Newbie 1143 - Game Over

[Lunitawolf]

Could you expand on your current read of Wolf? I feel like you were easing off the townread somewhat already. Maybe you could quote me some of the good scumhunting he did? Because he has, by far, the most opportunistic vote record of anyone in this game - and that's saying something with how the votes were flying Day 1.

Okay, after reading through again I've changed Gen back to a null read. Thanks for challenging my thinking, Thor, I do have a habit of getting anchored, which is dangerous here...

My Initial Reasoning

The post that caused me to first think he was town is a bit odd to explain because it was based on his reaction to something weird my predecessor's posted:

After confirmations were done, Effortless voted Saldyn and Gen_wolf voted Effortless.

Travis made his first post saying (?!?):

vote

:saldyn

I see early signs of collusion with saldyn and Gen_Wolf. With little explanation, Gen_Wolf came to the protection of saldyn from Effortless' vote. I'm curious to see how these two act in the future. For now, my vote is for saldyn. I urge everyone to join me in this effort. If saldyn is guilty, I propose to hang Gen_Wolf next, in that he is also a mafia member. If saldyn is innocent, I propose we do not hang Gen_Wolf in the next day phase.

When I was going through my first read and taking notes, I started to comment on this and realized it was from my own role. All I can guess is that Travis was trying to dive right in and get things moving. Though it's crazy that he already wanted to chain lynch Saldyn-Genwolf together if Saldyn flipped scum. I would have called Travis out on this post if I had been playing with him, so Genwolf gained town points for doing so and for keeping his vote on him waiting for an answer.

When I did my first read for him he also gained points because he solicited opinions from people who had been quiet: Saldyn (#113), Daybid (#207), Travis (see #206 where he says now that Travis is contributing he will reserve judgment and see how he plays game out) ... generating discussion is pro-town. Especially as he wasn't pushing a specific agenda.

Also, although he started voicing suspicions on Thomith as early as August 6 he cautioned not just looking at Thomith and had been suspicious of effortless for thinking Thomith potential scum:

Lizk, i'm not to sure on, I get the impression Thomith is dragging you into some petty battle about contradictions and all that... So i think if you focus on other people and re read what others had to say you could give some reads on them rather than focusing all your time on Thomith for now

@Effortless: Seems like your trying to get a little bit of a bandwagon going on Thomith... a little scummy???

Opposite

I had a professor in school who, when someone had a strong view on something, would force him to argue the opposite side. Good mental practice. So doing that here:

* Genwold does vote/cast suspicion on a lot of people.

- Although he had his vote on Travis, he started accusing Thomith on August 6.

As for Thomith, i've been watching you closely since the beginning! You've been very active but your very quick to accuse people for the smallest things, your also very quick to change votes and jump from one person to the next! You've also been asking all the questions and attacking everyone which is very scum like i feel...

- Although he never mentions any suspicion of Hazard (Thor), he votes Hazard (Thor) on August 10 and puts him at L-1 "to get the game going" and switches back to Travis when questioned on placing someone at L-1
[*Though I don't think this is a scumtell in this case]

- Votes Daybid Aug. 14, next day unvotes saying though Daybid was "very suspicious" but now thinks he's town. Says he suspicious of effortless and questions why effortless thinks Thomith isn't town.

- On August 18 he says (see above) that effortless is scummy for trying to start a bandwagon on Thomith and says Lizk should focus on other people, but the next day August 19, he votes Thomith putting Thomith at L-1 saying time was running out. [#349]

That was the end of his contribution through Day 1.

@Genwolf - Why did you change your vote so often Day 1?

* He did make a point to go out of his way to say Effortless wasn't defending him ... why? Possible scumslip?

@Everyone

What do people think about a possible effortless/gen team?

I know you are all going to think im defending him because he defended me, as was pointed out earlier by someone

Why was this necessary to state? Guilty conscience?

Necessary because if I hadn't stated it someone would of been like "Effortless defending Wolf, Wolf defending effortless... I think scum" where as i stated it because I don't mind answering questions about it, so rather than beat around the bush, just be honest and to the point...

However, Effortless wasn't protecting me, he was just stating his opinion which someone thought it was him defending me

For me, the above doesn't make him scum per se, even if not great scumhunting yet.

