NY 160B - Welcome to Castle Zar - TIME FOR FIREWORKS!

[Tammy]

VOTE: empire

HAPPY BIRTHDAY EMPIRE!!!

I got a nice shiny wagon just for you.

[Tammy]

Prod-dodging. I will get to this after I submit final grades for this semester. Maybe tonight...definitely tomorrow.

[Tammy]

empire is town! And if by some chance I'm wrong it will be apparent soon but I really doubt im wrong. Though I town read him from his first post, then got somewhat suspicious, but knew I'd get yelled at if I was wrong about that :p. but yeah he's town.

Archangel is weird. I don't necessarily agree with empire on his town read of archangel but that's mainly because of her passivity rubs me the wrong way, most specifically her refusal to give any of her own thoughts. Especially when they post the same exact question in more than one game. I find her complaints about there not being any scum hunting, but no proactivity to actually do anything herself as off especially after claiming to have experience as both alignments. (there is something that makes me lean town here but I can't put my finger on it and wouldn't at all be upset at a VIG shot here)

I'm reading johhog as town. Partially be ause of his reasoning for voting empire, partially because he sounds the same as he did in rocky, and partially because I sympathisize with his frustration with mehdi. I have no clue why baby spice is coming to mehdi's rescue over this ordeal when the fact is he is claiming that one of the reasons he finds johhog suspicious is because he didn't answer a question that he hadn't been here to be able to answer or ignore. And I'm having trouble seeing mehdi as town here right now myself. And it's two fold. So, mehdi originally voted empire for thinking he was scummy for a meta reason for not giving a reason for why he voted nobody special in the first place in Post 44. He then later unvoted for another "apathy" meta reason, which whatever, but then immediately started scumhunting the wagon he was on.

So, when mehdi had his own reasons for being on empires wagon it was fine, but when he decided to jump off, any other reason to be on empire's wagon had to be scummy. *shakes head*. Quite frankly johhogs reason for voting empire was one of the least scummy actually. He didn't in any universe say that empire was going for a quick lynch...he said he was going after an easy target. Which is 100% an easy scum tell. Scum often like to go after easy targets, and it made perfect sense with his follow up question if empire had ever played with nobody special before. I don't agree with johhog that it's the case with empire as I do think that nobody special was awkward in a way that would remind empire of their experience as scu together. (and kingmaker it's not that it's an exact correlation but that the sense of awkwardness feels similar.).

Oh and johhog, Post 31 doesn't come from empire!scum pretty sure.

Mehdi, I figured that an unexplained initial vote would have more of an impact.

You'll be happy to know that a large number of players on this site view such an action as inherently scummy.

However, I still think Konowa is scummier than you are.

This is stupid and you know this. You're trying to tell someone they should act with how others would perceive hi as scummy in mind. And the fact is, it's not scummy to vote someone without reasoning, and it's not perceived as such. It can be a really great tool at reading people. What are you trying to accomplish here?

Also, NS what are you trying to prove in Post 74 ?

Posting this as a prod dodge, I will try to post tonight though.

Unvote

Why did you unvote and not vote anyone else?

I feel a little better about kingmaker for actually checking that game that was referenced though.

Okay...empire is holy fuck town, of you've read this far and are still voting him with conviction. You get to explain why. Also, johhog is town, so anyone voting him can put explanations in the box.

Decentish town reads on snowstorm ..oh hey I just looked and that's all I feel good about.

(also, please forgive me if I misread something right now...I'm on pain medication. I don't think I'm disoriented anymore, but there's still that possibility.)

Town reading: empire, johhog; semi-townreading: snowstorm.

Totally would not mind a vig of archangel and am slightly town reading vi because of his comments on it,

Oh and VOTE: mehdi

[Tammy]

You shouldn't have any way to analyze my post. It was as neutral as it comes. I planned that post...as long as the game started on the day it did before I got my role pm.

But what I have a problem with mehdi is you scum reading a wagon that you were on. Correct me if I'm wrong. Your vote on empire was for a serious reason? And then you started scum reading his wagon. That reads really off to me. You're saying, I voted him for a valid reason (and for me actually was a horrible reason) but then scum read his wagon? And chose actually someone who had a valid reason to scum read? You are going to have to read that slowly to,me because your reasoning sounds like crap.

[Tammy]

And as for I voted emp that doesn't really change my mind on it. The idea that if I'm voting someone all the other votes on him must be town is dumb. I think I was wrong on emp, so I swapped and looked at the wagon.

I just don't follow medhi. You thought you had a good reason for voting empire? Correct? Then you decided you didn't...so you started scum reading the wagon before the people voting before you. It just doesn't make sense to me that you would decide to unvote from a wagon and go oh this person was the scummiest person

on the wagon I was just voting on

. And why Johhog, when he actually had the best reason of anyone on that wagon?

[Tammy]

Wait, so you're saying, you voting him because he didn't give a bunch of reasons or wall for a vote on like page two was not scummy, but then when you changed your mind, you decided to scum read a wagon of people of people who voted before you and didn't have a chance to re-evaluate their stance even though as I said, Johhog's reasoning was actually more valid that yours?

What about Johhog's reasoning sucks? I think he's wrong, for instance, but I think his reasoning is solid. For instance, look back at marketplace, who did MoI read as scum in his first post? Each of them were semi-easy targets. It is pretty common for scum to go after easy targets first, so it makes complete sense for someone to wonder if someone is going after NS (an easy target) as scum. And an easy target really has nothing to do with quick lynching so I don't know why you're confusing the issue.

Also, I have a real problem with you not just admitting that part of your reason for voting johhog was bs. the fact is he wasn't ignoring you and didn't post after post 35, for which you partially voted him. There's no reason for you to accept that that you misstepped there. And why you won't is really odd.

[Tammy]

Archangel is weird. I don't necessarily agree with empire on his town read of archangel but that's mainly because of her passivity rubs me the wrong way, most specifically her refusal to give any of her own thoughts. Especially when they post the same exact question in more than one game. I find her complaints about there not being any scum hunting, but no proactivity to actually do anything herself as off especially after claiming to have experience as both alignments. (there is something that makes me lean town here but I can't put my finger on it and wouldn't at all be upset at a VIG shot here)

Totally would not mind a vig of archangel and am slightly town reading vi because of his comments on it,

Don't call me weird. I already feel alien here.. and am not rushing to vote or suspect someone without understanding anyone and to understand someone i need to know them and i haven't got crossed my ways with all the 15 players yet. so i think you need to re-think about me be different here is the fact that i am new here. and you're being judgmental.

Yes, i am experienced that is only for you to know that i am not noob in the game that doesn't mean i am not putting any effort in scum hunting.
TBH, I did asked a question to everyone, I don't see anyone actually answered that which makes me keep an eye on everyone. And how doesn't it is not looking like that i am not scum hunting. If you're townie what's stopping you to answer that question?

I wasn't calling you personally weird, and I'm sorry you took that as an insult. (I actually like weird people and consider myself somewhat weird anyway, so that wouldn't be an insult from me at all.). Your play is weird, which should be obvious as I discussed what about your play was bugging me in the entire paragraph.

You say that you're experienced but the way you're going about things don't really make sense with being experienced. Perhaps at your forum you do things differently, but you need to figure out a way to become acclimated to the style of play here.

For instance, your assertion that vi and I are trying to frame you for something makes no sense whatsoever. If we were buddies, and we're working together, and wanted you dead, we'd just kill you. Several people have commented on and criticized your play, and you are dismissing that. You are a detriment to town with the way your playing right now, and therefore I wouldn't mind if you were VIG shot. That is not meant to be an insult, and I don't have problems playing with and helping new people, but you don't seem like you want help or want to really work with us or how the game is played here. If you are town, please read a game preferably in the newbie queue as there are people there who will be answering questions that you probably have or making clear what are some things you don't seem to understand about what to expect here. This way you'll be more helpful to town overall.

[Tammy]

What was the question you asked everyone?

next time, either name or quote to ask question becuase otherwise it ll be hard to see who your question directs too.
It was general question for everyone who they currently think most scummiest person in living.

For instance...you can get a good idea for the answer to this question by looking at the vote counts as people re generally voting the person they think is scummy. The question you asked is bad for a couple of reasons and isn't going to really get you answers. One it looks like you're trying o look busy when you're not really being proactive. Second this isn't going to be met favorably because asking this of everyone looks like you're trying to figure out who it's okay to suspect because it's not you voicing any of your thoughts.

[Tammy]

Add the word a between Vi and vig. And yes I think the fact he's pushing on it is bad since so far it just seems like complaining about someone annoying (if it was someone really scummy then why is Vi not voting her).

AA the majority of the reads are summarized in one word null, so they don't really help at all. If you're commenting on different parts being willing to actually lean towards town or scum helps.

Tammy you arguing the questioning is the exact same thing I argued with joh. Read the argument between me and joh again and if it still doesn't make sense then ask me, but your last argument is nearly identical to what joh was arguing.

Currently think rofl is town too, just because speculation on someone flipping scum isn't really worth pushing on when I wouldn't flip scum.

P-edit: You realize all your scum reads are centered on me bad while joh good?

