Mini 1316 - Last Will Mafia IV (Over)

[kortul]

Macro, your Voided read changes were too convenient at the moment they were done. I don't say this is a 100% scumtell just because these read changes are so careless, that any competent scum would avoid them. Still they leave bad taste in the mouth, and discussing this farther is just WIFOM.

And you are asking me not to vote you and believe you are town, but ignore the question i asked you in a post 697.

[Alicewondering]

Alice, what do you mean by hold off? From your posts i got an impression that you finally believed the VT claim.

I do believe the VT claim, but I noticed a bunch of people voting Macro, and I don't think that he should be the lynch.

I'm just checking in. I will be back later today.

[Rhinox]

@Rhinox: Why did you not meta Debonair yourself?

I don't go out of my way to meta people. The value of meta isn't worth the time spent doing it. If I've personally played with someone I'll use what I can remember, or sometimes something will spark a recollection that I'll look back into my own games, or if someone posts links to be used as evidence in the current game then I'll consider that, but I just don't have the time to go look up and read through all the past games of everyone I play with.

[LlamaFluff]

Vote Count

Macrophage (4) - Voidedmafia, hiplop, Debonair Danny DiPietro, kortul
Debonair Danny DiPietro (4) - rhinox, Alicewondering, Macrophage
4nxi3ty (1) - Sleepless Assassin

Not Voting (4) - 4nxi3ty, DCLXVI, fishythefish

With 13 votes in play it takes 7 to lynch
Deadline is May 3rd, 6PM PST

[Sleepless Assassin]

Kort, 4n is my strongest scum read so that's where my vote is. As far as questions, nothing stands out that I don't already understand right now.

[DCLXVI]

Sorry I didn't post over the weekend, let's just say I blame the d3 beta for cutting into my mafia time.

Also, i do not agree with his view that "wagons on Theo and Macro were based mostly off of the wagon on Malee" - theo is equally (if not more) tainted the slot.

I think what I was trying to say was that malee tainted the theo slot, and then theo tainted it some more. Macro slot was then tainted by both of them. Therefor the wagon on theo started off as based on malee, and the macro wagon was based off of malee+theo.

As far as reads go, I'll do a full list later but I'm leaning town on Rhinox and Kortul and leaning scum on Macro, I'm not sure about DDD.

As far as macro goes, I was willing to give the him the benifit of doubt for his first change from thinking voided was scum to saying voided was town. Read changes happen. But when macro reversed that read again and is now calling voided scum that just appears very suspicious to me.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

1) I did not ignore that you had meta and to paint it as such is missing the point. I thought you were being useless while you were lazily parking your vote on nacho, and I think your uselessness was scummy. And I didn't even feel nacho was being useless anyways. I don't have a good meta on you, but I read through both examples posted by someone earlier on and I don't think your play early on in D1 matches either of the games linked. So I threw out the meta and made up my own mind. Why is it that I'm supposed to accept the meta reasoning of others (who I don't know the alignment of by the way) using it to supposedly clear you or nullify the points against you, but using the beliefs of dead players I know are town is junk?

And you miss my point that context is critical; if you did legitimately consider context and disagreed then fair enough but I’m not in your head to know that unless you make that clear (and yes I recall you making the point about my meta clear).

No I really can't be that snarky. If someone's ignoring my questions or not acknowledging that I just said something, I'm going to assume its because you don't want attention drawn to it and you're trying to sweep it under a rug. Especially when comments are cherry picked out later on from a post that was ignored, like that lyncher comment. So I'm gonna play devil's advocate - suggesting someone is a lyncher or jester is out of left field. OK. Left field is scummy? Why is this something scum would do?

(and what was odd was that you were so concerned with nacho and only nacho at the time, it was as if you had him as a lyncher target. It seemed unnatural for you to be so focused on nacho. That is what I was trynig to say with the lyncher comment. I was hoping the comment would actually get a response out of you then, not the next day to be used as case filler).

And it’s the way I play; in fact the last time I think I was accused of being “evasive” was by Percy-scum in Mini 845. Besides the fact that my play would’ve been stupidly obvious for a lyncher, the problematic part is that it allows you to look for something anti-town while not looking for scum.

~~

Everything else is just a rehash. For example, the whining about not having town reads if I do something scummy like using my absence of them to swing my vote willy-nilly call me on it then but the argument that I did something that could be used for nefarious purpose but is instead legitimately simply how I read the game is cart before the horse thinking. I really shouldn’t have to hold your hand why explaining why using the reads of dead town players is a bad idea; Nacho thought LS was scum, I guess we should resurrect LS and lynch him again and maybe he’ll flip town this time. Intention does not increase accuracy.

[4nxi3ty]

UNVOTE:
VOTE: DDD

Read DDD's ISO. It won't take long. There's nothing in there that looks like he's trying to catch scum - the closest he comes is with the Amished tell, when he wants the support of others. He's never really pushed anything.

DDD seems an ok choice, but no more than that.

???

