my core problem with her iso. it's excuses that should frankly be stale at this point and tries to explain in terms of a gap in apparent skill what is actually a gap in apparent interest.

it doesn't take experience to be genuinely interested in whether your reads are correct or not. all it takes is being town and caring about winning as town.

imo kay's posts only barely veil that she doesn't really care if her reads are correct this game

[Psyche]

kqj, if you thought there was a reasonable chance that PP's posting was just his playstyle, what have you done to rule out or discount this possibility?

quoting the q

[Psyche]

as i said, am not super keen re your ability to form good read

[Psyche]

misrepresents the case again and dodges the question again

holding it over yall when it turns out i'm right. (yall are welcome to do the opposite if goes the other way)

[Psyche]

I've provided detailed reasons I think you're nit invested in having correct reads. In that context, it is unduly dismissive to call my stance ridiculous. It's also frankly insulting to assert that I've only said these things to make someone upset. I'm actually really against making people upset on a moral level! I am just trying to develop my reads and play the game.

[Psyche]

kqj, if you thought there was a reasonable chance that PP's posting was just his playstyle, what have you done or used to rule out or discount this possibility? Is the answer "nothing"? I know it's inconvenient if it's nothing, but a clear answer would objectively help town sort whether what I'm saying has any merit.

[Psyche]

I am not really berating you. I am articulating a scumread.

[Psyche]

Tell me how I'm supposed to play the game if I think you're scum at this moment? What would I need to do differently for me to convey that I think your posts are insincere without making you upset?

[Psyche]

bahhh

you're wrong

UNVOTE:

[Psyche]

still think you have a habit of underselling yourself

a big part of why i'm open to scumreading you is that i know from experience that you're very good at playing as scum

this might seem unfair but it's the burden of proficiency every skilled player deals with once they have a game history.

[Psyche]

wow lycanfire is also like a movie character
what a playerlist

[Psyche]

Psyche
Thomith
Random Nurse
Gypyx

Oblivion
geraintm

Naerys
Lycanfire

Snow2697
KayJayQueue
Titus

here's my more conservative read list atm
top tier is "id bet game these are town"
mid tier is "i normal townread these"
second-to-bottom tier is "i expect to townread these"
bottom tier is null. just null.

updated impressions before another dozen pages:

Psyche
Thomith
Random Nurse
Gypyx

KayJayQueue
Snow2697
Titus

Naerys
Lycanfire
Oblivion
geraintm

I'll also aim for a clarified sorting:
top tier: i will bet the game that these are town
mid-tier: i can towncase these slots and the case would probably be accurate
low-tier: i might be able to towncase these slots but the case would maybe be wrong

top and mid tier are sorted, but bottom tier isn't
there's a missing tier -- scum -- that I'll add if/when I find a scumread genuinely unimpeachable.

RN is right that I should have scumreads, but unless I find really obvious lies, in general I prefer a strategy of searching for confident townreads that i can bet the game on, and mainly treat scummy posts as barriers to entry into confident townread territory.
This type of play admits fewer mistakes in my experience, and town-confirming behaviors are more common in mafia games than scum-confirming anyway.

In case people think this is a sign of wishy-washiness, I wanna assure you all that once I have my poe nailed down to a tight enough group, I will probably push it pretty stridently, and commit to it on pain of embarassment.

[Psyche]

VOTE: Willow
is a worthy wagon.

This vote brought the counterwagon to davesaz's wagon (which had 4 people) to 5 people after two quick votes on willow by thomith and pp beforehand.
Part of me wants to interpret it as a sign that dave and willow aren't in a team, but it's hard to weight much as an anti-relational tell given that a lim required 8 votes on D1.
So dave's vote is kind of safe, and didn't shift any real momentum on its own.

[Psyche]

1.08

Votecount 1.08

Little Will o' Wisp (5): Gypyx, JacksonVirgo, Thomith, PenguinPower, davesaz
davesaz (4): Titus, geraintm, Hu Tao, Snow2697
Hu Tao (1): NotAScum
NotAScum (1): KayJayQueue
PenguinPower (1): Naerys
Naerys (1): Little Will o' Wisp

Not Voting (2): Random Nurse, Oblivion

With 15 players alive, it takes 8 votes to secure an execution.

The day deadline is in (expired on 2024-03-25 12:26:37).

Mod Notes: The combined mod ISO is here.

uhhhhh
hmmm
uhhh
hmmmm

nahhh let's see if i can form a read apart from all this

[Psyche]

Questions from Gypyx and geraintm make sense.
I do not rule out possibility that Wisp is scum who tries to compromise three town players (Kay - Oblivion - Naerys).
But what worries me most of all here is that Naerys is refusing to respond to questions about her thinking and its reasons.

I will say in a recent completed game as Town Naerys refused to answer my questions so we yeeted her. She's done this as Town.

same! what kind of play does sort naeyrs then? im having a hard time imagining how i decide i scumread a player with this meta instead of just thinking they make a lot of bad decisions
no matter what page i show up in on this thread the question imposes itself on me
does anyone still alive have a theory of what naeyrs scum looks like?

