Mini 2332: A Mid-scummer Nights Dream II | GG

[Cabd]

pagetop

It's postgame, mod tyranny says fuck your pagetop.

[Sunflower]

pagetop

It's postgame, mod tyranny says fuck your pagetop.

NOOOOOOO

[Sunflower]

PITCHFORK DREAM PITCHFORK DREAM

[Doctor Drew]

pagetop

It's postgame, mod tyranny says fuck your pagetop.

You are my new favorite mod

[fferyllt]

PITCHFORK DREAM PITCHFORK DREAM

The Pitchfork Dream has been chosen!

MorphTheCat are pure evil. We, the players, wish to inflict harm upon them. We are all out in the village with our pitchforks ready!

It's a chance for revenge!

---

The mods will post everything for the next day from their mains. The dreamer may select a theme for the days vote counts. (Pg rated please). Additionally, players may vote the mod. The mod requires 14 votes to eliminate. But this is a very effective form of protest!

[Gimli]

I've got time to do a more general breakdown+individualized notes, but they'll be broken up.

Before I get into individualized commentary, it might help to collect my global mechanical commentary in one post. We made many fumbles here and they are all simple fixes. The explanations are abbreviated, so don't expect completeness.

1. Even if she was universally scumread, Kyoko should have never been voted. This is because she had a third invention to give out. Town gets more power and information at a very low cost by waiting to vote her until Day 4.

2. Ravens should have been voted out Day 4 almost instantly. This was findable in many different ways.

(a) Ravens claimed to intentionally pass over a watcher shot for an unknown. This bet makes little sense as town given the prior dream power reveals.
(b) Ravens claimed the existence of a fourth scum dream selection mechanic (Flipped scum can dream, Vi mechanic, public hijack, claimed private hijack). This is very implausible: town will get a chance to play the game. I was already skeptical of three, but with three confirmed a fourth would be absolutely terrible and unfathomable game design.
(c) Ravens' claimed private hijack differed from the public hijack. This would be a bizarre duplicative powersplit to give to the scumteam, and no town player claimed responsibility for it.
(d) The late claim to the reporter shot from Enchant.

Some of these are sufficient alone, others merely strongly indicative, but all in conjunction are overwhelming. Sifting through the mechanics took a bit of time and effort, but at the end of the day none of the above points were very hidden or especially difficult to spot. Catgirl was my top scumread before the cc, but, still unspoiled, I became very sure the dayplay should be thrown in the trash as each point clicked.

3. Reading your role PM and voting for dreams remains undefeated in 2024, RIP. This is also (part of) why other players need to ask for full role details instead of leaving them a black box if the person looks town.

First 5 comments:

Spoiler: ActionDan

Obviously you are experienced, well-rounded, and a bit old-school in a way that I find both comforting and paradoxically refreshing. I don't have many substantive comments: I think you played the game correctly up until the Kyoko vote. I empathize with putting some trust in the person who gave you a watcher shot, compromising, and not dying on every hill. But compromising is negotiation, not capitulation. Catgirl possessed no special mechanical indicator of Kyoko's alignment, and I think there were clear signs it wasn't a read made with rigor and a level head.

Even putting aside all of the Alisae dynamic, the second Kyoko claimed to still have an invention to hand out, the choice to leash it is clear. I think you were in an ideal position to intervene and lay out the mechanically optimal play.

Spoiler: Enchant

When you replaced in, I joked that we needed divine intervention. I wasn't actually worried about anything and thought you a fine replacement, I just figured you'd get a kick out of it.

What I didn't expect was for you to be the most mechanically competent and well-rounded town player in the game, alive or dead. It was very impressive, and I thought about how rapidly you'd grown since Iceland. Then I realized it wasn't fast at all: that game was already three years ago. Compared to my first five years of playing, the last nine really flied.

It was a cool experience to watch you grow into a well-rounded and very capable player, especially one that still has light-hearted fun and enjoys the game. Thank you.

Spoiler: Gimli

You were pleasant while you were around and gave the game enthusiasm and passion that made it fun, like I was missing out when I was stuck elsewhere. I think the blowup with Black was unfortunate, in that I agreed with you, but forum mafia investment levels are always going to range greatly.