I found DCL's point on a fishy/LS team interesting, but I don't think that this interaction comes from a scumpair

In light of someone posting about DDD-meta, I'm going to UNVOTE: DDD. I would support an LS wagon today. I would NOT support a Macro-lynch today
VOTE: LastSurvivor

knows macro is town? *shrug*

Lastsurvivor's 422 is a way bad post; he sells out for a lesser lynch than his prefered target

1) Rhinox completely ignores meta context in this point;
2) basically I hate every post of yours from the first pander to LS
3) and if I do get lynched or killed andwhen I flip green then you can’t hide from this nonsense.[/u]

rhinox>macro?

Also, what do people think of Rhinox's reasoning for voting Debonair?

I want to see what other people think before elaborating.

Oh yeah I forgot about that. I thought that avoiding questions was a bad reason to think Debonair was scum.

this made you want everyone to comment?

[Rhinox]

the problematic part is that it allows you to look for something anti-town while not looking for scum.

This doesn't make any sense.

Intention does not increase accuracy.

But this is true for the living as well as the dead, is it not?

You didn't voice a problem with me or others saying we're going to sheep nacho when he's alive and we don't know his alignment, but all of a sudden when he's dead and confirmed town we're supposed to ignore his opinion because he could be wrong?

Whats the difference between sheeping living nacho, and taking into consideration the opinion of dead nacho (and LS)?

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

the problematic part is that it allows you to look for something anti-town while not looking for scum.

This doesn't make any sense.

I think it does.

Intention does not increase accuracy.

But this is true for the living as well as the dead, is it not?

You didn't voice a problem with me or others saying we're going to sheep nacho when he's alive and we don't know his alignment, but all of a sudden when he's dead and confirmed town we're supposed to ignore his opinion because he could be wrong?

Whats the difference between sheeping living nacho, and taking into consideration the opinion of dead nacho (and LS)?

If you can show me where I said it was acceptable to sheep another player you might have an argument here; but I never said that, so you don't.

[Rhinox]

I think it does.

Whats the difference between looking for anti-town and looking for scum then? Are you saying you knew you were anti town?

If you can show me where I said it was acceptable to sheep another player you might have an argument here; but I never said that, so you don't.

So... you only speak out against something you don't find acceptable when it hurts your agenda?

[Voidedmafia]

And it’s the way I play; in fact the last time I think I was accused of being “evasive” was by Percy-scum in Mini 845. Besides the fact that my play would’ve been stupidly obvious for a lyncher, the problematic part is that it allows you to look for something anti-town while not looking for scum.

Remind me, how is that not actually looking for scum? If anything, it looks like a stepping stone to begin some scumhunting on ya.

Everything else is just a rehash. For example, the whining about not having town reads if I do something scummy like using my absence of them to swing my vote willy-nilly call me on it then but the argument that I did something that could be used for nefarious purpose but is instead legitimately simply how I read the game is cart before the horse thinking. I really shouldn’t have to hold your hand why explaining why using the reads of dead town players is a bad idea; Nacho thought LS was scum, I guess we should resurrect LS and lynch him again and maybe he’ll flip town this time. Intention does not increase accuracy.

Rhonix brings up a good point about this, and how you treat the opinions of those confirmed but gone worries me. By your logic, to take a hypothetical, even if you manage to pinpoint exactly who the scumteam is, as soon as you're dead and flipped town (obviously this wouldn't really be an effective example if you were scum) we should just forget about you even though you have tons of evidence that nails the scumteam.

Bringing it back to here (and sorry if I'm rehashing anything, Rhinox), so what if Nacho was wrong about LS? Intention may not equal accuracy, but that doesn't mean that what supported the evidence should be buried and never used. It's a waste of information that could actually be helpful.

[kortul]

I'm going to hold off on a Macro vote at least for today.

Alice, what do you mean by hold off? From your posts i got an impression that you finally believed the VT claim.

I do believe the VT claim, but I noticed a bunch of people voting Macro, and I don't think that he should be the lynch.

You found an obscure way to say so, my interpretation wasn't even close.

As for the Rhynox-DDD argument about taking into consideration the opinions of the dead players, i have a middle view. Their cases and opinions may be, and in some cases should be used as a starting point during the beginning of the next day, but the more the game progresses the more outdated those opinions are. It is like a snapshot of an opinion, good as long as we are close to the moment when it was taken.

[Macrophage]

@Kortul: How were they convenient? And don't you think the solution should be that I'm neither competent nor incompetent scum? In answer:

@Sleepless: I really don't see myself joining a 4n wagon unless something drastic happens.

@DCL: Do you have your own thoughts on why it's suspicious or are you just copying everyone else? (The latter is ok btw)

@4n: Well when no one responded I didn't think it was important to push, but I would have liked to know if anyone agreed with me before saying what I thought.

@Debonair: Would you want people to sheep you here?

[Macrophage]

Sorry, I forgot to answer. I don't know what I could do to better understand them, and I thought they were quite obviously not good reasons to suspect someone...