Yes, mehdi I know. I understand fine, it's you who are refusing to accept the argument against what you did and this is where I see you as scummier. You are distorting johhogs reasoning for the vote in the first place. He thinks it's scummy to go after an easy target. You are somehow now arguing something about quick lynches when that's not the same thing at all. I even told you to look back to marketplace and MoI's first post to see him pointing out scummy things done by essentially easy targets.

Johhogs reasoning for voting empire was the towniest reason there was, and your refusal to accept that you're misunderstanding something is really scummy. It's like in black flag when you and regfan got in the debate over buddying and you refused to accept the widely accepted meaning for buddying and opted for your own defintion instead. You're not also recognizing that it was scummy of you to make it sem like johhog ignored your question when he hadn't been back in the thread. Usually when town are presented with reasons for why their logic is faulty or they are calling something one thing that it isn't, town will acknowledge that. Scum are usually the ones that don't want to admit theyre wrong about an interpretation, and that is what I'm seeing here. You are too busy going "I'm right" instead of listening to what others are saying.

[Tammy]

I never said she attacked Vi. It was only a few posts ago so are my posts hard to read? You pushed me for taking the fact Vi pushed AA as scummy, but it's ok for her to get a town read on Vi for the same thing and seriously push for AA being vig shot.

See this is a really good example of my problem with you this game. You're continuing to distort. I never "seriously pushed for AA to be VIG shot.". I said I wouldn't mind if she was, and I wouldn't, as I find her a detriment to town. I don't even know if there is a VIG in this game, and my statement is similar to when I say I won't cry over the mislynch of someone I think is town but would be harmful to town come end game.

Your attempt to make something seem bigger than it is is really scummy mehdi.

[Tammy]

And you know mehdi I'm just not following you NOT understanding johhogs vote on empire and reasoning. I'm not getting you scrambling around and distorting it to call it a quicklynch or that going after an easy target isn't what a lot of scum do. In 463, your scum team went after piggy first thing. Why was that? Piggy is an easy target, easy to get a mislynch out of. You even in the mafia qt say that you guys can get mislynches out of piggy/absta/voided, so you know the concept. You know that scum will go after an easy target early if they can, because you have been on a scum team that has done that exact thing.

So, why do you find it suspicious for johhog to be suspicious of something that is well documented and a common practice for scum?

[Tammy]

UNVOTE:

Not interested in a hammer yet. It's only Tuesday.

[Tammy]

Mehdi - I get that you think you have to ask an incessant amount of questions, but this one is common sense.

[Tammy]

Well then ask the question you want to know.

It's Tuesday, deadlines not until Friday and I don't want it cut short especially when there are several people who really haven't made much of an impression/given meh contribution and need to contribute more. I'm really not interested in going into day two with the bulk of the information for today being your misunderstanding of the johhog vote issue and discussion about that and the AA vigbait issue. No matter what your alignment is, it's not fruitful discussion come tomorrow. I want to reread through some things and have questions I want to ask people also, so I'd rather the day not end soon. I also need to answer empires questions and want his feedback on a couple of things.

Mehdi - you finally gave an answer for why to vote him for his unanswered question that makes sense. I was waiting for you to say something along those lines to clear that up. Why did it take you so long to give that reasoning, when it was clear people thought you were implying he was ignoring you?

Also easy target does not mean quick lynch or someone you think you can get lynched easily. It means someone who is easy to go after, and while you may hope to get them lynched quickly that doesn't necessarily happen. For instance piggy is super easy to go after because she posts rather awkwardly and does things you would expect scum to do when she's town. But in 463, it took y'all three days to get that mislynch and in the end it was a town driven mislynch. It's often hard when your scum to figure out what to go after, so people like NS, Piggy, etc, who typically behave suspicious anyway give a good place for scum to find something to push that looks real be ause they'll typically be looking for scummy behavior, not motivations, and they get to look active in the process.

Like snowstorm said, these easy targets can be scum, but when people jump on someone who is known for being an easy target, it's good to suss out if it's a town motivated attack or just opportunistic. Thats why johhogs question looked town motivated and was one of the best reasons for the vote on e,pore as far as I was concerned. That was backed up by the question just a few minutes later if empire had ever played with NS before. It looks like he thought about it, and then realized it was possible what he was accusing him of might not stand.

[Tammy]

This is probably the first time I've ever found Tammy boring.

[Tammy]

Since to me it made sense the first few times I argued it with him. Pretty sure I said repeated myself around then, so if you want me to say it in a clear way ask specifically about it when I've answered before.

Oh and unlike N/sixty I helped defend piggy for awhile (I just wasn't going to say no when JT had a strong case on them that made it really easy to just add in). Anyways the better connection for joh is his current play as compared to micro 64. Game's only two short pages long and shouldn't take more then 5 minutes to read.

And that was the question. I know you didn't feel a need to slow down the earlier lynches in Black Flag much so I was curious why it occurred now.

Is that a scum game of johhog? I've played with him before when he was town and I was scum on rocky, and that's the type of meta I take more seriously anyway.

In black flag we were pretty convinced sixty were scum right off the bat, and after their scum hammer claim there was no purpose to waiting around, but we had a lot to gain from getting the lynch over quickly when we all knew they were scum. I mean if you remember nothing else got done day two and the longer we would have waited the more frustrating it would have been.

[Tammy]

Yes, but if you will look both empire and I started the day saying we wanted it to be short. Regfan did his case work up and was so convinced as were a couple of other people that there wasn't going to be anything else. You might note that at the end of the day I complained about the length and insisted the next day take more time.

Not really sure what relevance this has. Day one is the only day with the entire playlist. And while I don't like overlong day ones, I don't like day ones that are too short either. There's more work to do right now, so I don't want it ending yet.

Pedit: to mehdi.

[Tammy]

*empire and I didn't want it to be short. Don't mind me I just woke up from a nap not too long ago.

[Tammy]

johhhog

since you thought that empires vote on NS was scum motivated, what did you think of konowa's and baby spice' votes on NS? Also, what is your read on nobody special?

nobody special

- do you still think konowa is scum? What other scum reads do you have?

[Tammy]

What was the question you asked everyone?

next time, either name or quote to ask question becuase otherwise it ll be hard to see who your question directs too.
It was general question for everyone who they currently think most scummiest person in living.

For instance...you can get a good idea for the answer to this question by looking at the vote counts as people re generally voting the person they think is scummy. The question you asked is bad for a couple of reasons and isn't going to really get you answers. One it looks like you're trying o look busy when you're not really being proactive. Second this isn't going to be met favorably because asking this of everyone looks like you're trying to figure out who it's okay to suspect because it's not you voicing any of your thoughts.

How do even make statementsl ike i am not being proactive, you don't even know what my suspects and views about each one properly.
This is Mafia, a place i can ask, accuse, argue with players around me. so, don't tell me what not to do. Being a townie I would expect my town to find me and its important to act as team. you can't on your win get the town win. so my attempt was to see how many people have common opinion it is an effort to see who the most scummy but it doesn't change what my opinion one each one based on observation, but it is not always safe depend on self opinons becuase the rest town may have information than i do and i am trying to get what i need to identifiy mafia.

You have now refuted information given to you and reacted to the one vote on you in a horrible way that does nothing for town.

Here is a recently completed newbie game. http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=23875

Please read it. For all our sakes. Kthnxbai.

[Tammy]

Mehdi - your partner in 463 also gave that as a reason for why you were town when you weren't.

If you thought I was worried about a short day because I was unsure of my reads, why would you want to get me to out that, especially if you have a town read on me. You know, because you've played with me, that I talk about my reads when I have them. There is a virtue in waiting to see how some things develop, and really beyond your first question you needling on the way I treated days in 463 vs my statement here does seem like putting too much attention on really minor and inconsequential things.

What is your read on baby spice by the way?

[Tammy]

What is your read on baby spice by the way?

Town since I don't see a benefit to continuing to push joh as scum or have me as a strong town read.

Okay, so let's go with the hypothesis your town. You've never heard of scum defending town before? Is that really the only thing giving you a town read on baby spice?

[Tammy]

Town (S to W) -> Empire, Baby, MoI, AA, Tammy, | SAD, snow, rofl, Deas, Joh
Null (most to least town leaning) - King, NS, Kon,
Scum - Vi

If you need reasons for a specific people ask, since otherwise it isn't needed to explain why for each. The line thingy just divides strong town reads from weak ones.

P-edit: Yes and I love to do it, but there really isn't a point to it here when she's already divided herself opinion wise from most people with just having joh as a scum read so it just makes her more in disagreement with everyone. That and when I've had 10 people suspect me I have a feeling she'd get attacked for trying to white knight later on if I did get lynched. And the first reason (having joh as scum) also applies for her town read.

See this kind of disconnect makes no sense to me mehdi. You say you, yourself, love to do it as scum, but you can't see the motivation for someone else to do it as scum? You defended piggy, right? Even though almost everyone was calling her scum? Didn't your hydra follow up with piggy's scum read on Thor too? I'd have to look it up but I'm pretty sure I remember reading In The scum qt you saying that you tend to white knight as scum, so if you are town here why aren't you a little suspicious over her behavior?

