Mini 1651: One Flew Over The Monkey's Nest(Scum Wins!)

[mykonian]

yes, 126 was the thing I skipped after the first sentence.

Obviously I did know that he was a new player. I didn't know that there were 0 previous games.

[mykonian]

either way, to get back on track then, I'd take pbpe's or lists of reads esspecially early in the game as scummy then, having no contrary evidence that a player (taly in this case) just likes to do those.

[Aquanim]

either way, to get back on track then, I'd take pbpe's or lists of reads esspecially early in the game as scummy then, having no contrary evidence that a player (taly in this case) just likes to do those.

Putting aside the fact that it is a listpost, what do you think of the content of the post in question (#259)?

[Aquanim]

EBWOP: Do you also read InsidiousLemons' list post (in #292) as scummy

a priori

?

[mykonian]

School is closed due to weather, I have actually slept for a night the past few days, and I’m in a better mentality for putting my thoughts across.

RadiantCowbells

– I think this is her overall behavior and meta, but her abrasiveness and confidence in her arguments is off-putting to me. Especially with her arguments towards Aquanim and others she’s jumped on, it doesn’t have a lot of substance. I’m impressed she seems to know quite a bit about “cognitive dissonance,” pressure, and other things she said she has applied in this game. She can be a rough townie, or a competent scum. So far, I haven’t seen much I can trust and my gut tells me she can manipulate others. Even though her scumhunting may be town-motivated, I just haven’t seen something I liked yet.

Reading: Slight Lean Scum

Question:

Can you elaborate on your case on Aquanim?

And supposedly the other 3 people you've seem to think were good lynches this early in D1?

I can see where this comes from, either way. I don't think it should make a scumread, but this I can see coming from either side.

Toolenduso

– I do believe Tool has made some good points in assessing how I’ve come across to others, and his idea of putting up a scum case towards me seems a little incoherent. I wouldn’t say he has put up a strong case with me, but from what I’ve seen of Tool in his interactions to others, he seems to be a stronger player in how he words himself. I haven’t seen enough to tell alignment, but my reading on him so far would be:

Neutral

Question:

Tool, what are your opinions on the most prominent posters so far?

filler.

oddmusic

– The only thing I’ve defended with odd over was the possibility that the wagon against him wasn’t credible. He already justified he had a bad day, and only one post of frustration can come from either a town or scum. That said, it really rubbed me the wrong way when he talked about the possibility of Aquanim and I being a scum team, especially when we were the ones trying to keep a detracting wagon from forming.

Where did that come from?

I have done very little to buddy with Aquanim other than stating my opinion that I think his patience and approach to this game is a lot easier and more efficient to deal with than most other peoples’ reactions so far. (I’m not one to talk, but those are my thoughts.) I am unsure of him. I think odd is trying to find credible and justified reasons to appear safe, which I can see from both alignments with a wagon on them.

Reading: Neutral

Question:

Do you think the wagon against you is justified? If not, who do you think is worth a push for scumreading?

suppose taly is scum, this is buddying. Otherwise, can't call this as much filler as toolen, but.

lets see how to put this. I mean, the big part of this post is about defending taly, first his defensiveness over oddmusic, then defending the accusation that came (which is fair, but I don't know if it should belong in a reads post). Only the last sentence is a "read", but then that doesn't go anywhere. The question is because taly feels he should ask people questions, just like with toolen. It isn't helpful.

mykonian

– My reactions to mykonian were a little off, I’ve understood that now. I guess I have a better view on his thinking, the small opinion posts he is dropping indicate that he wants to get reactions from others. (Wanting to drive responses through votes.) Which I think is necessary for getting information, even though I feel his suspicions are misplaced I have found some posts that I think are decent from him. I wish he posted more though.

Reading: Slight Town Lean

Question:

After you have read this entire post

what are your thoughts on me?

Eh, you tell me. I guess I'm biased here.

Elyse

– I have mixed thoughts about Elyse. Her getting us out of RVS and her assessing everyone for info and greater desire to find progress in questioning others seems very town-motivated. I think she’s one of the strongest players in here. But this also makes me worry because she could be a very smart scum, and in looking at her win ratio, she seems to be very good at either alignment. I also don’t see her readings on everyone particularly, and I say this to encourage some insight form her. Anyway my gut tells me she is town, I just hope that is and that her vote on me is realized to be misplaced. (Even though I’ve given her valid reason to vote due to sketchy play, that is all I can say but I hope my vibe gets across.)