[Psyche]

buddy - i want people to vote becuase it creates objective information to look back on once there are flips. this is a stance that i am well known for taking. there's nothing more to it than that.

still hard to shrug off how weird it is that stuff like this is public information and established in the thread but a basis for a scumread by page 80 or whatever

[Psyche]

Just because a wagon is big(ger) doesn’t make it the right move.

And I say this as someone who is still willing to vote Will’o. I’m just saying I don’t think that’s a great way to look at wagons.

Wanna vote dave?

Oh no is this the peer pressure my mom warned me about…

davesaz declined

I wouldn't be opposed to a NotAScum wagon here either I don't think.

Finally, I’ve found my people lol I only unvoted him because I didn’t think anyone cared about him (which I believe is his strategy)

Maybe I shouldn’t second guess myself.


VOTE: NAS

NAS accepted...but seems genuine tbh

tbf i would be fine with a NAS yeet. worked out very well last time.

boooooooo

[Psyche]

Titus pretty strongly beat the wisptown/davescum drum early D1; can be said to have derailed the wisp wagon herself. But shifted to NAS kinda suddenly and then stuck to that for rest of game. Maybe I'm not respecting deadline pressure enough to understand why. But townlean does seem substantially supported, at least from D1 play.

[Psyche]

The resistance to NAS is telling.

god i hate this trope

[Psyche]

Think willows VT claim pretty much clinches him as town for me.

[Psyche]

Spoiler: kayjayque trajectory on NAS

If you had a button to eliminate any player this second without ending the day, and they would flip, who would you choose?

My actual answer to that is incredibly biased and probably unfair so for the sake of the game, I’d say Will’o.

It does not want your political answer, it wants your actual answer.

NotAScum

Maybe I shouldn’t second guess myself.


VOTE: NAS

Has anyone played with NAS when he’s town? Does he do the same thing? I only have one game with him so I’m worried about being too confident his day 1 actions are AI. Though now that there are multiple votes on him, maybe he’ll appear and say something helpful.

Has anyone played with NAS when he’s town? Does he do the same thing? I only have one game with him so I’m worried about being too confident his day 1 actions are AI. Though now that there are multiple votes on him, maybe he’ll appear and say something helpful.

I played. And yes, he did the same thing as town.

Well then I have no idea how to read him then.

As I said, my NAS vote is purely biased from how he plays day 1 and how while apparently not AI as others noted, he was scum the last time he did it in a game why me. If he’s town…maybe I’m just overly invested right off the bat but I just don’t get purposely disengaging for all of day 1.

I was leaning Will’o earlier but the vt claim…I don’t really know what to do with that. Again, my experience is limited but the last time someone claimed vt with a wagon on them on D1, they actually had a PR. So now Will’o is a big question mark for me because I don’t even have a guess on if it’s vt, pr or scum.

NAS not posting will never be indicative of him having or not having a PR lol

I don’t really have an opinion either way on Dave vs NAS, the person I wanted to lim today got to 5 votes at one point but then most people backed off the wagon so I doubt that’s going to happen.

When I saw the final post in this sequence, I was really surprised and suspicious because it seemed like kay was the igniting force behind the NAS wagon in 452. But posts in between do seem like a natural progression away from that scumread, which I suppose was pretty ambivalent in the first place. So ultimately this sequence comes off as organic and helps me see how kay could be town.

[Psyche]

This Scumteam may be incompetent.

Virgo clearly is low info kill
this comment doesnt sit well with me
VOTE: Nurse

find this post mysterious
why would killing a slot no one clearly scumreads or townreads be low info?
JV would have been a valid vig target
would like if naeyrs could explain her thinking here

[Psyche]

I agree with thomith that snow's suspicion of me / thomith reads like trying to break a towncore creating itself, especially since his read is not based on anything more than "they townread each other"

ahah so unfair! you suspected snow for basically noticing that you two shouldn't townread each other so strongly given public information

[Psyche]

This is really bad timing given wagon state, but I'm probably not going to have much further time for this game through Sunday evening.

[Psyche]

all of gera's votes are bad
but he's definitely playing differently from that game where he was scum
i want to think he's just learning that coasting is not the mosting

[Psyche]

yeah i hate that you do that day 1 thing but i understand that as NAI for you
even beyond that though all of your votes have probably always been on town, and also not super well motivated
not knowing about ranger's neighbor posts is some kind of excuse, sure, but there are other scum in this game and your votes haven't help find them

but hmmm actually the naerys vote

could

turn out to be prescient good luck out there

[Psyche]

just to reiterate, im not really convinced that this iso is scum. it would just be kinda convenient if i could be. make the game easier to understand and all. i promise i won't vote you until i have good positive reasons

[Psyche]

thats not fair
you didnt even explain why you think mc would be a good idea

[Psyche]

This game is just riveting.

Riveting

, I tell you.

So, people are too scared/indifferent to pressure the Wonder Twins. Psyche is the ever-present passive contrarian too milquetoast to take a hard stance on anything including what they eat for breakfast. We've got SEVEN lurk-ass MTFRs doing almost nothing this game. No one wants to mass-claim to get the trap set for Scum late-game. We've got Neighbors too scared to share what's being said in the Neighborhood like they're bitch-ass is about to get shanked. People are lurking and being passive and playing way too damn safe. Titus is like a non-entity this game and I don't think I like that.