[Tammy]

Stealing time while resting my back

Mehdi2277 (6): SnowStorm, Vi, Johhog, Tammy, roflcopter, Ser Arthur Dayne

Joh, terribad vote and post with it. OMGUS with attitude. Insults (a personal pet peeve of mine), and strong focus on the weakest reason of Medhi's vote. But I've addresses this more earlier.

Tammy. Actually Tammy's #123 is the reason I wanted to do this.
I find it strange that Tammy calls Johog town for an action that is scummy. I find it hard to believe that she could actually miss the point being made by Mehdi, let alone question why I would point out a scummy action used as the basis for a vote on a player that appears town. Then she takes the cake for complaining about Medhi daring to scum hunt. Then calls OMGUSing, Johogs's vote, a good reason to vote.



Oh, and Tammy:

And the fact is, it's not scummy to vote someone without reasoning,

It is scummy. It's not nice to have a reason and not give it as it leaves the way for scum to vote without a reason then make something up later, but to actually vote without reason past the RVS is scummy.


i]

Okay so beyond this rather flaccid rundiwn of the mehdi wagon where you don't seem to actually come to any evaluations, what is p with your super duper laser focus on johhog? So, you say insults are a pet peeve, do you actually find that a scummy action or are you just pointing out what you don't like about johhog? You say his vote is terribad, but why is it?

I don't see how mehdi, and apparently you to, can't see the town motivation in johhogs vote and reasoning on empire. That you both seem to be willfully misinterpreting the issue and refusing to listen to the widely accepted definitions of things and are instead sticking to your thought up definitions makes no town sense to me. I see the scum sense though.

I also don't understand how you can't see my point. Mehdi voted empire for a scummy reason, or at least for a really bad and flimsy one, changed his mind and immediately started scum hunting the wagon he had just been on before really anyone had a chance to update their reads. He then picked the most townie vote on empire and calls it the scummiest. He then has not listened to why his interpretation is incorrect. I can't follow this thought process nor can I see the town motivation here.

Why is mehdi such a strong town read for you that you're working so hard for him?

And also, by the way, it is not scummy to vote without a reason. Any halfway competent person can give a reason for why they would vote before hand and ont need to make one up afterwards. It's got nothing to do with nice. This is mafia not the miss congeniality pageant, and voting without reason can garner some interesting reactions. But this is entering MD territory.

[Tammy]

Mehdi's at l-2.

I know not all white knights are created equal but it makes no sense for you not to be a little suspicious. Do you have a history of being susceptible to white knighting or being buddied as town?

Arhtur - lol...I'm still a little bitter about you getting quicklynched after I was night killed by the way.

[Tammy]

He then picked the most townie vote on empire and calls it the scummiest. He then has not listened to why his interpretation is incorrect.

Can you really not see how this is just purely loaded? Since I said his vote was worst maybe I completely with the assertion and whether you think someone's post looks town doesn't mean I will think that. Similar to how I stayed with my idea on it you stayed with your idea on it for most of the time (and still are since you're calling it the best vote).

It's not loaded. You have multiple times demonstrated that you either don't understand or are refusing to understand what threasoning for the vote was. Until you do that we can't have a reasonakbe conversation so you might as well not reply to me about this anymore. Ive explained to you why your reasoning was a misinterpretation and you just refuse to listen. It's like you insisting to farafan that buddying was when two people had votes next teach other when that's not what buddying is.

[Tammy]

@Tammy:

What are your thoughts on the players who have posted since your #138 (specifically Arthur, MoI, roflcopter, and DV)?

Arthurs town. He's not doing any of the over aggressive stuff he does when scum (or bad town where I tend to go after him :p ). He seems pretty relaxed and not self conscious. All in all he's fitting his town self pretty well.

MoI - I haven't seen enough to be able to get a read on him, and wanting to see more contribution from him is one reason I didn't want the day to end right now.

Leaning town on rofl - rofl's kind of hard to read because he works on gut, but from what i remember from when we were scum partners in Kanyes game was that he doesn't think he's that good as scum and doesn't necessarily like it. He was really aggressive and pushed weak things then which doesn't fit him here really.

DV - need to see more from DV too. Post 204 looks fairly townish though.

[Tammy]

Oh but rofl's giving a bunch of townreads looks good to me.

[Tammy]

if mehdi flips town i am suspicious of tammy for having her vote off everything with approaching deadline and disappearing from the discussion and moi for offering now viable alternative with impending deadline and ignoring the ongoing lynch

there now mehdi can die happy i answered his question

lynch him

This is stupid. I made it very clear why I took my vote off last night as I wanted more information and didn't want the day to end yesterday. You should be able to tell from my discussion with mehdi yesterday that I was still very suspicious of him. How did I disappear from the discussion? I wasn't here today and that's it. I had family stuff to tend to, deadlines not for two days, and I knew I'd be back. You didn't need me here this afternoon.

I am, however, a bit concerned about moi. He's left his vote on empire this entire time when its really apparent that empire is town and has come up with really lame ways to attack him and hasn't really gone after him. Wanting moi to post more and seeing how he interacted with this wagon was one of the reasons I took my vote off, as I said last night.

[Tammy]

MoI - I haven't seen enough to be able to get a read on him, and wanting to see more contribution from him is one reason I didn't want the day to end right now.

Aside from me not SAD / Mehdi style spamming the thread do my posts not have enough content for you to make any sort of alignment judgement?

Nope! You haven't really commented on the mehdi wagon in a meaningful way and have left your vote on empire but not really pushing him while at the same time arguing with him for what seems like arguing just for the sake of it. I'm suspicious of you, hence wanting to see more contribution.

[Tammy]

So I'm not a double voter

And what was the intent of that then since I don't think I'd ever have fully believed it (plus I prefer to act town after being really hammered for fun as scum)?

rofl if you're referring to NS's hammer intent for

if

I'm not lynched

sure I'm vanilla.

Oh, this was the claim?? The way in which it was presented is completely unacceptable by Lord Yates' standards. I mean, ugh, it's preceded by an IF. (And for some reason I thought you were talking about previous games).

Anyway, since this is finally out of the way, where's that hammer?

LoL

[Tammy]

Baby spice, kingmaker, moi = people who need a much closer look tomorrow.

Also it's weird that snowstorm never made a comment on kingmaker, especially with how lacking kingmakers play has been. This is somewhat worrisome.

[Tammy]

I'm actually a little bit annoyed that you did end the day with another day and a half to go. You let several people get by with meh contributions. There really as no reason not to wait to do it tomorrow.

[Tammy]

Okay so beyond this rather flaccid rundiwn of the mehdi wagon where you don't seem to actually come to any evaluations, what is p with your super duper laser focus on johhog? So, you say insults are a pet peeve, do you actually find that a scummy action or are you just pointing out what you don't like about johhog? You say his vote is terribad, but why is it?

Oh nice one, delete the evaluations and claim I didn't make any. Ok, Vi and Snowstorms' evaluations are "soft" perhaps, but there. Then insult my post. I do find casual insults scummy. Johhog's ranting ones in #87 is at least genuine.
Continuously insulting someone to try and upset them and degenerate an discussion into an insult match though, regardless is really really scummy. Especially if you've looked at my past games. Hint, it's why there's a year long gap in me playing.
Not saying that that is what you're doing but I don't remember you insulting many other people.

I've said why Johhog's vote is terribad a few times now. #109, #186, #276

I did not insult you. Your post read more as a summary and busy work.

Never mind on the johhog vote...wires crossed. I was referring to johhogs empire vote and didn't make that clear.

I don't see how mehdi, and apparently you to, can't see the town motivation in johhogs vote and reasoning on empire. That you both seem to be willfully misinterpreting the issue and refusing to listen to the widely accepted definitions of things and are instead sticking to your thought up definitions makes no town sense to me. I see the scum sense though.

I have no understanding of what you are getting at. Have I even mentioned Johhog's vote on Empire? I was saving that for day 2 since we looked like getting a flip from someone on that Empire wagon. But.
I will mention Johhog's vote on that wagon now. It sucked. It was bad. It was predicated on Empire knowing how NS played. If NS had not made the "Nothing to fear" comment, then Empire's vote would have been bad and Johhog reasonable. But NS' comment is suspicious. It could easily have been scum coaching scum.
Yes NS is an "easy target" and normally opportunistic votes on them are bad, but as someone said sometimes the easy targets are actually scum. Not that I'm saying NS is scum. Too early to tell with him.

In essence, running up a wagon on somebody because they voted an "easy target" falls into that voting an easy target meme itself.

This puts SAD, MoI, and Medhi in a bad light too btw.

Well johhogs empire vote was rather important as it was the basis for which mehdi voted johhog. At least with you saying it was bad, you are discussing the situation in the same light as everyone else. And true it was predicated on empire knowing that and if there was no follow up maybe it would be really bad, but johhog asked two follow up questions of empire - if he had ever played with ns and if he knew he was an easy target.

Does AA coming back town change your view of nobody specials comment to him. What are your thoughts on nobody special?

