Newbie 1143 - Game Over

[Thor665]

Thor firstly because Hazard was as scum as they come. His LAL comment on Thomith was really bad. I think he honestly believed he could get Thomith lynched with it. But I'm not sure that as town he would have thought it was something worth going after. Then his whole reaction to getting called out was weird.
And as far as I can see Thor didn't post anything on this.

1. When I replaced in I specifically asked if there was anything outstanding about my slot people wanted to ask me about.
2. No one asked me anything.
3. You have issues with me not addressing something you never asked me to address.
4.
5. I know he was town so I'm not wasting time "scumhunting" the slot.

To address it...I'm functionally no more able to address it than you are. I would tend to just chalk it up to newbness - a lot of newbies get really excited about 'wikitells' and the whole LaL thing is not an uncommon standpoint for a newbie to take. "Hey, this guy is lying, he must be scum because town aren't supposed to lie" it's certainly flawed but the core mentality behind it is not intrinsically flawed.

The rest of your point is based on an ephemeral belief that he would do that as scum, but not as town. The best way to address this is for me to ask you WHY you think he would do it as scum and not town? Do you have experience with his scum/town play to show this? If so, present it and you have a case. If not, then this case is "gut" at the moment, and though I'm fine with "gut" as a case you should be fine with my inability to address "gut" accusations.

I'll address his "weird" response if you outline the weirdness and what you'd like me to address about it.

In general I don't really trust Thor's posting. I think he's misreading or misrepresenting some of the stuff that happened on day 1. For example he says:

Liz does a nice awesome bit of OMGUS, and continues her habit of not actually discussing things. Newb tells are flinging from her pores and splattering all over me. I’m going to edge her into newb scum territory and leave her in the pool – I want to see where she goes when Thomith is eventually mislynched.

Meh…methinks I can guess how Thomith gets eventually mislynched.

But we never find out the reason.

1. I am not misrepresenting *anything* in that comment. Pure fact.
2. Nor are you showing me misreading anything.
3. This is not an example.
4. You do show me not explaining something that no one ever asked me to explain and that there was no purpose for me to explain.

The reason I believe Thomith got lynched was for the crime of being standoffish, which was apparent in him by that stage of the game. Players who tend to be a touch belligerent in explaining their reads are often lynched because "only scum wouldn't explain - whateverthefugwewantexplained" It was very clear he was getting a lot of negative sub-emotions from other players, and that's the sort of energy that leads to a lynch, because it helps generate easy support for a wagon.

I also agree about the day 2 scumtell. Hazard certainly didn't mean: "Oh, Smurf we didn't kill anyone" but he could have meant "Oh, Smurf, we lynched a townie. Look at me everyone: I'm upset at lynching a townie so I'm must be townie too". This of course would make him scum

I actually agree with this scumtell in general - though I think it needs support and isn't a functional case in and of itself. Newbie town often bemoans/congratulates at the start of the day and you need some other vibes to pair with the tell to have it be of much accuracy.

Sorry for the piecemeal posting but I consider this a slight town tell. Realistically, it's much easier to lynch me than Thor. This could be an OMGUS fueled by indignation, which would make Gen town.

I disagree - if only because at this stage of the game I've tossed in defense of you, so to get you lynched he'd have to downplay/deal with me anyway. Besides, it's very clear there's not enough traction to get an effortless lynch at this stage of the game.

[effortless]

Big wall of quotes followed by one-liners. For Thor.

Spoiler:

Thor firstly because Hazard was as scum as they come. His LAL comment on Thomith was really bad. I think he honestly believed he could get Thomith lynched with it. But I'm not sure that as town he would have thought it was something worth going after. Then his whole reaction to getting called out was weird.
And as far as I can see Thor didn't post anything on this.

1. When I replaced in I specifically asked if there was anything outstanding about my slot people wanted to ask me about.
2. No one asked me anything.
3. You have issues with me not addressing something you never asked me to address.
4.
5. I know he was town so I'm not wasting time "scumhunting" the slot.

That's not the point. It was an important event in itself. I would have thought you'd want to comment on it even without being asked.

To address it...I'm functionally no more able to address it than you are. I would tend to just chalk it up to newbness - a lot of newbies get really excited about 'wikitells' and the whole LaL thing is not an uncommon standpoint for a newbie to take. "Hey, this guy is lying, he must be scum because town aren't supposed to lie" it's certainly flawed but the core mentality behind it is not intrinsically flawed.

The rest of your point is based on an ephemeral belief that he would do that as scum, but not as town. The best way to address this is for me to ask you WHY you think he would do it as scum and not town? Do you have experience with his scum/town play to show this? If so, present it and you have a case. If not, then this case is "gut" at the moment, and though I'm fine with "gut" as a case you should be fine with my inability to address "gut" accusations.

