Newbie 1561: Puppies! (Game Over)

[singersigner]

vote: mallowgeno

You probably don't really know/remember me, but you were in quadz's first game on site, and I remember you from watching his game. Crazy!

[singersigner]

O_o

Wow, I think that may be the quickest a Newbie Game has ever gotten to a nitty gritty discussion point edging out of RVS.

Also, he said the game "usually" starts with RVS, not that it

should

.

It's also a terrible vote. You should at least explain

why

it makes him more likely to be scum.

Though it should be known that this point is mute because if he didn't officially confirm because he was talking in his PT, as a mod I'd consider that a form of confirming nowadays, as a way to sidestep that kind of "confirmation" issue. Just saying.

Regardless, strong start by copper. A little aggressive but not overtly so. Asking the right questions, even if it seems as though he's trying to trap Cabd since that's pretty specific meta.

[singersigner]

Hmm, that's really interesting... I see no reason he should care as town...but then why would he care as scum?

@Paul...do you really think he's playing dumb? What's the scum motivation for playing dumb? Or do you think it's his way of saying "so who's scum" as is fairly common to do tongue in cheek?

[singersigner]

What exactly are you waiting for? Do you have anything to say now?

[singersigner]

I agree ++--, so it looks to me like ++-- is thinker and Paul is a spontaneous player, reads on them should be developped according to these baselines.

I'd like you to elaborate on this. What makes you think this is the way to develop reads on them, and have you been able to do so?

@Paul
That's probably fairly accurate.

What was your impression of Singer saying I had a strong start but might be trying to trap Cabd because I asked him for a fairly specific meta?

I didn't see an answer to this, but I'd like to know your own opinion.

@Eric
Is it natural to try to lead as town?

It's natural to do whatever comes naturally. I don't know anyone's meta, so perhaps this is what he does.

However, to be super-cautious of not leading does not seem to be natural.

I don't know if this is what he's doing, since I don't know how he usually plays. Also, like I said earlier, I think it's a bit early for anything but extremely vague reads. I am not saying he's scum, or even suspicious. I'm just making an observation to help move things along, which (I think) is the point of the RVS. If I'm doing this wrong, tell me

I like the bolded. Not only do I agree with it, but I like how you're analyzing the game so far. Don't hold back observations. That being said, the whole "baiting" thing by withholding information really pisses me off because it's like "oh I was purposefully acting scummy or being coy DUH" which is just a lame excuse for "oh shit you caught me." You haven't done this, I was just making a point based off of previous posts.

Singer, did you read all the mod posts at the very start of the thread or no?

Yes? I actually had to go back to see if I missed anything...why?

Is town_Singer more likely to a) pick up on your play and keep quiet about it to see if someone jumps on the wagon or b) is she going to be oblivious about it and continue to scumhunt, if a) then her behavior here is more scum indicative, if b) towny.

I have no idea what you're referring to here.

I'm pretty town.

[singersigner]

Don't hold back observations. That being said, the whole "baiting" thing by withholding information really pisses me off because it's like "oh I was purposefully acting scummy or being coy DUH" which is just a lame excuse for "oh shit you caught me."

Why would withholding information in order to get better reads be acting scummy?

1. Because it pisses people like me off when trying to read people with all the information I have.
2. Because I'm specifically commenting on being called out for coy/non-committal behavior and then dismissing it as doing it on purpose. If you're not committing and beating around the bush or saying you're doing something to "bait" someone, it's basically giving yourself an excuse to do something scummy "on purpose" and get away with it, which I don't ever trust.

Just wanted to clarify that the scum and dead threads will be in QuickTopics, not private topics. While I like PTs, there was a bit of a mix-up at the beginning of the game as to which one to use and

we're going with QTs

.

Though it should be known that this point is mute because if he didn't officially confirm because he was talking in

his PT

, as a mod I'd consider that a form of confirming nowadays, as a way to sidestep that kind of "confirmation" issue. Just saying.

Also it's "moot" not "mute" but that's neither here nor there.

Ah, wouldn't I just love that to clear me?? But I just defaulted to PT specifically because Mina and I had just talked about how it still says QT in the mod PMs that are sent out to start a game (or role PMs, I can't remember which). And since the site rolled over to PTs as a standard, she wanted to make sure it was just an oversight, and then that it didn't matter because it was up to the mod's discression. Little did I know she was talking about this game! But yeah...you probably shouldn't read too much into it unless you want to?

That's weird...how do you tell someone not to confirm you as town because of a weak reason to confirm you...as town...

[singersigner]

@++--

However, at the very same time, EXACTLY by pointing out what you waited for, you ruined the whole point of waiting, didn't you? I understand that you were specifically asked about what are you waiting for, but, at the same time, maybe you could've said it with less details?

It's possible, it gave me 3 early town reads so that's not a bad start, also interacting with Cabd forced or resulted in a read he gave on me which is not bad info, I can still examine Singer based on how she replies. You could have also thought about why Choof was painting himself as scum more, no? It's useless to second guess the play of others, unless you think what I did was scum motivated?

Okay, I get that you're basically trying to construct baits

Why are you still voting for him then?

Wait, what am I supposed to respond to?

[singersigner]

Oh, um, I'd be willing to vote choof. Kind of seems like a goofy newb who doesn't know how to play scum.

[singersigner]

My bad! Ended up at sunday dinner with the in-laws (or soon to be in-laws anyways)

117 pings. A lot.

Same. Any follow up on that, or just a fun fact?

[singersigner]

I said I was town once and that turned into "a bunch of 'I'm town please notice this'"? Does. Not. Compute.

Also, you think I wouldn't have gotten away with playing dumb and manipulated cabd into believing I townslipped? Lol. That's cute.

[singersigner]

What you've said so far makes sense to me, I wouldn't mind a readlist, or reads on the players you have them on, though.

Don't ask for/give reads lists. That's like asking for scum to know exactly who they can get rid of to either frame or protect themselves and have it easily dismissed as WIFOM because it's public knowledge. It's a nice reference page for them as opposed to actually making them work for it.

Oh i didn't even realize that was what 117 was when i was reading, my bad.

Also 2 people out of the whole town addressing me is kinda pathetic, no one is scumhunting regarding me.

You just got prodded and you're offended that people aren't trying to scumhunt you in particular? Wtf, dude...

Copper's 122 is interesting. I really don't like the idea of baiting, or excusing sloppy/scummy behavior as baiting. That's just like asking scum to use that as an excuse every time they're called out on something. It's also slightly concerning that you have so much insight to choof's intent with that baiting. Which still it just dismissed as "oh of course you were going to wagon me for my behavior." And then paraphrasing a vote in a specifically scummily worded way to make it look worse from the voter?

[singersigner]

@Singer
Don't give your interpretation of how to play as gospell in a newbie game, to counteract what I personally believe is complete BS:
Readlists are amazing tools to scumhunt because scum have to create a track record of who they are scumreading and who they are townreading during the game, either sheeping, making up reads or giving true information, which highly increases the chances of them slipping up in some way and / or of figuring out who they are based on PoE.

I think you and I are going to have a problem reading each other just based on playstyle clashes.