I also don't understand how you can't see my point. Mehdi voted empire for a scummy reason, or at least for a really bad and flimsy one, changed his mind and immediately started scum hunting the wagon he had just been on before really anyone had a chance to update their reads. He then picked the most townie vote on empire and calls it the scummiest. He then has not listened to why his interpretation is incorrect. I can't follow this thought process nor can I see the town motivation here.

I can't see you're point. Granted Medhi's vote on Empire wasn't great. None of them were. But why is Medhi scummy for realizing that his vote was bad and changing it? Why is Johhog's vote the "most town", because it wasn't. It was the worst. Why was Medhi's actions there different from any of his other actions in this game, or others that he is playing/has played?

I don't think his interpretation was wrong, I think yours is. But then several of your interpretations are wrong Tammy

Mehdi wasn't scummy for realizing his vote was bad and changing it; I didn't like how he immediately scum read the wagon he was on just minutes before and before any of those other people had a chance to rethink empire like mehdi did. We'll just have to agree to disagree on johhogs vote, but why isn't MoI's the worst?

My main problem with mehdi's interpretation was that we weren't using the same definition for what we were arguing and therefore couldn't come to an understanding.

It's fine if some of my interpretations are wrong. It's bound to happen when you don't actually know anything. How do you know that my interpretations are wrong though? If you're just as uninformed as I am, you wouldn't *know* if I'm wrong or right.

Why is mehdi such a strong town read for you that you're working so hard for him?

And also, by the way, it is not scummy to vote without a reason. Any halfway competent person can give a reason for why they would vote before hand and ont need to make one up afterwards. It's got nothing to do with nice. This is mafia not the miss congeniality pageant, and voting without reason can garner some interesting reactions. But this is entering MD territory.

Answered in #489.

Please explain the towniness of voting without a reason. Note, not voting without giving a reason, but voting without a reason.

I'm not sure what the thread difference of that is. In any case, both ways, you could be gauging reactions, and that's town.

If you don't like votes without reasons, how come you never said anything about the votes on empire for no reason? SAD cots empire without A reason but then gave a reason after mehdi asked. But moi also vote empire without a reason. What is your read on moi?

[Tammy]

Lol. That is so funny Johhog.

Vote Johhog

Not only did you have the worst, most scummy vote on an obv town wagon that flipped town, you immediatly vote the person who pointed out how scummy your vote was the next day.

This reads fake.

[Tammy]

Rofl, how has Mehdi being town affected your read of me?

Also, to you and SAD, why MoI-scum? I remember thinking he was town when I was reading.

Why are you reading him as town? My problem with moi is, as I said, how he didn't say anything meaningful concerning the mehdi wagon. He asked rofl to tell him why he was scum without fluffy language and talked to Arthur about Arthur thinking he was obvscum, but he didn't offer up his own opinions on what was a major portion of the conversation yesterday. He left his vote on empire the entire day, and though he attacked empire somewhat he looked more to be arguing for the sake of keeping busy but not pushing anything.

[Tammy]

VOTE: kingmaker

[Tammy]

I wonder why no one didn't comment about 2 deaths. Am I missing something?

I'm wondering why you're not commenting on anything game relevant.

Empire - I dont remember right now what that was. I think you basically answered what I was wondering about your thoughts when you checked in after though.

[Tammy]

Prod dodge.

Will get o this game in a little bit but for now ~kittens~

[Tammy]

Proddodge, will post something tonight.

Who are your top two scum reads and why?

[Tammy]

nobody special

- what is your read on moi?

[Tammy]

baby spice

- who else besides johhog do you suspect and why? Also, I asked you before but I don't think you answered, what is your read on nobody special?

[Tammy]

But moi also vote empire without a reason. What is your read on moi?

I don't. Ever since this game I've either ignored, avoided, or outright buddied MoI regardless of relative alignments. He brings out the absolute worst in me and I really don't like it. In #276 I said that insults were a personal pet peeve of mine. That game, and MoI, are why.

And this makes it so that you are unable to give a read on moi?

[Tammy]

Baby, what's the difference between avoiding and ignoring?

Is this really the only question you had? What does this tell you about baby spices alignment?

[Tammy]

Sorry. I kept looking to see if the people I was waiting to hear from had checked in and if there was anything to add, but forgot to prod dodge.

I'm still waiting to see what moi brings today; I hope he's all right.

[Tammy]

nobody special

- what is your read on moi?

I have never been able to adequately read MoI -- partly because he intimidates me, with his knack for reading my alignment so very well (he's hardly ever wrong about me), and partly because I just can't.


So, null. Or something.

What does him being able to read you have to do with your ability to read him? so, you got over this paranoia then?

You never answerd how the question to baby spice helped with your read on her. What is your read on her btw?

[Tammy]

Gods.

Dgb - you've replaced into a slot that several are scum reading and did almost nothing yesterday and absolutely nothing today. On the off chance you are own, please stop flirting with johhog

he's too young for you

and town yourself...please. Waiting for my scum reads to actually post and do something today has been an exercise in boredom. Also, pretty sure Arthur's town so if you're reaction testing or whatever you're doing, please cough up what you learned or something.

Konowa - what's also odd is nobody specials avoidance of giving a read on moi. His reason for avoiding giving a read in Post 617 is laughably bad.

DV - the reasoning for rofl giving a scum read on you is not contrived, it makes sense. How come you're using snowstorm not commenting on the moi wagon as a scum tell of sorts, but had moi as a town read when he didn't comment on the mehdi wagon day one?

[Tammy]

MMMMmmmmmmmmmmm

It's interesting how Tammy interacts with so few players.... 90% Mehdi, the lynched guy.

Are you reading the game or Isos?

[Tammy]

I iso'd MoI - he's clearly town to me.

Also, explain that one cuz I'm .

[Tammy]

Oh yeah. I'm so fine with my vote where it is. So, dgb, read me again and tell me I'm "sketch" due to limited interactions, better yet read the game. I dare you. At least come up with something real to call me sketch on, flex your scum muscles a little.

So, you call me "sketch" based on lol limited interactions though I've interacted with everyone in the game, BUT you give moi and NS a townread when they actually *do* have limited interactions.

Why is arhtur defensive and how is that making him sketch?

From where I'm standing your reads list looks like a fabricated piece of $&:;.

[Tammy]

I iso'd MoI - he's clearly town to me.

Also, explain that one cuz I'm .

My town reads are never wrong.

Yeah, that doesn't really fly when I'm scum reading your slot. It might work when I think your town, but I don't. Bummer.

[Tammy]

Also, pretty sure there's an incorrect town read in here. http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 1#p4369001

So, yep, that excuse don't fly. Explain read. Thanks.

[Tammy]

While you're at it dgb, explain how ns is town too. That'd be awesome. Thanks.

[Tammy]

Also, pretty sure there's an incorrect town read in here. http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 1#p4369001

So, yep, that excuse don't fly. Explain read. Thanks.

That was on page 7.

That it was even there negates the "never" you used (also, it was there on page 23 though you note she could have been bussed). It shouldn't be too hard to just explain the read if it's real.

Hmm...I've been called a pit bull going after a scum read before, but never a chihuahua. Yo quiero taco bell? Your scum hunting is secondary to me right now. I'm more interested in my read on your slot, and I've been waiting this entire day phase for something from your slot.

I don't need to iso myself. I know I've interacted with most everyone, if not everyone. Yes, I interacted with the person lynched the most. One mehdi asks lots of questions, and two I was interested in actually reading the person I was scum reading. Don't see how that's problematic.

[Tammy]

Don't see how that's problematic.

Scum often avoid interacting with their buddies.

Okay, and which buddy did I avoid interacting with? I'll be waiting.

[Tammy]

Feel free to rephrase any question you might have more respectfully and I'll gladly answer. I don't need the attitude.

Stop stalling.

What are your reasons for townreading moi and nobody special?

[Tammy]

What?!? I make it clear, as does my vote, that I'm scum reading your slot. If you actually read my iso, you know I'm scum reading two people you call town. I ask you to explain those reads, not in a rude way mind you, and you basically refuse by claiming you are never wrong about town reads. That doesn't help. Not when I'm scum reading your slot, which I told you I was.

I'm sorry if you're having a bad day or something, but I haven't even been rude. I'm scum reading your slot and pushing you to try to solidify my read, and when it looks to me that you've just fabricated a list of reads, I'm going to push that.

[Tammy]

I've PM'd the mod for replacement and I'm not answering anymore.

.

Have a good night's sleep and come back to us in the morning. (then explain your town reads)

[Tammy]

Waiting on zach or nacho to do something. Will vote for either at this point.

[Tammy]

Oh empire I see where you're coming from on the snowstorm/kingmaker thing. My thing with snowstorm is that he's generally pretty hard to read and tends to be mislynch bait. I think I've only read him correctly early on a couple times and otherwise need some time to see how he develops and interacts with people and suspicion before I feel confident about my read on him.

[Tammy]

Oh empire I see where you're coming from on the snowstorm/kingmaker thing. My thing with snowstorm is that he's generally pretty hard to read and tends to be mislynch bait. I think I've only read him correctly early on a couple times and otherwise need some time to see how he develops and interacts with people and suspicion before I feel confident about my read on him.

Yeah, I get the same impression from Snow re: him possibly being ML bait which is one of the things that rung alarm bells to me when I read DV's case.