Unfortunately I can't say more about your gameplay: most of it was on the periphery of my focus. Obviously you are too quick and confident in your reads, but it's difficult to get more granular about where without rereading from scratch. Any one townread is likely to be right, but as the bloc grows the chance of error skyrockets and there's probably a benefit to raising the bar of entry.

As a last matter, I concurred with morph and the scum PT posts that quoting your PT was out of bounds. I was already leaning that you were town, but it solidified it. The issue is that if you were drafting those posts in the PT as scum, morph would have intervened and shut it down. It was only because they were genuine note thoughts, not explicitly fake drafts, that morph was never worried about it before it happened. (confirmed by their lock)

Spoiler: Black

I've been wanting to play with you for awhile after loosely spectating some of the Newbie games. I think this was a bad start for a few reasons, several of them my fault.

First, I didn't spend enough time reading you on Day 1. This procrastination compounded on Day 2 and I was convinced I'd need to meta you to get anything conclusive. In hindsight I should have engaged earlier, and we probably could have meaningfully connected if I started early.
Second, while I didn't like Gimli's phrasing, I did take his side on the blowup. Forums games have a range of investment, and it's natural to be upset when someone isn't putting in as much effort as another. Almost all of us are busy and sacrificing things for the game. I wasn't thrilled with Gimli's response, but I don't think either of you really navigated that correctly, and it made for an unpleasant phase.
Third, I was overly harsh in the dead PT around the last few days. Part of being town is being sure of yourself and unsure of others, but I felt you overcombative and unempathetic, needing to at least acknowledge why other players felt certain ways without your role PM in hand. I liked your final day posting significantly more and appreciated the effort, so I'm sorry for being so harsh in the spec PT.

I know you said you were averse and bad at it, but you should spend more time on the mechanics. I went over why the Ravens vote shouldn't have happened from a few different angles, and it is very frustrating to get no dream votes. Depending on the powers that might have instantly lost the game, which would in turn wast dozens of hours of town effort because of simple negligence.

Spoiler: Doctor Drew

I really didn't engage with you much, so I don't have too much to say, but you're just a pleasant player to be around. You never seem to take scumreads or disagreements too harshly or personally, and it makes it easy to stay civil. Thanks for always trying to spice things up and keep it fun.

Hi prism, thank you for the kind words and for the much appreciated feedback. you were great to play with and I look forward to joining other games with you!

[Gimli]

thanks morph for modding! <3

congrats scum! you definitely earned this win

[Gimli]

@black: I apologise for the harsh comments and upsetting you. I was also playing under very upsetting circumstances and trying to make the best of it, so I didn't take your original response @ me lightly.

I was also probably much harsher than I could've been in dead thread, because the game was a constant frustrating thought I kept having. that's also @ drew and @ alisae, sorry folks.

as I told you privately, I like you and I like playing with you. from where I stand we're fine, and I hope you can forgive my upsetting personality while playing mafia games. I promise its never ever personal.

here is a heartie <3

[Black]

I don't think you crossed a line Gimli. I did. I appreciate you for the apology but I think you deserve one way more than me. I'm sorry and I promise I won't lash out at you like that again <3

[Kyoko Kirigiri]

I also want to apologize if I was rude in any case to anyone or harsh to deal with. Thanks for the game

Also want to thank the mods again for the design. Looked really design-heavy and I'm all for it. Absolutely loved the effort that was put in the flavors and mechanical aspects of the game.

[Klick]

I also want to apologise. Not for anything in particular, but all the awesome people are doing it and I want in on the action

[Aureal]

Aww, I was going to cackle evilly about still having a secret PT to cackle evilly in unlike the townies, but apparently it's also locked and not entirely secret.

VOTE: morph for PT double standards

[fferyllt]

Aww, I was going to cackle evilly about still having a secret PT to cackle evilly in unlike the townies, but apparently it's also locked and not entirely secret.

VOTE: morph for PT double standards

Your Hereafter thread was part of the game design, not a personal notes PT. I double checked all the threads before making them public (or not), but If I accidentally made anything public I shouldn't have, please let me know (I'll even self-vote!)

[Aureal]

Yeah, I fully expected it to be made public and have been wondering when it was going to happen since it wasn't included with the others. I didn't think it was

that

spicy! Turns out it was actually sneakily accessible though.