Does this line up with your view, Thor?

[Flameaxe]

Votecount 2.3

effortless [2] (Ozzie72, Gen_wolf)
Gen_wolf [2] (Thor665, Lunitawolf)

Not Voting [4] (Haylen, lizk000, Daybid, effortless)

Deadline:

September 17th, 9PM EST
Prodding: Daybid. Replacing Ozzie72.

With eight players alive, it will take five votes to lynch and four votes to no lynch!

[Thor665]

As non-newbie I'd probably be all over her. But the play you're describing is not one I would expect from a player who is unsure about how to even scumhunt. I think it's far more likely she was just mistaking omgus energy for being 'sure' about something. Also, what newbie scum would go gung-ho with town and volunteer to be lynched if they flip town? Do you think as newbie scum she'd have *any* confidence that wouldn't happen? I don't. If it was just her calling him obv. scum over and over it would be different, but the specific stance is something else and comes from a town mindset I believe.

Her first post strikes me as a null post alignment wise. Are you angling for the 'congratulate the doc' tell here? I've found that one to be questionable at best, especially in newbies.

[lizk000]

@Lunita - lizk is such obvious town it hurts. What newbie town comes out to another town with "yeah, if you're not scum feel free to lynch me next!" Seriously now, that's a giant flaming wall of town tell right there.

Starting with Lizk...

Maybe that read is right, but the alternate read I'd love to have you pick apart is...

She is scum. She saw that the Tomith was close to being lynched, and she wanted to seal the deal before focus shifted elsewhere to prevent her or her scum buddy from being the chosen target of the day. So she took an all-knowing stance and said, "I know I'm right, I bet my life on it!" because she wanted anyone who was on the fence to be attracted to the certainty and vote with her. It worked and he got lynched.

Isn't it possible newbie scum would be so excited at being close to a lynch that they would make the error of stating more knowledge than they can possibly have as town (because at Day 1 no town knows anything other than that they themselves are town)?

Also, it was a pretty empty promise as it turns out as no one but me even held her feet to the fire for it, and I'm currently humoring you, so not even me... So maybe at best it's a null read not flaming town sign because if town can get away with that statement, so can scum, so the statement loses meaning...

@Thor If you would also answer please: What do you think about her first post of Day 2?

Well in the mean time, I'm glad no one else got killed last night! That means we definitely either have a doctor or a jail keeper, right?

First off, during day 1, when I first accused Tomith, he was no where close to being lynched. That move was not me jumping on the bandwagon, I started that. Although I wasn't the first one to vote, I was definitely the first one to voice a suspicion of him (maybe something was done way way earlier, but not relating to why he got lynched).

To your second point; this just doesn't make sense to me. Hypothetically, if I was scum, me calling tomith, a townie, scum would not be an error of stating more knowledge than I would have had if I was town. Sorry, that sentence doesn't sound very coherent, but I don't really know how else to put it.

And about my quote at the end: When I posted this, I didn't know discussing power roles in this specific way was such taboo land. Another huge mumbo-jumbo newbie fail (as Thor would probably put it).


Ah, I know I need to post more about other people and what not, but right now I really have to go do some work. I'm planning on getting on later tonight though!

[effortless]

I must say I'm feeling a little lost. Hazard definitely felt suspicious but I'm having trouble seeing Thor as scum.
OTOH, I had Gen_Wolf as town and now he comes out with this contrived attack supported by bad logic. I'd say that makes him scummy but I could just be overreacting because he's attacking me. It doesn't help that he just disappeared and never reacted to my answer.