Actually, now that I think about it, here's another thing: I just read through your ISO and a lot of the rapid-fire, seemingly leading questions you ask Mehdi would seem to fall under DV's category of "attempting to elicit an incriminating a response." If that's the standard, why doesn't DV seem to consider applying it to you as well and focuses on Snow?

Another issue I have is that Kingmaker is another player that comes off like he's ML bait too. Certainly, a look at Zar's Mini Normal gives off that impression (he was really lurky/low content there).

Kingmaker does have a tendency to lurky/low content as either alignment, which is what snowstorm was talking about in Post 613 about his lackluster play. But in the game you linked, he seems more engaged in the game. Hmm...the last two times he was mafia at westeros, he was partnered with snowstorm which is why I was interested in snowstorms input on kingmaker, I'll see if I can make my way through the alts sometime today.

I can't answer the question about dv.

[Tammy]

Hey VIG, nice shot! or serial killer...

Oh no, baby spice wasn't white knighting mehdi at all...not one tiny bit.

Bleh...I have some reassessing to do.

Empire, I don't know that rofl would have actually investigated me though. And in that same post he voted moi and wrote "ayup" before it. He also at the end of day in Post 682 said he would switch to nacho but we needed to make a solemn promise to lynch moi the next day. I mean as much as I would like to take that as verification of me being town, I think the post could have just as easily pointed to a guilty on moi. Hrm. I don't know. I need to think.

I guess well see what zach does today.

[Tammy]

Tammy, why did you vote Kingmaker yesterday? Why him over MoI, Baby or NS?

I wouldn't have voted NS yesterday, or at least nt when I voted kingmaker, so I'm not sure why you're asking about him. I don't know what to do about NS, and am nowhere confident in my scum read on him to vote him. I find NS incredibly frustrating to read. He often looks suspicious even when he's town. (remember rocky horror?). In NY146 when I was trying to decide between moi and ns in lylo, ns told me that his site wide meta was to be low content/lurk as town but try harder as scum. But when we were partners in Kanyes game, he lurked hard there too. So, I'm pretty much at a loss.

As for moi, baby and kingmaker, they existed in the same pool of I have working scum reads on them they need more attention day two for me to help with my reads. Day two started with two votes on moi, and he is someone who's going to produce content no matter what, and i felt pretty good that id be able to get a better read on him from that content. Johhog voted baby spice and I was interacting with her. Voting kingmaker meant that there was pressure on each of the people I wanted pressured yesterday, and I was hoping a vote would get kingmakers attention.

As for wh I thought he was scum, I didn't like his day one play or his lack of anything tangible on day two. He is usually low content/lurky but he's usually a bit more engaged in the game. He didn't look like he was actually looking for scum, and his vote and reasoning for archangel was pretty bad. It looked to me like he, along with others, was trying to stay off the mehdi lynch/spread their votes out. Dgb's replace in didn't help at all; her attitude didn't make sense for any alignment, but it didn't make me think any better of the slot. I do wish I would have come back to the game on Thursday or before deadline because nacho's replacement in post looked pretty town, and I think I would have given him the benefit of the doubt after that post and moved my vote. There's a very good chance I would have followed him onto baby spice. (I say that now, confirmation bias and all, but nacho typically has good reads and as I didn't have baby as town, I might have done that. At leas thats what I would like to think I would have done, but eh.)

Also, to answer nacho's question in case anyone else was wondering too. Empire not only hates being scum but isn't really ballsy as scum, so its not very likely that empire!scum tells vi in Post 30 that he's doing it wrong, and essentially telling vi to follow his lead. I would expect him to be much more cautious in his dealings with vi if he were scum.

[Tammy]

Don't prod me. I'll post tonight.

[Tammy]

Okay, I lied. I got sucked into The Wire tonight, I'll post tomorrow. My schedule frees up tomorrow anyway.

Although empire real quick. I've been trying to figure out what to make of the rofl kill too, though I've also been trying to make sense of the vi kill. The one thing with rofl is that he was very outspoken. I'm leaning away from it pointing to dv though. I think that dv seems townish, and I know that nacho feels really confident in his ability to read dv and he had him as a strong town read, so I'm adding that into my own thoughts.

Anyway, tomorrow...tonight *sleep*

[Tammy]

Oh and I said that AA might be town and agreed with the vig shot and I stand by that. I thought even if she was town she'd be a detriment to town, and I'm super happy that's not something I have to worry about right now.

(to dv since he was wondering who said that. Someone lse might have too, but idk)

[Tammy]

I have too many damn town reads and somethings wrong.

Empire you're right that Zach prefers town and lurks as scum. I remember that from team mafia, and you can see him describing his scum game here http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 2#p4162492

That said, I'm second guessing myself on my earlier moi/zach scum read because of dgb and her town read on the slot. Though I don't really agree with several of her reads so I'm kind of at an impasse. Although Nacho also had a strong townread of the slot, but I also don't really agree with his snowstorm read, so again at am impasse. So, Nacho's scum reads were baby, snowstorm and rofl. Baby he was right on, but rofl wrong. (I'll talk about snow in a minute) And dgb's two scum reads were baby and dv, but I don't put much stock in her reads as I almost don't feel we were reading the same thread/she actually read the game.

As far as snowstorm. One thing, I'm alive and Vi and rofl are dead. I've been trying to make sense of the Vi kill, and really can't. It's not like he did a whole lot in the game. He directed the vig shot, and helped with the mehdi mislynch. But didn't give a whole lot of reads or try to lead the town in any way. (I'm at a big loss how mehdi was reading him as scum because of bop of all things day one but whatever.) The only thing that I can think of that might have lead scum to believe that Vi was a powerrole was:

Partial BoP too in just what he's said so far (such as the amount of time AA being annoying is discussed or not hearing any other scum reads of his).

how much of that do you think is intentional

This is really the only thing in thread I can see Vi being killed over. Other than that, I can only imagine scum killing Vi because they have experience with him or know that he is decent at this game. Damn I kinda lost my train of thought here. But I'm not sure that it would really rule anyone out.

Rofl was really outspoken and was intent on lynching Zach today and really wanted NS gone too through vig. Who else did he think was scum? Oh, DV, who I don't really think is scum. He's not as obvtown as I've seen him before, but there are aspects of his play that read town.

I've never seen him as scum though

AND Nacho gave him a strong town read. I can't remember what game it was that Nacho described why he can read dv, but I know that he's confident in his ability so as I said before I'll add that to my townish reading of him. (The thing is that when people who know how to read me, read me properly I expect other people to accept that, so I'll accept it when others do it especially when they've become confirmed town.) And actually, I don't know why, but Post 610 feels so super genuine. Regardless DV is not someone I'm considering for scum right now unless someone has some really good evidence for it.

Okay so, on the snowstorm front. So, what we're looking at is either a four person scum team or a three person scum team with an SK. That is my best guess. Yeah, I know I suck at balance, but it's 3 for eleven people, so why wouldn't it be four for 15. Right? So we have baby spice + a possible snow storm, right? Here's the thing. The last three times SnowStorm was scum (Johhog you're right SS is a bad abbreviation and our german friends at westeros won't even use it >.>) he killed me early. One time he left me alive mostly because I was tunneling on an innocent, but killed me as soon as I got her mislynched. The next time was reasonable, I was a cop who got a guilty on him night one and got him lynched the next day, and the next time he was partners with kingmaker and tried to kill me night one (even though I was tunneling on town and generally a mess) and killed me the next night.

So, the fact that I'm still alive kind of makes me doubt SnowStorm being scum. But I also know we are not at Westeros and I probably wouldn't be first choice for a kill around here. Post 766 somewhat make me doubt a scum SnowStorm also in conjunction with the he always kills me as scum thing. I don't like that he didn't follow up with it and was waiting to see his response, but I *think* as scum he'd not bother with questioning me out of everyone else he could have questioned at the start of day 3. Like, a big part of me feels like if he were scum he'd just not want to deal with me as he'd know I was town and that I might get more focused on him if he were to try to focus on me. Does that make sense?

I do need to read through Empire's interaction posts with Baby as I just kind of skimmed them, and I need to finish looking over some things...being wrong two days in a row sucks...but I'll be around more from now until deadline though.

[Tammy]

Okay, I lied. I got sucked into The Wire tonight

I'm trying to finish season 1 before Faraday's game begins

I finished season 1 last night!

[Tammy]

Although Tammy, is there anyone else here that is aware of Snow's tendency to kill you as scum?

Well Kingmaker would have. Arthur might remember, though I don't think he's played in those games. Nobody else though.

Empire, I will...tomorrow. I'm going to sleep now.

[Tammy]

The most recent Baby Spice scum game I could find: http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=56&t=18881

[Tammy]

Okay so basically in that game, she mentioned one of her partners (magua) a couple of times, and I think mentioned Iam once, but other than that didn't interact or talk about her partners really at all.

That doesn't tell me much, but does make me feel better about Johhog and SAD, but I didn't really need babyspice for that as they're two of my strongest town reads. So besides them two, Empire is also still a strong town read.

