Open 556: Fire and Ice (Over)

[Not_Mafia]

Me saying I will quote posts later today when I'm not phoneposting and your monster stall that has comprised most of the gameday are the same?

[Tr1ckster]

I'm not distracting town by addressing points I've already addressed. If you have something legitimate against me, feel free to bring it up now.

[Moonlight]

*sighs*

Tricks, has your read on Zeph changed at all? If not, tell me why you've been townreading someone who is not lifting a finger to defend the "most Town" player according to his reads.

[Tr1ckster]

No, it has not changed.

I don't see a good reason to scumread him. He's been lurkish, yes, but I have larger scumreads on other players right now. I see what you're saying about him, but he doesn't seem to care about how he's read. His actions seem town and his motivations for them, too, seem town to me. I'll look at him when some of my other scum reads are resolved.

[Moonlight]

Boro's play looks pretty similar to what I've seen from his Town play. Or do you think he wasn't stubborn in the previous game?

As for NM, I've already explained in my wall-post what I've liked from him and how my read on him changed.

If I assumed you are Town and that there's scum on your wagon, my guess would be 4 Heads due to 533 not sitting right. That's based on a very big "if" and gut though. >_>

[Tr1ckster]

Hanzo wasn't stubborn in his previous games?

As to 4 heads.. that doesn't sit right, no... but the rest of their play seems fairly consistent.

[BoroPhil]

Um. Does anyone else see the irony of this situation?

No, N_M, I will not do for you the thing you refuse to do for me.

I want every player in this game to tell me how this is not scummy. At absolute best, it's anti-town.

and from the player who said of me:

unwilling to work with town,

540

The hypocrisy is staggering.

[BoroPhil]

Trickster, in isolation.

Where have you answered these?

Because he makes little to no sense to me, and I can't understand his train of thought. He seems to be misunderstanding things on purpose, unwilling to work with town, and overall stubborn.

You don't even have to copy it out again. Just link me to the post(s).

[Moonlight]

Hanzo wasn't stubborn in his previous games?

Apples and oranges. Boro has been consistently after you from the get-go. You didn't make a reachy case against Boro before he made his move. When he voted you, you weren't the easiest target at the time.

You're comparing two different situations in two different games from two different players. =/

[Baezu]

How much time is left in the day?

[BoroPhil]

about a month

[Moonlight]

9 days. Enough time to expect some fresh content from tman and Jasmine. I don't want this day to end before they can share their thoughts.

4 Heads are getting close to needing a prod.

[Not_Mafia]

@Trickster

I'll VOTE: Trickster then. Bored of waiting for the mod to come in

Cool. What happened to losing the scum read on me?

I also don't like his buddying on you, I see him trying to self impose a town bloc

Uh huh.

so much nonsense here it's ridiculous. >.<

Here is your complete non-response about you imposing a town block we discussed earlier

Main reasons Tricky is scum:

- stating obvious and cliched things to seem town. as per 96 and Ascended at 437. "Book of Mafia" really hits the nail on the head.
- buddied Moonlight from the start and got upset when Moonlight saw the light, so to speak
- enjoys misrepping. me at 107 and not at 184
- trying to lead town, talking as if confirmed town. almost as if he wants to emphasise to everyone how town he is
- voted for me and gave a big list of reasons at 325 then refused to expand on any of them.

I mean it would be a massive waste of time.

337

Cool.

Can everyone who's got their vote on me post a good reason they think I'm scum?

And everyone who doesn't have their vote on me post a good reason they think I'm town?

Anyone who's null on me, please pick a side and stick to it.

And if you can't find a good reason to think I'm scum, please unvote me. The reverse goes for if you can't think of a good reason I'm town.

Actually.. now that I think about it...

Could everyone do that for everyone they've got their vote on? I'll start.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: BoroPhil

Because he makes little to no sense to me, and I can't understand his train of thought. He seems to be misunderstanding things on purpose, unwilling to work with town, and overall stubborn.

what can't you understand?
what have I misunderstood on purpose?
who am I unwilling to work with? (would others agree with this? I seem to be getting on quite well with a few of you)
what have I been stubborn about?

pretty sure that can all be summarised as 'He is voting for me' but feel free to clarify. Or will there be no point just like last time?

- then tries to spread misrep and buddying mud to others at 440

458 and the atf posts that followed is simply classic scum found out and trying desperately to get others (Moon in particular) to feel sorry for him

The reaction to Ascended's catch up at 407 and 416 was bad as well. didn't want to let them finish, and then threw down an omgus vote.

