Open 566: Murder on the Oriental Express (Game Over)

[curiouskarmadog]

Okay, not exactly a sheep, but I like your reasoning for farside.

what in

particular

did you like about his farside case? Why do you feel like farside is scum?

and...it should be noted, his vote is on me, not farside. Do you agree with his case on me? Why or why not?

Yeah, I realised his vote wasn't on farside back then so I amended that a bit.
Let's see... I liked the arguments provided and can reason through most of them. And they contain an adequate amount of detail. Plus farside hasn't come off as obvtown to me at any point.
I disagree with his case on you. I'm reading you as town. Your posts seem pretty genuine and not being on either of the scum wagons isn't that indicative of being scum.

but what in PARTICULAR do you like? what point really hit home in his case that made you think..."yeah, farside might be scum"?

[Green Crayons]

other than the vote to get a lynch, what post are you talking about here, where farside mentioned scrambles suspicion? why couldnt that post be exactly what it is..farisdetown, wanting a lynch over the a no lynch.

As I stated in Post 1757:

farside agreed with, or independently stated, suspicions about scrambles in Post 1065, Post 1071, Post 1262, Post 1309, Post 1345, Post 1346, Post 1353, and Post 1419.

My question for you is, when you prompted her to justify her scrambles vote (Post 1636), why would farside-town refuse to mention those previously voiced suspicions of scrambles when she responded to you (Post 1640)?

I can't think of a town-based reason why farside would refuse to put forward suspicions farside had previously endorsed. (I stated why farside-town would want to do so in Post 1771.)

now "feel free" to explain to me why farsidescum who supposedly didnt know that a player with the most votes hangs, would vote scrambles/her buddy at the time that she did? There is no reason to as scum...

Once again, I answered this in 1757:

(1) farside, like myself, was under the misconception that a failure to get a majority at the time of the deadline would result in a no lynch. (CKD pointed out my misconception of the actual rule at the beginning of today.) Therefore, farside-scum would be under the impression that her vote would actually contribute to scrambles' lynch (it wouldn't, because scrambles already had the most votes on him, and it didn't look like CDB was going to be surpassing scrambles' vote count per Post 1625).

farside had adamently refused to vote Beli on D1 and D2 -- even though Beli had pursued farside with an unnatural conviction and self-cetainty, and with a case that farside has herself said was really bad -- and so has been lacking in town cred. One way to up her cred would be to join the wagon on the sinking ship of a scummate. Hence, the late vote on the scrambles wagon.

scrambles was looking like the lynch for today. scum bussing their last remaining partner when they're practically locked in for the lynch (as scrambles was, leading the votes) is smart play, because it allows them to potentially net some town cred.

[Green Crayons]

I can't think of a town-based reason why farside would refuse to put forward suspicions farside had previously endorsed. (I stated why farside-town would want to do so in

Post 1771

Post 1772

.)

Fixed.

[farside22]

Phoneposting

You definitely didn't look anywhere near hard enough, farside

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 0#p6305080 here is me getting paranoid end of Yesterday for the same reason you brought up just now - scrambles and acyron both sitting on that dead-end Titus vote rather than push me as a more viable alternative.

Sorry phone posting and interruptions. Yah the paranoia makes me feel better about you.

@Farside
You still think I am scum? Can you break-down why WITH quotes, because in the past it has been based on feelings or interactions that didn't actually happen the way you remembered. I want to be sure this gets taken care of so I don't have to worry about convincing you later when we have a wagon on scum going.

I'll get to this in a separate post.

Green Crayons

, why farside over Amy?

Briefly, because I don't have the time to make a thorough case:

- Looking over Amy's interaction with scrambles' slot, she doesn't really come across as a scum partner. I think Blonde's softball questions to her are iffy, but that doesn't necessarily reflect suspicion on Amy as it can easily be chalked up to Blonde just trying to look engaged. Amy's sudden break of communication with the slot as soon as scrambles replaced in is weird, but goes further to show that it was Blonde that was pushing for a connection with Amy, rather than the other way around. Thus, out of Amy v. farside, Amy looks good.

- I really don't like Beli's hard push against farside out of the gate. If that's all there was to the situation, then whatever, fine. But it was a hard push against someone attacking his scummate Blonde, on what farside hadn't exactly claimed was a basis to lynch Blonde, just a basis for an early D1 vote. It's just a very weird situation, and one that doesn't sit comfortably with me.

- Even recognizing the fact that farside has had IRL issues, farside has used a lot of her activity simply being "catchup" posts. These look active, but they're not necessarily big on engagement -- it's much easier to look productive without gaining much suspicion by commenting on something that has already passed out of the thread's collective consciousness. I have seen scum use this tactic in recent games that I have played.

- farside is also just difficult to read for me, which makes me inherently suspicious of her play.

I want to add the following:

My vote on scramble is for 2 reasons, 1) no one else is voting acryon (2)deadline is coming up in a few hours and a no lynch is not helpful.

This comment is suspicious for two reasons.