Okay, I'm going to watch more Game of Thrones and sleep; I'll post more tomorrow. I think I have a question to answer too. I'll do that tomorrow or maybe in a little bit.

[Tammy]

Nobody hammer please!

I've got some things to finish up before I do something with this game. Let me post first.

[Tammy]

Nobody hammer please!

I can't hammer, I'm already on the wagon.

[Tammy]

Tammy, who do you prefer more right now? As my strongest townread, I'm leaning a lot on your thoughts

Huh? You're not ready to argue with me? You mean all I got to do to get you to listen to me is not hydra with you?

[Tammy]

Okay real post coming soon.

[Tammy]

Fuck...I'm having second thoughts on my arthur town read.

[Tammy]

No maybe not...fuck

[Tammy]

Yeah, I agree with that dv. So, it remains to be sen on zach/moi, because if he does end up being scum I think that solidifies Arthur not on their team.

What has me a bit paranoid is baby's comment in Post 534 that several of my interpretations are wrong. Part of me feels like that was a slip of sorts, so I'm tring to figure out what she could be referring to.

[Tammy]

I would pretty much bet the entire game on empire being town though. Still also think johhog is town, also think Arthur is town too...there's just some paranoia there.

[Tammy]

Humph...vi called me boring. I'm not sure how that fits with overbearing, crazy or bitchy. But damn boring. Vi...really?!? Here this should keep you entertained

[Tammy]

I thought this before but did mehdi really pull a burden of proficiency scum tell on Vi day one >_>

[Tammy]

Okay again I know that peopl have been using Post 545 as an innocent crumb on me but it could just as likely be a guilty on moi/zach. Yes, I know but it does make me wonder.

Also, there is something else that makes me worry. Rofl was a gunsmith..not a cop. A gunsmith can usually investigate mafia but not an SK right? I know someone yelled at someone else for bringing it up, but it's been on my mind since day started.

[Tammy]

Sorry fe the spam...it'll continue for a bit thugh.

I don't like the "it's pretty magical stuff" from dv in Post 571. I'm not sure why

[Tammy]

NS_shos isn't in the game be ause he's going in the military and wouldn't have proper access.

[Tammy]

I still don't like that snowstorm didn't actually respond to the question he asked me. I'm still of a mind that if he were scum he wouldn't have bothered to even ask me questions, but I don't care if he thought the crumb possibly related to me. It's nowhere near definite, so his dropping it makes me feel twitchy.

[Tammy]

Tammy, when you speculate about Snowstorm being likely to kill you, was the decision to kill you in those games largely his or are you attributing the kills to him because scum as a unit chose to kill you?

Well, scum as a unit chose to kill me, but he had a voice in it. It's no way a definite meta tell as I don't think I'd be more likely to be killed before vi or rofl, but it's something I'm keeping in mind with regards to his alignment.

[Tammy]

So, the fact that I'm still alive kind of makes me doubt SnowStorm being scum. But I also know we are not at Westeros and I probably wouldn't be first choice for a kill around here. Post 766 somewhat make me doubt a scum SnowStorm also in conjunction with the he always kills me as scum thing.

I don't like that he didn't follow up with it

and was waiting to see his response, but I *think* as scum he'd not bother with questioning me out of everyone else he could have questioned at the start of day 3. Like, a big part of me feels like if he were scum he'd just not want to deal with me as he'd know I was town and that I might get more focused on him if he were to try to focus on me. Does that make sense?

The follow up to that question could take me some time to write and I didn't have time for it. I also don't think it's urgent or even relevant because of rofl's likely breadcrumb, it's just that it bothered me that you stayed with your vote in KM for pressure rather than move it to Baby, whom you seemed to have a scum-read on.

But why? One rofl might not have investigated me, so dropping it like that seems odd. But why did it bother you that I kept my vote on kingmaker? What bothers me a bit about you is that you asked me that at the beginning of day even thugh you voted kingmaker over anyone else and after it was pointed put by two people that rofl might have investigated me.

I guess what's mostly bothering me is about this is that our of all things you could ask you asked why I voted kingmaker, and then say it bothered you for why I kept it there and don't follow up. I mean meta wise, you would know this isn't a thing. I'm like the worst person to look at votes wise, I spend nearly whole days without ever even voting, so im not sure why you focus on it for me and then not follow up especially since you couldn't know I voted kingmaker for pressure until I said it after you asked, so how could it bother you?

It looks to me like you picked up n something convenient and dropped it because most everyone else decided on a crumb.

[Tammy]

But [posr=851][/post] makes me think snow storm =town.

[Tammy]

That should be Post 851.


And Post 863 has me reading snowstorm town.

[Tammy]

Okay empire if we both wake up tomorrow I'll bounce ideas off you

For now


Town = empire, johhog, arhtur

I want to say DV is town, both be ause of my thoughts and because of nacho, but Bleh

Also would like to say ns is town bt don't feel confident at all (also rofl's kill points here)

[konowa, zchrulez, and snowstorm] = my best bet for scum.

I'm going to sleep now. Ill be gone most of tomorrow, but I'll be back about 2-3 hours before deadline and until then, so no one has to worry about a no lynch situatin.

[Tammy]

Okay again I know that peopl have been using Post 545 as an innocent crumb on me but it could just as likely be a guilty on moi/zach. Yes, I know but it does make me wonder.

Also, there is something else that makes me worry. Rofl was a gunsmith..not a cop. A gunsmith can usually investigate mafia but not an SK right? I know someone yelled at someone else for bringing it up, but it's been on my mind since day started.

A gunsmith can investigate anyone. However, SKs usually (traditionally) kill with knives, so they don't have guns.

But here's my problem, why have a gunsmith instead of a cop if there's not a serial killer?

[Tammy]

For post 851 I like the depth, what I don't like is I feel buddied

not self-absorbed

Post 863 is him focusing on zach and it feels real. It's something I've seen him do a lot as town.


Passing out now...talk more tomorrow

[Tammy]

Snowstorm. Couple things.

Why bother dropping it f you knew it was possible that I wasn't investigated in the first place? I don't care how little time you had, it doesn't make sense to ask me the question in the first place because you found it suspect and thinking I might not have been investigated and then dropping it basically because it was possible I had.

Do you realize how hypocritical you sound? You followed me onto kingmaker, and are now telling me you don't like my vote on kingmaker for a myriad of reasons. Also, didn't you argue against the empire going after ns due to it being an easy mislynch because scum don't need to do that and sometimes the easy vote is actually on scum. You don't get to now use that reason against me after discounting the idea in general.

I really don't care that you gave reasons. Giving a bunch of silly reasons. Doesn't make one vote better than the other, and doesn't mean that it was for pressure. If you look at the end of day one, i said moi, baby and kingmaker needed more attention day two. You know that because I also said I was worrisome that you didn't comment on him, and what do you do at the start of day two? Make him your top suspect. It's pretty convenient to use the he didn't react to your vote and completely ignore that I asked him a question and commented on something to him. He replaced out so of course I didn't get to interact with him. Also, ALSO if you notice I was immediately here interacting with his replacement,

So what's the problem you're having again? And just so your aware the " Also, you know KM is an easy target and a common mislynch victim, the fact that you chose to go after him on day two over anyone else didn't make me feel any better about you." is disingenuous as fuck. Who was that second vote on the kingmaker wagon? Oh that's right. It was you.

I'd also like to point out that you called me town day one, so what is this "feeling better" about me nonsense. You're also essentially using buddying me as a scum tell with zach, which makes no sense whatsoever if you don't think I'm town. You're using meta on kingmaker and a lame argument against me concerning the matter of a vote while disregarding the issue of voting meta for me. When and where I place my vote has never been able to be used with me. You're also convieniently disregarding the interaction I had with dgb, which makes your whole argument really shallow and short sighted.

-----------------------

All right I'm heading out for a bit. I'll be back well before deadline and will hammer then if no one else has. Pretty sure empire said he wanted to post something so at least wait for him to hammer.

[Tammy]

Okay, I'm back. I'll be here until deadline...after I eat dinner.

[Tammy]

You're right, Tammy. It was wrong of me to doubt my earlier town read on you and I should have kept my paranoia to myself.

I never said that and you know it. I don't care if you doubt a town read on me, what I care about it determining whether or not it's genuine.

[Tammy]

Tammy, I may have asked you this before, but can you talk to me a little bit more about Snow's meta (specifically, his scum play)? I feel like a lot of his pushes have had meat to them, not just the Zach, and I don't know about Snow's level of competence as scum so I can't say if he's capable of faking all of that.

I'm not really an expert in snowstorms meta. I think I said before that he tends to garner a lot of suspicion and get mislynched a bit. He's not mislynch bait but people tend to find him suspicious, and I've probably read him as scum more than I've read him as town. Once I tried to get him lynched because I thought he was lying about being the town doc when he was run up to claim, and another time I tried to prove he was a traitor after he was night killed (our roles don't flip when we die and sometimes neither do our alignment).

I correctly suspected him his first time as scum because he wasn't scumhunting and was being very noncommittal. The second time was somewhat similar but he started scumhunting, I was tunneled on someone else that game so I don't remember much about his play except I had him on my suspect list. I know the third time I correctly investigated him, mostly because his scumhunting was a bit off and he was disengaged. I just read his iOS from the last game in which he was scum, and he corrected a lot of the issues he had in the first couple games. He is becoming competent as scum. The case against kingmaker he could easily make as scum, not sure about the case on zach. That more reads for the type of case I expect from him as town.

