Micro Normal 1104 - Postgame

[Luka]

Results oriented thinking is bad in that sense. You can have all of the correct reads in the world but with no thread pull, no leverage; no convincing done it amounts to nothing. Good town players can quite literally fake cases on other players in order to get people to follow them, specifically thinking of Achromatic here. Which is why going "this is a gut read!" and expecting people to follow genuinly isn't a good premise. Even if you are corect, you can't go "I played so good!"

Reads are important, don't get me wrong. If you consistently are correct every game than chances are people will start to notice that more and more, and pay attention to you more and more. But if you aren't consistently correct, then this is a team game; your main goals should be town telling, generating content, or creating a healthy gamestate, ect. Mafia is only a solo game for the players who can make it a solo game, which; judging from what I've seen, is nobody here.

[Luka]

No you won't

Yes I will ^W^

[Luka]

The main problem I'm having with your pushes is that I think there's a very stark difference between how you think you're behaving and how you're being perceived. The fact you're not elaborating much (if at all) on a push throws the weight of your words and actions into the dirt and from how you're behaving I'm gathering you think it's doing the exact opposite. I glossed over literally everything you've said this game, and only on a second round through when I explicitly wanted to comment on any rogue thought I had on what you've done is when I had proper thoughts about you beyond a few rogue statements you've made that hadn't had anything to do with any of your reads.

The problem with Eiralox is that they seem to have no actual thought process behind their reads, their just going with the seemingly "easiest to push" in thread, or at least the most subpar in thread from what I've seen. I also can't see a scum agenda for doing this; unless they're known for being a really bad wolf player this rings more as a "wolfy town" just off of that basis.

[Luka]

humaneatingmonkey (E-2): Eiralox, Umlaut, Firebringer

@Eiralox @Umlaut @Firebringer
Aside from their push on me, can you elaborate on the vote?
Also, anybody w/ meta able to tell me if they're a good town or not? Or, at least their general thought process as town.

[JacksonVirgo]

Results oriented thinking is bad in that sense. You can have all of the correct reads in the world but with no thread pull, no leverage; no convincing done it amounts to nothing. Good town players can quite literally fake cases on other players in order to get people to follow them, specifically thinking of Achromatic here. Which is why going "this is a gut read!" and expecting people to follow genuinly isn't a good premise. Even if you are corect, you can't go "I played so good!"

Reads are important, don't get me wrong. If you consistently are correct every game than chances are people will start to notice that more and more, and pay attention to you more and more. But if you aren't consistently correct, then this is a team game; your main goals should be town telling, generating content, or creating a healthy gamestate, ect. Mafia is only a solo game for the players who can make it a solo game, which; judging from what I've seen, is nobody here.

Mhm, accuracy is useless if you can't convince people. You can gloat all you want, but you're still bad at the game. Maximise global information babyyy

[Luka]

Hu Tao

I read your case here, it mostly comes down to mindmelds which I don't think are very towny in it's own right without meta. My case on the slot is that they seem self entitled in a way that no matter the alignment produces an unproductive gamestate, and when questioned on their reads, reads which they say come down to a slot being "lock town" they overlay it with the premise if a gut read. I also think that they should be pushed out of their comfort zone if their town and forced to actually do things; they're playing safe to the point where it seems icky (as mentioned in your post).

[Luka]

Spoiler: Possible Pocket Attempts (5)

This is unironically both funny and villagery.

[Luka]

Umlaut is relatively fine looking over their ISO again, but could just be a solid wolf. A few posts stand out as a bit pockety / icky, IE:

I actually kind of like Luka saying my entry was awkward because it was, a bit. (I was really just ego posting and forced a joke in there to make it a "real" RVS post.) Doesn't make them town but I'm giving them a point for noticing.

Oh, I forgot to say I liked 346 a lot and it put Jackson at the top of my town list.

This pushback on a townread is +town, a little

Them liking Jacksons post is reasonable, but not going over what exactly they liked feels like the potential for it just being a good wolf.