I actually find that scum tend to be more stubborn in their reads anyway. They don't really need to keep track because tunnel vision is easy (for both town and scum, mind you). But the fact that scum need to be flexible to vote doesn't mean that they will be held accountable for that one by a reads list. I get what you're saying, I just think they do more harm than good for town, so you shouldn't do it unless you're getting mislynched anyway (though scum will do it for wifom but I digress).

That be said, I initially thought your last statement was a slip because of you knowing I'm town and will need to read you, as opposed to scum who already knows your alignment, but now I think it's null because you implied you'd have to read me, too. Any comment on my thoughts about 122

[singersigner]

I've actually addressed both point a and point b when I expressed concern that you 1. Deduced that it was baiting (because I disagreed), and 2. Defended it.

I think he's being goofy and wafting it off as being on purpose, which I explained is a bullshit excuse (=thinking both of you are wrong in doing so). With your point b, that would require my assumption that you're town to deduce anything about his play instead of just knowing the implications behind it, so your motives being town or scum would've already been deduced. Having expressed a town read on you previously, this was me questioning that read.

I was asking you to comment on it specifically to find out more information on your motives, so...your move.

[singersigner]

Basically I could go either way on him being inexperienced and from another site, though leaning toward being caught scum, but questioning why you were so quick to defend him in such a thorough manner.

[singersigner]

I did not get any seriousness or sustenance from those posts at all so that point is invalid with me.

[singersigner]

@Mod finals are done now

That's great maybe you can play this game now? I'm not moving my vote until you do.

Well that and O think you're town. But mostly I have nothing but your inactivity to go on and that's not cool man.

[singersigner]

I didn't say posting reads was a bad thing. That's pretty wildly taking what I said out of context, so next time you try to paraphrase something (incorrectly), try quoting so it won't confuse people. I said reads LISTS are terrible. I've always thought so, and probably always will. The difference between read lists, and reads in general, is that it benefits scum more than town.

I'm also calling bullshit that your nightkills weren't influenced by town's reads, list or otherwise. You either kills someone based off of what other people feel about them, or how they feel about you, or how you think other people might feel about you if they die, or wifom based on the above. Every choice scum makes boils down to reads or PRs and I doubt you're that accurate with PR hunting.

[singersigner]

@copper...you're more than welcome to ask how he feels on specific players in you think it's my fault he won't volunteer information on ALL OF THEM AT ONCE ZOMGZ. And that's the fucking point of being scum. You have to make up reads. Giving a list they have to change later is not some miraculous thing townies have invented to trip them up. It's part of the fucking game. Scum are more likely to be stubborn and stick to their reads because they have insight to everyone's play already. Town are the ones who change because they're in the dark. I don't even know why that's something I have to explain. Making scum commit to reads D1 (when no one can btw) is like saying "here, hope your mislynches work out!"

[singersigner]

I mean, I don't know about you, but I find myself wrong at least 50% of the time, so I'm constantly having to change or evolve my reads. Maybe I just have higher expectations for people who play scum, but there are certain things that seem like a standard of a player, regardless of alignment. If you can't do that as scum, then what CAN you do?

I see your point about reads evolving based on the knowledge that someone's town, but that's going to be true whether they're asked to give a full list all at once or not. Have you ever heard of confirmation bias? That's the town form of what scum do all the time, so we just have to deal with it, I guess?

But yeah, I hope you've concluded that you'll never get a full reads list from me. Whether or not you find it scummy that other people won't/don't is up to you.

[singersigner]

@Singer
Pretty much, I am certainly not going to call you scum for it and I already meta checked you for consistency and it matches, although I am going to disagree with you. My peeve her is I think it is sending the wrong message to newer players, that giving reads in general is bad, which I hope you will join me in saying is not the case at all.

I realize it's sending the wrong message and I apologize. I only recently started playing mafia consistently again, and forget how different newbie game are from regular games with people you're more familiar with. I still don't agree with reads lists, but I won't condone hiding reads on purpose. The unfortunate part of that is I'm a very passive player, and it can take me a while to process how I feel. I think voting for pressure is good, but I hardly do it myself, lol.

Singer, why did you imply someone was dumb for thinking you couldn't brush off the potential town-slip as legitimate instead of explain why it would be silly not to explain why the town-slip was not legitimate? (This question makes sense in my head, but I'll reiterate if it doesn't.)

It doesn't. But I will explain what I was actually doing in case that was confusing. I was implying they were silly to think my scum game wasn't good enough to pretend that was a town slip on accident and get away with it. Actually, I had kind of considered doing that anyway to ensure an accurate read, but felt that would be more dishonest, and, well, integrity and all. If it blew up in my face then that would be pretty shitty for nit only one, but possibly two mislynches to come from it.

@Drixx...what exactly are you talking about? Could you repost the last half of your post with either posts or links to what you're commenting on?

[singersigner]

Eh, fair enough. But how do you be honest without telling someone they shouldn't use that as a reason to read you correctly? I felt explaining the mixup 'at length' was relevant to why something I could've easily allowed to have turned into a towntell for me, couldn't actually be taken as such.

Also, I almost always make some sort of declaration about how town I am.

[singersigner]

Something actually concerns me about Drixx's declaration that what I did was WIFOM. I don't actually see what he's referring to. I said, "no don't confirm me as town because this is why the term was fresh in my mind, but as your read would be accurate, um great". What about that is WIFOM?

I appreciate that he can't really comment on his predecessor, though I think it's fruitless to assume there's no reason to continue scumreading the slot based off of something his predecessor did. Like Cabd said, the role PM doesn't change just because it's a different person. That being said, I'm curious as to what Cabd is withholding.

I think Jason is town.

[singersigner]

Uh...I didn't think so? Like, I only said it because I just had a conversation with the new LM (having previously been one) specifically about this. I did read the OPs and new it was QT for this particular game but didn't connect the dots until Cabd called me out on it (I was also in three newbie games at the time so take that as you will...). I don't really think it's fair to ask me to comment on my "slip" any further because that WILL be WIFOM.

Jason's 245 is pretty town. I'll explain why I think so more when I'm not on my break.

[singersigner]

It was via PM between myself, Mina, and VRK. Specifically because VRK and I never changed the original wording of the mafia sample PM from 'QT' to 'PT' as is now the standard. She was wondering if it mattered because it made a difference (for this game) on what mods would be allowed to do with their scum team. I really regret saying anything about it now but I felt it relevant to explaining why I made a conscious effort to say PT instead of QT because I was referring back to that conversation that occurred literally less than 48 hours before I replaced into this game. It was neither a town slip nor a scum slip.

Like, you either trust me or you don't. I don't really have another answer for you. *shrug*

And yes, I did find it laughable that upon seeing an opening to 'confirm' myself as town, someone wouldn't believe my ability to do so. I'm pretty good at being mafia last I remember. I don't think it would be that hard to do again.

[singersigner]

Maybe, just maybe, she

doesn't

see it. That could be a thing. I didn't see it at first.

Also, join date =/= level of expertise/experience, so unless you have meta of SS absolutely killing it in several games I'd suggest you find a different avenue of attack because, right now, I think you're full of shit.

I actually had two back to back newbie games that kind of went to my head because the third was absolute shit. I'm too prone to sluffing off scumminess as newb town. Those were earlier this summer, though. And then I joined three games at once.