(1) farside, like myself, was under the misconception that a failure to get a majority at the time of the deadline would result in a no lynch. (CKD pointed out my misconception of the actual rule at the beginning of today.) Therefore, farside-scum would be under the impression that her vote would actually contribute to scrambles' lynch (it wouldn't, because scrambles already had the most votes on him, and it didn't look like CDB was going to be surpassing scrambles' vote count per Post 1625).

farside had adamently refused to vote Beli on D1 and D2 -- even though Beli had pursued farside with an unnatural conviction and self-cetainty, and with a case that farside has herself said was really bad -- and so has been lacking in town cred. One way to up her cred would be to join the wagon on the sinking ship of a scummate. Hence, the late vote on the scrambles wagon.


(2) farside had commented extensively about her suspicions of scrambles. See: Post 1065, Post 1071, Post 1262, Post 1309, Post 1345, Post 1346, Post 1353, and Post 1419.

Despite this lengthy love affair with suspecting scrambles, farside failed to put a vote down on scrambles until the deadline was hours away.

But here's what really bothers me: in Post 1640, farside justifies her late-wagon vote on scrambles because nobody else would vote acryon, and the deadline was approaching. . . . Really, that's it? Absolutely

nothing

from the 8 posts where she voiced or agreed with scrambles suspicions contributed to her scrambles vote?

I was trying to think why a farside wouldn't at least point to her previous scrambles suspicions, regardless of farside's alignment. Then it hit me: farside had completely disowned her scrambles suspicions based solely off of scrambles' response under pressure (see Post 1396 and Post 1451).

I personally experienced a similar – but not identical – reaction. I also had doubts about my scrambles vote after scrambles' response, but was talking my way through it and actually revoted scrambles after he did another scummy thing. (Yes, I also then unvoted again, based off of perpetual self-doubt, but once again, I was open about trying to work through my stance.)

farside, however, did none of this. She was flirting with a scrambles vote, and then killed her scrambles suspicions completely in one fell swoop. It would look contradictory and messy if farside were to suddenly revive those suspicions hours before the deadline – a deadline farside thought meant would spell a no lynch if she didn't join the scrambles wagon. Scum don't want to look contradictory and messy. Hence, farside's avoidance of her previous scrambles suspicions when justifying her late-wagon scrambles vote makes her vote clean and simple -- but also artifically detatched from the actual history of the game. Thus, the basis for farside's vote on scrambles appears to originate from a scum alignment.

1) I did not refuse to vote beli. I said the following day 1 here about my scum reads I had chaos and beli as day 1.
I felt doubt later because beli's lack of claim. I would think scum would fake claim day 1 given they know of there are PR's out there.

2) I felt suspicion about both scrambles and acryon. That has not changed one iota. Just one of those things is I hate following others. I tend to make my own reads and push what I see unless I see something that makes me want to jump onto someone else. It's a personality thing I have. Mostly lack of trust in others and my own sense of pride.
Scrambles came back and fought, which I stated here
I'm not sure why this is scummy to you, when you felt the same way here but more about frustrated town
You call it flirting, I say stubborn.

Mod: v/la till Tuesday 10/28

If I told you the number of times I have attacked a scum player just to see them lurk like a fiend while people fought or lurk in general in hopes someone else would do something scummy I think I would be physically ill to my stomach at how often it occurs.

Go fuck yourself.
That is about the nicest way I can say it.

(shrug)

I didn't check to see what farside is doing in other games. It's just another example of when I've seen her point out scum behavior that would point to her being scum.

Example:

I still think scum bel would vote his scum buddy for town credit.

I also think looking at those that beli didn't interact with would be good. I notice if not bussing, scum typically avoid interaction with scum buddy.

VOTE: farside22

That is not a random vote.

Still liking CKD, farside, and AFF for scum, in that order.

Wow misquoting things in order to make a point.
I'm sorry was there a wagon on me day 1 that would have gone to be lynched based on the crap reason I missed there?
Was there a reason that Beli thought I was scum for a good reason? No. He was trying to use a crap reason to lynch a player. But hey let me know why you think misquoting in the order you did makes things fact there as to what happened.

Are you really trying to misconstrue farside's V/LA as scummy?

See Post 1768. See also:

- Even recognizing the fact that farside has had IRL issues, farside has used a lot of her activity simply being "catchup" posts. These look active, but they're not necessarily big on engagement -- it's much easier to look productive without gaining much suspicion by commenting on something that has already passed out of the thread's collective consciousness. I have seen scum use this tactic in recent games that I have played.

Ten bucks says she will be doing another catch up post.

I'm not saying her V/LA is fabricated. I'm saying that going absent and then coming back with a serious of catch up posts -- and this is her habitual play this game, not a one-time event -- is aligned with scum play.


Want to try to justify your vote on me?

Okay, seriously go fuck yourself.

I'm going to say this once only.

I'm in a pretty bad spot, lost my job yesterday.
I'll be taking a few days to sort stuff out.

Mod: V/la till Tuesday

noted

Do you know what that does to a person? Do you know that before that moment I was active in this game? Did you fucking look back at my posting prior at all?
I have been coming to this game when I can and when I have time. I'm sorry my loss of job and going on job interviews and dealing with RL issues is hard for you to understand why I'm in catch up, but even when I have stated a V/LA it is typically LA because I don't know how crazy my day will be and how tired I will be at the end of the day.
I do what I think is considerate to the mod in case I can't get online while I'm dealing with many things going on at home and even doing job interviews.
Im sorry I actually read through the game and respond. I can always just post one fucking liners and never respond to anything said if you want.
Would you prefer that?


I'll be back after I cooled down.

