Open 575: Friends & Enemies-Together At Last (OVER)

[Wisdom]

Do I detect a scumread on Malakittens or a tu quoque fallacy? Justify yourself, Newbie. Calling out hypocrisy is not a good response, as there are very very good reasons that Mala's town.

I'm just saying it's funny how I'm getting accused of bussing by Mala when the way she hammered VD was really odd. That's all. Nothing more, nothing less.

Vote: Wisdom

Don't get why you vote me after you've made such a revelation, but meh.

[Wisdom]

To be really blunt. I had just hammered someone who was town and I felt really shitty that my reads were so wrong, so horribly wrong that game. I had beat myself up and figured that fuck it I'm sure VDA is scum so I felt like hammering and doing something right for a change.

But yes please try to equate my hammer as scummy

You are changing your story here. First it was "Oh, I didn't see we had 12 hours, better than NL", now it's on purpose because you were sure he's scum.

Yeah.

[Wisdom]

I didn't accuse you of busing, are you reading my posts? You aren't even in my lynchpool today.

K
Confirmed newbie is scum with victor.

oops

[Wisdom]

Ergo I am confused why you're still worried about it.

The mistake is still valid for Riddleton-scum; I make a contrived case for my newbie partner to bus him and swim in the towncred after. As scum, I don't really need to scumhunt that much, so all cases, ISOs and meta will be less in-depth and researched. Hence why I could have easily slipped and made a contradiction regarding my push on Victor.

Paranoia is still a thing and in my experience easily wins games for scum. I just don't want that to happen for us if we get to LyLo.

I don't think Riddle is scum anymore. Why insist on this so much? Unless it's some twisted way to get cred, but eh

[Wisdom]

No, because you obv havent commented on the bulk of the mathdino posts that pretty much point straight to Wis-scum

wat
Mathdino only recently started considering his townread on me was wrong because of an interpretation of a Victor post he hadn't noticed. He nowhere said anything about me being scum.

[Wisdom]

Oh btw Mathdino, I just completed a game with SilverWolf scum. It was kind of multiball, so it might not be that useful, but in the endgame she gave reasons for doing things etc so you might want to look into that.

[Wisdom]

So why is Riddleton so hung up on it? Answer: He's advocating for a PL of himself because he knows that'll never happen, and it gives him towncred to talk about his own lynch.

Eh. I think that's kind of a stretch. I find it likely that scum would just stop talking about it after Victor flipped scum and thus proved their "mistake" null.

As for SilverWolf, in that game I linked I think someone who knew her said that she is very defensive when town, so dunno how much what you found applies here.

[Wisdom]

Regarding my meta, is there a distinction between 'being right about scumreads' and 'bussing partners'? The linj you've provided is consistent of my scumgame but I don't understand the conclusion drawn from it

Riddleton, all I remember from you this game day is you talking about yourself plus an unexplained vote on Mala. You were scumreading Victor and you got a lynch on him, shouldn't you be eager to lynch the rest of the scum?

[Wisdom]

3/5 of his votes were almost directly after my own votes and cases (the Mathdino vote was RVS wagon, the Mala vote was to get her to pitch in). Not once did he question my townread on him, and I think if he WERE scum, a fair amount of his behaviour was intended to manipulate me by validating basically all my reads.

The fact you voted them first does not mean much. In most of these cases I had suspicions before you, but wanted to explore the reads more before voting. Won't deny that I do consider your points and they affect my reads though.

I don't question your townread because I'm pretty sure you're town. You haven't questioned my townread either, have you?

[Wisdom]

And finally caught up. Please don't post 4 pages while I'm sleeping next time

The remaining scum are Mala and most likely acryon.

I already made it clear why that is, but I'll summarize again after Riddle posts his case on her.

VOTE: Mala

[Mathdino]

Lemme just say that if acryon flips scum, I'm going to eat my hat if Constantine didn't bus Victor and acryon to try to implicate me.
You haven't made your acryon case clear at all, Wisdom. And no, my townread isn't based on RVS. His behaviour toward Victor just seemed rather natural and not at all like distancing to me. I will, however, look over his meta in a sec.