I think I'm just going to VOTE: psyche just to see what happens.

lol lowkey temper tantrum

[Psyche]

VOTE: kjq

also, im kinda surprised gypyx still scumreads me!

all of the votes for me are quite mysterious. penguinpower must have been quite the rascal

the guilt of being scum here is mentally crushing psyche

this is silly. my post isn’t expressing guilt, but bemusement

[Psyche]

you'd think he would have found someone other than limbait after 50 pages or whatever he read.

kind of hypocritical to say when this is your choice for the day

[Psyche]

i’m lowkey thinking of not really bothering to try finishing the readthrough when the odds are so good that i won’t survive the day
but i guess that would be kind of immature of me

[Psyche]

i’m lowkey thinking of not really bothering to try finishing the readthrough when the odds are so good that i won’t survive the day
but i guess that would be kind of immature of me

I’ll unvote to give you the time to catch up, would that be enough for you to want to try finishing?

doesn’t seem enough unless there’s a viable counterwagon. if i finish too close to deadline (and that does seem like the best case scenario atm - i am more busy than i probably look rn), there won’t be enough time to vote for someone else.

honestly - if you’re not sure i’m scum — and you’re definitely not — then rather than unvoting to wait for my readslist, you should do something to

clarify your reads

.

for example, remember how i pointed out that you never tried to sort whether that stuff you didn’t like about PP was just a basic feature how he plays, no matter what his alliance? you could do some legwork to sort that out instead of just waiting around.

[Psyche]

like seriously kay. still find it very frustrating that you know your read could be wrong, know exactly how your read could be wrong, all that but aren’t taking straightforward steps to sus the matter out. you have so many options here!

[Psyche]

i remember ranger's promised thursday where she promised reads and never came back

so like are you seriously insinuating that that’s something primarily scum does? i can show you plenty of examples of town giving up ahead of a mislim if you’re serious about this

[Psyche]

pretty interested in your answer to the question

[Psyche]

stalling

oof that’s even worse. so i’ll send you examples of town players “stalling” then? only if you seriously think stalling is scummy of course

[Psyche]

uh huh. please answer the question

[Psyche]

Have you played with scum!Titus? Giving up a teammate like Ranger d2 doesn't happen. Also why 3 scum lol.

i have played with scum Titus, she is deep lurker as scum

don’t you think is an easily modifiable feature of someone’s play though? besides, titus is objectively pretty lurky as town too.

[Psyche]

looks like you’re admitting that those posts were bullshit rhetoric

[Psyche]

i think willow was a better player than you. is too bad he couldn’t stay

[Psyche]

i still think my reasons for townreading willow aren't so silly

[Psyche]

but i guess a counterwagon means i have a chance
have some mixed feelings about that

[Psyche]

2 days remaining. I feel a deadline scramble coming up.

I'm a Vanilla Townie.

...

Willow why DID you claim already?

The game was stale. It was clear that we were ready to move from Day 1.

Above all I wanted to avoid executing a PR, or forcing a PR to claim. I claimed it myself so that the town know there's a safe option to end the day.

am i wrong to feel convinced by the early claim and reasons given for it?
im still pretty bummed after that recent total loss so im more open to the "no psyche you're wrong and bad" angle than i might usually be.
but i'm still wed to the idea that i should be

convinced

of this instead of just assuming it first go

[Psyche]

specifically, i'm looking for reactions that are hard to fake / scum failing to fail a reaction, willow in my opinions fits into this category as he made a sheep onto the wagon while also showing uneasiness around it, a pretty contradictory mindset, and one telling he's afraid of acting "wrong" (this is based on the shrug emoji for instance)

I'm reading this paragraph over and over. I don't get it. How is what I did "failing to fail" a reaction?

And what do you mean "for instance"? The shrug emoticon is the only thing I besides voting.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

VOTE: Snow

[insert cool and creative entrance here]

This is extremely self-conscious behaviour, both in the feeling like your entrance isn't good enough and you adding a shrug emoji basically means you join the wagon without actually being on board with it, something that's more likely for scum to do

now that you have a full iso, do you still feel like this is picking up on scummy behavior

[Psyche]

like seriously kay. still find it very frustrating that you know your read could be wrong, know exactly how your read could be wrong, all that but aren’t taking straightforward steps to sus the matter out. you have so many options here!

I’m sorry but since Thursday until Sunday I’m working insane hours, I literally can’t do what you want me to do because I’d want to be on my laptop. I just have my phone and won’t have laptop access until I fly home Monday and even then I’ll be wiped because my travel/work weekends are exhausting. Yeah, I know, another excuse in your eyes but some people (I think in this game) have seen my timesheets and can tell you I’m not lying. My job is crazy. Im still staying caught up on the thread though. Why is none of this energy being directed toward those that barely show up at all? I’ll do what I can. I’ll try to make some notes on my phone today and maybe at the airport tomorrow morning and put together a post on the plane unless I pass out, then I’ll try to finish it when I get home.

ok i get that.

Have you played with scum!Titus? Giving up a teammate like Ranger d2 doesn't happen. Also why 3 scum lol.

i have played with scum Titus, she is deep lurker as scum

And you're

not

lurking?

i am and i freely admit that

can you freely explain why you choose to lurk?