[Thor665]

@lizk - Eh, PR 'rolefishing' is some sort of taboo around here, though not as big as you might be thinking it is. The point is you didn't actually rolefish, and at that point you're just sort of generically fishing for the setup, and I don't see that really hurting town except in some ways that I don't want to specifically narrow down right now, but if you remind me endgame I'll provide. I personally think Lunita was working off one of Tarl's tells - which is that scum are more likely to congratulate doc/JKer/RBer/et al after a no kill night than a town player is. It's not a totally unreasonable tell, but even Tarl noted it as being a tell to be paired with others, and not a super valid one in and of itself. (plus, the meta has probably shifted on that one the instant he posted the list - derp)

@effortless - to sort out the thoughts. Outline why Glove was scum. Outline why Wolf was town. Weigh how valid each tell really is, and then you'll be closer to getting an actual feel for how valid the cases as a whole are. Don't make me have to do to you what I just did to Lunita - she had Wolf as town, sure, but in reality it was off a vague gut feel at best. As soon as I asked 'why' she realized she didn't have a true answer, and admitted points I had made were legitimate and not contrived. Part of scumhunting is getting your reads, and part is bouncing them out and around and making sure they hold up - and then abandoning the ones that don't pass muster...unless you're me and want to stubbornly cling to a read like a whiny man-child...but I'm vaguely correct in a manner with higher percentages than random, which, to my mind, is the best one can hope for, so it makes me guarded about my reads more than some (and less than others...).

[Thor665]

Also - be mindful about the 'well spoken = town' paradox. I get that a lot when replacing in - I don't mind it (because I'm always town, natch ) but I've noticed that I usually look more town than people I was replacing because I'm an aggressive poster, who makes his thoughts very clear, and is able to convey them in a way that tends to make people believe I know what the fug I'm talking about (fooled you, I just roll dice and pull names from hats!). Inherently that is usually better than whoever I'm replacing because they were replaced due to lack of time to play, possibly discovering they didn't like/understand the game and, in some instances, language barriers.

If I'm making the slot town off just that then either your case was inherently silly, and I should get a town read. Or, you're forgetting the core of the case, in which case I should still be held accountable.

[Lunitawolf]

To your second point; this just doesn't make sense to me. Hypothetically, if I was scum, me calling tomith, a townie, scum would not be an error of stating more knowledge than I would have had if I was town. Sorry, that sentence doesn't sound very coherent, but I don't really know how else to put it.

@Lizk Scum have absolute knowledge on who is scum and who is town. Unlike town who only know that they are town and have no clue what alignment the other people are. As a result, scum are operating from a position of certainty and knowledge, and town are operating from a position of odds/hunches/feels.

So when I questioned your saying, "Thomith is definitely scum," my point was that your post was speaking from a place of certainty -- that's what I was keying in on... not on the lie itself. My thought is that town at this point would not make so certain a declaration but rather a "I really, really think Thomith is scum." Make sense now?

[Gen_Wolf]

Well reading through, to answer Lunita, the basic answer was because I was unsure of who was scum at the time but to answer in detail:

- Although he never mentions any suspicion of Hazard (Thor), he votes Hazard (Thor) on August 10 and puts him at L-1 "to get the game going" and switches back to Travis when questioned on placing someone at L-1
[*Though I don't think this is a scumtell in this case]

This is how it shows. At the time i had no suspicions of Hazard, yet the game had slowed up, posting was at an almost stand still and to try bring the game to life I put Hazard on L1, when Travis made a comment, being the newb i am as it is my first game, i got scared of doing something wrong and took my vote off... In hind sight I should of left that vote on and waited for Hazard to respond, however also in hindsight, scum might of dropped the hammer on him to get a lynch so still not sure if that was good or bad?

Votes Daybid Aug. 14, next day unvotes saying though Daybid was "very suspicious" but now thinks he's town. Says he suspicious of effortless and questions why effortless thinks Thomith isn't town.

And I don't see how this is a bad thing? I questioned effortless as to why he thought a player was non town and guess what, that player was town. Secondly, I still think effortless is scum as i did at that time?

Lastly, yes i did vote Thomith, but so did 4 other people and i did vote Thomith because in those 4 days between my votes my judgement had been swayed!

Yes, I voted a lot, but I voted when I thought something of a person, Thor makes it sound worse than it is! I voted days apart after I had a reason to vote! Lunita, I feel you don't believe i'm scum but have been talked into it by Thor as a lot of you will most likely be! And like I said before, it's not that me that will lose out it is the town.

I've done nothing but probe on day 1 asking questions trying to get the scum to stand out, i put L1 pressure votes on, I asked questions, I suspected people and i actively posted... On day 2, Thor rocks up and ive been defending since... And i'm not going to anymore, I'm doing what I was before!

So

@Effortless: What was the question, sorry I must of missed it?