Nowhere in your ISO is something that could be considered a response to these posts. You are not getting away with this crap. You are not the arbiter of what you have and haven't responded to, especcially when over half the playerlist is scumreading you. More of your nonsense coming up

[Not_Mafia]

@Boro

Read my first town game with Moonlight. I buddied hard.

Also...
Why did your reason for voting for me change between your two posts? I don't like that.

Misrep

There's a difference between jokey/rubbish reasons in RVS and latching on to something rubbish to go 'omg I got us out of RVS towncred please' with.

What? How do I get towncred if I'm scum for doing it? O_o

There's a difference between jokey/rubbish reasons in RVS and latching on to something rubbish to go 'omg I got us out of RVS towncred please' with.

Your argument here is I'm scum for doing it because I look like town for doing it.

What?

Another blatant misrep. Maybe Trickster is projecting with his "deliberate misunderstanding" thing on Boro.

I'll VOTE: Trickster then. Bored of waiting for the mod to come in

Cool. What happened to losing the scum read on me?

This was a flat out lie, which Trickster ignored when I asked him about it

I really don't like the "too townie" argument against me and Moon.

Another complete misrep of the arguments against him, no one said you were "too townie" they said you were trying too hard to

look

town

I'm flattered you think I'm pro-town. You make me think of another player on a site I came from. He knew how to make you look scummy for voting for the scummiest player, and you seem to be trying to make me look like scum for being the towniest player (which I'm not.) He was scum that game, by the way.

Another blatant misrep in the same vein as the one above

No, N_M, I will not do for you the thing you refuse to do for me.

An inane false equivalency

Me saying I will quote posts later today when I'm not phoneposting and your monster stall that has comprised most of the gameday are the same?

This question went ignored

[Not_Mafia]

you mean you can't give examples?

I mean it would be a massive waste of time.

I don't like Zeph's OMGUS behavior.

FoS Zeph

Moon, I don't think he did. I've seen scum do the same thing time and time again.

I really don't like the "too townie" argument against me and Moon.

@Zeph

No, Baezu's vote was .. well.. she made an effort to back it up with things. Yours doesn't seem to be really backed up at all..

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Zephyrus

For the sake of argument, assume I'm Town when you read this post, even if you're scumreading me. I want you to see what I see.

In 141, Zeph examines the possibility of a team of me and Tricks. (If he is scum, his lack of voting there suggests distancing, and I know I'm Town.)

In 246, he defends Tricks without providing reasoning behind his read and with his next post he goes after a hydra... for being a hydra.

In 284, he wonders if Baezu is scum with Tricks, but with his next post he townreads Tricks AGAIN without reasoning.

The way I see it, Zeph is scum and his flip will say a lot about Tricks.

Oh fun.

You make me want to unvote Zeph because I'm scared he's scum... >.< You're as bad as Cue, you know that? I swear I'm so done with you people who can make it bad for me to vote for a scummy player...

Semi off topic; I'd love nothing more for postgame lulz than for Trickster and Moonlight to be on opposite scumteams who are both trying to captalise on their dynamic to get townread

Now that's a game I want to see.

L-1 ^^

A vote for Zeph = a scum claim.

Zeph claim please.

Asking for a claim, so far from deadline with no intent, pointlessly reducing the NK pool for scum

UNVOTE:
VOTE: YurikoJasmine

Sorry Moon, I don't think I can see Zeph as scum right now. And my pressure vote wasn't doing much. So.

You know, I take my scumread on you back. I can't read you, because I don't understand you at all. And I don't mean that in the way I don't understand Boro. I understand what he

says

, I just struggle to follow his reasoning for what he says and that's fine, people are different, but you? I wonder if my eyes deceive me, it's like I can tell that you're speaking English, but the meaning behind the words is so wrong that accepting it would cause my faith in humanity to plummet.

Exactly.

Zeph isn't scum, I don't think.

I'm not passive aggressive.

PEdit:

Did I say he confuses me? Hm. I must have lied. Zeph makes sense to me. He's a good strong townread.

In no way is this a natural progression of a read, especially the turnaround in the last 3 quotes and your excuse is 'pressure vote' and "I lied"

[BoroPhil]

can someone who isn't me or not comment on this?

[BoroPhil]

and preferably one of the people not voting for Tricky

[Not_Mafia]

@Llama - Requesting prods on 4 Heads of Insanity and Zephyrus

[Moonlight]

I'm very interested in mastin's take on Tricks' more recent posts. I can share my thoughts on NM's push, but I'd be wasting a chance to get a better read on someone who shares theirs first.

[The_Ascended]

can someone who isn't me or not comment on this?