[curiouskarmadog]

scrambles was looking like the lynch for today. scum bussing their last remaining partner when they're practically locked in for the lynch (as scrambles was, leading the votes) is smart play, because it allows them to potentially net some town cred.

so do you think I am a smart player?

is farside scummy for joining scrambles lynch...

or am I scummy for not joining scrambles lynch?

I am trying to figure out if you are tunneling (town) or just throwing shit against a wall to see what sticks and people will grab a hold of (scum).

[curiouskarmadog]

okay I am going to go back and see when exactly in the wagon yesterday, farside voted.

[Riddleton]

UNVOTE:

Not sure what to think now. Will have to reread things later.

[ChannelDelibird]

OK. I reread Day 1 and looked at interactions between and involving flipped scum (reason I went for Day 1 is because it's the time when scum have to feel their way into the game the most; I typically find it a particularly instructive Day to examine in most games).

One thing to get out of the way is that there is

no interaction

between

Riddleton

's slot (Astinus -> Ranon) and either of the flipped scum. Though the activity and replacement is part of it, this gives me a townlean on Riddleton as, if he were scum, one of his buddies would likely have been sufficiently conscious of his absence to at least mention that he needed to post more or similar.

Spoiler: Amy

Interaction rates match Amy's activity level - fairly frequent at the start of the Day, almost nonexistent in the latter half of it as she posts less. Scum are happy to leave her alone while nobody scumreads her.

Amy's first non-self vote is a vote on Mr Blonde made without explanation, to which Blonde responds: "Shall we dance?" Amy never explains why she voted Blonde, and Blonde never pushes it beyond his original question. Could definitely be a scumbuddy interaction.

Amy asks Belisarius to tone down the sarcasm (he soon refuses) and votes him a minute later for using tone to put others down and being on an 'easy' farside wagon. Amy pushes that again in 97 but, as I talked about on Day 3, doesn't do anything about it for the rest of Day 1, though her vote at least stays in place. Townpoints for Amy for identifying the shitness of Belisarius's approach and vote, an extra point for sticking to her guns, minus points for not pushing it harder, comes out as null-to-slight-town. (I'm still not wild about that part where she talks about Belisarius not getting any towncred for it but that's not so much of an interaction issue)

Mr Blonde tries to get some reads-swapping going with Amy and asks if she has any scumreads other than Belisarius (she says Chaos). Nothing revealing either way, really.

The only other relevant interaction for the rest of Day 1 is scrambles coming in and immediately townreading Amy for her very early play, which is probably a point in Amy's favour (scum are slightly more likely to make such a quick pronouncement about a town player for credibility purposes).

Overall:

Some good and some bad. Certainly not enough to rule out Amy as a plausible buddy.

Spoiler: Titus

Snuggly votes Blonde for "false bravado", something for which Blonde belittles Snuggly hard, which begins a pattern of patronising and buddying (part two) on Blonde's part that lasts until he is replaced. He criticises Snuggly for the vagueness of his "something makes me think he's mafia" even though Snuggly said what that something is in the following post. Then you have this post from Snuggly where it's like he's looking up at Blonde while he's analysing him, which I think looks like a very unlikely tone to strike for a buddy.

Belisarius and scrambles both ignore the Titus slot.

Overall:

Titus is not a scumbuddy.

Spoiler: farside

Most of this is obvious so I'll be brief. Belisarius pushing farside for faux-righteous bullshit (y'know, part of the reason why we lynched him) is still a super-unlikely thing to do to a scumbuddy because the attraction of attacking somebody for a reason like that is because it's a way to make a mislynch look legitimate. That push is near-enough the only actual contribution that Belisarius makes to the game.

But hey, he wasn't even the first to push it. Blonde pushes a proto-version of the same case just before Belisarius does and he continues to leave himself a lot of wiggle-room in his treatment of farside, giving himself outs for saying how he could sort of see where she's coming from if town while still continuing to find new ways to poke and prod her and justify a vote there.

The

only

thing on Day 1 that makes farside look plausible as a buddy is her inclusion in Blonde's list of five null-scum reads, three of which are confirmed town and one of which I know to be town (Chaos). Ordinarily I would subscribe to the theory that scum would include a scumbuddy in such a list but I don't think that is anywhere near enough to contradict the obviousness of the interactions listed above.

Overall:

DON'T BE RIDICULOUS. Farside is clearly town.

Spoiler: acryon

acryon backs up Blonde early in the day but doesn't address Belisarius in a large-ish post concerning the whole Day up to that point. Blonde lists him as a top townread. acryon uses Blonde's vote for Chaos as the catalyst for acryon to join the wagon as well. Before Blonde is replaced, their whole interaction is cooperative and mutually townreading, without much in the way of directly addressing each other. Definitely plausible buddies.

After scrambles replaces Blonde, acryon engages him here purely on a theoretical level, which is less of a risk than more specific reads-based issues. The pair don't have any further direct interactions of note.

With Belisarius, acryon backs him up early on re: the farside bullshit. Looks reluctant when he feels like he has to vote Beli to get a lynch going. But correctly calls out Belisarius on probably lurking the thread rather than simply being unavailable, which is a minor townping. When push came to shove, voted Skelda over Belisarius.

When posting a reads list on the majority of players, has Belisarius as scum and scrambles as null - the classic position that scum often get into with their buddies.