@Thor, your new to the game yet your posting the most and you could say "almost taken charge of the scumhunt" don't you think this is a little bold being a new player? Also, starting bandwagon on someone who will turn up town (AKA me) will only be detrimental to you but also the town! So think before you act!

@Everyone else, what are your current thoughts on how the game is progressing, also what do you think of Thor's play?

[Thor665]

@Thor, your new to the game yet your posting the most and you could say "almost taken charge of the scumhunt" don't you think this is a little bold being a new player? Also, starting bandwagon on someone who will turn up town (AKA me) will only be detrimental to you but also the town! So think before you act!

Let's take this in steps;

1. Yes, I have taken charge (someone should be leading the town) I think it's a great idea because I'm town and I'd rather have town leading the vote then scum. If people don't like it then they should also start leading and being more aggressive and active, this will then make it harder for scum to slime along and lurk and vote like weak little sheep. Also - I'm a player now, whether or not I'm new has very little meaning to how accurate my reads are (except, frankly, sometimes I think new players tend to be more accurate)

2. Starting a bandwagon on someone who will flip town...well...gosh, thanks for the AtE and fear tactics, I suppose? I'm pretty sure everyone in this game will claim 'town' if I ask them, so pretty much we're going to lynch someone who says they're town. I personally believe you're lying when you say you're town, so I think you're a smart bet.

I'd like to note neither of your 'questions' were really questions. Both were actually defensive remarks, made to get me to back off of you - but out of fear or uncertainty rather than actually addressing the case on you. In oter words - they were scummy defense not town questions.

Also, a question back at you;

You claim your mind changed between the two posts I noted. In one post you were pressing on effortless (for reasons that weren't legit) and claimed you were going to rephrase the assault.
In the next you were voting Thomith.
Today you're back at effortless via sheeping Ozzie.

Could you explain your effortless suspicion and also clarify how Thomith became a better vote yesterday when you hammered him?
I think it looks scummy as all get out, but you're saying it's all quite reasonable - so probably you just need to explain it to me.

[Gen_Wolf]

You claim your mind changed between the two posts I noted. In one post you were pressing on effortless (for reasons that weren't legit) and claimed you were going to rephrase the assault.
In the next you were voting Thomith.
Today you're back at effortless via sheeping Ozzie.
.

Thor, Sheeping Ozzie really? haha thats a good laugh actually i enjoyed that!
Ok, well your mind is set, nothing I say makes you think differently so i wont waste my time, I will be productive!

Also, yes everyone will claim town, what I said to you, and because you didn't read properly because your so super eager to respond in such a smart way is: WHEN I DO TURN UP TOWN, DO YOU NOT THINK THAT WILL BE DETRIMENTAL TO YOU, AND TO TOWN?? There was no IF in there it was a WHEN, its not a scare tactic it was the truth!

Stop being so subjective and answering all the questions that make you look good and start being productive and answering questions for face value!

[Lunitawolf]

In hind sight I should of left that vote on and waited for Hazard to respond, however also in hindsight, scum might of dropped the hammer on him to get a lynch so still not sure if that was good or bad?

Well, I think it depends on the situation. L-1 isn't bad if you have a legitimate reason to think the person is scummy, but it's not worth the risk of a hammer if you have no basis at all, like you didn't have here. And maybe a quick hammer would have led us to catching scum if he had flipped town, but we also could have risked losing two townies in the process: the one hammered and the overly-excited townie who recklessly hammered who gets lynched the next day.

Votes Daybid Aug. 14, next day unvotes saying though Daybid was "very suspicious" but now thinks he's town. Says he suspicious of effortless and questions why effortless thinks Thomith isn't town.

And I don't see how this is a bad thing? I questioned effortless as to why he thought a player was non town and guess what, that player was town. Secondly, I still think effortless is scum as i did at that time?

@GenWolf

Can you explain to me what was "very suspicious" about Daybid on August 14 and what he did on August 15 that made you 180 and place him as town?

Yes, I voted a lot, but I voted when I thought something of a person, Thor makes it sound worse than it is! I voted days apart after I had a reason to vote! Lunita, I feel you don't believe i'm scum but have been talked into it by Thor as a lot of you will most likely be!