I'm also not known for being good, and it's a pretty common misconception for ICs or Forum Mods to be associated with skill. Don't get me wrong, I'm not terrible, but my scum game is far better than my town game. Which is weird because I hate being scum.

[singersigner]

I must say I disagree with you on one point, Mr. Wazza. It is your job to convince the town that your vote is in the right place. Good town players find scum; great town players convince the town to lynch scum. There's more merit in your opinion than you're giving it. I'm not sure whether this is because its a weak read or whether you actually believe that all you have to do is vote scum and hope that people just fall in line.

Something's just not adding up for me.

UNVOTE: ++--

My job isn't to convince the town to lynch my reads, I can lead them that way by showing how i think someone is scum, that doesn't mean it's a thing i have to do.

I'd rather all the townies do their own reading, because that means we have more people actually trying to find scum, and if we all line up that means we are more likely to be right.

This post reads town to me, as it shows an apathy toward the scum agenda: obtaining mislynches at all costs. It also ensures that he's very conscious of other people agreeing with the same conclusion, not blindly sheeping with no responsibility. It keeps town accountable for their actions/reads.

[singersigner]

I think it really boils down to this: you either believe me, or you don't. You either trust that I'm a pretty transparent player and honest about my play, or you don't. THAT is where I can see the wifom but it sure as fuck isn't because I made it that way. YOU have been the one harping on about how it could either be scheming scum or oblivious town. Like, the only way you could blame me for it being wifom is if you think I did it on purpose, which you are doing. I really don't know what else to tell you.

[singersigner]

It just seems weird that you automatically jump to "scum buddies" when someone disagrees with that assessment.

[singersigner]

I must say I disagree with you on one point, Mr. Wazza. It is your job to convince the town that your vote is in the right place. Good town players find scum; great town players convince the town to lynch scum. There's more merit in your opinion than you're giving it. I'm not sure whether this is because its a weak read or whether you actually believe that all you have to do is vote scum and hope that people just fall in line.

Something's just not adding up for me.

UNVOTE: ++--

My job isn't to convince the town to lynch my reads, I can lead them that way by showing how i think someone is scum, that doesn't mean it's a thing i have to do.

I'd rather all the townies do their own reading, because that means we have more people actually trying to find scum, and if we all line up that means we are more likely to be right.

This post reads town to me, as it shows an apathy toward the scum agenda: obtaining mislynches at all costs. It also ensures that he's very conscious of other people agreeing with the same conclusion, not blindly sheeping with no responsibility. It keeps town accountable for their actions/reads.

I disagree with your read on his apathy post being a town read. I dislike the last part of that first statement. "That doesn't mean it's a thing i have to do." ... That sort of apathy towards the idea of building a case and convincing townies doesn't sit right with me.

When you've found scum, you need to convince others,

especially because in a majority of cases, there will be a team of scum, and they can work to discredit your observations. (See: Hostile Intent calling me full of shit and making things up to discredit my argument against you.)

That's one way of doing it, sure. You seem to disagree with the approach more than anything. What exactly doesn't "sit right"?

[singersigner]

@SS RE: 286 - Another false assertion. Hostile Intent came after me aggressively while simultaneously declaring you townie. I gave more than one possibility for that. Scum partners is a possibility (but that would be a fairly bold day 1 play). It's also possible that HI is scum and knows you're town and can thus aggressively defend you and gain town cred should we see you flip town. So far as I can recall, HI hasn't given any reasoning for why you are town, so the defense doesn't seem to be sourced.

My original intent in pointing out what I saw in my original read through was to get responses. SS's responses reinforced the scum read. SS at this point is essentially only speaking when someone else has made a defense for her. If I understand "sheeping" as a concept, isn't that what it is?

I mean, you did just respond to my assertation that Jason is town, so that plus the fact that mostly everyone is talking about me seems pretty reasonable that "most" of my responses are about me are for selfish reasons. You say that you think he's defending his scum buddies but could also be defending me as scum who knows I am town (both scenarios imply HI is scum, none of which imply you think he's town). Is it not unreasonable that I would then conclude that your continued pressure/vote on me assumes you're claiming we're scum buddies?

[singersigner]

I'll point out that I'm very conscientious of my vote remaining on mallowgeno. I find his contributions to this game to be quite lacking, and feel as though his excuses are wearing thin. I'm not ok with letting that slid through the day.

My point was that you seemed perturbed by the fact that I noticed you continue to imply both of us being scum, originally scum buddies, and now saying that we're independently scummy but I'm scummier and he's obly scummy because of interactions with me... I'm still not getting your thoughts process.

Though, Cabd, didn't you comment on the amished tell? If that no longer applies, what do you continue to find scummy about Drixx/Paul's slot?

[singersigner]

Where is the town motivation exactly? You could be a little more specific.

[singersigner]

Why do you like your vote so much? I addressed this earlier. Why did Pauk do that is irreconcilable that Drizx hadn't made up for. Alternatively, why hasn't Drixx made up for it?

[singersigner]

And that's enough for you to have a firmer read on him than any other player in the game? How do you feel about mallow, who's also been less substantial than most?

[singersigner]

As of less than a page ago the only person voting Deixx was you. Your point? I find it hard to believe you have nothing substantial to say about anything he's said so far past "your predecessor was more scummy than this other person who is also STILL in the game" (implying a less than committed ability to contribute in any way substantially).

[singersigner]

What do you think of mallow?

[singersigner]

I'd be willing to lunch EW or ++--. Not in support of the Drixx wagon. Mallow is because when he IS contributing, is shallow and unsubstantial. His activity level is only supported by his unofficial V/LA (coming back to say "well you should've known I wouldn't be around") and his reaction to what I assume was his misunderstanding of why I was keeping my vote on him, though I'll let him speak to that since I haven't brought it up til now. I'm sorry he's sick but that doesn't negate what he could've/should've been doing until now when he knew what he signed up for.

[singersigner]

Why would you love to see them shift to mallow when you've spent the majority of your time pressuring me?

[singersigner]

A couple of things for Drixx:
1. You were definitely the one who brought up the possibility of us being a scum team first. In fact you made it seem like it was at least 75% of your theory of why HI was defending me. You bring it up more than anyone else in posts 279, 281, and 283, and seem to suggest in at least two of them that you can't see any other reason for HI defending me other than the ultimate conclusion that he is scum (in either scenario you suggest). I understand you did not mean to suggest that was a main reason for scumreading HI, but that cétainly does not mean we were in the wrong to assume that's where you were headed.
2. You've expressed a stream-of-consciousness/volunteering thoughts type of posting, and don't hold back when it comes to accusing people of twisting your intent because you haven't explicitly stated something, but it seems fairly unreasonable to assume that we should just "get" your intent with suggesting votes go toward mallow without stating it.
3. You seem to freely offer statements like 'twisting my words' and 'another false assertion' without recognizing that's exactly how it's felt this whole time with your accusations of me. I can't quite parse it through, but I don't think it's scummy? It seems more like confirmation bias than anything.

[singersigner]

Oy, mallow, is that all you got right now?