On Riddleton, you've had a lot of qualms about his posts to not scumread him at this point, especially after yesterday. Is that only because he shares your scumread on Mala? Regardless, I think the game I linked to is rather different than one with basically the equivalent of 2 serial killers; no scumbuddies, more scumhunting. Everything Silver's done implies she's following Jingle's advice to a T. This is COMBINED with her ultra-sheepy play, combined with Victor's interactions with her. Seriously, read the meta I provided of him. He has a high, high tendency to try to link his scumbuddies with townspeople. He did that to Silver 3 times.

On Mala, your (can I call it a case? It's more like a ton of posts) ton of posts on her seem very much like cherry picking. Every apparent contradiction you've found is both out of context and ignores the valid reasons she's had for them given her thought process. I won't explain in her stead but her play is very consistent with being town.

On Newbie, are you unable to see how Mala might have arrived at a Victor/Newbie conclusion? Or the context in which she arrived at that conclusion? Furthermore, the fact that she

did

directly copy Mala's reasons here does not make her somehow townier than Mala for coming up with said reasons.
And don't worry, I'm not coming up with reasons to fit the read. I ISO'd Newbie and Victor after Mala's suggestion, and yes, Victor and Newbie are a very very possible scumteam. Much more possible than Victor/Mala, especially given the interactions I pointed out earlier.

On a preemptive note, I would really prefer this not become the Wisdom vs Mala show, since I'm currently seeing it as TvT. Is there actual legitimacy in you two apparently being able to read each other?

[Mathdino]

Forgot to say this in the Mala part, but I think you're taking your reaction to the hammer and blowing it up to find everything she does as scummy. Fitting the evidence to the reads, in essence.

[Wisdom]

On Newbie, are you unable to see how Mala might have arrived at a Victor/Newbie conclusion? Or the context in which she arrived at that conclusion? Furthermore, the fact that she did directly copy Mala's reasons here does not make her somehow townier than Mala for coming up with said reasons.
And don't worry, I'm not coming up with reasons to fit the read. I ISO'd Newbie and Victor after Mala's suggestion, and yes, Victor and Newbie are a very very possible scumteam. Much more possible than Victor/Mala, especially given the interactions I pointed out earlier.

Yes, I'm unable to see that. Newbie was saying the same things Mala was. It makes no sense for Mala to attack her for that.

Newbie is town, especially her insistence to be told what exactly makes her Victor's buddy screams town. The only thing I don't like is how she doesn't attack Mala for this and just states that she finds it hypocritical without taking any further action.

It seems to me that you

are

interpreting things in a way that fits your reads. Victor/Mala is the most obvious possibility to me.

[Wisdom]

Forgot to say this in the Mala part, but I think you're taking your reaction to the hammer and blowing it up to find everything she does as scummy. Fitting the evidence to the reads, in essence.

Nope, everything she's doing is scummy, as mentioned. I feel the urge listing everything scummy she has done again, but I don't want to do this before Riddle posts his case.

[Not_Mafia]

VOTE: Wisdom

Mala push sucks

[Wisdom]

Is there actual legitimacy in you two apparently being able to read each other?

Yes, on my part at least. Here you go:

Micro 181 - correctly scumread her, shouted to town not to tunnel on me and lynch her in lylo, wasn't listened to, she won
Open 514 - correctly scumread her, shouted to town to lynch her, wasn't listened to, she killed me N1 and ended up winning
Newbie 1425 - correctly scumread her, got her partner lynched, she killed me, she was lynched right afterwards
Mini 1524 - incorrectly tunneled on her, realized my mistake and strongly townread her for the rest of the game
All other games with town-Mala - correctly townread her

I've never incorrectly read scum-Mala.

[Mathdino]

Mala looks pretty damn townie off her opening posts. I think I should be able to metaread you fairly well now, so I last long enough I will see if your scum.

354 - Calling 262 coaching from Mala is a massive stretch. In fact I've spotted a few spots where I think there might be coaching but this is not one of them. Also roles that benefit from being lynched are called Jesters. You'll note there's none in this game if you checked the setup.