Now you're just confusing me. You say you're no more capable of addressing it than me and then you come up with a reason that I couldn't have thought of.
It's obvious why he would do it as scum. As town he might find the fact of lying suspicious but his reaction would often be something less certain.

In general I don't really trust Thor's posting. I think he's misreading or misrepresenting some of the stuff that happened on day 1. For example he says:

Liz does a nice awesome bit of OMGUS, and continues her habit of not actually discussing things. Newb tells are flinging from her pores and splattering all over me. I’m going to edge her into newb scum territory and leave her in the pool – I want to see where she goes when Thomith is eventually mislynched.

Meh…methinks I can guess how Thomith gets eventually mislynched.

But we never find out the reason.

1. I am not misrepresenting *anything* in that comment. Pure fact.
2. Nor are you showing me misreading anything.
3. This is not an example.

1 and 3 are the same
Maybe it's not the best example. It is an example of ignoring something that is significant.

A more direct example is when you say about liz "Actually…some of her later jousts with Thomith where she’s basically saying any mistake=scumtell"

When actually what she says, quite sensibly, that some mistakes are significant while others aren't. Like her missing a post.
Maybe you meant that tongue in cheek, sometimes it's hard to tell.

4. You do show me not explaining something that no one ever asked me to explain and that there was no purpose for me to explain.

The reason I believe Thomith got lynched was for the crime of being standoffish, which was apparent in him by that stage of the game. Players who tend to be a touch belligerent in explaining their reads are often lynched because "only scum wouldn't explain - whateverthefugwewantexplained" It was very clear he was getting a lot of negative sub-emotions from other players, and that's the sort of energy that leads to a lynch, because it helps generate easy support for a wagon.

But there is a purpose. It could help distinguish between scum and misguided townies on the wagon.
Ignoring the issue however allows you to use mere the fact someone voted on Thomith as an argument later in the game.
Or if I do decide you're town it allows me to check your arguments for myself.

I also agree about the day 2 scumtell. Hazard certainly didn't mean: "Oh, Smurf we didn't kill anyone" but he could have meant "Oh, Smurf, we lynched a townie. Look at me everyone: I'm upset at lynching a townie so I'm must be townie too". This of course would make him scum

I actually agree with this scumtell in general - though I think it needs support and isn't a functional case in and of itself. Newbie town often bemoans/congratulates at the start of the day and you need some other vibes to pair with the tell to have it be of much accuracy.

Well, that's always true. But it's not like this is the only argument against Hazard/you so there's no reason to point this out.

Sorry for the piecemeal posting but I consider this a slight town tell. Realistically, it's much easier to lynch me than Thor. This could be an OMGUS fueled by indignation, which would make Gen town.

I disagree - if only because at this stage of the game I've tossed in defense of you, so to get you lynched he'd have to downplay/deal with me anyway.

Besides, it's very clear there's not enough traction to get an effortless lynch at this stage of the game.

First I don't see why that would be true, second even if it was I'm not sure Gen would see it that way anyway.

[Thor665]

That's not the point. It was an important event in itself. I would have thought you'd want to comment on it even without being asked.

There were multiple events in this game that other people took as 'big things' that I didn't address. I addressed what I thought was important.

Now you're just confusing me. You say you're no more capable of addressing it than me and then you come up with a reason that I couldn't have thought of.

It's obvious why he would do it as scum. As town he might find the fact of lying suspicious but his reaction would often be something less certain.

So, basically you're saying any level of certainty is a scumtell then? I disagree pretty strongly.
He had the "fact" of lying in a player - at that stage it's just a question of whether or not he considers that a viable standalone scumtell. Without evidence to the contrary there is no more value in me saying 'yes, he finds it solid' as in you saying 'there's no way town would find that solid' and therein lies the impasse of the discussion for us being outsiders looking in. All I can say for certain is, he was town, so he probably believed it more than you think he did.

Maybe it's not the best example. It is an example of ignoring something that is significant.

I didn't ignore it (and think it's pretty subjective to call it "important" that I had my own theory about how the mislynch happened).
I didn't explain it to other people until asked - there's a difference.

A more direct example is when you say about liz "Actually…some of her later jousts with Thomith where she’s basically saying any mistake=scumtell"

When actually what she says, quite sensibly, that some mistakes are significant while others aren't. Like her missing a post.
Maybe you meant that tongue in cheek, sometimes it's hard to tell.

So you're taking issue with me calling her town?
I think her post 206 is functional to my interpretation of the events and is not misrepresenting.

But there is a purpose. It could help distinguish between scum and misguided townies on the wagon.
Ignoring the issue however allows you to use mere the fact someone voted on Thomith as an argument later in the game.
Or if I do decide you're town it allows me to check your arguments for myself.