Reading: Slight Town Lean

Question:

What do you think about RadiantCowbells?

This is an odd one to make as town. Would you (as town) post about your worry that someone could be very smart scum right now? In lylo, sure. This is the first I could see as openly scummy, but then I have liked elyse's posting.

Metalcyanide

– I was skeptic due to the attention he seemed to have obtained earlier in this day, but at seeing his recent posts, I’m liking them. I appreciated him giving concise reads about everyone so far, and I took his read on me as encouragement from him to explain my reads to you guys. Which is good for keeping the town together and getting useful information instead of just wagons and reactions.

Reading: Moderate Town Lean

Question:

Since you basically just did a read, what do you think about the people who have

not

responded? Also, what do you think about my reads?

The second real read. This is fair.

Aquanim

– I think out of everyone in this game Aquanim has been the most revealing in his actions, reads, and analysis’. He is yet to jump on others with a vote(something I kind of failed to do), and openly admits that he doesn’t know enough of someone to have a read on them and I like that. RCs argument against him seems to be very fluffy and lacking real substance. I do have doubts about what are his readings on the most active people so far, but he seems genuine. This is subject to change, especially since this is early in the game but Reading:

Moderate Town Lean

Question:

Do you have any specific opinions on me, so far?

I mean, this is a continuation of the read on RC, but same as before, this is fair.

InsidiousLemons

– I don’t know much about his reads, I do think he is genuine. He’s expressed at the very least polite opinions in and outside of game speak on the thread. I think being genuine is a good town trait, it gives others deeper insight to your emotions and thought processes. Other than this, I think the thoughts he has put on about peoples posts are so far useful in contributing to a case on someone. Reading:

Moderate Town Lean

Question:

Do you think posts coming from newer players are more likely to be defensive?

Especially in games like these where there is a lot more activity going on.

filler.


I think all of the questions are forced, just there because taly feels he should be asking questions. I don't think any of them could result in an answer that could get things going or expose something. I think only 3 of the reads in this list have any basis, of which 2 are connected. I think one of the reads posts is scummy. This post could have been two lines. "I don't like the way rc makes a case on aquanim, who has been very open and honest about his reads, or when he doesn't have them, which I like too. I have been liking metal cyanide in the recent posts as well. vote: RC". And those two sentences wouldn't have any of the forced commitment to the game feeling that this list post gave.

[mykonian]

EBWOP: Do you also read InsidiousLemons' list post (in #292) as scummy

a priori

?

yes.

Also pisskops pbpa, though you could see that as a catchup post if you feel like it. I wouldn't put it as harshly as the dude did, but that did further confirm that the dude is likely town.

[Aquanim]

EBWOP: Do you also read InsidiousLemons' list post (in #292) as scummy

a priori

?

yes.

Also pisskops pbpa, though you could see that as a catchup post if you feel like it. I wouldn't put it as harshly as the dude did, but that did further confirm that the dude is likely town.

I'm not sure where you get the conclusion from. Pisskop's post was so... well, pointless... that criticising it seems pretty obvious and easy to do, even for a scum-Dude.

Unless you're saying you think pisskop is scum and that therefore TDA is town by reverse association? (Which also seems questionable.)

[Aquanim]

...
I think all of the questions are forced, just there because taly feels he should be asking questions. I don't think any of them could result in an answer that could get things going or expose something.

I think I agree with you that asking so many people questions wasn't very useful (I can't say I know how many of them got answered but I doubt it was more than half). I also agree with you that they're there (or at least, most of them are there) because Taly feels he should be asking questions, rather than anything specific he was trying to accomplish with each.

I don't think it's especially scummy though. I imagine if you go and read a town guide for newbies, one of the things it will say is "Ask people questions and try to get them talking about their reads". I suppose it'd be a while longer ago for you than for me, but I remember doing some pretty naive things in my first (and town) game.

I think only 3 of the reads in this list have any basis, of which 2 are connected. I think one of the reads posts is scummy.