[Psyche]

you are mistaken; i did respond to your question

your read on lycan is poorly motivated. flailing is not a scumtell. correspondingly, the observation that lycanfire isn't doing that doesn't really have to do with with whether he's scum or not.

you won't look very good after my flip

[Psyche]

i think trying to get stuff going is generally pro-town. it's the least i can do if i'm not going to make time to finish reading the thread developing reads. casting this as scummy or even unhelpful is frankly very facile.

[Psyche]

yeah i hate that you do that day 1 thing but i understand that as NAI for you
even beyond that though all of your votes have probably always been on town, and also not super well motivated
not knowing about ranger's neighbor posts is some kind of excuse, sure, but there are other scum in this game and your votes haven't help find them

but hmmm actually the naerys vote

could

turn out to be prescient good luck out there

here's the reply to your question that you didn't notice while you were working on your very-well-thought-out pair of reads there

[Psyche]

sorry i shouldn't be snarky in a social game it's uncool and unfun

[Psyche]

i am interested in continuing to play this game but am tight on time for at least another 24 hours. not really eager to vote nullreads either. as compromise i guess i'll commit to sheeping any gypyx/thomith consensus on anyone i'm not confident about until i'm caught up. maybe i'll try to mix reading with other activities

[Psyche]

let's consolidate on scum

[Psyche]

bahhh i give up
i will spend an hour or two finishing my readthrough and getting an initial readslist
will force myself to be done by 4 cst

[Psyche]

ill at least make sure i have a clear position on the record for each of these

[Psyche]

bahhh i give up

Well don’t do that

fine i wont

[Psyche]

i can't bother atm to check if it's a total misrep but even if it weren't, nothing in gera's pbpa identifies scummy behaviors. rationale for scumreading me is still extremely leaky, particularly for someone now doubling down on it.

[Psyche]

kinda weird to me how many players can't appreciate how townlocked gypyx/thom should be rn

at very worst the hypothetical that they are a team should only be taken seriously if we get to lylo or something with neither another scumlim nor one of their deaths

[Psyche]

woah i just learned about [post] tags

[Psyche]

i guess i think you really feel that way

[Psyche]

on mobile so i may be missing a post, but i'm not seeing an answer to the key question here:

why are scum more likely to be off the ranger wagon than bussing under the discussed timeframe?

or do you think this is not the key question?

[Psyche]

It notes they popped in only to defend themselves and are now scrambling to find alternative targets.

imo this is close to consistent w my play atm (i guess i'm asking questions sometimes too) and i'm just busy town with thread email notifications turned on

naeyrs has admitted to lurking because of other interests

so isn't this null since it could be honest from either version of naeyrs?
or do you see signs she's lying?
or do you think it doesn't actually matter?
(if so, why'd you bring it up?)

[Psyche]

[am not at all closed to joining the naeyrs wagon. just think these questions will help assess (and document) your vote basis/confidence]

[Psyche]

finding obsidian's vote looks the lamest. snow's vote looks quite town. lycanfire's is a...matter of opinion but honestly fine. am feeling awfully ambivalent in context.

[Psyche]

i still haven't read the relevant pages. very sorry. from what i can tell, the wagon was well-motivated but there are plenty of distractor slots too. seems easy to overinterpret. kay is right about naeyr's tone feeling consistent w other town games but i don't have something in memory to compare with. checking a naeyrs scum game could probably give a better opinion of how much to weight that.

[Psyche]

[am not at all closed to joining the naeyrs wagon. just think these questions will help assess (and document) your vote basis/confidence]

Then it has no interest in answering your questions. Your posts already read like they are trying to setup onto voting it, and if you're never changing your mind, then it has no interest in wasting its breath with you.

Either you're town and so wrong it will never convince you, so it's efforts are best spent elsewhere.

or you're scum and chainsawing Naerys, which would require some thought processing from it, but is solvable just from that.

In either case, answer your questions provides it with exactly zero value, and given your stance on it already it doesn't feel it owes you even a lick of effort in trying to show it is town. It frankly doesn't care.

this is a pretty oddly hostile response to some pretty solid qs imo

[Psyche]

[am not at all closed to joining the naeyrs wagon. just think these questions will help assess (and document) your vote basis/confidence]

Then it has no interest in answering your questions. Your posts already read like they are trying to setup onto voting it, and if you're never changing your mind, then it has no interest in wasting its breath with you.

Either you're town and so wrong it will never convince you, so it's efforts are best spent elsewhere.

or you're scum and chainsawing Naerys, which would require some thought processing from it, but is solvable just from that.

In either case, answer your questions provides it with exactly zero value, and given your stance on it already it doesn't feel it owes you even a lick of effort in trying to show it is town. It frankly doesn't care.

this is a pretty oddly hostile response to some pretty solid qs imo

It isn't hostile, it's just correct. It sees no benefit to itself in answering the questions of someone who doesn't ever plan to change his mind, nor does it see a reason to pitch itself as town to such a person when they clearly already scumread it.