Overall:

Not a slam dunk but definitely plausible as a buddy.

Spoiler: GC

Not much here, although RoyalApe posts a silly vote on Blonde that I don't think makes much sense as a buddy interaction as it draws attention to itself through its sheer inanity. A RoyalApe who was buddies with Blonde would be more likely to just say something generic about catching up, I think.

Blonde has a bland response to it, and RoyalApe later townreads Blonde. Nothing interesting here.

Overall:

Slightly less likely to be a buddy but, as we know, the most telling arguments against GC being a scrambles buddy are from Day 3.

Spoiler: CKD

I'm not a huge fan of cerberus calling Belisarius kind-of scummy but saying that "scum don't like to break silence like that" in an argument not unlike 'too scummy to be scum', as he declares a scumread but wants other votes pursued instead. Definitely a plausible buddy interaction.

Blonde kind of softballs cerberus on the Toby thing here but it's a slight ping, at most.

In the period after his initial replace-in, there's very little comment from CKD on either Belisarius or scrambles. His first interaction with them is here, where he has a go at scrambles for voting Beli over Chaos. It's fairly strong for a buddy interaction, really, especially as he continues to push it, though the fact that he defends Belisarius at the same time is maybe interesting. If CKD is the buddy, then he's putting his interactions with both partners in the spotlight more than I'd expect, but pushing one and defending the other isn't an unusual dynamic in that regard. Scrambles accuses him of "bullying", which I'm honestly not sure how to read so am going to call null.

Overall:

Some pings both ways, plausible but I'm not really convinced either way.

I'm pretty happy to call Riddleton town so I'm left with Amy, acryon and CKD as plausible buddies. I think I'd prefer acryon to go first and we can figure out the rest of the order later if we have to.

VOTE: acryon

[Green Crayons]

@farside:

1) You never voted Beli, so linking to a post where you didn't vote him doesn't exactly undercut my point. You did say that you thought one of Beli/chaos was scum. But just saying that, and then only voting chaos out of the two, does not net you townpoints.

2) My problem with your interaction with scrambles is not that you suspected him. It's that you suspected him, then dropped that suspicion, then (and here's where the suspicion arises) when you voted him again hours before deadline and was asking about that vote, you only justified that vote on the basis of avoiding a no lynch -- without mentioning any of your prior suspicions.

3) Your hostility isn't warranted. I've never said that you're lying about the bases for your V/LA, and I think that it's genuine. It sucks that your real life is hectic and hitting some lows. But repeatedly going quiet and then -- and this is the important part -- doing catchup posts as a major part of your presence in this game is alignment indicative. Sorry, but it is what it is.

4) It isn't misquoting when I'm literally quoting exactly what you said? Also, you keep hammering that Beli-scum was pushing your lynch based off of a bad reason. This cuts against you being town for two reasons: (1) Beli-scum bussing hard against a teammate can be to self-implode, thereby making the other teammate look good when the busser dies. Beli acted weird all game. I don't put it past him to have pushed hard against a fellow scum for bad reasons with the foresight of him getting lynched before his teammate. (2) You've hit hard several times about just how horrible Beli-scum's push was on you. And yet you never actually voted him for it. Scummy.

[Green Crayons]

@CKD:

scrambles was looking like the lynch for today. scum bussing their last remaining partner when they're practically locked in for the lynch (as scrambles was, leading the votes) is smart play, because it allows them to potentially net some town cred.

so do you think I am a smart player?

is farside scummy for joining scrambles lynch...

or am I scummy for not joining scrambles lynch?

I am trying to figure out if you are tunneling (town) or just throwing shit against a wall to see what sticks and people will grab a hold of (scum).

I feel like I just repeat myself when I interact with you.

Before I knew that you knew that there is a most-votes-without-a-majority-gets-lynched rule, I thought your play looked like scum attempting to stall voting his teammate. Once I realized that you actually knew your vote was unnecessary on scrambles for him to be lynched, your questioning looks less like a stalling tactic and more like trying to figure out whether you should vote scrambles/figure out farside's justification for switching to a scrambles lynch. I have said this in some iteration twice now, and this is the third time.

In contrast, farside looks scummy for joining the scrambles lynch because from my process of elimination, she's the only unknown on the scrambles wagon, and a player jumping onto the scrambles' wagon at the time that she did, with the mistaken belief that majority vote was required to avoid a no lynch, looks like scum play.

[Green Crayons]

Going to take some time to read through and think about CDB's analysis.

[Riddleton]

@mod: V/LA from 27th October (tomorrow) to 5th November. Emphasis on LA -- I'll still be around to post, I'll just be less active.

[Green Crayons]

I would like to hear from acryon and Titus.

[Green Crayons]

(Before I contribute further.)

[Riddleton]

what do you want from them in particular?

[Green Crayons]

Titus promised updated reads in her last post.

I want to know if acryon is actually going to scumhunt today.

[farside22]

@farside:

1) You never voted Beli, so linking to a post where you didn't vote him doesn't exactly undercut my point. You did say that you thought one of Beli/chaos was scum. But just saying that, and then only voting chaos out of the two, does not net you townpoints.

That was not what you stated originally.
You stated I was against a beli lynch day 1.


I didn't ask for a town read based on my comment, I was disputing your inaccurate comment.