What makes sense about EW's 200? What don't you like about copper's response? Now's not the time to hold back, and you in particular are not really in a position to do so.

[singersigner]

To answer the theory claim...it's is 99% better than not for town to claim at L-1 (with intent to hammer..without...debatable), because either you save a PR from a lynch and they get NKed, meaning someone else is lynched and it gives town more information (forcing scum to potential kill someone they otherwise wouldn't have), or you are a VT and potentially still get lynched, but knowing that we're not risking lynched a PR at town's behalf.

But yeah, VT claims don't always get lynched at L-1, but more often than not they do because it's assurance that a PR isn't getting lynched and maybe it's scum still BSing their way through the game.

[singersigner]

I'm gunna take a wild guess and say it's mallow and EW. This is officially stating intent to hammer. I will be around all day regardless of if he comes back to claim. To be clear, I do not expect a claim or mad dash to find another lynch. I expect him and mallow to come back and defend themselves and offer up what they have to say about the state of the game if for some reason EW flips town.

Though...if EW flips scum there's no doubt in my mind that mallow is scum avoiding his wagon.

[singersigner]

The only thing that would prevent me from hammering is if you yourself could give me a viable wagon/alternative by offering up a well thought-out case on anyone but yourself being town, because right now, that was not the response of someone who genuinely wants to leave the rest of us with as much to work with as possible if you're town.

[singersigner]

I mean, I'm more than happy to lynch mallowgeno instead, but EW doesn't even seem to want to support that to save his own life. That either means he's willing to sacrifice himself for someone he believes his scum (Jason), or in all likeliness, is unwilling to lynch his buddy.

More clarity after a flip, I suppose.

[singersigner]

SO LET'S PLEASE LYNCH MALLOW FIRST KTHX

Like, I've been pretty clear on what I expect/want to happen today. It's pretty telling that mallow has yet to come in and hammer EW, too.

[singersigner]

@Singer
If you also really think EW is town I'm down to lynch Mallow instead unless he comes up with the goods.

I'm more confident he's town after that.

As for his concerns, I understand how he's getting confused with mixed messages. Being at L-1 does change things, especially this close to deadline. I was willing to lynch you regardless of offering up reads because it's in town's best interest to have that information upon the day ending, and since we are hours from deadline, with you still being the only person at L-1 and no one else showing any signs of being around, yet, I would still hammer you with that being the case. A Jason lynch isn't viable today because not enough people have expressed interest for it, so by keeping your vote there to make a point about how he's your strongest read, you were essentially letting yourself get lynched [knowing you're town] instead of supporting a lynch on someone [you don't know is town]. (brackets are for emphasis with an assumption you're town)

But like I said, I have always preferred a mallow lynch first. Now trying to figure out scum motivation for him avoiding hammering you, though, if you're NOT scum buddies...

Again, we're working blindly right now.

Preview Edit...
@cabd...I don't believe anyone specifically asked for a claim, unless I've missed a post. Do you think he's doing this on purpose? Do you have nothing else to say about the lengthy conversation of the day?

[singersigner]

Mallow gave an unprompted town read on Singer when she was being heavily scumread, he did the same with EW and hinted that he was starting to scumread me and I did not make a case on him, you were saying?

I read that as more scummy because it felt like he was trying to maintain what I think he misinterpreted as a townread on him from me (which wasn't there). It felt like he was buy points from someone he needed on his side.

[singersigner]

At this point, I'd rather lynch Mallow because he's scummy. I'd follow through on a deadline lynch on EW for information. I think you're right that we won't get a whole lot of information if mallow flips scum, but then...we'd be down one scum so it really shouldn't matter? If EW flipped scum, then sure we'd also be down one scum, but with the information you think we'd get over mallow's flip either way, wouldn't you agree that it will still be there tomorrow? I just don't think he's scum.

[singersigner]

Ahh, like 75-80%? I have a theory on a potential scum buddy now that I just townread EW like a boss but that's a little more far-fetched and I think it should be wait to be said until a confirmed flip.

I'm probably more sure of EW being town than mallow being scum, to be honest.

[singersigner]

I mean...it's hours to go...

You also have a few things you could address, don't you think? Why are you concerning yourself with prods without commenting on what's going on right now?

[singersigner]

No one asked him to claim. Do you think he should've known to do that?
(this is the second time I've asked in case you were looking for something to comment on)

[singersigner]

Regarding voting rules on mafiascum, we have a simple system where if nobody is hammered (put to a majority of players casting votes against them) then the day ends in a no lynh, no matter how close the votes were to achieving that lynch. This is why I advised getting a wagon to L-1 a day or two in advance, to avoid a no lynch.

Which we did, and now we're here, on the cusp of changing our minds. Are you suggesting we follow through with a lynch anyway? Your L-1 vote wasn't accompanied by a request to claim, though admittedly that holds less power than my intent to hammer. I just didn't care about a claim over reads because I was still holding out for a mallow wagon. I'm not going to needlessly request a claim only to potentially move to another wagon and run up another claim. Seems silly.

In any case, I wasn't arguing that lynching blindly was a good thing, I was arguing that you seem unnecessarily upset over something that you had a part in yet are not taking responsibility for, i.e. his lack of claim. Which seems more likely from his lack of claim, that he's scum covering something up, or he's town that has no role to protect?

[singersigner]

@mallow...two parting reads is what you're leaving us with? Do you feel good about that?

[singersigner]

I mean...are you trying to trap him, or something? The sample role PMs are in the OPs, and none of which are blue, so...what exactly is the point in questioning that?

[singersigner]

I mean, it is pretty weird to claim in a color, but I might've thought it was more weird to claim in green cuz ZOMGZ TRYING TO HARD.

I dunno, I'm more irritated that if I'm wrong, he still gave us nothing, which kind of only makes me feel better about where I'm at?

[singersigner]

Sparse activity this weekend due to work, no sleep, and taking care of sicklies.

Also, pretty shit, Cabd. Know how that is.

[singersigner]

I'm gunna go ahead and say that we need everyone to weigh in before a lynch occurs. I will add my thoughts when I look back at the EW wagon.

And...I have seen super quick days due to premature hammers, but the only time it's absolutely imperative not to vote first until absolutely all discussion is exhausted, is in LyLo. If someone town accidentally votes for town in LyLo then scum can both vote to hammer for the win.

Otherwise, I guess it's not really unreasonable that you both have voted for EW already. It's just holidays (so low activity) and I'd like everyone to add their thoughts on D1 (which I will tomorrow).

Who do you think was threatened enough by cabd to kill him N1...

[singersigner]

To answer your question: Yes

And, I haven't really looked back? I wouldn't say pressure to claim is indicative of pressuring a scum read. Claiming at L-1 is standard/our site's meta, so that's not really an alignment indicative thing. I'm talking about who we was actually willing to lynch/pressuring/questioning throughout the day. I thought he was kind of scummy at the end, and actually made that fairly public so that in case he was town, wouldn't just be night killed right away, as is standard for ICs. That's why I think, with the lack of universal town read on the IC, it's someone who might've been threatened that he wouldn't ease up his scum read. Again, I have to read back to see. I could just be wrong. But I'm busy/lazy right now so I figured I through it out there in case anyone felt like looking before I did.