What is "this"?

[BoroPhil]

everything me and not have been saying about Tricky refusing to answer things. basically the whole of the last two pages.

[Zephyrus]

L-1 ^^

A vote for Zeph = a scum claim.

Zeph claim please.

[/unvote]


When you asked, it was technically L2. Interesting how you want me to claim. Explain on this.

[Not_Mafia]

It's more interesting how you only mention this now, after I did. Distancing?

That reads list would be appreciated

[The_Ascended]

So I told Pasch this last night; I think I found out why I've been having trouble getting back into the game since I started, and it basically boils down to a guess that the reason I've been having issues is that I've been feeling pressured and treating this as an obligation, rather than as for casual fun as it was when I started. I THINK I've gotten more into that casual mindset, now, which'll make it easier for me to get back into the game.

I was on page fifteen, and I don't particularly remember my thoughts, and whatever they are, they're going to be out of step with Pasch, but hey, this is better than nothing, soyeah, will be catching up.

[The_Ascended]

Not really liking this post by Zeph.

4heads's posting might not be inherently town by argument, but by tone is bleeding town.

Liking Borophil's posting here, too.

Cool. So you have a bunch of... feelings? Err.. can you explain them please? Is there a reason for these feelings?

That's the thing about feelings, they kinda are called feelings because they really don't have much reason.

Yeah, I probably did have some inking of reasoning behind the feelings, but it's just instinctive reactions to things, without going in-depth to analyze them more strongly, basically. The plan (which fell utterly into shambles) was to get caught up and just have my initial reactions, and then to reanalyze the content after talking to Pasch and get more in-depth content. In-depth content probably isn't going to come from me given that it's ~stress~ that I really don't need right now, but we'll see. I'm basically winging it at the moment and will figure it out as I go.

And the reason you're using feelings is because you can't debate them or work with people's feelings.

Actually, as scum one of my strengths as a player is on explaining feelings clearly. Assuming scum use feelings because they can't be debated is an incredibly one-dimensional take on the game. It might have been a valid argument at some ancient point in site history, but even by 2008 was an ambiguous-at-best argument.

Trickster they're just page 1 reads, you seem... jumpy

This.

Your unnecessarily defensive interaction with Mastin's early game reads just reels of bad omgus to me

This, too.

How strong would you say your reads are at this point, mastin?

Scale of 1 to 10, 1 being absolute zero and 10 being confscum, probably a two or three.

There's no such thing as a relaxed, soothing scumhunt. I think mastin of all people would know that.

Ah, but there is. It's one of the things that became a defining trait of my first alt, even. Mastin played seriously, but I enjoyed my games on my alt more because they were more casual. (When said alt became more serious, I discontinued playing on it for that reason.) Playing without the stress or feeling of obligation is incredibly soothing. I play offsite on a site that does take mafia seriously, but at the same time, is friendly and more casual. The game at its most serious over there is a game at an average level on here, meaning that I feel quite relaxed.

Not only is it a stress reliever, but it also helps my accuracy, I've found. Pressure to be right ironically increases the chances of being wrong. /rambling.

Please explain why you think N_M's game is town.

Well, while I've not seen NotMafia's scumgame...I have seen NotMafia's towngame, and his play this game has seemed exactly like it. I can follow his thoughts clearly, and they look solid, coming from a town mindset and motivated by finding scum, not surviving.

Kinda the opposite of how I feel about you, really. Your thoughts, not so easy to see clearly, and they feel survivalistic.

But even if you think that, there is stuff that's so outdated it's not helpful to discuss it anymore.

It's true that catching up can bring up a fair amount of irrelevant topics, but it is useful to do all the same--it's not just for bringing up things that can be discussed about earlier aspects of the game. (For the record, early-game is one of the strongest indicators of alignment in my experience in general.) It's also helpful for showing where a player has come from, as mentioned already.

Had mastin been any other player, I would townread them as misguided/confused town or VI. But mastin is a highly respected as an excellent mafia player, so I read her as scum right now.

Oh, Trickster. I have no doubts that, your alignment regardless, you do believe the things you're spewing. But take it from the person who wrote most of the articles you're plagiarizing from. You really don't know what you're talking about. Regardless of whether I would be town or scum, I do.

Define the difference between scum scumhunting and town scumhunting?

Easy. Scum are scumhunting the other scum faction, to get them lynched and be in the favorable position. However, they don't want to risk getting nightkilled, nor do they themselves wish to be lynched. Their relationships are therefore more delicate and precise, because one slip-up in any direction will go badly for them. Additionally, they have inside information, and thus, have a bit of an edge over town players, and are going to be using that edge.