2) My problem with your interaction with scrambles is not that you suspected him. It's that you suspected him, then dropped that suspicion, then (and here's where the suspicion arises) when you voted him again hours before deadline and was asking about that vote, you only justified that vote on the basis of avoiding a no lynch -- without mentioning any of your prior suspicions.

I forgot about him. I tend to forget people when I tunnel and someone smacks me.

3) Your hostility isn't warranted. I've never said that you're lying about the bases for your V/LA, and I think that it's genuine. It sucks that your real life is hectic and hitting some lows. But repeatedly going quiet and then -- and this is the important part -- doing catchup posts as a major part of your presence in this game is alignment indicative. Sorry, but it is what it is.

Until you can explain why I was communicating with others at the start of the game and interacting, to posting less and in catch as anything but being fucking busy in life my hostility towards this point stands.

]4) It isn't misquoting when I'm literally quoting exactly what you said? Also, you keep hammering that Beli-scum was pushing your lynch based off of a bad reason. This cuts against you being town for two reasons: (1) Beli-scum bussing hard against a teammate can be to self-implode, thereby making the other teammate look good when the busser dies. Beli acted weird all game. I don't put it past him to have pushed hard against a fellow scum for bad reasons with the foresight of him getting lynched before his teammate. (2) You've hit hard several times about just how horrible Beli-scum's push was on you. And yet you never actually voted him for it. Scummy.

Let's use facts instead if fiction. You used a quote I stated pages pruor to beli's vote on me and made it look like his vote on me is bussing. My statement was in regards however to skelda and beli not voting him to save himself.
Not the same thing by any stretch of the imagination.
Next up I asked beli questions and he didn't respond, then got into my scum read on chaos.

I'll be back Tuesday, as long as green crayons is okay with me being gone for a day doing RL stuff, if not I can replace out.

[farside22]

Oh and CKd has been in catch up whenever he post this in itself should make the only scum do x null and void.
It's called life. Not everyone can be here and sure as shit is not.
Titus? Nope, he just post a few things and doesn't interact.
Ducky that kept posting nothing of value and then disappeared.
Ape: no interaction and few reads.

Point farside.

[Baezu]

Vote Count 4.03

(L-2)

acryon: (3) Farside22, Titus, ChannelDelibird
Farside22: (2) Amy Farrah Fowler, Green Crayons

Not Voting: acryon, Curiouskarmadog , Riddleton

With 8 alive, it takes 5 to lynch.

Deadline: (expired on 2014-11-04 19:32:00)

Mod Notes:
None

[/area]

[acryon]

Ok, back for the week. Expect a nice, long post from me within a few hours.

[acryon]

Farside

-Obviously the early discussion on replacements from him was terrible. Looking back, it seems very possible that Beli used it as an opportunity to bus Farside for something that he knew would never actually get traction, but also distance himself from Farside.
-This actually sounds really good to me, but the interaction between scrambles and Farside all game doesn’t read scummy to me at all.
-I have called out Farside more than once for being inattentive and misrepresenting information, specifically in regards to events including me, but looking back over, I think this is far more likely to be from inattentive town. It doesn’t really make sense for scum-farside to misrepresent something that could so easily be corrected by someone else.

Verdict: Town

Titus

I have already mentioned more than enough times why I think Titus is almost definitely the final scum. This is clearly not something the town is interested at this point and there is always the possibility that I am wrong (although I don’t think I am in this case), so I will look elsewhere at this juncture.

Verdict: Scum (but being suspended for now)

CDB

-63 is all kinds of terrible. The Farside vote could be newb-scum jumping on what looked like an easy opportunity, but could also easily just be newb-town. The Mr Blonde wagon strawman is pretty scummy as well.
-The fence-sitting in 294 concerning Skelda seems like a good way to appear to be opposing the lynching of a townie, while not actually working to stop it from happening.
(The main problem with the above two posts is that I am having trouble believing that the same scum player would do both. I think independent of one another, they belong to scum, but I’m unsure they would belong to the same scum).
-500 has a really horrible defense of Beli. It lacked both conviction and decent reasoning. The vote for Skelda was similarly horrible. This post could very easily be newb-scum trying to defend his scum-buddy and being more transparent than they realize.
-572 is a very important piece in this case, because it is Chaos talking to Scum 2 regarding Scum 1. Viewing it in that context, it really does look like Scrambles trying to steer things away from Beli by questioning someone he knew would be against the Beli wagon.

I would urge everyone to review this exchange, specifically, because it is a critical piece.

-CDB then comes in looking town by voting Beli right off the bat, and provides a case to back it up.
-Post initial reads including scrambles as town. Here is an interesting piece. One of his primary reasons for town-reading scrambles is that he has kept firm on Beli for so long. Now this wouldn’t be suspicious if this read had come

after

the flip, because of course scrambles would get town-points for being firm on someone for so long that then flipped scum. But at this point, he hadn’t, so why is CDB giving him town-cred for it before the rest of us knew Beli’s alignment?
-CDB’s case about Amy being scum I mostly agreed with, and the only times CDB addressed me for a while was just to agree with comments I was making about the Amy-scum case.
-In 1101, after not saying a word about me for a long time, he is now “increasingly sure” that I am scum. I already called out how this was odd right after he posted it, and it still strikes me so. To me, this transition from Amy to me was CDB hedging and planning for the future. He knew he had generated a decent bit of traction on an Amy-scum wagon, but wanted to make sure he had a future wagon set up as well, so he switches to me.
-He proceeds to never mention me again until 1140 where he asks