[singersigner]

Wholey wall posts, batman!

So you guys already figured out the misunderstanding with copper's theory, but I figured I'd comment that while statistics and educated theories are great, Drixx is right that they can only get you so far. That's not to say that copper is wrong for using them to scumhunt, though I will say that it's weird you're willing to write off Jason and HI as potential scumbuddies for me and not Drixx, who came into the game with a vote on me.

It's statistically more likely that the IC will die first in Newbie Games. I have no verification on whether or not that's due to the inexperience of newbies being 'afraid' of the IC, though. I think experienced players are more likely to allow the IC to live and create WIFOM over them still being alive, but in that case it's about whoever they feel threatened by anyway, or their confidence in their ability to manipulate the conversation with the IC still alive.

@Drixx...so you're saying you think copper lied on purpose? With that purpose being to frame you? Why bother bringing up how you

would

LAL if you still have a town read on him, unless you believe the former to be true, in which case, why did your town read on him increase so much?

@++--...why were you concerned about how early to vote someone in the day?

[singersigner]

You keep saying it was an "obvious" lie, and then comment that there might be a grey area for policy lynches like that so even though he lied as what you think is town, then LAL doesn't apply here? What's the town motivation for "obviously lying" like that?

@copper...is Drixx's assessment of your lie accurate? Did you do it on purpose to gauge a reaction from him?

[singersigner]

So here's what I thought about:
-cabd is an IC and they usually die in Newbie games
-pending some super ultron mega universally town-read townie dying, you can usually assume the person who dies is one of two things: threatening, or a PR
-no flipped or claimed PR going into night means we can't really speculate anything until the NK
-now that we've seen the cop flip, we can assume one of three things: scum picked up a PR vibe, scum were threatened, or scum assumed he would not be protected at night with the existence of a doctor
-would scum risk assuming there's a doctor for a potentially suboptimal kill?

You're still not really addressing why you're calling him town if you genuinely think he scum slipped by acknowledging the existence (or lack thereof) of a doctor. What did you think about before knowing the NK/flip? What did you speculate on during the night, or after? What's the town motivation for purposefully "slipping" like that?

[singersigner]

I think so, HI, but if Jimmy cracked corn and nobody cares, why does he keep doing it?

[singersigner]

11:10

[singersigner]

VOTE: copper223

Nah.

This is not what I was thinking.

We are not on the same page here.

/mod mode
Also, just a general PSA: please refrain from using certain buzzwords as attacks. There are other/better ways to engage with someone and I'd like to avoid any reports or consequential bans for using personal attacks such as "retard."
/out of mod mode

<3

[singersigner]

@++-- - I've seen scum hardcore white knight a partner before. It's a super gutsy strategy, but it can work if it isn't used too frequently within a group of players. I'm not saying I think EW + HI is the scum team; however, I wouldn't completely dismiss it from evaluation based upon that super hardcore defense.

You keep saying "scum can go this, scum can do that" acknowledging the improbability it is that they would do these things. It sounds like you're trying to negate how we're making educated guesses by shutting down every attempt to narrow down our possibilities.

It's like you're saying "but they could still be scum for that"...of course they can! Anyone who doesn't know who scum is can be blindsighted by them! Like...that's the whole point of the game...

[singersigner]

Eh, fair enough. I didn't read his whole post, just your response, which reminded me of the whole "overlooking the potential doctor" mishap.

[singersigner]

@EW...do you mind just giving the cliff notes version of Drixx's case on copper so I feel like you actually understand why you're voting? "Yeah, what he said" isn't really reassuring...

[singersigner]

I mean, fuck, especially since copper was voting for you and mostly defending his stance on his theories as opposed to "making a case." So saying "Drixx's was better" is basically like saying "as long as it's not me!"

Can you please provide some insight to anything else in the game? It's not promising that as soon as the pressure is off of you, you show up and put someone at L-1 based 100% on sheeping.

[singersigner]

HI, I really appreciate it, but odds are I'll get hammered anyway, and then no matter if I'm town or scum they'll think you're scum too. As evidenced by that exchange higher on this page.

This sounds like EW telling HI not to help him because he is going down, especially the: no matter what I flip makes no sense, why would you say that as town?

This is weird. It actually looks like more of a scum-EW confirming a town-HI by trying to "protect" him from making any negative associations with him and gaining his trust.

@Drixx...what do you think of this statement?

Epic Warrior

, not sure if you know this or not, but you shouldn't claim even at L-1 unless someone claims intent to hammer. And since all four players off your lynch have expressed no desire to hammer you, my advise is that you shouldn't claim at all.

What you SHOULD do, however, is scum hunt more so I don't feel stupid for reading you newb-town.

Thanks.

Scum coaching scum?

This is a standard theory comment and probably shouldn't be mistaken for coaching? It feels like your confbiasing HI here.

@Drixx...what do you make of this?

[singersigner]

I mean, I was pretty wrong about Mallow? Who I was scum reading for than town reading EW. I'm a pretty firm believer of not letting a leading wagon for the majority of a day get detailed towards the last second and get away with it.

I mostly just want Drixx to respond to the points because you made them and he's scumreading you and I'm not.

[singersigner]

So? It'd be nice if you could do what you can. I've been doing most of the game posting on my phone, and I spend half my time drunk. I get the holidays and all, but since that wasn't exactly your excuse...

[singersigner]

Who exactly would EW have killed? Where's the consideration for his partner's choice?

[singersigner]

Not hammering copper.

[singersigner]

AAAHHH. Spent this whole weekend drinking and not paying much attention to mafia. I'll have time to actually catch up on the last few pages tomorrow, sorry.

[singersigner]

vote: JasonWazza

I think copper and Drixx is town v town. Anyone else can die today. Still rereading "everything", but figured I'd vote while I'm doing that so y'all know where I'm at.

[singersigner]

VCA on cabd:

He was consistently pressuring three people yesterday: Jason, Drixx (or Paul, same slot), and finally EW. None were ultimately lynched, and it would probably be assumed that EW would be the next lynch anyway considering he was the next big wagon. That points to EW not being as threatened by cabd, or at least would probably be paired with someone else who

was

threatened by cabd. Regardless of getting a PR vibe from him, he was also the IC which means newer players might be threatened by him. With his inactivity, and focused pressure all of D1, I can't imagine anyone experienced would kill him if he was wrong (pointing to Jason).

Cabd's ISO analysis:

Scratch what I said about Jason as his more serious vote/pressure fell on Paul (Drixx). This in combination with Drixx attacking one of the most universally town-read players in the game today, and Cabd's final declaration of an EW/Drixx partnership is actually making me rethink that pairing.

Drixx's ISO analysis:

So I'm actually becoming more engaged in this game (believe it or not), and now that I'm starting to piece it together as a whole instead of reading things bit by bit when I'm probably drunk, it looks like Drixx has a habit of latching on to the little things (like my miswording at the beginning of the game, or copper's overlooking of a potential setup) and pushing them as epic-ly large things. I tend to get caught up in page long arguments and dismiss them as town v town (since most of the time it is), so I'm withholding judgement on that for now. The middle of your ISO shows more reasoning and logic justifying your change of heart, though, so I'm wondering if you backed off of your pressure on me because it didn't gain traction, or if you found something more "scummy" in HI to latch on to...

unvote

because I forgot how town I actually thought Jason was

The point is...I just don't see how Cabd dies over copper unless copper was scum, copper was wrong, or Cabd was right.