1. Yes, so the players who want that information can ask for it.
2. I noted my belief about the wagon, and *clearly and explicitly* noted the votes on the wagon I found questionable and why.

First I don't see why that would be true, second even if it was I'm not sure Gen would see it that way anyway.[/spoiler]

1. You don't get to lynch someone easily if someone with a strong town presence is defending them. You certainly don't get to sit there for uncertainly stated and sheeping reasons, and perhaps want to hop off instead of addressing the multiple requests to state your actual case on the player in question.
2. It's possible, but I think considering the heat he gained for his position there he made a strategically defensive move to distance from the wagon. Whether he did it as a reasoned choice or a emotional gut feeling is open for debate - but the core action is not inherently a town tell in my opinion.

[effortless]

It's obvious why he would do it as scum. As town he might find the fact of lying suspicious but his reaction would often be something less certain.

So, basically you're saying any level of certainty is a scumtell then? I disagree pretty strongly.
He had the "fact" of lying in a player - at that stage it's just a question of whether or not he considers that a viable standalone scumtell. Without evidence to the contrary there is no more value in me saying 'yes, he finds it solid' as in you saying 'there's no way town would find that solid' and therein lies the impasse of the discussion for us being outsiders looking in.

I don't understand what you're saying.

So you're taking issue with me calling her town?
I think her post 206 is functional to my interpretation of the events and is not misrepresenting.

I agree that Liz is probably townie. I don't agree that bravely saying mistakes are scummy after admitting she missed a post is a town-tell. And I'm slightly puzzled why you think it is.

1. Yes, so the players who want that information can ask for it.
2. I noted my belief about the wagon, and *clearly and explicitly* noted the votes on the wagon I found questionable and why.

1. Sure they can. They can also draw conclusions based on what you decide to share without being asked.
2. Gotta check, must have missed it.

First I don't see why that would be true, second even if it was I'm not sure Gen would see it that way anyway.[/spoiler]

1. You don't get to lynch someone easily if someone with a strong town presence is defending them. You certainly don't get to sit there for uncertainly stated and sheeping reasons, and perhaps want to hop off instead of addressing the multiple requests to state your actual case on the player in question.
2. It's possible, but I think considering the heat he gained for his position there he made a strategically defensive move to distance from the wagon. Whether he did it as a reasoned choice or a emotional gut feeling is open for debate - but the core action is not inherently a town tell in my opinion.

At worst he could have taken the position that I'm scum and you're either my buddy or just overconfident in your reads because you're playing newbies. That would have been my choice as scum anyway. I don't think it clears him but it makes it slightly less likely he's scum.

[Gen_Wolf]

Well, got home earlier than expected so here are my thoughts:

As much as i dont wan't to be voted off, its hard for me to bounce back! Things going for me are that, I played day 1 well

But no, What I will do is I am going to go and get some evidence against the people I think are scum or slightly suspicious and post it in the next few posts; Effortless, you can hold the vote as long as possible but the fact will remain the same, I will be lynched and delaying it any further will only postpone the game but might help scum dig there covers deeper...

So Here goes:
Effortless: I've read and re-read and as much as I hate admitting i'm wrong, I think im wrong about Effortless, I feel that in the past I was making certain situations fit for him being scum but overall, after re-reading again I feel that he is Townie! (I hope i don't regret changing this decision). Reasons that changed me, in particular his arguments with Thomith, they are so similar and we all know Thomith turned up townie, and I feel they were both trying to fight for townie so Effortless = Townie for now (If im wrong Im going to punch myself... HARD)

Haylen: I still feel Haylen is scum, he was called out for active lurking which struck me as a bit odd at first but I didn't say anything, however, I feel that he has been very good at not saying a lot but when he does it is a lot of fluff coming out of his mouth, he is also always trying to divert attention from himself... A perfect example of this was me, and this is what im talking about

I'd like to know everyone's read on Gen_Wolf because something doesn't quite sit right with him.

Gen_Wolf wrote:
Also if I was working with Saldyn, which I am not, dont you think its a little to early to be defending him?

There's this. Which is WIFOM in itself and also it didn't really need to be said.

There's probably other stuff too because gut reads don't come from no where, but I need to sleep right now.

So, its very short, before this post he hasn't posted a lot and flame has prodded him, so "He had no time to reread the game thread" yet he can make such an indepth analyze to call me up on, that post he quoted from me was from page 2, anyone can bring a point up on page 17 and say "ooo this is really suspcious' it was still in the RVS, and he ends of by saying its WIFOM, how can it be WIFOM if this is my first game, he then proceeded to say

"There is prob other stuff too because gut reads dont come from no where"

yet he never provided that "Other stuff"

Therefore, I believe Haylen has done a very good job of getting us townies to chase our tales!