scrambles

what he thinks of me. This seems like a great opportunity to distance himself from scrambles by having scrambles disagree with him.
-I think anyone that is town should look hard at my case on Titus and try to say that it would come from scum. I gain no benefit as scum by continuing to push on an unpopular case that is clearly not gaining traction. I think CDB is a much better player as town than to really think that my Titus-case was coming from scum. He knows it is just misguided-town, but is choosing to demonize it, because he knows he will probably be able to get people to agree.
-The fact that SO much of CDB’s case on me revolves around my Titus case should make one suspicious.
-1207 has CDB responding to GC pointing out that I never actually voted for Amy, which was another part of his argument. Nevertheless he accepts his wrongness, but his vote still remains on me. Good thing no one pressed the issue.
-1327 shows CDB turning on scrambles when it is clear the town had begun to turn on scrambles. He gets in at #3 on the wagon, a perfect spot for scum.

Verdict: SCUM

I think the rest are town, and will get to why I think so later. For now, I will end this wall-post, because I think it’s enough to ponder on its own.

VOTE: ChannelDeliBird

[ChannelDelibird]

I will try to contain my shock.

First things first, there is only one scum left in the game. Therefore it is literally impossible for you to be so simultaneously convinced that both Titus and I are scum. If you believe in your Titus case as strongly as you claim to do, then it does not make sense for you to be so sure that I am scum. Meanwhile, if you were town, on Lynch-2 with at least one player having expressed an interest on lynching you as one of our three remaining shots to nail the last scum, this would be the

last

time that you would want to abandon your Titus case. Given that there's a good chance that you'll die soon, the strongest advocate for your Titus case would die with you. This is when you have to continue to push it, not go in hard on another player. There's a pro-scum reason to do that (give impression of pro-town conviction by being active in trying to find the last scum, actually try to lynch player who might be more likely to gain traction than Titus) but not a pro-town one (abandon top scum suspect to allow everyone to continue to write her off as town).

-CDB then comes in looking town by voting Beli right off the bat, and provides a case to back it up.

I apologise.

-Post initial reads including scrambles as town. Here is an interesting piece. One of his primary reasons for town-reading scrambles is that he has kept firm on Beli for so long. Now this wouldn’t be suspicious if this read had come

after

the flip, because of course scrambles would get town-points for being firm on someone for so long that then flipped scum. But at this point, he hadn’t, so why is CDB giving him town-cred for it before the rest of us knew Beli’s alignment?

While I'll happily note that "compliments Scrambles for being so steadfast on Beli vote" is something for which I would probably suspect me too if I were looking for buddy interactions, it is important to point out that Belisarius's alignment was FUCKING OBVIOUS. Seriously, that was one of the easier votes I've had to make in a long time.

-In 1101, after not saying a word about me for a long time, he is now “increasingly sure” that I am scum. I already called out how this was odd right after he posted it, and it still strikes me so. To me, this transition from Amy to me was CDB hedging and planning for the future. He knew he had generated a decent bit of traction on an Amy-scum wagon, but wanted to make sure he had a future wagon set up as well, so he switches to me.

This is not an accurate representation of that post. It's obvious from my PEDIT that I was coming in to say that I was "reasonably sure" that you were my preferred lynch and then I explained here what about that ninjapost of yours made me bump up my suspicion in PEDIT.

My suspicion on you was not new at that point. I brought it up as soon as I replaced in, at exactly the same time that I first mentioned what bothered me about Amy. If I had been nefariously planning to set up a future wagon on you as well as Amy, then I had no need to switch to you at that point because I would already have had the necessary groundwork laid. And, given that the tone of my switch to you was "I am really creeped out by his relationship to the Amy wagon", I can't be pushing both of you at the same time because that suspicion is based on the notion that Amy is town.

-He proceeds to never mention me again until 1140

Post where I say acryon is my preferred lynch: #1101, 4.59pm on Tuesday (I'll generously give you the extra 15 minutes from #1101 rather than #1104)
Post #1140: 6.52pm on Tuesday
Elapsed time: 1 hour, 53 minutes
Time in between: Thread explodes, I'm caught up responding to CKD, GC and Riddleton about my Amy case
Time of full post on why I'm voting acryon: 7.30pm

Conclusion: Your insinuation that I was hiding from you or whatever this quote is meant to imply is unfair at best, disingenuous and wilfully manipulative at worst.

where he asks

scrambles

what he thinks of me. This seems like a great opportunity to distance himself from scrambles by having scrambles disagree with him.

How am I supposed to know whether or not scrambles would disagree with me? It's a completely open-ended question. You think we spent the night colluding to create an idea whereupon I would push Amy strongly, then get cold feet and turn towards acryon instead, so that I could randomly give him an opportunity to disagree with me to distance ourselves from each other when either of us at some point gets lynched? Bearing in mind that YOU THINK TITUS IS THE SCUM, why is that a more likely explanation than "I was trying to develop my read on scrambles"?

I think anyone that is town should look hard at my case on Titus and try to say that it would come from scum. I gain no benefit as scum by continuing to push on an unpopular case that is clearly not gaining traction. I think CDB is a much better player as town than to really think that my Titus-case was coming from scum.