[singersigner]

That replace out is scummy as scummy can be, no?

Are you suggesting a strategic replacing out just so he would potentially not lose the game?

[singersigner]

That being said, I believe EW is the way to go today. His direct counterwagon was town (Drixx wasn't really competing with a wagon), so his information would give us more information than Drixx's if they're not a team.

vote: Epic Warrior

[singersigner]

Alright, I'll

unvote

until you do a proper catchup.

You ARE suggesting two major town wagons on D1, though, so I'd start with figuring out who is town and who is scum on either one.

It DOES remind me of my previous postulation that EW was genuinely scum hunting as opposed to surviving at all costs by voting only his counterwagon (mallow) until pressured to do so. So then what do you think of Cabd dying and who would kill him if not EW/Drixx?

[singersigner]

Sorry if I seem controlling? Can't really do much about that. *shrug*

I'm not really getting where you think Drixx is simultaneously going after an "easy target" and hard core bussing his partner.

And...I made a specific post claiming I wasn't going to hammer before copper unvoted, knowing I was going to be the hammer vote, sooooo...was that an accident, or...?

Preview Edit:
And...pretty sure I also did that yesterday, too. I'm still not getting where you think I have more incentive to kill someone who had not really any suspicion on me, and could've easily attacked for being alive "as the IC" after already expressing suspicion of him D1.

[singersigner]

Oh...kay? Still not following, but maybe someone else can explain it to me in a way I can understand.

Preview Edit:
Um, I was already on mallow...

[singersigner]

Lol

[singersigner]

So why exactly are you trying so hard to lynch me instead of your common scumread with copper?

Is it because I was just pressuring your slot and you got a little scurred?

[singersigner]

...

...................

Looooooooooooooooooooooool.

[singersigner]

It's unreal how I feel about him right now. I unvoted because I forgot why I town-read Jason until I ISOed him again, and his replace out was pretty null. But like...I still have no idea why he's saying I'm scum? I don't see any scum motivation for defending EW so strongly other than being scum buddies, but I don't see town motivation in his reads.

The fact that he thinks he's the towniest person here is pretty laughable right now. There's no fucking way scum would target his slot over yours or a null spot like ++--.

But like...I guess how would I know?

[singersigner]

Lol, I have no interest in you today.

I'm talking about yesterday when EW was at L-1, before HI and Singer built a counterwagon on Mallow.

it's day 1. Being at the right place for vote analysis is key. Scum doesn't want to hammer or be seen near the end of a town mislynch. HI moved it over, so in a way to seem town, Singer switched over.

You didn't respond to this, though, and I'd like you to.

[singersigner]

Er, sorry, the fact that I was always voting mallow, and explicitly stated that I wasn't going to hammer EW*

[singersigner]

The second one?

[singersigner]

I...what are you talking about? HI voted mallow after me so how did I follow him onto the wagon?

[singersigner]

Because I'm fairly maternal and tend to try and get people to arrive at certain conclusions on their own. In this case, trying to not-so-subtly point out the fact that he's lacking a pretty fundamental understanding on the facts of D1's wagons. First and foremost being the fact that HI was the second vote on mallow (after me), yet he's trying to say I followed HI (I assume he was implying opportunistically) onto mallow as a means of avoiding EW.

[singersigner]

Let me see if I get this straight, Boon's case on me is...
1. That I blame the IC dying on scared newbies?
2. That I purposefully stayed off of an easy mislynch only to find an excuse to get on it the next day.
3. That I was "hopping" onto a wagon I was already on, opportunistically (oh but not your main point!)
4. That I was waiting on other people to back a scum read on you even though I've literally not done that or shown any indication of doing that previously?
5. That I fabricated this elaborate plot to double bus my partner?

I hope you're not actually this arrogant because you're pretty bad at this game.

Preview Edit:
Haha...yeah that. I'm just giving him an opportunity to admit he's wrong.

Preview Edit:
Booooo. Lol.

[singersigner]

Why don't you rephrase everything I just said in the words you'd actually like everyone to read and believe, because otherwise I'll be forced to continue assuming you're full of shit.

Are you usually this aggressive? Do you have examples?

[singersigner]

Do you have examples?

[singersigner]

Like, regardless of how much you actually believe it, as town, you should still be cooperative with your team and offer up the ability for everyone to read you correctly. In all seriousness, I am legitimately asking you for examples in order to gauge an appropriate read on you, meta-based and all.

And if you don't believe it's for me, at the very least respect the rest of them enough to work with them through your stubbornness.

[singersigner]

why does it matter if I'm usually aggressive or not? My alignment isn't the one that's being questioned. Hostile has already said this is how I was playing as town.

To be honest, it's being more questioned than mine is, you're just being louder and more stubborn about it, which is drawing negative attention to yourself. You come in declaring how super obvious town you are so you should be prepared to back that declaration when no one feels the same.

[singersigner]

Ahhhhh. My upstairs bathroom flooded through the ceiling to my downstairs bathroom and I've been dealing with that. Sorry for my absence today. It should be fixed tomorrow and at the very least, I'll have to vacate the house for a few hours and can catchup at Starbucks.

I did read through three of Boon's games last night (two town, one scum), and as far as I can tell, he's just trolly in general (more as scum than town). I didn't exactly get a sense of aggressiveness from him in general, even in his scum game, so I'm not sure how he thought he accrued this level of aggressiveness when he thinks he's right. I dunno, I just don't see it alignment indicative except that it seems unsubstantiated that he gets tunnel-visioned in any scenario. Could you point me specifically to where you've done this as town, regardless of if you've been right or not?

[singersigner]

So Boon. About you dying...

[singersigner]

To be fair, it is if you can point out where someone's done so. He can't, so therefore the point is invalid, but it would be unfair to say that it's not something worth pointing out (not that you said that it wasn't worth it).

Since you bring it up, what made you kind of drop active suspicion of me? Copper? What do you think of Boon's declaration of being town after you made it out to be so scummy that I did it in a much softer way?

Anyway, I was pretty distracted with my most recent game being in LyLo to really look at this one. As I spent the majority of my time defending myself from a very stubborn and very wrong townie, while scum was on V/LA for the majority of the game, I'd really like to not have to do that again this game.

Please be smart and put your thoughts out there while you can. The last lylo ended in kind of a rush to prevent a no-lynch at deadline.

[singersigner]

forgot singer had a partner, and forgot ++-- existed.

Um...what? You didn't bother looking at the post just a few above your vote with the flip to see who was left? Unless you already knew. You 'forgot' that you were so 'convinced' that you were going to die, that when you didn't, you weren't going to bother analyzing why? There is now an unwarranted flip flop on someone you claimed to be my scum buddy not even a page ago but seemed to have conveniently forgotten that the last several pages of the game (that you were so eager to be a part of) were highly dedicated to the speculation of partners by both yourself and the person who died.