Lastly, Thor, something didnt sit quite right with Hazard and the same goes for you! Maybe it is coincidental and its both your characters but chances are slim, however saying that im not quite sure what it is, you do a good job of probing for answers and you get your answers, so your in the middle, a little between town and scum!

So anyways, to round off:

When i turn up town, these are my SUGGESTIONS (As i realize, i am dead and its very unlikely you will follow them, however they are there so i can say i told you so )
1. Dont get night killed
2. After night kill, lynch Haylen
3. Dont get night killed
4. I would say lynch effortless or thor however so much can happen in a day* that you must play it by ear

*I went from being super townie to super scum in the space of a day so a lot can change!

[Flameaxe]

Votecount 2.5

Gen_wolf [4] (Thor665, Lunitawolf, Haylen, Quilford)

Thor665 [1] (Gen_wolf)

Not Voting [3] (lizk000, Daybid, effortless)

Deadline:

September 17th, 9PM EST
Prodding: No one. Searching for a Daybid replacement.

With eight players alive, it will take five votes to lynch and four votes to no lynch!

[Flameaxe]

racerman13 replaces Daybid, effective immediately

[racerman13]

Hi guys! I'll be Daybid's replacement, racerman13.

Need to read the thread in depth, but skimming, I don't think Gen_wolf is scum. At all.

[effortless]

Alright, reread Gen_Wolf's posts and I don't think he's scum.

Quilford, I think if you look at the baseline a lot of things that you said were suspicious are actually consistent with how Gen_Wolf posts in general. E.g.

baseline (talking about RL, almost certainly true):

Sorry i been a little quite, very busy weekend but

as stated

usually busy most weekends!

gameplay:

Also if I was working with Saldyn,

which I am not

, dont you think its a little to early to be defending him?

If i could add my 2 cents in here, I personally feel Effortless answered his questions well,

and I know you are all going to think im defending him because he defended me, as was pointed out earlier by someone

... So right now i struggle to see Effortless as scum and I see the point he was trying to get across I however feel he is wrong.

The bolded parts look suspicious in isolation but are actually consistent with how Gen_Wolf posts.

Same goes for your comment on jittery tone. You can see it in many of his posts, even spelling. Sorry, Gen, it's not meant as a personal attack, but you know it's true

Anyway, way too late, gotta sleep. Please, please, please don't lynch Gen_Wolf while I'm gone.

[Lunitawolf]

Who is your top suspect?

Apart from Gen it has to be you and Thor.
You because of the forced reasoning against me and because you seem to be defending Gen indirectly (who is much more likely than average to be scum).
[/quote]

@effortless

What's scummy about the suspicions I had about you?
It would be one thing if I called you scummy but didn't provide any evidence for it. But I clearly laid out exactly what I was thinking and linked to the posts that generated those thoughts, so others could easily go back for themselves and check the original source to see if they agreed or thought there were holes in my thinking.

Why is Gen much more likely than average to be scum?

What makes you feel that I am indirectly defending Gen and are you calling that scummy? Is it because I provided advice on what he should do if he's close to be lynched? That may save him, or it may not. But it would definitely assist us.

[Lunitawolf]

EBWOP:

Who is your top suspect?

Apart from Gen it has to be you and Thor.
You because of the forced reasoning against me and because you seem to be defending Gen indirectly (who is much more likely than average to be scum).

@effortless

What's scummy about the suspicions I had about you?
It would be one thing if I called you scummy but didn't provide any evidence for it. But I clearly laid out exactly what I was thinking and linked to the posts that generated those thoughts, so others could easily go back for themselves and check the original source to see if they agreed or thought there were holes in my thinking.

Why is Gen much more likely than average to be scum?

What makes you feel that I am indirectly defending Gen and are you calling that scummy? Is it because I provided advice on what he should do if he's close to be lynched? That may save him, or it may not. But it would definitely assist us.

[effortless]

Lunita, I changed my mind about Gen, see my last few posts to see why.

Gonna go ahead and

vote:Thor

Hazard looked super scummy and now I feel like he's trying to use Gen's newbieness against him. Look at these posts:

@gen: how is effortless trying to start a bandwagon on tomith? He voted for travis. I'm the one trying a get a bandwagon going on tomith (which not enough of you are getting aboard on).

Ya, sorry ive confused myself,let me reread and then repost

You were asked to provide evidence and yet you didn't. Why is this?

i have been most of the game and the reactions i get out of people usually helps confirm their allignment

Thomith, thats a load of fluff! The question was "Why is this?" so your answer should be a long the lines of "I didn't provide evidence because I was lazy" not that you have done it for everything else so this one time your allowed to get away with it!

However, I think the answer is "I had no evidence and I was making false accusations because I am scum" your always having a go at people for avoiding questions when you have been doing it a whole lot!