I'm town.
FancyPants is town.
Overcat, JV, Hu Tao get provisional town leans.
This leaves {KayJayQueue, Luka, ceejayvinoya, Eiralox}.

I do like them establishing a town core fairly early on, but a few of those (IE: Hu Tao, I'm in DEEP on my tunnel!) just make no sense FMPOV. I also don't think they've really raised that town core, instead just re-enforcing prior reads instead of branching out into new ones. If this is town I want an updated reads list on what you've seen so far. The reason why I put you town in the first place is that you narrowed down POE so quickly.

[JacksonVirgo]

The problem with Eiralox is that they seem to have no actual thought process behind their reads, their just going with the seemingly "easiest to push" in thread, or at least the most subpar in thread from what I've seen. I also can't see a scum agenda for doing this; unless they're known for being a really bad wolf player this rings more as a "wolfy town" just off of that basis.

I don't think it's as black and white in order to slap the TWTBW label on them and go about our day. I think it's a >rand chance of having scum motivation behind their actions, especially if the remaining wolf (assuming 2 here) is better positioned in the Town but I will humour your thoughts on it more I definitely see what they're doing as strange whether it's coming from a wolf or a town so occam's razor would dictate that it's town. I did have this thought a few times but each time I'm not as convinced by it as much as I wanted to be. I want them to post genuine thoughts and analysis before I see myself

ever

removing my vote from them (except for consolidation wagons near day end ofc)

[Luka]

Firebringer / Luka / KayJayQueue
JacksonVirgo / HumanEatingMonkey
Eiralox / Umlaut / GuyInFreezer / Hu Tao

HEM is up here cause I liked CJVs posts, the only thing I don't like is the WOAT push on my slot but I want to know some meta knowledge before changed. I think the top 3 are relatively spewed town at this point, Umlaut I want more from before solidiying. Don't take this as a legacy or anything, just a few thoughts to get ideas from the thread.

[Luka]

I don't think it's as black and white in order to slap the TWTBW label on them and go about our day. I think it's a >rand chance of having scum motivation behind their actions, especially if the remaining wolf (assuming 2 here) is better positioned in the Town but I will humour your thoughts on it more I definitely see what they're doing as strange whether it's coming from a wolf or a town so occam's razor would dictate that it's town. I did have this thought a few times but each time I'm not as convinced by it as much as I wanted to be. I want them to post genuine thoughts and analysis before I see myself ever removing my vote from them (except for consolidation wagons near day end ofc)

This is reasonable, TWTBAW reads normally come dow nto personal preference if they want to follow it. I see it being a -ev town at worst so I don't mind the chop, -ev in that they're going to get MLd if they're town before we read endgame I think. Honestly might be worth it to just claim if they're village to resolve.

[JacksonVirgo]

Hu Tao

I read your case here, it mostly comes down to mindmelds which I don't think are very towny in it's own right without meta. My case on the slot is that they seem self entitled in a way that no matter the alignment produces an unproductive gamestate, and when questioned on their reads, reads which they say come down to a slot being "lock town" they overlay it with the premise if a gut read. I also think that they should be pushed out of their comfort zone if their town and forced to actually do things; they're playing safe to the point where it seems icky (as mentioned in your post).

I do tend to town-read mindmelds more than I should. The whole locking town point is one of my major gripes with players like her. I don't like this type of playstyle as it doesn't mesh well with mine, I can't reciprocate them and the confidence absolutely feels shit when trying to actually talk with them about things

[JacksonVirgo]

Spoiler: Possible Pocket Attempts (5)

This is unironically both funny and villagery.

I didn't mean to have that in the final version, I was keeping track of the posts to later comment on if I felt it was worth it lmao. It is good to have though!

[Luka]

I didn't mean to have that in the final version, I was keeping track of the posts to later comment on if I felt it was worth it lmao. It is good to have though!

Fair!