I don't buy it. The thinly veiled toss at HI being scum without pressing the issue looks like a weak bus in hopes that he can get me lynched first. Though he hasn't actually responded to anyone's request to offer anything to push my lynch. Not sure if that's because he knows he can't or...what...

[singersigner]

I normally read things like Boon's last flip of opinion on EW's wagon as scum justifying their flip flop on someone they've been defending so much to ensure a mislynch, but I can also see how saying "kill" instead of "lynch" in that case could've been seen as a scum slip. As it stands, it obviously wasn't, and my bigger question is why he hasn't thought to analyze anything with the new information we have?

He also refuses to respond to my accusations of him which I can't figure out if he's just trolling or knows he can't (like I said before). When I read through his previous games he comes across as pretty defiant and anti-town by nature, so it's not like this is new information, or alignment indicative. But when he said he only get s aggressive when he finds scum, I pointed out that he's doesn't and he agreed, so that didn't really line up.

The problem I have is that other than the weak theory I recently point out about him/HI being scum buddies, I don't really see a strong connection between him and anyone else in the game. I think HI has been fairly opportunistic in his pushes, but there's not really any scum motivation in defending EW on D1 to push yet another mislynch on mallow, unless his buddy was already on the wagon.

D1, the peek of the wagons 24 hours before a lynch:

Vote Count 1.17

Epic Warrior (4): JasonWazza,

copper223

, ++--,

Cabd

Hostile Intent (0):
Drixx (0):
++-- (1): mallowgeno
copper223 (0):
singersigner (0):
mallowgeno (4): singersigner, Hostile Intent,

Epic Warrior

,

Drixx
JasonWazza (0):
Cabd (0):

Not voting (0):

With 9 alive, it takes 5 to lynch

Deadline: December 24, 7:40 a.m. Pacific Time.

Countdown: (expired on 2014-12-24 07:40:00)[/area]

Both town. Colored are known town. I'd color myself, but for sake of providing unbiased information, there you have it. This leads me to believe that scum were split on the wagons. After replacing in, HI only voted Drixx before settling on mallow. Nothing landed him on EW, which Jason was planted on all day. This makes him and Jason (now Boon) a likely pairing.

Drixx replaced in and immediately votes me, then settles on mallow as well, AFTER ++-- commits to EW, making them a likely pairing.

D2, ++-- votes HI while HI hops on to copper before EW, making them an unlikely pairing, even more supporting the theory that scum are more likely to split wagons with Drixx voting EW and ++-- voting HI.

Boon replaces into the game and immediately votes me, opposite of the major wagon of the day, potentially distancing himself from any buddy, which could pair him with either Drixx or HI (a hard bus of me could also be feasible "for town cred", especially since he hasn't actually pushed a case on me but I'm ruling that out for obvious reasons).

EW ultimately got lynched with only one confirmed town on his wagon, (making a ++--/singer pairing like...I only

wish

I could be a part of a scum team who could pull that off), and ++-- OFF the wagon after starting out on EW and could've easily made an excuse to stay on it, making him unlikely scum.

Based on Cabd dying before copper, and his suspicion switching from Jason, to Drixx, and ultimately EW, I think Boon is the right move for today, and the night kill will help narrow down the partner from there.

[singersigner]

Sorry, I have a hard time reading walls, to be honest. If I'm at work, I'll glaze over them on my breaks and 50% of the time I forget to look back at them. I'm out tonight, but I'll have time tomorrow to dissect them more thoroughly.

[singersigner]

Actually that's how I just lost a 5 person lylo in my last game. It's a lot easier for scum to get only two town to agree to a mislynch than all three remaining town to agree on the correct scum team, so two town plus two scum would be four people agreeing on the same lynch. Scum will tell us anything they want us to hear including agreeing anyone but them are the scummiest. This is the worst kind of lylo because scum don't need to commit to a lynch, simply try to get to a no-lynch or mislynch. They just need to cross their fingers there's not a doc for the win.

[singersigner]

I'm game to lynch Boonskiies. His flip flop on my slot is terri-bad. Like he was ignoring my play yesterday so he'd have me here for the win. And that fake ass town-slip vote today? I don't see that coming from town.

Nine days, guys. Let's kiss the bride.

How can it be a fake TOWN-SLIP, if it doesn't come from town? Like...how do you tell it was fake, and what makes it look like a town-slip?

Something to keep in mind that mass-claiming today is also not really necessary since scum will know how to claim. If they don't have a roleblocker, they know there's no doc, and could just claim doc for the win anyway. If they DO have a roleblocker, then it's possible they counterclaim anyway and fight it out.

So, I guess claim of you're at L-1 as per usual and hope it's legit?

But yeah, that's why there's not really any point.

Also, I read through everything but ironically enough I ended up doing so on my phone anyway since irl plans changed today. I think it'll be easier to parse through without the stream of consciousness, but it's giving me more town reads on Drixx and ++-- because they're not afraid to hold back their thoughts. Especially when ++-- points out that he has reasons to doubt my scum reads because the reasons for my town read on him is essentially PoE (process of elimination). It shows careful reservation and analyzation of my motivations that town should constantly be questioning of anyone.

It's making me uncomfortable that HI is now on board to lynch Boon. It's playing into the whole "if four people agree to lynch someone, someone's bussing." But what incentive does he have to bus right now? Why not try to exploit someone else with the reservations that have already been made public?

[singersigner]

No, not 'my partner', two alternatives. Because when I flip town, and we lose the game, let's just see how correct you were on the alternate. I've lost a lot of interest in this game, also.

Why have you lost interest in this game? You were so confident it was in the bag for you and now that it's pretty obvious things aren't going your way, you're all of a sudden not motivated? Please.

[singersigner]

Oh well I'm not voting yet so there's that.

[singersigner]

If you're so confident where's the vote? Like, this is what I have a problem with. >_>

[singersigner]

This is me posting to confirm that Boon and I would HAVE to be scum partners for me to be scum and not hammer to the win.

Feels good.

[singersigner]

So Boon. What's your plan now that you can't laint me to be scum without admitting your own guilt?

[singersigner]

Describe what exactly is wrong with it.

And you taking off yor vote implies you agree I'm basically town at all costs, you know that right? Because the alternative is a confirmed Boon/singer scum team in which case there's no reason so unvote.

I just want you to understand what you're implicating.

[singersigner]

Actually, it is over. ++ is confirmed scum from my perspective, as Drixx/HI would have hammered ++. One of Drixx/HI is town, plus Singer and I.

GG, though. Whichever is town out of HI/Drixx is going to be too ignorant to unvote.

This is terrible logic since you have to assume they'd be around to coordinate the double-vote at the same time, and only HI had confirmed his presence.

[singersigner]

In short, no. Which is why literally the only way I could be scum is if I was scum WITH Boon, because, while there's nothing stopping me from bussing, if he was town and I was scum, I could've hammered for the win already.

In part, it is 100% confirmed that I cannot be scum with anyone but him. I mean...I guess you could argue that I had some sick sense if humor and thought it would be fun to drag things out...

It's a little weird that you are suggesting that scum could be going against their wincon, after we've made it pretty clear what the ramifications are in lylo. It seems like you're trying to still posit that Boon could be town and I could still be scum?