Why would it waste its energy on that conversation... ever?

well then what's the stance you think i'm resistant to changing? i haven't said i scumread you and i've specifically said i'm open to voting naeyrs

[Psyche]

all im obli saying is im not the last slot you'll need to convince if your preferred wagon is to succeed

[Psyche]

going to be a messy several posts here; am making no commitments until i vote, okay?

gypyx seems kinda confident that naeyrs is town, bodes poorly for our ability to consolidate there quickly
and her rationale for te tr is facially around as good as snow's
more focused on naeyrs's play than on wagon analysis -- which might be more solid ground tbh
i kind of want it to be naeyrs bc honestly i generally dislike how she plays but there's something missing
(also i feel like i should doubt anyone willing to scumread RN at this point)

[Psyche]

folks on speedwagon:gypyx,thomith,titus,geraintm,wisp
mhm

Do you think the speed wagon is scummy?

i think atleast 1 scum is hiding there

(this had a mathematical probability of about 70% of being true and in retrospect has a good chance of being false anyway)

[Psyche]

What's the point of playing scum if you don't try to look consistent? Meta matters to a point, but Naerys has been random, voting anyone besides scum. She gave into the RVS tell*. I don't like how she's so adamant about bussing. Ranger was salvageable if scum had charisma. Ranger didn't have back up, made a desperate claim and fucked off.

*my theory being whoever brings us out of RVS is likely scum. Sooner is more likely than later. Subject to scrutiny, but her page 2 comment about the speedwagon did not read as pure and it

did

start a fight.

oh if you're here, could you explain why are you townreading obsidian?

[Psyche]

i see the post where you defended obsidian but this seems more like a defense against criticisms rather than a positive read that identifies parts of their play that are more likely to come from town than scum

[Psyche]

i dont see dave being scum so i am not voting there

Who do you see being scum?

You kind of answered this with your vote tbh.
Anyone else?

Alog with Nurse i am suspicious of Titus,Wisp, Penguin

i read this a long time ago and honestly my reaction was "if naeyrs were scum, wouldn't she slip

one

of her buds in this list?"
i guess titus is still up in the air for me

[Psyche]

I am looking forward to ur reactions when i flip town

could you elaborate on why? id expect they'd be pretty boring

[Psyche]

am kinda sold on gera town i guess. a little sold. i guess im saying if gera is scum i will be surprised when i find out.

[Psyche]

I am defeatist cuz ppl like usual arent listening to me and are discrediting my opinions
No point of me trying really, but the self satisfaction after my flip will be real

how would you find a sense of self-satisfaction from flipping town if as you admit here you didn't even try

[Psyche]

like if i were mislimmed today, id be like "aw man i so dumb to replace into a game i didn't have the time to quickly catch up in" and wouldn't really blame anyone as much as i would myself. i'd have at least that amount of self-awareness

[Psyche]

have like half an hour left to finish skimming the thread...
unfortunately feels like i won't have correct reads today
need to find a good heuristic in light of that very quickly

[Psyche]

find myself agreeing that ranger felt "inevitable" quite a few pages before the actual lim. leans me to thinking the slot would be bussed

[Psyche]

{Titus, Oblivion, Snow2697}
{Hu Tao}
{PenguinPower}
{KayJayQueue}
{geraintm}
{Gypyx, Random Nurse}
{Thomith}
{Little Wil o' Wisp}
{Naerys}

Hmmm

Hmmm indeed.

VOTE: Naerys

a bit superficial
guess for me a lot hinges on how ranger followed-up on this

[Psyche]

Why are you suspecting Naerys/Willow?

Naerys is coasting by, when I know Naerys is capable of far more than this.

I very strongly suspect she’s scum content with the gamestate.

There’s a wagon on town with literally zero counterwagon, nor any effort to mount a serious attempt at one.

Everyone not voting me is vanity voting because nobody is seriously pursuing a different elimination.

Especially in the event Gypyx is town, that would mean town is pushing town. A town-Naerys should be dissatisfied with this, and be strongly pursuing alternatives.

A scum-Naerys would be sipping a drink and laying back, not wanting to interrupt town making a mistake.

i guess key question is how much does this look like scum trying to distance from scum vs ranger hoping to come out ahead in this 1v1

pedit: oh a claim? maybe i should be focusing on the iso instead of scrolling through the regular thread

[Psyche]

ranger iso missing real attempt to push naeyrs. could conceivably be consumed by effort required to defend self, but either suggests limited appetite for that 1v1. but honestly easily reducible to a misplay. better play would focus more effort on appearing like she's trying to sort and get scum limmed.

[Psyche]

ok that's a little later than i thought you were implying. interesting!

[Psyche]

the trouble is that naeyrs just does stuff like that. and like the stuff in this current page. would be really interesting to know what her idea of a capable town would look like

[Psyche]

i think i wouldve struggled to keep a vote on ranger due to my susceptibility to tone/vigor in her posts

[Psyche]

i feel like if rangers claim is true then Hu should just fly through the window

I feel uncomfortable voting you this game if I'm being honest. I just hope you're town 😭

i wish you were still here hutao

[Psyche]

ok i think i have to abandon idea that ranger lim was inevitable even after the claim. hutao wouldn't have moved if it were

[Psyche]

page 53 seems to be the point of no return for ranger
oblivion a key force, then lycan, arguably me too

yeah i can't vote this slot in this context
unless i see something in successive pages...