Town scumhunting are scumhunting without any idea of who is scum and which faction is which and who is on which faction and whatnot. Nor do they particularly care--they're looking to get scum lynched, and it doesn't matter which. At least not on day one, anyway. They aren't really concerned about getting nightkilled (aside from the doctor, it's an honor!), nor do they actively think about the possibility they might get lynched. Their relationships are therefore more chaotic, random, and indecisive, lacking precision and clear direction.

I think there's a lot to be said for hearsay. It can say a lot about the source.. and the source can say a lot about it.

Thus my fondness for alts (and to some extent, hydras) in which none exists about me. You'd be surprised at how many alternative accounts I've made, simply to dodge the expectations of me. 2012 or so onward seem to see me as a goddess overall, 2009 and earlier overall still think me a VI, and the gap between them are coincidentally where most of my friends are player-wise since they seem me as...just another player.

That said, I've read her "Mastin Academy" or most of it, anyways...And her play right now makes me think scum.

This'll be interesting. Tell me what in my lectures made you conclude my play this game was scum?

You enjoy her having a scum read on you? *raises eyebrow* We think very differently, my friend. Very differently indeed.

It could be scum glad to see first-hand how they're getting caught, or town glad to see first-hand how I come to conclusions even if they're wrong (perhaps even a thrill at seeing me be wrong), but overall, it's probably just hero worship in effect and not alignment indicative. (Though my gut-reaction to it would be scum glad to see how they've been caught.)

I'm flattered you think I'm pro-town.

Not what I said. Appearing pro-town is different from BEING pro-town. Appearing pro-town = putting on a show, an act. Being pro-town = the real thing.

Play on MS.net is not so shallow and two-dimensional that the player posting the objectively-most-scummy things is scum and the player posting the objectively-most-town things is town. It is a necessity to read the driving force behind why they are posting that way. And I concluded (and am still kinda concluding) that yours comes from scum.

You make me think of another player on a site I came from. He knew how to make you look scummy for voting for the scummiest player, and you seem to be trying to make me look like scum for being the towniest player (which I'm not.) He was scum that game, by the way.

(Personal pet peeve of mine, by the way. Basically, referencing past games to bolster your presence in the current game. It's something I've references time and time again as being slightly scummy but not necessarily from scum. And I just now realized, thinking about it at this very moment, that it's been a known flawed point for years. The current variation is different from the original, but this is essentially invoking 7-for-7 with a touch of "No True Scotsman" as a valid argument: "I saw this trait in a previous game. It came from scum.", which ignores the reasoning behind having done the move as that alignment.)

... If Tricks is scum, he was looking to get off his buddy's wagon.

I'll be damned. D:

Just want to say that while this progression of thought could come from scum (the tone is not exactly full of ~passion~), it felt really, really genuine and legitimate, and very likely to come from town as a result. It sorta feels like an, "I TRUSTED YOU!!!" moment, feeling as if you've been backstabbed; the paranoia ranting resulting from it looked crazily-sincere.

It also showed a fair amount of effort--and it didn't look like effort to get a mislynch or justify a change in read. It looked like effort put in, in an, "Oh, god, please let me be wrong," type of way. Which makes me heavily think town for Moonlight.

I'm torn on Moonlight readflipping on Trickster here, the posting itself feels very organic, however the timing of it bothers me, plus he strikes me as a player with the ability to look organically town with his posting

Basically this, though I think town overall.

You're letting your paranoia take control of you. Get a hold of yourself.

Eh. I don't really want to play anymore. *sigh* Ah well. I'll keep playing. I just lost all my enthusiasm.

If you do end up lynching me, Moon, and live to D2, keep an eye on mastin for me, alright?

This also feels really, really flat to me.

Especially given the pressure.

I tend to be far more confident and aggressive.

The problem with these is that your play is anything but aggressive about it. You basically feel as if you've resigned yourself to it, flatly, rather than fighting against it strongly. There's an FoS of Moonlight, but no feeling of being backstabbed, of having been betrayed. Basically, you're saying your town self would have ~passion~, and...you're showing none.

Would you describe this as ATF Tricky? I think I would.

More AtE than AtF, but yes, an appeal flatly delivered to manipulate emotions is how I read it. It simply doesn't feel nearly as sincere.

Mastin: What would your read on Moon be if I flip town?

Well, given that my reads are basically made entirely separate from one another, especially right now? Whatever my read on Moonlight would be if you flip scum. The thing about that is that I can't tell you what my read on Moonlight would be because I don't know what it'd be.