[singersigner]

Someone's acting absolutely counterintuitively here, because none of the possible scumteams make sense. But, indeed, Boon is right about me not having the chance to hammer him, that is, basically, normally, I'd be confirmed scum if Boon is town. My main problem is, though, that I'm (fmpov obviously) not scum, and I'm not that sure about Boon, either. I mean, right now, I find him more likely to be scum than not, but I'm not that sure.... So:

is there a chance that a scum is acting against what they should normally do, and, instead of hammering, prolongs the game for some sort of a weird reason?

Sadly, I thought something like that may have been going on. I think it's by Drixx or HI, though.

unvote

Geez, is it actually you and ++--?

Everyone had the opportunity to come in and vote for ++-- between the time you voted, and the time you unvoted, but I'm trying to figure out how conservative scum would be with their vote at this point...

[singersigner]

If it is, in fact, Drixx and HI, it means that there was quite a bit of bus between them (or their slots, IDK right now, I'm tired and not 100% sober right now) basically in the beginning, which would have been quite risky. However, Boon's most recent actions don't really seem to be scummy, but, in fact, quite logical based on the facts that he has. Really, scum wouldn't really give up like that unless they were so sure that their partner is able to win alone - when it means it's either singer or Drixx, because both HI and me could, in fact, be scummy because of our interactions with Boon. Also, Boon's predecessor had quite a case against singer, so... that'd mean Boon+Drixx. However, if Boon isn't scum, which I find more and more likely when I think about it, if it isn't the HI-Drixx team, which I find quite likely because of reasons already stated, it's singer with either Drixx or HI. But that would be really, really sick... But then again, Boon is absolutely not acting like how I would expect scum to act. So, the ultimate question is: who is acting totally against my expectations?

Uh...what?

[singersigner]

Ok well I'm pretty sure you can rule out the option of me with HI/Drixx/you unless you really think I'd pass up the unbelievably easy win? I mean...how is that even still a question for you?

[singersigner]

Is there a reason you don't? As town or scum?

[singersigner]

Well since your scum hunting and theories have been proven wrong this game, perhaps you should make an exception.

[singersigner]

Ah, well, if he's town then that's game. Was it Drixx and HI, then? Since ++-- was never on at the point to allow a quick hammer, and neither of us hammered for the win immediately.

That seems most likely given I'm town and the benefit of bussing today would've been towards the beginning of the day and I have a hard time seeing Drixx bussing so hard at the beginning, even with doubt on his buddy.

Fuck, I'm really sorry if I didn't see an HI ++-- pairing. It makes sense now that ++-- was so keen on my VCA being good considering it basically meant I didn't ever see them as scum buddies together. Ugh, rose colored glasses and all...

[singersigner]

OMG POST THE FLIP ALREADY PLEASE I HAVE TO KNOW FOR SURE

[singersigner]

*sigh* I'm tired of losing. I'll have IC thoughts for the rest of the game, but yeah, sorry I wasn't better. ++-- still trying to paint me as scum with anyone but Boon at that point kind of nailed it for me but I'm til cowardly to push anything for fear of being wrong.

[singersigner]

I think it my head it would've been worst to lose to Boon than anyone else because of his stubborn and cocky play. But that's just me personally and wasn't fair for me to let it affect my reads

[singersigner]

Yeah, but I was more worried that you'd flip scum and I was a pretty obvious choice for scum buddy at that point, so I was worried I wouldn't be able to figure out who your partner was by the time I needed to. HI was even like I'M CONVINCED IT'S THEM. Which made me think he was bussing you. >_>

[singersigner]

I also almost brought up that Drixx backed off when he realized he couldn't get traction as scum, not because he realized he was wrong as town. I hate walls. They fuck with me so much. Even when I was like "don't do it" I should've known scum was trying to hide their mistakes in things town wouldn't want to read. Walls are inherently anti -town because if you can't say something in a few sentences (I think I say this in my IC post), then it's probably not convincing enough.

[singersigner]

I'm really kicking myself now.

[singersigner]

I could definitely do with being more succinct though.

This. Like I said, all you need is a couple of sentences. If you don't explain your reads of course people won't listen, but needing to dig through walls and paragraphs' worth of explanations...people won't listen to that, either.

I mean, it worked for you this game, I guess. But I'll admit, I didn't bother reading half of what you said, so maybe I should've figured out that when you insisted on your whole stream of consciousness thing after I said I didn't want to read it, you were just taking advantage of me.

[singersigner]

THE AMISHED TELL IS A THING ARGH

[singersigner]

Oh, wait, that was in a different game. Bah. This is what I get for playing a few games at once. I really shouldn't do that with newbie games since you kind of all look the same to me. >_>

But you were right, it was a good way to make sure people didn't have a target on your back. The problem I had was making sure people didn't have a target on MY back. I was town, and sometimes I panic and don't know how to defend myself as town, so I end up making casual, as you call it--LAMIST (a term I've literally never heard til this game before) comments to appear like I'm not threatened because I shouldn't really be as town. I'm not usually scumread in Newbie games, yet the last three I played in a row I've been called out right up front.

I don't really know what my problem is... I mean, I know you were scum pushing me, but then town would agree with certain things, like Boon, and I'm like...fffff, how do I town tell???

That's why I was waiting for an L-1 vote, to be honest. I knew that was basically my only chance at making sure I would be town read as much as possible.

[singersigner]

Oh man, I really shouldn't pressured you more when you didn't attack Boon for his LAMIST comments, though. Again, kicking myself. I knew it was kind of off, but I bought into your whole "no one else believe it so I guess it isn't really scummy" thing. That was a great way to modify the way you played to the expectations you knew other people would have.

BAH.

[singersigner]

Oh, and I'm not lying when I say I forget what to look for in scum. I haven't been scum in well over a year. I was scum in the Scummies Invitational last year, and before that, probably two years. Ever since I started playing mafia with scummers IRL, I can't seem to roll scum online, so I feel like my version of how to play is so skewed now. I really don't know how to scum hunt. I just try to be as town and as transparent as possible, I guess.

[singersigner]

Oh so cruel. Just read the Mafia QT. Why didn't you just kill me and put me out of my misery?!?

Also, you'll note that I was definitely not making up my "slip" about the QT/PT thing. I was trying to be as honest as possible without slipping into the whole "well as long as they read me correctly, why does it matter what the reason is" fallacy.

Buh...this game feels worse than the last one I just lost for some reason. And that one was to a lurker.

[singersigner]

Yeah, I dunno. I guess my only advice for lylo is never voting until everything is said and done. BOTH of the other two town did that at some point, and took it back, which maybe should've been a clear sign that neither were scum, but I dunno. I was definitely fooled by you, Drixx, but I will I just pushed ++-- more for agreeing with my V/CA.

@Boon...why did you never feel the need to explain a read on me? The whole time I was panicking that you scumreading me without pushing me was going to confirm us as scum buddies and make a really easy mislynch on me...and it did...to HI. >_> I was ready to applaud your play for tying yourself so directly to me if you were scum, lol. But seriously...I didn't really follow your thought process in this game...

[singersigner]

I just realized that copper was the only try-hard town of this game. Every other town basically went bare minimum...how did I not see that pattern?!?