I don't have you placed in the likely scum camp at the point, no. But I no longer have you in the squarely town camp now either. Thor got me to go back and read with a more discerning eye -- which is a good thing, regardless of what his alignment may end up being -- and I realized I should do more probing before deciding where to place you.

And like I said before, it's not that me that will lose out it is the town.

Um... if you're town, how do you not lose out if town loses out?

[Thor665]

Thor, Sheeping Ozzie really? haha thats a good laugh actually i enjoyed that!

Okay - so maybe then you'd be willing to explain why you're voting him and why your 'rephrase' of the case on him yesterday became a vote for Thomith then?
For someone chiding me for not answering things you actually totally avoided addressing the question I asked you in my last post.

WHEN I DO TURN UP TOWN, DO YOU NOT THINK THAT WILL BE DETRIMENTAL TO YOU, AND TO TOWN?? There was no IF in there it was a WHEN, its not a scare tactic it was the truth!

Okay, so let's treat if like the truth!
Exclamation win!

Basically, if you flip town I will be sad that a town player played in such a scummy way - but I will be happy that via PoE you will have moved us closer to finding the actual scum.

[Gen_Wolf]

I've told you why Ive voted for Effortless, maybe you should read the last page again! Again, that goes back to my theory that you dont actually read everything! You take what you want and modify it for how you want it to sound and leave out everything else inbetween, which seems to me is quite a bit!

As for your gameplay method! That is awful, that is such a gun hoe method! O here is an idea, why don't we just line everyone in the world up and shoot them all because that way atleast one of the 6 billion people is going to be a criminal!

Your proving to me, and I would like to hope to everyone else that your not a very credible player and that your methods arn't so accurate! So one you have basically just admitted is that you will bandwagon potentially every other player in this game, and it doesn't matter if they are town or not because that is one player less to worry about!

Anyways,

Unvote: Vote: Thor

This is NOT a OMGUS vote, this is a OMG you are completely retarded vote!

[Thor665]

@Gen_Wolf - last page you made your case by sheeping Lunita's case. Maybe you should repeat it again just for yucks.

Why not such a gung-ho method? Your real world example is a straw man rebuttal. I'm not supporting lynching everyone, I am supporting lynching my scum reads and you're acting like that somehow makes me a bad player...whut?

I certainly hope I'm a credible player, but will admit I often wish I was better. Still - I seem to have accurate reads more often than random chance dictates - and that's not a bad place to be.

Retarded players = scum? How does that work?

[Thor665]

This is such a convincing case put forward by Lunita I dont see how you can look past it really, my vote stays with effortless!

Here is the case from last page on Effortless.
I'm not really sold on it - even apparently Lunita isn't sold on it.
When did you make *your* case on effortless - could you link me to it and let me know if that is still your entire case?

Also, please explain why you hoped on Thomith after saying you were going to rephrase your Effortless case yesterday - I still don't understand how that happened. COuld you walk me through it (I'm a terrible player, so please use small words).

[Gen_Wolf]

@Lunita - Sorry didn't see your post earlier but to answer your question:

Daybid was new to the game on Aug 14th and on that same day i asked him

@Daybid, im guessing at some point you will/already have read through the game as far as we are now! what are your thoughts on it?

Post #207

Now, from me posting that there was a discussion between daybid and a few players, some comments were made by Daybid, there was then a discussion between daybid and a few other players ensued... also two votes were cast on Daybid, Thomith & Haylen.

Then in post #221 Daybid short replied and suddenly changed focus of conversation from himself to Travis B, which immediately raised my suspicion along with the conversation that happened between posts #207 and #221... that let to me voting for Daybid because firstly, he was new and he already had 3 players, it was a pressure vote to see what information we could get out of him as obviously his old character didnt give us to much.

Also, I didn't like the sudden change of topic, it didn't sit right with me so I thought there would be no harm in putting a vote on him until a more convincing came a long!

[Lunitawolf]

@Gen I know Thor doesn't need anyone to stand up for him, but I feel the need to say something because it feels to me like you're attacking him personally -- not just his arguments. I think he's a great player and mentor, and I was excited to see he joined this game. I feel like I learn something from reading his posts and that it will improve my own play in the future.