[Psyche]

2.15

Votecount 2.15

Ranger (3): Random Nurse, Titus, Oblivion
Hu Tao (3): Ranger, Naerys, PenguinPower
Snow2697 (2): Thomith, Gypyx
PenguinPower (2): KayJayQueue, Hu Tao
Thomith (1): Snow2697

Not Voting (2): geraintm, Lycanfire

With 13 players alive, it takes 7 votes to secure an execution.

The day deadline is in (expired on 2024-04-07 10:29:00).

Mod Notes: The combined mod ISO is here.

Ranger's claim is so many levels of BS.

Does no one except it remember when Ranger bragged about how surprised it woupd be about her claim and then claimed the least surprising most obvious bait claim in the world that didn't match that tone at all?

What is going to happen is that Ranger will live today if you let her, live tomorrow on promise of shooting someone but you will never get that shot. Either they will claim to be roleblocked or shoot a townie and then if you go "okay time to sort ranger" it is MELO and you won't have space to do it.

Now is the time to murder this suspicious player with a suspicious claim. Town does not need a N3 Vig or a N4 Jailkeeper, and more likely it is a scum fake claim.

We should not be running up other players to claim to feed the scum more info on our roles.

Murder Ranger with it, they will flip scum.

would have to be some pretty vigorous bussing! i don't believe it at this point

[Psyche]

It is begging players to see reason.

i dont feel like leaving out this post either

[Psyche]

sorry hurrying
is too bad that im running over time but this obsidian read has me a bit excited

[Psyche]

is correct to ask where i am right now...

can't see these being scum:
Psyche
Random Nurse
Gypyx
Oblivion
Thomith
Lycanfire

leaves:
Naerys
Snow2697
geraintm
KayJayQueue
Titus

need to remind myself why i feel positive about gera; some recent posts ive seen are less confident.
1316 strikes me as somewhat off.
kjq is realistically not an option today but i can't help but insist people stay open to her being scum

hurrying hurrying

[Psyche]

we've already had this convo. 3 is a good guess, 4 is possible

[Psyche]

titus seems plausible. real risk of quicklimming without a claim if we switch gears too fast though, particularly given the slot's activity levels

[Psyche]

i'll be more and more open to those slots the longer the game goes on, sure. especially if they don't lead any further scumlims. but, like, expect me to hold a candle for them for a while

[Psyche]

i need to get to the final hammer to decide on plausibility of bussing...

[Psyche]

Yes lets vote claimed pr no matter that this slot will sort itself in a night or two
Awesome logic,my faith in this town goes under the zero

hard to decide on my take on consistency between this and current posting

[Psyche]

But for sure -- I'm not going to vote oblivion today under any circumstances I think. I don't know what people who have actually been around during the ranger wagon are thinking tbh.

[Psyche]

ok. i think the only ranger vote i find remotely suspicious is titus's. i am even open to the possibility that every single ranger vote was from town.

[Psyche]

feel able to review these latest posts in a new light...then i'll decide if i think we should start something fresh or not

[Psyche]

is anyone able to walk me through the logic of why no lim is so bad?
am not sure how resistant i should be to the idea of a late counterwagon at this point

[Psyche]

Psyche just casually strutting past #2376 like I'm not watching.

i dont know what you want me to do lol. i could apologize?

[Psyche]

is anyone able to walk me through the logic of why no lim is so bad?
am not sure how resistant i should be to the idea of a late counterwagon at this point

Day 4 could easily be day 3: pt2

It's a bad idea because there's nothing mechanically guaranteeing a pay off. We should have all the information we need to get a scum lim here.

sure. but i guess i want a good idea of whether no lim is strictly worse than a mislim here. if i'm sufficiently confident that a slot is town (and that i can prevent the slot from being seriously wagoned later), am i well-motivated to refuse to push the wagon over threshold?

[Psyche]

ok.
anyway i think naeyrs is probably a better choice than no lim unless i can find something as compelling as that obsidian post.
but i must confess i'm still ambivalent about the option.
still, i'm inclined to bet on oblivion having the best understanding of the gamestate atm (you seem close too tbh but)

for example,

There was a point at which Ranger was going to live yesterday, after the claim. For it, only Thomith or Gypyx can be bussing, because the others came along to nail in the coffin Ranger.

this seems correct and maybe a better take on the ranger wagon than i perceived from you a recent post

[Psyche]

even gypyx has acknowleged that her obsidian vote was not thought out
is odd though that thom followed

[Psyche]

idk. their roles sort of imply that their power is wasted if one or the other flips.
they aren't regular masons where the flip of one implies the existence of the other.
breadcrumb has best odds of being picked up if it's in an early post.

[Psyche]

gypyx does have an odd post where she scumreads snow for noticing that she and thomith are inordinately trusting one another
and thomith's perspective on D2 seems off to me, with this oblivion vote being the most salient consequence of that
RN's not

totally

off-base for being paranoid

[Psyche]

:roll:
If u think scum would blatantly refuse to vote their partner u are wrong
Scum!me would yeet ranger without hesitation

ugh. am honestly inclined to believe this

I still stand by my refusal to vote ranger anyway. We were risking yeeting potential PR, so i would look at those, who were super confident in that lim first

and this too (though it's a bit galling)

[Psyche]

Situational doesn't match. Lycan was clearly town from replacement and Peguin was disconnected enough to rejoin and simply believe the claim if he wanted. Town and Town. Ranger was very clearly trying to live.