I don't even know if I can really verbalize how I read snowstorm. I can read him best by reading how he interacts with his suspects/reacts to suspicion and progresses over time. I'm not really confident in my read on him either way right now, but right now I think he has a better chance of flipping town than scum.

[Tammy]

Meh. I just read through moi and zach again. I don't feel confident in anything about this game right now.

[Tammy]

Anything you want to ask me?

Yeah, can you pick me up from waffleville? I'm tired of my visit.

[Tammy]

Yeah, go for it. I just was reading through babyspice, but I just really don't know. Might as well put an end to the day.

[Tammy]

Zar's online so hopefully we'll know soon. *cross fingers*

[Tammy]

Baby spice, kingmaker, moi = people who need a much closer look tomorrow.

Two out of three baby!

[Tammy]

Hmm...Arthur can you explain the ns town? There were a couple things I though pointed towards them being partnered.

[Tammy]

Hmm...okay, I'll look at that too, and read through dv later tonight when I have some time.

Arthur - I read through konowa right after the flip because I was thinking it was out of him and ns, and I think konowa is town here. I'll explain why later tonight after work though.

[Tammy]

That's funny dv, I was actually expecting an Arthur kill, I expected a johhog kill the night before though, so the kill doesn't seem out of the ordinary.

[Tammy]

DV - SAD pushed for the MoI lynch both days and went after baby strongly as well, so I would expect him to be their target.

I'm fine with a mass claim.

[Tammy]

Thank you snow storm. Two amazing vig shots! (even if arcangel was town, but I'd you do an overview of her play in games recently as both town and scum, that was a good shot.)

though I am a little paranoid you're an sk but hopefully we get rid of mafia and the game ends before that spiral but you're play overall seems more townish

[Tammy]

I don't know why my iPad autocorrects If to I'd all the time. Maybe I type too fast or something.

Also, I lied, I'm not going to explain why konowa is more likely town tonight. I'll do it tomorrow or Friday when I have more time.

Also really think its nobody special over dv.

[Tammy]

I'll explain my ns read later too.

[Tammy]

Nilla. Who's left? Arthur, you're up.

[Tammy]

deas - gods you are driving me insane. if you're town stop wondering about what gambit you can play to keep from getting lynched and actually play the game. You're not my top choice but I'm ready to just go along with everyone else because of your antics.

As far as why I think Konowa is town. Konowa was playing this game concurrently with this one and his play matches his town play there rather similarly. As scum he's a bit passive and not engaged. He doesn't tend to ask people direct questions and get involved in conversations but mainly comments on the goings on. Here he's commenting and engaging. You can see this in where he questions NS, Post 147 & Post 151, Post 593, etc. Really just read him and you'll see him actively engaging people in the game.

Anyway, it makes him one of the weaker of my town reads. I'd still bet the entire game on empire being town. Like town. I don't think anyone's questioning that but DV so I'm not going to go into that further. I was leaning town on SnowStorm anyway at the end of the last day and his claim only makes it more so. I only have mild paranoia over him being an SK and isn't anything I'm ready to delve into. Still think Arthur's town and not going to reconsider that today.

That leaves Konowa/DV/NS. I've told you why I think Konowa is more likely to be town. Empire, I know you followed the game I linked, do you agree with my assessment that his play is a bit similar to there

minus the drunk posting

or is there something I'm overlooking?

I still need to read through DV and NS and I'll do that tomorrow, but I still do lean slightly towards NS over DV but really think it's one or the other.

[Tammy]

I agree with that empire.

I'm going to pass out now and will comment on ns and dv tomorrow. I still need to read through both of them and give my thoughts, but *sleep*

[Tammy]

You're so cute when you're acting so scummy NS. Do you think I'm a scared little puppy afwaid of the big bad nobody special? I'm busy...get over it lurker.

[Tammy]

I'm fine with hammering DV, but I'm concerned that Tammy keeps promising to give reads on me and doesn't ever deliver.

Also, if DV flips town, remember this. Just saying. It's been literally a couple days I've put it off and said it probs won't be until Friday.

But, hey NS, you should bring it.

[Tammy]

LMFAO...Okay.

[Tammy]

Just lynch do then if people aren't even going to bother to read or listen to what I think I'm not wasting my time doing it when you're just going to lynch do anyway. If it doesn't end the game and I are up tomorrow then I'll do it, but forget it for now. If it doesn't end the game and I don't wake up just read ns and moi in conjunction with each other as I found that suspicious.

[Tammy]

So should be dv damn autocorrect.

[Tammy]

No.

[Tammy]

Bleh read through dv and moi/zach and dv does look suspicious. Whatever.

[Tammy]

did you just claim scum dv?

[Tammy]

Okay so why I think it's ns. It could totally be dv I guess, and if so this is a waste of my time, but whatever.

Arthur your reason for calling ns town, due to him putting zach at 3 over dv is naive. in this game he happily put his partner at l-1 to try to make himself look good even though we as a scum team had decided to all push for the lynch of someon else. And the next day he made his partner viable again, so he's not averse to it. I can see where it would make you think twice, but his play just feels wrong.

MoI's Post 19 looks like he's subtly defending nobody special by asking konowa why he didn't like his post while at the same time putting him down, which reads odd.

MoI didn't interact with babyspice or deasvail, and the only interaction with nobody special was to ask him if he still had empire as a scum read in Post 152? And I also kind of see his going after empire being because he went after ns early game, but he also made sure to insult ns in Post 192 but avoided giving a read on him despite ns claiming him to be so good at it. Oh wait, he did also respond to ns in Post 481. Ns had called vi strong town, and magna responded by saying that he thought vi's play was dead null. This kind of lame interaction seems a bit off as I kind of would have expected a stronger reaction, maybe even suggesting a bit of buddying like he did with empire.

Zach's Post 763 reads off with regards to ns, though it could be plausible. That was his only mention of ns, and it was I thought he was scum but his interaction with babyspice means he isn't. He gave a null on dv and arthur, which I can see why this looks incriminating for dv. I've never seen zach as scum before so I'm not sure how likely he'd null a partner, I tend to find that experienced players do (or should) give actual reads on their partners because nulling them is like a roadmap, and his read of ns is somewhat noncommittal.

Babyspice laid down a vote on nobody special first thing in Post 21 which would fit for some scums belief to make sure to show suspicion of your partner early. She doesn't really do much with it though. She then turned all her suspicion to johhog. In Post 534 she waffles on ns and says that moi has been put in a bad light along with mehdi and sad for running up easy wagons. Baby refused to give a read on moi and had some weird interaction with ns in which it looks like he's asking a question just to ask one in Post 563? In Post 596 she responds to my question about her suspects by saying johhog, ns, and sad. NS because of his nothing to fear comment, but she puts him n the middle of her suspicion list.

She doesn't mention deasvail once though, so this is odd. But if deasvail interacts with his partners the way it looks so obvious for he and zach, why doesn't he also interact with baby?

Ns first going after konowa in Post 23 looks weird. I can't imagine someone actually thinking that. He doesn't mention either baby or moi in his reads list of Post 458 and his "see what vi's read of Tammy is" looks like slight buddying. He has his throwaway question to baby in Post 562 that reads off, looks like interacting to interact. Then he refuses to give a read of moi in [/post which makes no sense whatsoever and he never responds to my follow up in [post=622] in which, incidentally I ask him about his read on baby spice for which he answers in Post 617. So, for both members of the scum team ns has been completely unable to give a read on. Also if you follow the link I provided in post 622 you will see a town ns NOT intimidated or afraid to give a read on moi. In fact, he was continually calling moi scum throughout that game, so why he's piss pants scared to do it now makes no sense. So he says in Post 718 that he's willing to vote zach or nacho, reads baby's 596 and follows the vote on her, which I could totally see as bussing and making sure he got in some early town cred by staying odd the nacho mislynch. What's weird is his Post 740 town often do engage in outlandish setup spec so I don't know where he's getting that, but then he switches to nacho in Post 749 after getting called out by Rofl and empire.

The next day he tries to revert to his empire suspicions in Post 775Post 776, but then decides he's not so scummy because of his responses to other people or saw it wasn't gaining any traction and decides to read through zach after a case had been made against him and he was at l-3. I need to point out that it already looked like it was going to be the vote of the day. The momentum was definitely heading towards a zach lynch when ns voted in Post 865, so I don't give him any credit for that.

Then comes his of all people strange attack on me in Post 997followed up by his vote in Post 998 before he votes deas, who I don't think he's even mentioned once.

I know that deas looks really scummy and seems desperate but I don't know why desperation is a scum trait over a town trait. No one likes getting lynched and I've seen town fake claim (hi snowstorm) for the express purpose of avoiding getting lynched. I don't think that dv is obvtown by any means and his interaction with zach does look suspicious. There are lots of suspicious things about him and he might be the last scum. He probably is actually, but I can't ignore the weirdness of ns either.