Your case only became "an unpopular case that is clearly not gaining traction" after you made it and threw what you had at it. At the time, you weren't deliberately making an unpopular case (or at least I assume that your intention is not to explicitly confess to striving for apparently well-meaning irrelevance, though feel free to save us some time).

And, once again, I'll point out that I actually gave you some of the benefit of the doubt about that case - consider my appeal to you here. If all you had done was make that Titus case, I might not have voted for you. But the uneasiness on it didn't go well with my other stated reasons, especially when you refused to back down on it despite what I still believe are really strong points that flat-out contradicted your premises.

-1207 has CDB responding to GC pointing out that I never actually voted for Amy, which was another part of his argument. Nevertheless he accepts his wrongness, but his vote still remains on me. Good thing no one pressed the issue.

I will grant that I didn't spell this out as clearly as I thought I had, so let's do so now: this post in which I accept that you did not vote for Amy, just cheered on the wagon from the sidelines a lot, might have contained an unvote if I thought that the latter was a less suspicious activity than the former. In fact, it really only deepened my feeling that I was being egged on because it made your relationship to the Amy wagon weirder.

1327 shows CDB turning on scrambles when it is clear the town had begun to turn on scrambles. He gets in at #3 on the wagon, a perfect spot for scum.

A town player genuinely trying to figure out my alignment with interactions like this should be weighing it against a post like this in which I am practically begging for an excuse to get off the scrambles wagon. How does that fit into your 'trying to hop on for towncred' narrative?

[ChannelDelibird]

First things first, there is only one scum left in the game. Therefore it is literally impossible for you to be so simultaneously convinced that both Titus and I are scum. If you believe in your Titus case as strongly as you claim to do, then it does not make sense for you to be so sure that I am scum. Meanwhile, if you were town, on Lynch-2 with at least one player having expressed an interest on lynching you as one of our three remaining shots to nail the last scum, this would be the

last

time that you would want to abandon your Titus case. Given that there's a good chance that you'll die soon, the strongest advocate for your Titus case would die with you. This is when you have to continue to push it, not go in hard on another player. There's a pro-scum reason to do that (give impression of pro-town conviction by being active in trying to find the last scum, actually try to lynch player who might be more likely to gain traction than Titus) but not a pro-town one (abandon top scum suspect to allow everyone to continue to write her off as town).

I mean, picture the scene: We lynch you, you flip town. Next day, who do you think the town would need more help to lynch: I, who have been a semi-permanent contender for the chop thanks to various people's suspicions of Chaos, or Titus, who was pushed exclusively Yesterday by you and a dead scumbag? You have really betrayed your priorities here, and it's not to ensure that we lynch scum. It's to make a last-chance push to get the wagon off you.

[acryon]

I will try to contain my shock.

First things first, there is only one scum left in the game. Therefore it is literally impossible for you to be so simultaneously convinced that both Titus and I are scum. If you believe in your Titus case as strongly as you claim to do, then it does not make sense for you to be so sure that I am scum. Meanwhile, if you were town, on Lynch-2 with at least one player having expressed an interest on lynching you as one of our three remaining shots to nail the last scum, this would be the

last

time that you would want to abandon your Titus case. Given that there's a good chance that you'll die soon, the strongest advocate for your Titus case would die with you. This is when you have to continue to push it, not go in hard on another player. There's a pro-scum reason to do that (give impression of pro-town conviction by being active in trying to find the last scum, actually try to lynch player who might be more likely to gain traction than Titus) but not a pro-town one (abandon top scum suspect to allow everyone to continue to write her off as town).

I should have been more clear. I was writing that posts from the top to the bottom. Before I got to your case, I was reasonably sure that Titus or you were scum, most likely Titus. By the end, I am now confident that it is you.

-CDB then comes in looking town by voting Beli right off the bat, and provides a case to back it up.

I apologise.

Obviously no one is condemning anyone for acting town, but in the context of this game, you came in at a very convenient spot that allowed you avoid controversy and look really town.

-Post initial reads including scrambles as town. Here is an interesting piece. One of his primary reasons for town-reading scrambles is that he has kept firm on Beli for so long. Now this wouldn’t be suspicious if this read had come

after

the flip, because of course scrambles would get town-points for being firm on someone for so long that then flipped scum. But at this point, he hadn’t, so why is CDB giving him town-cred for it before the rest of us knew Beli’s alignment?

While I'll happily note that "compliments Scrambles for being so steadfast on Beli vote" is something for which I would probably suspect me too if I were looking for buddy interactions, it is important to point out that Belisarius's alignment was FUCKING OBVIOUS. Seriously, that was one of the easier votes I've had to make in a long time.

I disagree. While I obviously thought Beli was scum, I don't think it was obvious, or it wouldn't have taken us as long as it did to get there.

-In 1101, after not saying a word about me for a long time, he is now “increasingly sure” that I am scum. I already called out how this was odd right after he posted it, and it still strikes me so. To me, this transition from Amy to me was CDB hedging and planning for the future. He knew he had generated a decent bit of traction on an Amy-scum wagon, but wanted to make sure he had a future wagon set up as well, so he switches to me.