I agree withbthe last statement.

I believe at least one person hard pushing Ranger was probably bussing, because I believe that slot was kind of doomed already.

i can't agree here but it's important context for interpreting where thomith is right now

[Psyche]

To elaborate a bit more

this is a bit of preflipping but in a scum!snow world naerys always busses

especially given HOW she went about refusing to lim the claim, scum trying to let a partner go rarely does the whole "i have no faith in this town" schtick

the overall self righteousness is town indicative

sussing me is a plan that's gonna be tough to make work as scum and she probably wouldn't have tried it straight up

the self vote

i have seen it in the stars

etc..

this take seems like a correct interpretation of naeyrs tonally tbh. wonder if this is oblivion's first naeyrs game or not. feel more confident that it's lycanfires -- am i right?

[Psyche]

oh ok
i think you and i are close to on the same page about everything this game
am just now noticing that you realized sheeping oblivion might be a good approach to D3 dozens of pages ago

[Psyche]

i think naeyrs couldd be scum, but id be more inclined to bet on it being a combo of titus/gera/kay -- even though that's a pretty boring combo. if i could just pick someone to die today it might be gera. but i'm not still not sure. the weird thing about this game for me is that snow/gera are both playing in a way that's unrecognizeable to me given my previous experience with these slots, where they mostly lurked and/or posted useless gummy stuff. gera was scum in the previous game while snow was town. i'm still really unsure how to roll with that.

but feel like most responsible thing for me to do given how fresh my readthrough is and how close deadline is would be to default to naeyrs and accept that i'll look kind of suspicious tomorrow for being such a wishy-washy entry to the wagon if she flips town.

[Psyche]

actually if i could pick someone to die today it would probably be titus. but honestly i can't sort titus in general. vigged her in a previous game when she was town. play is indistinguishable for me, and not in a way that signals she must be town this game.

[Psyche]

yeah i agree one last bit of effort would be to try to dig into a naeyrs scum game...

[Psyche]

hmm why am i townreading snow? also would like to clarify if that's a good call

[Psyche]

actually yeah too many posts are townpinging me. i can see posts by gera and kay and snow that i find hard to imagine from scum -- though not necessarily that hard. either way, i'm not going to find a confident solve that excludes naeyrs today. would be silly to attempt counterwagon without such confidence. i'll try again tomorrow if I have to.

I do think gypyx's towncase on naeyrs has a lot to it and it sort of fits with why I'm inclined to think naeyrs is town. But it's not much more of a tonal/meta read -- not really rooted in the strength of her play or assessment of its consistency w/ town (or scum) win condition. So I can't value it enough to call for everyone to flip the board.

By comparison, I think oblivion being scum is super implausible at this point based on its ranger positioning -- it does not look like a bus to me.

some gaps id address if i had infinite time...
- why does thomith currently have a vote on oblivion?
- is the towncase for snow really so strong that i shouldn't take the counterwagon seriously?

eghhhh. i think part of me is interested in the idea of snow over naeyrs so i guess i can't ditch the thread yet

[Psyche]

haha i think with that post ive thrown out any potential towncred for voting naeyrs if she flips scum
but oh well

[Psyche]

should we do me? just to be sure? i'll self-vote if you're sure a mislim is really better than a nolim

i guess the question doesn't work if you think naeyrs is scum

[Psyche]

yeah. i got humbled in another game though don't you worry

[Psyche]

actually yeah too many posts are townpinging me. i can see posts by gera and kay and snow that i find hard to imagine from scum -- though not necessarily that hard. either way, i'm not going to find a confident solve that excludes naeyrs today. would be silly to attempt counterwagon without such confidence. i'll try again tomorrow if I have to.

I do think gypyx's towncase on naeyrs has a lot to it and it sort of fits with why I'm inclined to think naeyrs is town. But it's not much more of a tonal/meta read -- not really rooted in the strength of her play or assessment of its consistency w/ town (or scum) win condition. So I can't value it enough to call for everyone to flip the board.

By comparison, I think oblivion being scum is super implausible at this point based on its ranger positioning -- it does not look like a bus to me.

some gaps id address if i had infinite time...
- why does thomith currently have a vote on oblivion?
- is the towncase for snow really so strong that i shouldn't take the counterwagon seriously?

eghhhh. i think part of me is interested in the idea of snow over naeyrs so i guess i can't ditch the thread yet

I can't shake off a snow townread either. It feels a bit stronger based on the position-based reasoning about dave that me/thomith discussed. I'm drowning in townreads. There's something in this thread townpinging me that shouldn't and I don't know what it is.

I give up for today.

VOTE: naeyrs

[Psyche]

in retrospect i can totally see why people wanted to dip their tones in a psyche wagon when i replaced in
what is going on. what a mysterious game. you know until a few days ago i thought it was scummy to make posts like this one. and now here i am.