I also thought that either Thomith or Lizk was scummy but didn't know which one! After re-reading i'm starting to suspect you Thomith and depending on how many votes you have I will be voting for you (Just need to check quickly)

Thomith, I would say time is running out...

UNVOTE: VOTE: Thomith

L-1

Anyways, Thomith I wouldn't be suprised if the hammer is dropped this time so I want to hear what you have to say as you always like putting people in "pressure situations" here is yours...

And now Thor's interpretation:

Thu Aug 18, 2011 9:09 am “Ya, sorry ive confused myself,let me reread and then repost” (this is after being called on attacking effortless for starting a bandwagon on Thomith…which lizk pointed out she was doing, not effortless)
Fri Aug 19, 2011 7:16 am – his next post, no rephrase…just a vote for…effortless…no, wait, that would make sense, instead he votes Thomith! Obv. Scum is obvious.
^^^ I’m still waiting for him to become the obv. Town I understand he apparently is – when does that happen?

Conveniently forgetting about the post where Gen explains his reasoning. A reasoning that I happen to agree with. Come on Thor, how do you miss something like this? It's right above the vote post!
Seriously, Thor has some explaining to do and until he does we should not lynch Gen_Wolf.

[Haylen]

I still feel Haylen is scum, he was called out for active lurking which struck me as a bit odd at first but I didn't say anything

I wasn't active lurking. I was being inactive due to working 48 hrs a week on a combination of day and night shifts. It's not fluff if I provide evidence of it.

I want evidence for diverting attention away from myself because that definitely hasn't happened. My indepth analyse came from your reactions. The possible sheeping of Ozzie made me suspicious of you so I decided to re-read you. I went to look for other stuff, but your reaction to my probing was sufficient enough for me to think you're scummy.

Note Gen's original vote on me was OMGUS. This is still OMGUS. I find it odd that his suspicions aren't matching his voting pattern though. He seems to be yelling most about me when it's Thor he's voting for.

Oh dear. I've been paying so much attention to Gen that I'd be at a complete loss over who is scum whatever he flips. Great. Note, don't completely tunnel on one person, it'll get you stuck in a rut.

[Flameaxe]

Now searching for a lizk000 replacement. IT NEVER ENDS.

[Gen_Wolf]

I still feel Haylen is scum, he was called out for active lurking which struck me as a bit odd at first but I didn't say anything

It's not fluff if I provide evidence of it.

Yet you never provided evidence

I want evidence for diverting attention away from myself because that definitely hasn't happened. My indepth analyse came from your reactions. The possible sheeping of Ozzie made me suspicious of you so I decided to re-read you. I went to look for other stuff, but your reaction to my probing was sufficient enough for me to think you're scummy.

So your basing your entire analyse on one reaction when we are late in to day two? So during your reread what else did you find suspicious?

Note Gen's original vote on me was OMGUS. This is still OMGUS. I find it odd that his suspicions aren't matching his voting pattern though. He seems to be yelling most about me when it's Thor he's voting for.

If this was OMGUS, I would be voting for you, this isn't OMGUS, this is asking you a question to find out why you didnt provide evidence and secondly why didn't you follow up your original accusations! Therefore, we have proven this is not a OMGUS! Again, your trying to start a bandwagon on me by making up fluff! Your the one who is as scum as they come and I wouldn't be suprised if Thor is your scum buddy!

Oh dear. I've been paying so much attention to Gen that I'd be at a complete loss over who is scum whatever he flips. Great. Note, don't completely tunnel on one person, it'll get you stuck in a rut.

Why don't you do a re read and find someone else to bandwagon

[Haylen]

Ok. What have I said, that you have considered to be fluff?

[Gen_Wolf]

I still feel Haylen is scum, he was called out for active lurking which struck me as a bit odd at first but I didn't say anything

I wasn't active lurking. I was being inactive due to working 48 hrs a week on a combination of day and night shifts. It's not fluff if I provide evidence of it.

I want evidence for diverting attention away from myself because that definitely hasn't happened. My indepth analyse came from your reactions. The possible sheeping of Ozzie made me suspicious of you so I decided to re-read you. I went to look for other stuff, but your reaction to my probing was sufficient enough for me to think you're scummy.

Note Gen's original vote on me was OMGUS. This is still OMGUS. I find it odd that his suspicions aren't matching his voting pattern though. He seems to be yelling most about me when it's Thor he's voting for.

Oh dear. I've been paying so much attention to Gen that I'd be at a complete loss over who is scum whatever he flips. Great. Note, don't completely tunnel on one person, it'll get you stuck in a rut.

This is fluff, there is no evidence in there at all! its just you speaking about voting patterns? You didn't prove voting patterns, well you cant because there arnt any! Its FLUFF!