[DCLXVI]

@DCL: Do you have your own thoughts on why it's suspicious or are you just copying everyone else? (The latter is ok btw)

Well, there is only one reason for your read switch to be suspicious.

[Alicewondering]

SA, so your scumread on DCL is due to his predecessor? What do you think of DCL's play?

2) Yes, I will sometimes ignore things if I don’t think they’re worth my time; I had no interest in addressing points about Nacho because all I could do was restate the facts as I saw them because when nothing changes there’s nothing new to present.

Okay, but most of your D1 posting was all about Nacho. You decided to ignore everyone else and push a lynch that wasn't going to happen? The biggest problem I have is that you pick someone to call scummy and push them on one point. It doesn't show an interest in evaluating and reevaluating reads. It shows an interest in getting someone lynched regardless of alignment.

Macro, your Voided read changes were too convenient at the moment they were done. I don't say this is a 100% scumtell just because these read changes are so careless, that any competent scum would avoid them. Still they leave bad taste in the mouth, and discussing this farther is just WIFOM.

And you are asking me not to vote you and believe you are town, but ignore the question i asked you in a post 697.

Kortul, what do you think about the possibility of a replacement replacing in and skimming the game quickly to form quick reads. Do you not think a quick read change would make sense in this case?

[Voidedmafia]

@DCL: Do you have your own thoughts on why it's suspicious or are you just copying everyone else? (The latter is ok btw)

Well, there is only one reason for your read switch to be suspicious.

And that is...?

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

Whats the difference between looking for anti-town and looking for scum then? Are you saying you knew you were anti town?

A lyncher was the anti-town entity in question, obviously.

So... you only speak out against something you don't find acceptable when it hurts your agenda?

No, but I didn't see anyone blatently sheeping Nacho or anyone else at that point; there's a difference between sheeping, where you think or know someone is town and just follow them regardless of what they say and being persuaded by someone's arguments.

[kortul]

Kortul, what do you think about the possibility of a replacement replacing in and skimming the game quickly to form quick reads. Do you not think a quick read change would make sense in this case?

His own explanation was different.

@Kortul: How were they convenient? And don't you think the solution should be that I'm neither competent nor incompetent scum?

First one was when you were at L-1 and claiming, so it could be done to lessen the pressure. Second one was at the beginning of Day 2, with Voided already voting you, so maintaining townread on him no longer needed. So if you are scum those changes were convenient for you. I won't speculate farther, since discussion can go forever with actually leading anywhere. And yes, i can see the scenario where you are town suffering from a mess from predecessors, and your read changes have logical town explanations, but the reasons you said are different so far, and only your farther actions can tilt the scales of my read in other direction (or someone will become more scummy).

[LlamaFluff]

hiplop has not responded to their prod as is being replaced

[hiplop]

LLAMA i'm here!

SO SORRY, was in the hospital. better now.

going to catch up

[hiplop]

Guys, macro pretty much claimed scum. He claimed a PR to stay alive ffs, then WIFOM'd the shit out of you.

It's very fucking clear, and he needs to die. His reads change constantly to fit his need, its not fucking townie

[Fishythefish]

This is prod avoidance. In fact, I'm

V/LA until Monday

I might manage to post before then, but quite possibly not. From next week, I'll have good access. Sorry again.

[Macrophage]

Does anyone actually have any basis for thinking my read changes were convenient/scummy/whatever? (Except for me attempting to buddy voided into changing his read of me, because that's just stupid. I even joked about it... [refrains from swearing]) Answers from DCL, hiplop and kortul are needed.

Really, the pushing on me from DCL, Debonair, Kortul, hiplop and voided are what I'd expect from scum- using my predecessors' stuff aginst me while also pulling out stuff about me that's magically scummy to keep me as a target. Well except for Debonair. He's a special case, but he can go in the scumpile too. The problem though, is I really think only two of them can be scum. Three scum are not going to all illogically push one player (well I guess it's possible, but I don't think so). So there are likely three townies that are likely going to keep wanting to lynch me throughout. DCL maybe no and kortul could be night-killed, but they'd be the only ones that would not be 90% likely to tunnel on me for at least the next few days and they could even be the scum here.

@Kortul/hiplop/voided/debonair/DCL: Are you likely to continue seeing what I post as scummy or do you think you could come to see me as town? If you're town, please answer this question seriously. I understand what it's like to think someone scum and want to get rid of them for a clearer read of the game regardless of their alignment.

I honestly am thinking suggesting that I just be lynched, because no one is taking my reads seriously (defying the purpose of creating this alt in the first place). It's all like "Who cares if Voided is actually scummy or not? Macrophage saying he is is just not town!" And I've recently come to realise that no matter how obvtown I think I am, if it looks like I'll be lynched at some point in the game, then I will be unless I'm a PR. I'm getting really frustrated by this game and don't want to delay my lynch if it's inevitable.

Sorry about my rant, but please do answer any questions I've asked directed at you.