So I'm going to at least make this viable. Feel free to hammer dv if that's your preference and I'll feel like a dolt after. I actually think there are reasonable chances for either to be scum, but my stronger scum read is nobody special.

VOTE: nobody special[\vote]

[Tammy]

vote nobody special

Weird why didn't the vote tag work?

[Tammy]

Oh I had the slash in the wrong place.

[Tammy]

Oh and the post that gets messed up there are Post 617 and Post 622

I guess it really doesn't matter. Lynch dv today and if that doesn't end it lynch ns tomorrow. And if that somehow doesn't end it, it's between konowa/Arthur/snowstorm

[Tammy]

If, by some miracle, DV is town, then Tammy is totally scum.

Bravo you are so good at this. *clap clap*

I know you don't actually believe that.

[Tammy]

Oh hey nobody special make your case, don't just throw crap. Actually recurs one dam thing in my cases against you. I dare you too. Come on nobody special let's dance

[Tammy]

So, let me get this straight. You call me scum for not gmaking the case I said I probably wouldn't be able to make I tilt he weekend. I make the case and I'm somehow wtf scum? You don't refute or respond to one thing in my case. You just limp along going oh scum. Read that case, there is no way it's made by a scum me. You've seen me as scum, you know this is not my scum play so you're going to have to try harder than that.

[Tammy]

What is absurd about it. Point out anyone thing that is fabricated or wrong.

Do you deny that you didn't give a read on both moi and baby spice when asked? Do you deny that you said you were too intimidated to give a read on moi even though in a previous game we played together in you were calling him scum for a good portion of the game.

What's fabricated nobody special? Why the hell should I see you as town?

[Tammy]

Why do you prefer konowa over ns. And what do you think about ns's response to me and my case dv?

[Tammy]

I just read konowa again deas and I stand by my thinking that he's town.

[Tammy]

Then why are you voting him dv? You say he feels like town, that my case is insignificant, and you're voting him. This doesn't make sense to me.

I don't get your point about the bussing though? He voted babyspice, got crap for it, empire voted nacho and he hammered. I'm not seeing the he showed a commitment to buss but didn't follow through. I find his jump on and then jump off to hammer after getting crap pretty bad.

[Tammy]

Whatever just hammer do...I'm sorry for wasting time on an insignificant case.

[Tammy]

He's probably scum anyways trying to pull it cool like he's not trying to save himself after being called out for being desperate. Idk idgaf anymore, Arthur where the hell have you been?

[Tammy]

SS: Tammy hammer dv already

Tammy: here's why I think ns is scum

Ns: Tammy is scum that case is absurd

DV: konowa is scum, Tammy your case on ns is insignificant

Tammy: idgaf about this game anymore ly ch whoever the hell you want.

[Tammy]

Then who is it deas?

It's definitely not empire. It's most likely not snowstorm unless he's an sk trying to parade as a 2 shot vig but I don't think that's very Likely. That leaves you/konowa/ns/Arthur. I doubt it's arthur. I also don't think it's konowa, and you haven't offered p any reason whatsoever for me to doubt my read on konowa. That leaves you and nobody special and I think he's a bit scummier than you even tough your interactions with zach do suck.

[Tammy]

But the fact that moi didn't interact with baby or with deas probably means its deas. I really don't know.

[Tammy]

Happy scum-day lord zar!

I'll respond to empire tonight, since tomorrows a holiday I'll have some time tonight and tomorrow, but I'm heading out for the day.

Snowstorm - yes, deas looks suspicious as hell and it might be him, and all the things posted might make it seem more likely if I hadn't seen deas act like this when he's up for a lynch more than once. I don't know I he also does it as scum, but I know he does it as town. What I find more covincing and suspicious is his interactions with zach.

[Tammy]

My TammyMeta: we were both town, alive in endgame in a 3p endgame thing. http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=55&t=21344

She's scum here. I feel like I'm tunneling. DV is starting to feel town now. OMG I hate this game sometimes.

??? If you remember that game, I gave you a scum read upon replacing in that I retracted over the course of the next day. By endgame I was leaning more towards MoI, and if you read how I approached MoI and examined his interactions with flipped scum, you'll find me extremely similar here.

[Tammy]

This is just so annoying. DV's lynch is a no-brainer to me and I simply can't understand why you three are still trying to avoid it or fight it. I get it that you wanted to look at other suspects, I get it that you really wished you were right about your earlier town reads on DV / scum reads on Konowa/NS, but we've had more than enough time to think and analyze every possible scenario and no matter how hard you wish you were right, you have to admit that you're most likely wrong now and DV won't become town all of a sudden just to make you happy.

Can we end this now, please?!!?!??

(I'm aware this might come out as an overreaction and that I could just wait for you to make up your minds, but I can't help it, this is deeply irritating.)

What is your problem? How is it hurting you for us to discuss things? Because you just know you're right? Good for you, don't move your vote, but I don't really see the need for the ranting.

For the record, I couldn't care less about being right about earlier town reads, especially on ones that weren't that strong either. The only town read I'd refuse to so much as consider is empire. And I suppose you as a good point was made that the gunsmith makes sense with a vig I guess. The rest I've been reconsidering and reassessing the whole time.

And if it is DV, great. All we've wasted is a couple of days. If it's not, then the discussion today will be productive for tomorrow. So just deal. You're going to get your DV lynch.

[Tammy]

DV's interaction with Konowa is really scummy, btw. (DV's end I mean)

[Tammy]

I don't think Zach ever really looked like he wanted to lynch Konowa.

When it was me and him on Snow and Johhog on Konowa with me obviously able to vote for either, he could have easily just moved to konowa and told me to do so and then he would have had a better counterwagon if he was open to lynching him.

When would he have told you to do so?

[Tammy]

I didn't feel it like a punch in the gut, I felt like it was a slap across the face.

[Tammy]

VOTE: deasvail

Hopefully this ends the game and no one minds. We're not going to get anywhere else, and I think we have enough decent content for tomorrow if he does come back town.

[Tammy]

Sorry I stole your hammer . I should have asked if it was okay, but he just was getting increasingly scummier.

[Tammy]

It might not have been but your whole interaction with konowa reads scummy, and he raised a couple good points that go along with your suspicious interaction with zach. All of the interaction today got to the point of uproductiveness.

[Tammy]

Yay! Congrats us!

We totally had them fooled

[Tammy]

See I told you guys, the best distancing is no distancing.

[Tammy]

Yeah tammy was pretty obvious but gg.

Yeah, well I always am. I'm surprised no one else noticed.

[Tammy]

yeah it's kinda sad

[Tammy]

It was. I'm glad Konowa suggested it, even though he's trolling now.

[Tammy]

I knew it was between NS and DV, and my problem with DV was that I had a scum read on him in mafiastuck for a while but was wrong on that, so I second guessed myself and placed a lot of emphasis on Nacho's read. I really did think that some of the interaction with NS was scummy, especially him not giving a read on MoI after Baby had done the same thing. In the end though, DV's interaction with Konowa was really scummy.

[Tammy]

Thanks Zar for running it! I had a great time playing with all of you.

QTs?

[Tammy]

I told you rofl didn't investigate me!

[Tammy]

I told you rofl didn't investigate me!

See, I was right in being paranoid!

Well if scum I probably would've just eaten that up. As I truly thought the post pointed to an evil MoI investigation. Other people thinking he was town was what had me second guessing myself near the end of that lynch.

I don't get in the dead qt where DGB thought I didn't want him lynched, I was just losing confidence.

[Tammy]

I'm fine with it actually. NS' reactions today read pretty town while DV's interactions got increasingly scummy, so I felt pretty good about it when I hammered.

[Tammy]

I just realized this is my last game until the wire starts. So see you all there! (Oh and Scott Pilgrim)

[Tammy]

But I was mistaken on you too ns. But you were pretty much town telling today.

[Tammy]

I did not badger either of you, and I'm sorry you felt that way. Yes, I got increasingly annoyed with mehdi, and I'm sure that came through, but most of my annoyance was in trying and failing to get mehdi to understand what everyone else was saying and what he was saying were not the same things. I'd seen him as scum before give a definition for something that wasn't the accepted definition which made conversation with him difficult. I did not lynch mehdi all on my own, nor was I even the stronget pusher of his lynch.

My scum read on your slot prior to replacing in wasn't really strong, it was stronger on baby and moi than on you. I wanted to be able to get a read on you, it's why I asked if you were reaction testing Arthur to say what you learned. But the way you were dancing around answering johhog was a bit annoying. I never toe tapped demanding reads, definitely not on everyone, and I wouldn't have expected it first thing. But it the way you gave reads did look like just throwing out reads. I wanted you to explain a couple of your reads, mainly moi. From my perspective, you gave reads I couldn't follow, called a strong scum read clearly town and called my strongest town read sketch picking up some of the suspicion that moi had thrown his way.

I never called you a scum fuck, I did call you scum, and it wasn't playful, I was annoyed that you refused to answer why you were townreading moi. I could see scum motivation in protecting a partner and needed something of your thought process so I could read you. It was never about entering the combat zone with you, yes I might have been a bit increasingly aggressive but refusing to answer a question wasn't helpful either.