[Haylen]

Actually the definition of fluff is not providing content. That whole post you quoted was defending myself against what you had written, hence content.

"I was inactive due to..." Defending myself against being accused of active lurking. I'm not providing evidence of this.

Content.

"I want evidence for diverting attention away..." Suggesting you're making things up. I notice that you have completely avoided this question too.

Content.

Talking about your reactions. I've given evidence for this already.

Content.

OMGUS vote. Your original attack on me was because you couldn't believe I didn't know you were town. Pretty sure I've given evidence of this.

Content.

Admission to tunnelling.

Also content.

Now read that post again and tell me which part of it did not have content or evidence? I'll ask again, where have I diverted attention from myself? Most people seemed to think you were town, attacking you would have brought me right out into the open if I was scum ESPECIALLY if you flipped town, so that suggestion makes no sense.

If the quote in your #504 is your evidence that I'm diverting attention from myself, that's a misrepresentation because at the time the thing you quoted happened, I would have had no reason to divert attention off myself since nobody was voting me and there was barely any suspicion on me.

So your basing your entire analyse on one reaction when we are late in to day two? So during your reread what else did you find suspicious?

Since I asked one little question, you have over reacted, misrepresented me on multiple occasions, voted me on OMGUS, outright lied about me not posting content, not answered questions asked of you. On top of that there's the possible sheeping of Ozzie and a That's more of a case on you than you have on me, don't knock reaction hunting until you've tried it.

Back tomorrow when I will read up on Effortless.

[Quilford]

VOTE: Haylen
Multiple elements of her posts read scummy and her profile overall fits that of scum-IC.

[Quilford]

And here's why!

Vote Ozzie72

Not a random vote.

My vote wasn't OMGUS, actually. It was because I can't stand numbers :P You're numbers were more difficult to type than any of the others.

Contradiction.

Town motivation

due to trying to actually scumhunt and get us out of the RVS early.

Aha! That reminds me! Questions.

1.

Is there any time coming up where we can expect you to not be very active?

I'm v/la at the Weekends but I will pop my head in.

2.

Have you familiarized yourself with Mafia Discussion and the Wiki?

Duh. Wiki admin.

3.

Have you read at least one completed game on site? I like to think so.[/i]

4.

What is your experience level? How many games have you played? Are there any complete newbies in the house? Does everyone know how the game in general works.

Played roughly 75 games, modded 14-ish now - the majority of which were newbie games.

Yep, Haylen is definitely trying to "actually scumhunt and get us out of the RVS early". These questions are pointless and a classic scum distraction tactic - if they weren't, I would have expected Haylen to explain why she asked them after everyone had answered.

I have a migraine. Give me until tomorrow, please. <3

Just so you know, lurking isn't a scumtell, it's anti-game true lurkers nearly always end up getting replaced. It's the active lurkers you have to go after meaning the people who look like they're providing content when they are not or people who post to avoid prods.

It's interesting that Haylen doesn't selfvote in this post considering she completely fits her description of 'active lurker' in this post -- which was made on August 10th, 130 non-mod posts into the game of which only nine were hers (if we break these nine posts down further, one was her confirming, one was her posting that she had a migraine after a two day absence, three were copy-and-pasted IC posts, and the rest, detailed above, contained nothing of worth).

Focusing on one person could let their partner slip away if they are scum or scum to slip away if they are town. So focusing on one player souly could let scum slip by unnoticed.

Tunnelling isn't a scumtell. The partner bit seems like a slip to me, town wouldn't think about trying to find the other scum they should just be happy with one in the beginning and finding the other through connections. I'm trying to say that Thomith seems to be being very specific about the 'their partner bit' almost as though he knows the person Effortless is voting for is scum.

It's not true that "town wouldn't think about trying to find the other scum". Of course they would; associative tells are great evidence and saying "X is scum with Y" is far more convincing than just saying "X is scum", especially in an open setup with a two-man scumteam. Moreover, later in the post Haylen pulls out this gem which contradicts what she's just said:

I'm not seeing distancing from Thomith and Effortless, unless one of them flips scum. (i'm not suggesting we lynch them).

That's the definition of trying to find the other scum!

Ozzie: Effortless couldn't have possibly voted for both people for what she voted them for, because she only has one vote. I don't consider her reasoning for voting Sal to Lizk scummy at all because the reasoning was well explained. Plus, she's being so vocal in her wishing Lizk was lynched that at the moment it's unlikely she is scum - scum wouldn't draw attention to themselves like that so early in the game.

Explained, schmexplained. Anyone can explain their reasoning well; it's whether or not the points have any merit.