Don't you think you're overreacting? After all, how can we figure out who to trust without fully examining them?

And that includes examining Thor too, of course.

@Effortless

What was it that made you suspicious of Hazard before? And what is it about Thor that is making you think he is town?

[Gen_Wolf]

Hmmm, I thought I was sheeping Ozzie... Anyways, this is the post I was refering too and it was on page 17 not 18 sorry

I absolutley 100% agree with ozzia above! Effortless is pushing so hard for everyone else being scum that it now looks so blatently obvious he is the scum! I also think lizk is a townie!

Also, ran out of cap on my computer so will be using my phone until I get my internet back but I will post my thoughts but will be a little tricky to quote and vote!

So for now: fos: effortless!

Now you called me a sheep, IF YOU READ THE SECOND LINE (because we have discussed this already, you don't like too read all of the post you like reading just one little incy line but dontworry i bolded it for you to make it that much easier

Also, ran out of cap on my computer so will be using my phone until I get my internet back but I will post my thoughts but will be a little tricky to quote and vote!

I don't understand what your asking here:

Also, please explain why you hoped on Thomith after saying you were going to rephrase your Effortless case yesterday - I still don't understand how that happened. COuld you walk me through it (I'm a terrible player, so please use small words).

Could you use smaller words please? but seriously, what do you want?

[Gen_Wolf]

I absolutley 100% agree with ozzia above! Effortless is pushing so hard for everyone else being scum that it now looks so blatently obvious he is the scum! I also think lizk is a townie!

Also, ran out of cap on my computer so will be using my phone until I get my internet back but I will post my thoughts but will be a little tricky to quote and vote!

So for now: fos: effortless!

Now you called me a sheep, IF YOU READ THE SECOND LINE (because we have discussed this already, you don't like too read all of the post you like reading just one little incy line but dontworry i bolded it for you to make it that much easier

Also, ran out of cap on my computer so will be using my phone until I get my internet back but I will post my thoughts but will be a little tricky to quote and vote!

O and before you ask, No, i never got around to quoting my evidence on the effortless case! But if you reallly reallllly want me to, don't worry I will do it!

[Gen_Wolf]

@Gen I know Thor doesn't need anyone to stand up for him, but I feel the need to say something because it feels to me like you're attacking him personally -- not just his arguments. I think he's a great player and mentor, and I was excited to see he joined this game. I feel like I learn something from reading his posts and that it will improve my own play in the future.

Don't you think you're overreacting? After all, how can we figure out who to trust without fully examining them?

Off Game Topic:

Ok, if that's how it came across i fully apologize to all, and Thor you especially I really am sorry but in no case what so ever did I mean it to come across that way! I do get frustrated when people don't read things fully, but I wasn't trying to attack him personally but more just point out that he is missing the point! And yes I might of done it in a very sarcastic way but at no point was I trying to attack him personally! Sorry Thor and All!

On Game Topic:

@Thor/Lunita: I noticed just before you swapped in (I think its the post before Thor was swapped in) Haylen started accusing me of suspicions from there side, did you see that and did that bias your opinion or is that fully from reads before you got to that point?

[Thor665]

Hmmm, I thought I was sheeping Ozzie...

I absolutley 100% agree with ozzia above!

/quote]


So, basically what I hear is that - yes - you sheeped off of Ozzie and Lunita but only because your phone posting didn't allow you to present your own case?
Yes, I'll look forward to when you get around to doing that.

Also, ran out of cap on my computer so will be using my phone until I get my internet back but I will post my thoughts but will be a little tricky to quote and vote!

I will just say...you're apparently managing to quote and vote when it comes to defending yourself.

I don't understand what your asking here:

Also, please explain why you hoped on Thomith after saying you were going to rephrase your Effortless case yesterday - I still don't understand how that happened. COuld you walk me through it (I'm a terrible player, so please use small words).

Could you use smaller words please? but seriously, what do you want?

I'm happy to use small words.

Timeline;

Here you're "not sure" about lizk, and strongly suspect effortless.
Here lizk calls you out for the silliness in your effortless push, you admit you are wrong and want to reread so you can rephrase your case.
Here in your next post, you don't mention effortless at all - you say you suspect lizk and Thomith...and then you L-1 Thomith. You do not discus effortless again that day, but at the start of day you suspect him more than anyone.