[Aureal]

So, we're not gonna get to see the full setup, are we?

[morph the cat]

I've drafted a post with all the actions that happened in each phase. Cabd needs to review it. Even after two sets of eyeballs we may have missed something. But, I'm sure they'll come to light in discussion.

We're going to save the unused dreams for a possible third game design. We'd need to do a lot of tweaking, but they'll be useful to get started with. Other than unseen dreams, I think everything is or will be made public in our next big post.

[ActionDan]

/prein for that one whenever it comes around

[Cabd]

Yeah we made a few minor errors due to how complex the setup was. Entirely on me for being way too complex a madman. Ffery's innocent. Ish.

[DragonEater70]

/prein for that one whenever it comes around

[ActionDan]

Actually I do have to apologize for something aside from voting Kiri. It's not bringing the real 2013 energy into the game.

heheHEHEHEHUEHAUEHAUHAARGHKKHKFHEUAUAHUA

[ActionDan]

CHESSKID

[Sunflower]

Still sad about beign wrong about the waterfall dream

[Prism]

Still hoping I can get to everyone, but if not, I am hoping to play again over the summer. I should be free starting May 8th, so invite me if you'd like to play and think the game would be a good fit. I favor opens and themes.

[fferyllt]

Cabd hasn't had a chance to go over this, so any missing stuff is entirely my fault.

Actions

Moonrise 1

Bad Dreams Secret Reveal: You know how Vi does what Vi does? Well...

Dream Votes:
Forget 11, I just turned the dial to 12! (8): Gimli, Kyoko Kirigiri, Klick, Hu Tao, Aureal, Ydrasse, Silver Ravens, Prism
This slide never seems to end... (2): Von Payne, Chipotle Catgirl,
You know how Vi does what Vi does? Well... (8): Gimli, DragonEater70, Kyoko Klick, Hu Tao, Aureal, Silver Ravens, Sunflower, Prism
Protest is effective, but why have we super glued ourselves to each other, exactly? (3): Von Payne, Ydrasse, Sunflower
I'm 30 years old, why do I still need a car seat? (5): (DragonEater70, Kyoko Kirigiri, Aureal, Silver Ravens, Prism
These sheeple have.. fur? And horns? Wait these are literally sheep people (8): Gimli, Von Payne, DragonEater70, Kyoko Kirigiri, Klick, Hu Tao, Ydrasse, Sunflower

Bad Dreams Discard: Forget 11, I just turned the dial to 12!

Dream Interpreter Reveal (ActionDan): This slide never seems to end...

Dreamer's Dream reveal (Catgirl Chipotle): You know how Vi does what Vi does? Well...

Dreamer's Dream choice (Catgirl Chipotle): These sheeple have.. fur? And horns? Wait these are literally sheep people

Day 1

Von Payne Game Thread Neighborize Choice: Sunflower
Hu Tao is eliminated

Twilight 1

None

Night 1

Game Thread Neighborhood is formed. Von Payne and Sunflower have night chat
DragonEater70 hides behind Aureal. Succeeds and dies.
Kyoko Kirigiri gives Gimli/Enchant Ectoplasmic camera
Bad Dreams' Secret Reveal: I'm Superman!
Sunflower targets Gimli with "In your dreams". Sunflower learns that Gimli is not the current dreamer
Aureal targets Prism with "There is no refuge...". Aureal Learns that Prism is a Deep Sleeper

Moonrise 2

Dream Votes:
My house started flooding while I was watching TV (1): Aureal
Wait so it works on even the parts it doesn't cover? (6): Action Dan, Gimli/Enchant, Von Payne, Kyoko Kirigiri, Sunflower, Prism
I'm superman! (7): Action Dan, Gimli/Enchant, Von Payne, Kyoko Kirigiri, Ydrasse, Silver Ravens, Prism
I sat down to the DND table and cast my favorite spell. (7): ActionDan, Enchant/Gimli, Von Payne, Ydrasse, Silver Ravens, Sunflower, Prism
Doesn't EVERYBODY hate Trigonometry? (1): Aureal
MorphTheCat are pure evil. We, the players, wish to inflict harm upon them. We are all out in the village with our pitchforks ready! (5): Kyoko Kirigiri, Aureal, Ydrasse, Silver Ravens, Sunflower

Bad Dreams Discard: Wait so it works on even the parts it doesn't cover?