I also take issue with the statement 'scum wouldn't draw attention to themselves like that so early in the game'. Scum wouldn't want to draw attention to themselves at

any time

, whether early game or not -- and scum don't purposely draw attention to themselves (unless they're WIFOMing). If they did, then why post? It would be defying your win condition.

Haylen, if I'm vocal in wanting you lynched, will you say it's unlikely I'm scum?

My original reason for this vote was just random but then I saw effortless' defense of Gen and found this quite suspicious and the sort of thing that a fellow mafia would do, so i'm going to stick with this vote for now

That's all? No original content? Just happy to go along with another player. No scumhunting or trying to generate discussion...

That's pretty rich, considering Haylen at this point has provided no original content, scumhunting, or attempts to generate discussion the whole game.

Trailing off ('...') leaves the reader to make their own minds up as to whether the player is scum or scummy town and effectively absolves responsibility.

Meta-gaming is fine.

Vote Gen_wolf

Does anyone think it's appropriate to L-1 someone this early?

Haylen continues to provide an abundance of content *cough* and fails to answer her own accusatory question.

I need to do a thorough re-read over the weekend and draw some proper conclusions on people.

We never see the results of this reread.

I don't usually have anything more than gut reads on day one in games, which isn't that uncommon.

The last phrase pre-empts any possible attack.

@Effortless I guess you''ve got me figured out.

If this is sarcasm it's not read very well over the internet. Due to not knowing, I'm going to take it as truth.

Vote Hazard

This is very opportunistic. If she didn't 'know', why not read over Hazard's posts and then come to a conclusion?

Vote Daybid

have it on a even playing field as it would be 2 townies vs 1 newbie scum.

How would a townie know this?

Also opportunistic; you would think that with a 'PhD in Newbie', Haylen would realise that both town and scum can fall prone to forgetting that roles are randomised.

I genuinely didn't realise it had been three days :/ Reading now.

Or it could mean that scum didn't kill. Which is more unlikely than the idea of a JK and a doc. Although, I don't think we should get into speculation of power roles right now, it could give scum hints.

@ Effortless - I couldn't make up my mind about whether or not Thomith was town. He seemed scummy, but I think Daybid was more scummy than he was hence I was voting him. But, I could see why he was lynched. If there was an obvious way he was a townie, I would have been all over it and he wouldn't have been lynched. Lizk is town though, we shouldn't lynch her today.

Gimme an hour and a half.

I'd like to know everyone's read on Gen_Wolf because something doesn't quite sit right with him.

Also if I was working with Saldyn, which I am not, dont you think its a little to early to be defending him?

There's this. Which is WIFOM in itself and also it didn't really need to be said.

There's probably other stuff too because gut reads don't come from no where, but I need to sleep right now.

These five posts take place over the course of

eleven days

and provide absolutely nothing of value.

It's probably about time I explained my reasons for suspecting Gen_Wolf. Basically, he looked like he was sheeping Ozzie and in my mind I thought he had done that with every read so I asked everybody else what they thought of him to see if they noticed it too (looks like Thor's the only one who's noticed). Either way, I misremembered Gen_Wolf sheeping every player in the game. That being said, I didn't like Gen's reaction to my asking people about him and the way he has been reacting since so

Vote Gen_Wolf

"I thought he was sheeping everyone in the game but actually he wasn't. ... ... ... I'm going to vote him because I don't like his reactions.

The best reads are a combination of gut and logic.

Don't see any logic there.

I still feel Haylen is scum, he was called out for active lurking which struck me as a bit odd at first but I didn't say anything

I wasn't active lurking. I was being inactive due to working 48 hrs a week on a combination of day and night shifts.

Don't see any mention of that here:

1.

Is there any time coming up where we can expect you to not be very active?

I'm v/la at the Weekends but I will pop my head in.

My indepth analyse came from your reactions.

Where is this indepth analysis?

The possible sheeping of Ozzie made me suspicious of you so I decided to re-read you. I went to look for other stuff, but your reaction to my probing was sufficient enough for me to think you're scummy.

Note Gen's original vote on me was OMGUS. This is still OMGUS. I find it odd that his suspicions aren't matching his voting pattern though. He seems to be yelling most about me when it's Thor he's voting for.

Basically, Haylen has no good reason (she never actually goes into detail about his reactions) for voting Gen, but resorts to pointing out how he is OMGUSing. Crazyyy.

Oh dear. I've been paying so much attention to Gen that I'd be at a complete loss over who is scum whatever he flips. Great. Note, don't completely tunnel on one person, it'll get you stuck in a rut.

Pre-empting the flip.

Ok. What have I said, that you have considered to be fluff?

Actually the definition of fluff is not providing content. That whole post you quoted was defending myself against what you had written, hence content.