This is not an accurate representation of that post. It's obvious from my PEDIT that I was coming in to say that I was "reasonably sure" that you were my preferred lynch and then I explained here what about that ninjapost of yours made me bump up my suspicion in PEDIT.

My suspicion on you was not new at that point. I brought it up as soon as I replaced in, at exactly the same time that I first mentioned what bothered me about Amy. If I had been nefariously planning to set up a future wagon on you as well as Amy, then I had no need to switch to you at that point because I would already have had the necessary groundwork laid. And, given that the tone of my switch to you was "I am really creeped out by his relationship to the Amy wagon", I can't be pushing both of you at the same time because that suspicion is based on the notion that Amy is town.

I disagree, and don't think you had much of any groundwork laid. It wasn't until the point I mentioned where the groundwork began to be laid.

-He proceeds to never mention me again until 1140

Post where I say acryon is my preferred lynch: #1101, 4.59pm on Tuesday (I'll generously give you the extra 15 minutes from #1101 rather than #1104)
Post #1140: 6.52pm on Tuesday
Elapsed time: 1 hour, 53 minutes
Time in between: Thread explodes, I'm caught up responding to CKD, GC and Riddleton about my Amy case
Time of full post on why I'm voting acryon: 7.30pm

Conclusion: Your insinuation that I was hiding from you or whatever this quote is meant to imply is unfair at best, disingenuous and wilfully manipulative at worst.

I'll concede that it was unfair, and I didn't realize it was such a short actual time in between them.

where he asks

scrambles

what he thinks of me. This seems like a great opportunity to distance himself from scrambles by having scrambles disagree with him.

How am I supposed to know whether or not scrambles would disagree with me? It's a completely open-ended question. You think we spent the night colluding to create an idea whereupon I would push Amy strongly, then get cold feet and turn towards acryon instead, so that I could randomly give him an opportunity to disagree with me to distance ourselves from each other when either of us at some point gets lynched? Bearing in mind that YOU THINK TITUS IS THE SCUM, why is that a more likely explanation than "I was trying to develop my read on scrambles"?

I already explained the Titus situation above. In terms of scrambles, just a couple hours before your question he

said

he thought I was probably town. It doesn't take a genius to recognize what the answer to that question of yours was going to be, and what kind of effect it would create.

I think anyone that is town should look hard at my case on Titus and try to say that it would come from scum. I gain no benefit as scum by continuing to push on an unpopular case that is clearly not gaining traction. I think CDB is a much better player as town than to really think that my Titus-case was coming from scum.

Your case only became "an unpopular case that is clearly not gaining traction" after you made it and threw what you had at it. At the time, you weren't deliberately making an unpopular case (or at least I assume that your intention is not to explicitly confess to striving for apparently well-meaning irrelevance, though feel free to save us some time).

And, once again, I'll point out that I actually gave you some of the benefit of the doubt about that case - consider my appeal to you here. If all you had done was make that Titus case, I might not have voted for you. But the uneasiness on it didn't go well with my other stated reasons, especially when you refused to back down on it despite what I still believe are really strong points that flat-out contradicted your premises.

I knew I was making a case that may seem like a stretch to a lot of people, and when I have made similar cases in the past in other games, they similarly didn't gain traction. So I had an idea that it may be unpopular, but I believed in it all the same.

-1207 has CDB responding to GC pointing out that I never actually voted for Amy, which was another part of his argument. Nevertheless he accepts his wrongness, but his vote still remains on me. Good thing no one pressed the issue.

I will grant that I didn't spell this out as clearly as I thought I had, so let's do so now: this post in which I accept that you did not vote for Amy, just cheered on the wagon from the sidelines a lot, might have contained an unvote if I thought that the latter was a less suspicious activity than the former. In fact, it really only deepened my feeling that I was being egged on because it made your relationship to the Amy wagon weirder.

You should know that weird != scummy. I tend to not play around with my votes a lot in the late game. I place them when I am ready or really feel pressure is needed, but otherwise I tend to abstain.

1327 shows CDB turning on scrambles when it is clear the town had begun to turn on scrambles. He gets in at #3 on the wagon, a perfect spot for scum.

A town player genuinely trying to figure out my alignment with interactions like this should be weighing it against a post like this in which I am practically begging for an excuse to get off the scrambles wagon. How does that fit into your 'trying to hop on for towncred' narrative?

I'm sorry but that post is just another example that looks like a scum-team cooked it up in a lab to gain town-cred. It fits it perfectly.

Also, I didn't want to have to do this now, as I'm obviously dying tonight now, but I think we are getting too far off, I'm

town doc

.

My saves were CKD, CDB, and GreenCrayons.

[Green Crayons]

acryon and I have come to opposite conclusions on the scrambles/chaos interaction on D2 regarding the Beli vote.

I would appreciate Riddle's and Titus's interpretation of that interaction.

-----

vote staying on farside atm.

Her 1816 is bad.

- She lies to attack her attacker (me): both my Post 1757 and farside's Post 1803 pertained to her

failure to vote Beli

, not whether she was

against a beli lynch

. I haven't shifted my position on this, but farside states I have to suggest that I'm somehow evolving my suspicions as she shoots them down.
- Still hammers her "misquoting" defense, when I'm simply putting her quotes about what she thinks Beli-scum would do with what Beli-scum actually did, which points to her being scum.
- AtE all over the place.