Well...why do you suspect him more then anyone?
What happened to your suspicion on lizk?
What happened to your suspicion on effortless when you decided to hop on Thomith for "pressure" (which is called distancing from a town lynch, in my book)

[Thor665]

Sorry Thor and All!

I took no offense at all - no worries.

@Thor/Lunita: I noticed just before you swapped in (I think its the post before Thor was swapped in) Haylen started accusing me of suspicions from there side, did you see that and did that bias your opinion or is that fully from reads before you got to that point?

I was aware that Haylen was pressuring on you certainly by the time I read and posted my reads on pages 8-18. I don't recall if I was aware prior to that, but it wouldn't surprise me, I seem to recall reading the page I replaced into. I don't think it colored my case particularly - I outlined my issues with you and Haylen really didn't outline hers, so it would have been hard for me to copy a case. If there was some subtle mental undertone that affected me it is too subtle for me to be aware of - but I will say (and Haylen would probably agree) the liklihood of me getting excited to sheep a case of hers is exceedingly low.

[Gen_Wolf]

Here you're "not sure" about lizk, and strongly suspect effortless.

Lizk i was unsure of because I felt she had a little bit of redmist syndrome going on as she and Thomith were in a heavy debate/conversation? and i felt that she wasn't able to convey what she was tryign to say because of that.

Effortless at this time wasn't really on my radar until them, so strongly suspect is a little OTT, I would say that was more of a little jab in the ribs to see what his reaction to that would of been.

Here lizk calls you out for the silliness in your effortless push, you admit you are wrong and want to reread so you can rephrase your case.

Here, I'm not to sure why I backed off, but Lizk saying "I'm the one trying to start a bandwagon" gave me her intentions so i backed off a little, can't tell you why

Here in your next post, you don't mention effortless at all - you say you suspect lizk and Thomith...and then you L-1 Thomith. You do not discus effortless again that day, but at the start of day you suspect him more than anyone.

Ok, at this point I dropped the effortless push because of Lizk's comment "I'm the one trying to start a bandwagon", at this point the two were having such a debate over each other that i was certain one of the two had to be Scum, because of the way Thomith had played Day 1 I thought it was him as I don't recall ever fully suspecting Lizk, that is why I voted Thomith... The reason I then picked up the effortless push today is because like I said before the whole Lizk Thomith incident it is where i had finished so not thinking Lizk was ever scum I went back to pick up from effortless!

I then reread day one, with the thought of Thomith being Town and certain things stood out to me which i then quoted for Day 2.

As for the Haylen question, I was never saying you did Sheep her, it was more just a question to know if you had any thoughts going into your first read over of the game!

At this point, I think Myself, Lunita and Thor have discussed an awful lot, there are another 5 players in this game! What are your thoughts?

[lizk000]

To your second point; this just doesn't make sense to me. Hypothetically, if I was scum, me calling tomith, a townie, scum would not be an error of stating more knowledge than I would have had if I was town. Sorry, that sentence doesn't sound very coherent, but I don't really know how else to put it.

@Lizk Scum have absolute knowledge on who is scum and who is town. Unlike town who only know that they are town and have no clue what alignment the other people are. As a result, scum are operating from a position of certainty and knowledge, and town are operating from a position of odds/hunches/feels.

So when I questioned your saying, "Thomith is definitely scum," my point was that your post was speaking from a place of certainty -- that's what I was keying in on... not on the lie itself. My thought is that town at this point would not make so certain a declaration but rather a "I really, really think Thomith is scum." Make sense now?

Ok, fair enough, this makes a lot more sense. I guess I just said that in such a way because I really really thought he was scum, I just got a bit too excited.


This is probably because most people aren't posting much, but right now Gen is sticking out the most too me. This is because of the reasons I was talking about earlier, and also I don't feel like you have been answering your questions particularly well lately. The pressure got even heavier on you, and then you just said, "i don't like to have to defend myself, so I am going to stop and instead ask other people questions." After Day 1's mishap, I completely understand analyzing every possible suspect, but it's not okay just for you to be like, I'm done answering questions.