Dream Interpreter Reveal (ActionDan): I sat down to the DND table and cast my favorite spell.

Dreamer's Dream reveal (Catgirl Chipotle): I'm Superman!

Dreamer's Dream choice (Catgirl Chipotle): I'm Superman! Chooses Silver Ravens to receive it.

Day 2

Von Payne Game Thread Neighborize Choice: Catgirl Chipotle
Aureal is eliminated

Twilight 2

None

Night 2

Game Thread Neighborhood is activated. Von Payne, Sunflower and Catgirl Chipotle have night chat
Enchant uses the ectoplasmic camera to copy Night 2's Dream (I'm Superman)
Kyoko Kirigiri sends Mysterious Sportscar to Prism. This invention is a commute.
Bad Dreams' Secret Reveal: My house started flooding while I was watching TV
Sunflower targets ActionDan with "In your dreams". Sunflower learns that Action Dan is not the Dreamer
Silver Ravens kills Prism. Succeeds

Moonrise 3

Dream votes:

A bold knight in shining armor came to fight me. Rescue me. Something like that (2): Von Payne, Ydrasse
Up the stairs of the giant tower I went. (3): ActionDan, Kyoko Kirigiri, Sunflower
That disco ball has a hat? And uh, a crack pipe? (4): Actiondan, Kyoko Kirigiri, Ydrasse, Sunflower
I met MrBeast on an electric train to the redwoods, and when we got there we lay down in front of a bulldozer to save a tree (1): Von Payne
My house started flooding while I was watching TV (0)
That is a really, really, REALLY big waterfall. I bet I could meditate under it! (5): Action Dan, Von Payne, Kyoko Kirigiri, Ydrasse, Sunflower

Bad Dreams Discard: That disco ball has a hat? And uh, a crack pipe?

Dream Interpreter Reveal (ActionDan): Up the stairs of the giant tower I went.

Dreamer's Dream reveal (Catgirl Chipotle): Up the stairs of the giant tower I went.

Dreamer's Dream choice (Catgirl Chipotle): Up the stairs of the giant tower I went.

Enchant's copied dream is announced: I'm Superman! Both dreams will be in effect on Night 3 and Enchant gets to choose a recipient of the Superman Dream. Chooses Silver Ravens.

Day 3

Von Payne Game Thread Neighborize Choice: Enchant
Kyoko Kirigiri is eliminated

Twilight 3

None

Night 3

Game Thread Neighborhood is activated. Von Payne, Sunflower and Catgirl Chipotle have night chat
Bad Dreams' Secret Reveal: A bold knight in shining armor came to fight me. Rescue me. Something like that
Sunflower targets Catgirls Chipotle with "In your dreams". Sunflower learns that Catgirl Chipotle is the Dreamer. They have hijacked Moonrise 4's Dream selection
Silver Ravens kills ActionDan. Succeeds

Moonrise 4

Dream votes:

A bold knight in shining armor came to fight me. Rescue me. Something like that (4): Von Payne, Ydrasse, Silver Ravens, Sunflower
The sheer elation of being able to double-jump (4): Von Payne, Ydrasse, Silver Ravens, Sunflower
My house started flooding while I was watching TV (1): Ydrasse
I met MrBeast on an electric train to the redwoods, and when we got there we lay down in front of a bulldozer to save a tree (2): Von Payne, Sunflower
Doesn't EVERYBODY hate Trigonometry? (0)
I won the lottery! But so did everyone else... Except those rich jerks. (1): Silver Ravens

Sunflower Dream Hijack takes place: You know how Vi does what Vi does? Well...

Vi Dream effect: Choose a different dream for the night: Forget 11, I just turned the dial to 12! This dream gives the recipient an activated double vote.

Sunflower chooses Silver Ravens to be the next dreamer (effective Moonrise 5) and gives Silver Ravens the activated double vote which can only be used on Day 4.

Day 4

Von Payne Game Thread Neighborize Choice: No choice made, so their choice is randed to Ydrasse.
Silver Ravens activates their double vote when Chipotle Catgirls is at E-1.
Chipotle Catgirls are eliminated.