That said, I also don't like how Mala has fallen into the background. The last few posts have a distinct feel of holding back.

This, along with the scumgame of Victor/Mala which I'm not sure you've read, is why Mala is town.
Scum tend to distance each other early on and then either townread or outright bus. If you don't agree with that, well, that's what Victorscum does.

Victor, he practically buddied Mala early on and appealed to her keeping him around. The latter part of that first quote means that if Victor and Mala are both town and Victor can read her, it'd be in Mala's best interests to not kill him off so that way Victor can prove to everyone why Mala's town.

Then he mudslings her without anything really coming of it. Note however that his suspicion isn't sheeping other people's suspicion; Victor was (I believe) the first person to point out what he pointed out.

Does this read as scum to scum behaviour to you, or scum to town?

[Wisdom]

VOTE: Wisdom

Mala push sucks

nope, try again

[Wisdom]

Mala looks pretty damn townie off her opening posts. I think I should be able to metaread you fairly well now, so I last long enough I will see if your scum.

354 - Calling 262 coaching from Mala is a massive stretch. In fact I've spotted a few spots where I think there might be coaching but this is not one of them. Also roles that benefit from being lynched are called Jesters. You'll note there's none in this game if you checked the setup.

That said, I also don't like how Mala has fallen into the background. The last few posts have a distinct feel of holding back.

This, along with the scumgame of Victor/Mala which I'm not sure you've read, is why Mala is town.
Scum tend to distance each other early on and then either townread or outright bus. If you don't agree with that, well, that's what Victorscum does.

Victor, he practically buddied Mala early on and appealed to her keeping him around. The latter part of that first quote means that if Victor and Mala are both town and Victor can read her, it'd be in Mala's best interests to not kill him off so that way Victor can prove to everyone why Mala's town.

Then he mudslings her without anything really coming of it. Note however that his suspicion isn't sheeping other people's suspicion; Victor was (I believe) the first person to point out what he pointed out.

Does this read as scum to scum behaviour to you, or scum to town?

This is why you're reading things in a way that suits your reads. There are more ways to read this:

Victor gives a townread on Mala, stating that he'll be keeping an eye on her so that he can change that later if suspicion rises on her. The next post is consistent with his townread. Then he states some mild suspicion on her having to do with her abscence. He does that when it's safe, as Mala has little if any suspicion on her.

There is zero reason to think that those can't be scum-scum interactions.

[Wisdom]

Mala played a scumgame with Victor; check my metacase on him. In it, Victor displayed the EXACT same nonchalance about being at L-1, except instead of someone hammering, he survived to endgame. Had I known about this at the time, I'd have offered to hammer as well.

Okay. Now consider Mala being his buddy. She posts, as Newbie pointed out, that she does not like the Victor wagon and she'd like him to speak. She does so 4 times. Then, when see sees that Victor is not doing it, she feels "fuck, he's being obvscum, like he did in that previous game" and buses him, not realizing that not everyone will think of that.

Her initial reasoning is "I thought we were at deadline", not "I am sure he is scum". She changes to this reasoning later. Yet she attacks Newbie for being sure he is scum, like she was.

Then today she completely forgets about acryon and attacks me out of nowhere, after listing me as nulltown in the end of day. None of this makes any sense. That's why I think acryon is probably the third, because this convenient forgetting about prior scumreads happens a lot for scum.

[Wisdom]

My points are:

A) The certainty on the Victor wagon is unnatural. Victor had done very few things for someone to think he is scum. Since there were more people that expressed such a thought and I can't argue all are scum, maybe I'm wrong somewhere, but this is how I feel and Mala expressing this certainty feels terrible to me.
B) The changed reasoning for the hammer. I would buy that she mistook when the deadline is and hammered to prevent a NL, because I've seen such things happening, especially from people who aren't that active at the time due to being busy and stuff. Yet this changes to "I was frustrated, I was sure he's scum, so I hammered". Why bring up the deadline mistake in the first place if that's the case? Why not give this as the original reasoning?
C) The hammer in general. Mala wanted Victor to post stuff, we were about to get a deadline extension, meaning he would get the chance to post, yet she hammers. The meta about Victor posting similarly in a previous game in Mala's prescence only make me more sure that Mala panicked about Victor being obvious scum here.
D) The shifts in reads. acryon completely disappears from her scumlist, despite being her focus yesterday. I suddenly become obvscum, while being nulltown in the end of D1. I can't accept "the flip changed things" either, because supposedly she was sure about Victor flipping scum so her twilight reads most likely took that into account.
E) The Mathdino manipulating. She makes it appear that Mathdino is having similar reads to her and arrived to those following the same thoughts as her, when Mathdino actually has different reads. I can't help but interpret that as her trying to push Mathdino into agreeing with her reads ("hey buddy, we think alike, sheep me")
F) Pushing Newbie for something she was herself doing, aka stating that Victor is likely flipping scum. I recently learned this is called projection and scum like to use it.
G) Her read on me. Town Mala should not be null on me for this long, let alone scumread me with such certainty. I understand this is meta and maybe not useful to you, but it factors in my scumread on her a lot.
H) Her general play this game does not give me the Mala-town feelings it should. Same as above in regards to meta.

I really wanted to see what Riddle had to say before I made this case, but it seems my catch up posts did nothing so here you go.

[Mathdino]

A. While I didn't agree with the Victor wagon, I could see how people would arrive at that conclusion.
B. I don't buy this point yet, but I want to see Mala's answer.
C. Going to respond to this along with 1094: The deadline extension and wanting Victor to post seems like a good point. However, the whole "fuck, he's being obvscum, like he did in that previous game" seems kind of contrived, IMO. Going back to consistency here, while whatever made her panic isn't necessarily inconsistent with Victor being scum, I don't think it makes her scum.
So wait, did she hammer to shut him up, or because she panicked about him being obvscum? I don't really understand you here; what reason was there to believe that people would suspect her for not hammering Victor there? What reason was there to believe someone else wouldn't hammer him? Does she really bus like that just for the helluvit?
D. Same as B. I do want to say that it's clear she did her homework with Victor's scum meta over the night.
E. We arrived at different conclusions using the same reasoning. I can see how she might be able to use my reasoning to prove her own reads, but I don't see how she'd think I'd just change my reads like that after already arriving at my conclusion.
F. The order is certainly important here. If she was, say, the 3rd person to think that, and Newbie was the 4th, sure it'd be scummy as hell. But this is 1st and 2nd. Different.
G/H. Good points if you're town.

Overall, I'm not prepared to discuss this in full without Mala's response, but I don't totally buy it yet, probably for the same reason I townread you yesterday: Mala is very correct in that our thought process last night was similar. However, the whole meta and you two being able to read each other is starting to make me consider making this day a 1v1 between you and Mala if Mala's response makes it obvious this isn't TvT.

Lol, I wanted to see what Riddle had to say too. Kinda wanted your case on acryon first tbh.

[Wisdom]

So wait, did she hammer to shut him up, or because she panicked about him being obvscum? I don't really understand you here; what reason was there to believe that people would suspect her for not hammering Victor there? What reason was there to believe someone else wouldn't hammer him? Does she really bus like that just for the helluvit?

What I'm saying is, Mala was waiting for him to post something to get out of the lynch position, and when that wasn't happening, she bussed him because she thought he's so scummy that he's not evading the lynch anymore, so she might as well get some cred. The thing is, he wasn't really scummy, that was just in her mind, because of that previous game.

[Mathdino]

Ugh, see, again, your "that was just in her mind" seems way more contrived than Occam's Razor, which is that she just got pinged real bad from Victor and hammered based on emotions.
You'll understand if I'm not confident enough in your ability to psychoanalyse her to take you at your word here, I hope.

[Wisdom]

I don't have a case on acryon. The sole reason I think he might be the third scum is because of how Mala's scumread on him disappeared. Well, and PoE. Other than Not_Mafia and maybe blindmewithscience, everyone else looks town enough.