[JacksonVirgo]

HEM is up here cause I liked CJVs posts, the only thing I don't like is the WOAT push on my slot but I want to know some meta knowledge before changed. I think the top 3 are relatively spewed town at this point, Umlaut I want more from before solidiying. Don't take this as a legacy or anything, just a few thoughts to get ideas from the thread.

You saying the top three is spewed town is a little awkward when you're only referring to a single person (Kay). You can't reasonably say this about yourself, and the last is a mech IC.

[JacksonVirgo]

Unless you mean Kay, HEM and myself. Which I don't believe you were

[Luka]

You saying the top three is spewed town is a little awkward when you're only referring to a single person (Kay). You can't reasonably say this about yourself, and the last is a mech IC.

I can say it refering to myself though, the push on me P2 regarding the Doge slot made me incredibly blatent town if any of them are wolf, and given it was 4 players ocrams razor dictates that they are wolf. I also think that I never ever take the stance I've taken on Eiralox if I'm a wolf, unless we're exactly w/w, in which case I probably push it more.

[JacksonVirgo]

You saying the top three is spewed town is a little awkward when you're only referring to a single person (Kay). You can't reasonably say this about yourself, and the last is a mech IC.

I can say it refering to myself though, the push on me P2 regarding the Doge slot made me incredibly blatent town if any of them are wolf, and given it was 4 players ocrams razor dictates that they are wolf. I also think that I never ever take the stance I've taken on Eiralox if I'm a wolf, unless we're exactly w/w, in which case I probably push it more.

The bar for clearing someone you'd know is town (yourself) is low. I also don't even know what you're referring to regarding P2. Why would you not take the stance you'd made on Eiralox (who I am scum-reading, mind you )

[Luka]

The bar for clearing someone you'd know is town (yourself) is low. I also don't even know what you're referring to regarding P2. Why would you not take the stance you'd made on Eiralox (who I am scum-reading, mind you )

If we were TvS and I was the scum I would just bury them, their posts are bad to the point where I think Howism could case them.
I know the bar for clearing myself is slow, I'm talking about when I said the Doge wasn't towny and 4 people jumped on me. That's never a SvS interaction in the slightest heir, and I think that chances are a scum is among the people who interacted with it in the slightest.

[KayJayQueue]

I’m not voting any of these today: Firebringer (obviously), Luka, HEM. Or myself.

[JacksonVirgo]

The bar for clearing someone you'd know is town (yourself) is low. I also don't even know what you're referring to regarding P2. Why would you not take the stance you'd made on Eiralox (who I am scum-reading, mind you )

If we were TvS and I was the scum I would just bury them, their posts are bad to the point where I think Howism could case them.
I know the bar for clearing myself is slow, I'm talking about when I said the Doge wasn't towny and 4 people jumped on me. That's never a SvS interaction in the slightest heir, and I think that chances are a scum is among the people who interacted with it in the slightest.

Oh no, not howism

I don't know and cannot know the direction wolf!you would take. It could take many forms, depending on so many things. These arguments are incredibly flimsy, you should realistically know that. Even if that's never an SvS interaction (I don't care about these types of things until flips actually happen), that doesn't clear you.

[JacksonVirgo]

I don't really care about this topic though, this is just discussing for the sake of it as far as productive discussions go

[Eiralox]

I’m not voting any of these today: Firebringer (obviously), Luka, HEM. Or myself.

Could you elaborate on why not monkey when you have time

[GuyInFreezer]

==Eats Mafia for breakfast, maybe==
humaneatingmonkey

==Mid but Town==
Luka

HEM's only read amounts towards me being a wolf here, so why do you have me mid but town and them higher, presuming the mid is refering to reads?
(Also, presuming the scum team is Mel / Eir I don't think that I've played that poorly joycat)

Being town != Being right

[KayJayQueue]

I’m not voting any of these today: Firebringer (obviously), Luka, HEM. Or myself.

Could you elaborate on why not monkey when you have time

It’s a gut townlean at the moment that I’d like to observe the rest of Day 1 and into Day 2 to get a more concrete read. It’s not fully developed but it’s enough to not want to vote there.