Twilight 4

None

Night 4

Game Thread Neighborhood is activated. Von Payne, Sunflower, Enchant, and Ydrasse have night chat. Silver Ravens is also erroneously added to the night chat.

Bad Dreams' Secret Reveal: That is a really, really, REALLY big waterfall. I bet I could meditate under it!

Silver Ravens uses "I'm Superman" reporter ability to have the mods post the following in the game thread: "Who the hell is not voting for fast night? Your blatant ignorance of the current game state is causing the game to slowly devolve into some low quality pokemon tier list discussion (Bulbasaur is not even Tier A SMH)"

Silver Ravens kills Ydrasse. Ydrasse's "Why can't I keep my eyes open?" ability is activated and she falls deeply asleep in her tower (modified commute, activates when targeted for any action by the Bad Dreams. Takes effect that night and she doesn't return to the game thread until Night 5. She is able to privately vote for the dreams and elimination while in her tower.

Moonrise 5

I caught the hail Mary pass, but even that might not be enough... (2): Silver Ravens, Sunflower
I'm 30 years old, why do I still need a car seat? (2): Enchant, Gimli
Doesn't EVERYBODY hate Trigonometry? (2): Silver Ravens, Sunflower
My house started flooding while I was watching TV (0)
I gardened so well that the gods literally turned my thumb bright green! (2): Enchant, Gimli
That is a really, really, REALLY big waterfall. I bet I could meditate under it! (2): Enchant, Gimli

The votes are tied, so the hidden non-random tie-breaker comes into effect. Silver Ravens' and Sunflower's votes each count as 2. So Hail Mary and Trigonometry have 4 votes total

Bad Dreams Discard: None

Dreamer's Dream reveal (Silver Ravens): I caught the hail Mary pass, but even that might not be enough...

Dreamer's Dream choice (Catgirl Chipotle): Doesn't EVERYBODY hate Trigonometry?: Modulo 6 parity cop. Silver Ravens gives the parity cop to Sunflower

Day 5

Von Payne Game Thread Neighborize Choice: No more living players to choose from
Silver Ravens are eliminated
The Dreamer ability goes to Enchant, the last potential Dreamer in the game.

Night 5

Game Thread Neighborhood is activated. Von Payne, Sunflower, Enchant, and Ydrasse have night chat.

Bad Dreams' Secret Reveal: I won the lottery! But so did everyone else... Except those rich jerks.

Sunflower kills Enchant. Succeeds.

With no potential Dreamer alive, there is no Moonrise 5

Day 6

Von Payne Game Thread Neighborize Choice: No more living players to choose from
Von Payne are eliminated.

The

Bad Dreams

win.

[fferyllt]

I want to thank all of you for playing! We both enjoyed running this game for you!

The first moonrise/day/night were very rough around the edges (and in the middle, too). We rushed the design a little and there was one key disconnect in my understanding of what was changing from the first Mid-scummer Night's Dream: The order of events in the phases. I think most of the introduced problems were to the Bad Dream's detriment, but it impacted both teams.

We took a lot of the first game's postgame feedback under advisement and think it resulted in a more balanced game.

Some of the differences (and some related questions that came to me as I watched you play):

• The dream picking process was confined to its own phase, allowing the day phase to take place more traditionally with most of the focus on reads and elimination votes. Was 24 hours of discussion and voting, and up to 24 hours for the Dreamer and the Dream Interpreter to make their choices enough? Too rushed?
  
• In the first game, Town PRs were focused on manipulating the dreams and the dreams were mostly about passing out one shot abilities by the day's chosen Dreamer. In this game the Town PRs were fairly well split between dream-related and thwarting bad dream night actions, and we made a Dreamer role who would remain the dreamer as long as they were alive and the Bad Dreams didn't identify and hijack them.
  
• We went with a longer night phase because the Bad Dreams had more decisions to make, including picking a dream to reveal privately to them at the start of the Moonrise phase. I'd like feedback on whether that was helpful to the Bad Dreams. I'm pretty sure the Dream Voyagers weren't exactly thrilled with 72 hour nights.

If you have any feedback you'd like us to take into account for possible future Mid-scummer Night's Dreams please share!