[Psyche]

id resist but id understand
probably not actually willing to self-vote to avoid no lim though
i don't care about ev math. i'm worth the sacrifice

[Psyche]

ok thomith why oblivion? even gypyx seems wishy washy about it. do you think i'm mistaken to say that oblivion is a major reason ranger flipped in the first place?

[Psyche]

ok final readslist for the day probably. i think snow and gera reads are reasonably shaky. should not overweight a single interaction with dave in the earlygame i think, nor fact that gera is active this game. titus remains obscure. i really like my case on kay but i think her reaction to the push was town.

Random Nurse
Gypyx
Oblivion
Psyche
Thomith
Lycanfire

KayJayQueue

Naerys

Snow2697
geraintm
Titus

I am unwilling to vote anyone in the top group over accepting no lim. Mid groups are preferred over no lim. Bottom group would be a bittersweet pleasure. Sorry for not landing on more confident scumreads today. I will keep this thread open but am very busy and need to focus on other tasks that happen to also be on my computer.

[Psyche]

will add that we'd get very little info from a titus townflip and need to weigh that. if naeyrs and titus reads are both around the same strength for you, you should prefer a naeyrs hammer.

[Psyche]

you are at the top of the playerlist mod maintains in post 0

only the groupings were thought out, not within group ranking

[Psyche]

if lycanfire is scum then i am useless and will drag town down for the rest of the game that i am alive. a quaint thought to recall in the postgame

[Psyche]

same for RN i guess. these are my most treasured reads

[Psyche]

actually there's more in titus's iso to sort her than i gave credit for. she's arguably also more vigorous this game than in our previous game (where she was town). i have to confess it leans town for me too! ugh

i have got to stop looking at this thread

[Psyche]

VOTE: Ranger

We can do Ranger now. Ranger's response to me voting Snow was horrible. Ranger sees Gypyx and Thomlith won't be divided so she's moving them up her reads list.

Ranger, the difference between you and Willow is my townreads are active and people are posting now. If you think my theory on Wisp also applies to you, who are the scum that don't give a damn.

Frankly, it's easy to post a series of names gradually moving people where you want them to be over time with no reasoning.

When you do post reasons, they are clearly bad.

Ranger Snow +1 inactive calling it

2.12

Votecount 2.12

Ranger (E-2): Hu Tao, Random Nurse, Gypyx, Titus, Oblivion
Naerys (2): PenguinPower, Naerys
Hu Tao (2): Lycanfire, Ranger
Thomith (1): Snow2697
Snow2697 (1): Thomith

Not Voting (2): geraintm, KayJayQueue

With 13 players alive, it takes 7 votes to secure an execution.

The day deadline is in (expired on 2024-04-06 10:29:00).

Mod Notes: The combined mod ISO is here.

bussing? i guess we can't say it's totally out of the question

[Psyche]

so,
particularly given how many isos look town,
investigative maybe probably *should* spend a shot on gypyx/thomith.
why? one action holds potential to clear

two

slots instead of

one

that basic math should be really compelling

i can anticipate some counterarguments

maybe you think those slots are already cleared
i'd argue that gypyx/thomith positioning on key wagons D1, D2, and today have a good chance of looking bad in retrospect.
some key posts are

weird

and through off weak though easily discardable alarm bells
even the ranger hammer can be interpreted as an attempt to take the greatest advantage of
even if you personally TR these slots, you might be dead by lategame.
someone like RN? a better chance of not being dead
if game goes late and these slots are alive, the remote possibility of those two being scum will keep town paranoid and unable to reach a sound consensus
is it lowkey unlikely that 3 scum would be in a neighborhood? idk maybe. gypyx has emphasized that it should still be considered plausible, possible.

maybe you think it's a better idea to investigate your own personal nullread or scumread
i want to convince you that your role should focus on reducing the (worst) town's uncertainty instead of testing your pre-conceptions
if you really do have a great scumread, i think you should be able to case the slot and push that through.
plenty of people in this town pay attention to cases and are able to assess if there's anything to them.
reducing town's uncertainty about other slots will indirectly facilitate your other pushes anyway!
and the move that would reduce town's uncertainty the most is potentially the one that clears

two

slots instead of just

one

maybe you think their survival through lategame would be enough signal to tell if they should be townread
i think this reasoning depends on WIFOM that scum have flexibility to play around.
scum might be aware of this reasoning and use that as enough reason not to shoot one of gypyx/thomith.
in fact, they may prefer to, indeed, spend their night kills search for you or other PRs.
if you are an investigative, scum probably has enough power to guess that you might exist and choose a strategy focused on that.
so consider that

there's an argument that 1) the strength of gypyx/thomith's townplay plus 2) the unlikelihood of them being in a neighborhood with ranger as their scum plus 3) their pure commitment from the start of the game to this claim should be enough to decide that the two are town. but i think point 1 is weak enough atm and the others are weak enough on their own that it would still be worthwhile for an investigative to just go ahead and confirm something we can already guess.

whatever, maybe. i guess im unsure of this argument in retrospect.

[Psyche]

"gl town" seems to sidetrack from the "yall suck" ethos

[Psyche]

is that vote a hammer?

[Psyche]

changing tune about what

[Psyche]

most recent post seems consistent with where he's been since the 1v1 with gypyx