No, the definition of fluff is "To make (something) appear fuller and softer, typically by shaking or brushing it: "I fluffed up the pillows"." Fluffing in the context of Mafia applies to inserting unnecessary content in a post in an effort to make it look like your posting more. Definitions aside, it's pretty clear what Gen is referring to and Haylen transforms it into a semantics argument, in which she basically admits to not scumhunting or generating discussion:

"I was inactive due to..." Defending myself against being accused of active lurking. I'm not providing evidence of this.

Content.

"I want evidence for diverting attention away..." Suggesting you're making things up. I notice that you have completely avoided this question too.

Content.

Talking about your reactions. I've given evidence for this already.

Content.

OMGUS vote. Your original attack on me was because you couldn't believe I didn't know you were town. Pretty sure I've given evidence of this.

Content.

Admission to tunnelling.

Also content.

Most people seemed to think you were town, attacking you would have brought me right out into the open if I was scum ESPECIALLY if you flipped town, so that suggestion makes no sense.

This contradicts with an earlier statement of Haylen's, which she uses in an attempt to build a case on Gen:

Also if I was working with Saldyn, which I am not, dont you think its a little to early to be defending him?

There's this. Which is WIFOM in itself and also it didn't really need to be said.

So your basing your entire analyse on one reaction when we are late in to day two? So during your reread what else did you find suspicious?

Since I asked one little question, you have over reacted, misrepresented me on multiple occasions, voted me on OMGUS, outright lied about me not posting content, not answered questions asked of you. On top of that there's the possible sheeping of Ozzie and a That's more of a case on you than you have on me, don't knock reaction hunting until you've tried it.

Back tomorrow when I will read up on Effortless.

Over-reacted? Seems to be part of his playstyle, and nobody likes being bandwagoned as town. "misrepresented me on multiple occasions"? You've only pointed out one, if I remember correctly. "outright lied about me not posting content"? Scummy hyperbole when the whole incident was a semantics argument anyways. "On top of that there's the possible sheeping of Ozzie and a" At no point in the game has Haylen produced any evidence to back up her Ozzie-sheeping claim, nor why it would make Gen scummy. "and a" what? It looks like something was hastily edited out here.

That's more of a case on you than you have on me, don't knock reaction hunting until you've tried it.

How about this case?

[Quilford]

I am one hundred percent sure that there is scum in Haylen / Gen_Wolf.

[racerman13]

Wow Quilford, that was one badass wall-o-post. Nice job.

I think Haylen is scum for not being able to keep her thoughts straight. Haylen keeps contradicting Haylen's self. Haylen seems really scummy, scummy enough for me to put a vote on Haylen. (no, I don't know Haylen's gender. Lol.)

Vote: Haylen

[Thor665]

Conveniently forgetting about the post where Gen explains his reasoning. A reasoning that I happen to agree with. Come on Thor, how do you miss something like this? It's right above the vote post!
Seriously, Thor has some explaining to do and until he does we should not lynch Gen_Wolf.

He explains his reasoning on Thomith - I never said he didn't.
What he doesn't explain is what happened to his effortless/lizk situation and that's what I'm calling out. Let me spell out the flow so you can see the issue I'm pointing at.

Wolf: The scummiest situation is Player A and Player B
Player B: Player A isn't doing what you say they're doing - I'm doing it.
Wolf: Oh, snap, right you are obvious scumspect Player B - let me re-read and I'll clarify what I meant.
-Meanwhile - Player X is taken up as the new bandwagon of choice, one of the primary leaders being Player B and Player A expresses general support of lynching Player X.
Wolf: Player X is very, very scummy. I suspect him and Player B. I will not clarify what happened to my suspect of Player A, I will not discuss why my new top suspect is neither of my old top suspects, I will not discuss why I am supporting a wagon my two top suspects are on about, but I will suddenly gear shift to the leading wagon of the day...also, tomorrow I will immediately vote for (via sheeping) ...Player A, the person I'm not even discussing right now...because...y'know...I STILL super suspect them, even though I'm not saying why I just dropped my case on them like a bad habit.

Seriously effortless - this is *really* clear and *really* obvious. Please point out any other confusions you have with my case, I will crush them like fragile eggs.

@Haylen - third time is the charm? Why is lizk town?

@Universe - why is the Wolf wagon disintegrating over here? This makes no sense.

[Lunitawolf]

I will post substantive comment later today but am quickly posting now before I forget:

@Mod and all: I will be V/LA this coming Thursday-Tuesday.

I hope to not be completely MIA during that time, but I have an intense travel schedule, so I am letting people know in case I'm not able to.

[Quilford]

I'll gladly rejoin the Gen wagon - him and Hayl are my top suspects, after all.

I feel this game is stagnating badly because of the replacements flying around and I think nothing would be more useful than a flip at the moment.

I'll get a ISO-wall on Thor up soon, hopefully.