Same kind of deal here. I can see "make a listpost to simulate content" as a scum motivation, or "tell everyone what I'm thinking" as a town motivation - and having decided to make a listpost for whichever reason, at this stage of the game, some of those reads aren't going to be any good. As for the scummy read, a small amount of distrust for Elyse from Taly isn't suprising given the distrust going the other way - and to be honest, if I had to say something about Elyse beyond "town", it would indeed be "town, but quite possibly is good enough to be fooling me".

This post could have been two lines. "I don't like the way rc makes a case on aquanim, who has been very open and honest about his reads, or when he doesn't have them, which I like too. I have been liking metal cyanide in the recent posts as well. vote: RC". And those two sentences wouldn't have any of the forced commitment to the game feeling that this list post gave.

Yeah, pretty much. That leaves the possibility of a townie who doesn't know any better, or a scum who doesn't know any better. I'm leaning toward the first, since I'm inclined to think a first-time scummer (disregarding ongoing games) would be hard put to it to write as much as Taly has.

[Aquanim]

With regard to the thing around 176 with Taly voting and then unvoting Mykonian, I'm not sure that I'd describe it as "Taly unvoting Mykonian under pressure from Elyse" any more than "Taly got what he wanted from voting Mykonian and didn't get around to unvoting for a couple of posts".

[Aquanim]

I'll put this back for now. Time for some sleep.

UNVOTE: mykonian
VOTE: eektor

[mykonian]

With regard to the thing around 176 with Taly voting and then unvoting Mykonian, I'm not sure that I'd describe it as "Taly unvoting Mykonian under pressure from Elyse" any more than "Taly got what he wanted from voting Mykonian and didn't get around to unvoting for a couple of posts".

Given that he's voting me now again, not the last. He didn't feel he could stick his vote there then. Because between the unvote and the recent revote by taly, I did very little.

[mykonian]

I don't think it's especially scummy though. I imagine if you go and read a town guide for newbies, one of the things it will say is "Ask people questions and try to get them talking about their reads". I suppose it'd be a while longer ago for you than for me, but I remember doing some pretty naive things in my first (and town) game.

I fondly remember my first game, I was scum. I replaced into a slot that had made a mess of it (yes, replacing in as a newbie wasn't allowed then either, but then, the listmod didn't really check and the mod of that game didn't really care and just needed a replacement, while I disliked waiting, so there I went. It was just d1 anyway). Anyway, the whole game I was under scruteny. I remember fondly how I made "cases" by simply going through someone's posts then naming everything I could find that was minorly scummy and got free towncred of it when the suspicion had been somewhat heavy recently again. And when people didn't know where I stood, I happily made a big awesome looking post with a read on every player with a short explanation. Life was good!

Till you come to the point that you see other people use such a shield of verbosity as well, and either they were law students, or scum (what's the difference? ). It's straight up the easiest way to win as scum, explaining

everything

you do. It's also quite simply the first thing you come up with as newbie scum. Either you panic and shut down, or you plan to "look town" and make sure you are "open and honest" about everything.

So yes, I'm quite aware, ty

[toolenduso]

I mean, just compare Taly and IL's lists.

I'm not entirely sure what you're getting at here. Is it that Taly has less scumreads than IL, and his only one stated is on RC? I would take into account that Taly left some lurkers off his list.

No, I think he was talking about his previous post. As in, "compare Taly and IL's lists with pisskop's list."

That being said, TDA, can you explain a little more why you think pisskop's list is fake content?

After seeing things develop some more, I feel more sure about lynching Taly now. Here's an overview of his arc today:

-Overexplaining his own actions in a way that looks like scum who have made notes of how to defend their actions as they play (#113).
-Describing his own play in a way that looks like somebody who is not town describing a townie (#178).
-Trying to disguise his reasons for backing away from the mykonian vote (#239).
-Posts a reads list that doesn't offer any reasons why his only scumread is scummy (#259).
-Jumps on RC wagon (#286) when momentum starts to swing that way (to his credit, he already had RC listed as a scumread).
-Lets Odd talk him back into scumreading mykonian again pretty easily (#288), then revotes mykonian (#369).

[Elyse]

@Taly

You lost me.

I'm not saying you haven't been open and honest. But is there ever a situation where you would not be open and honest as town?

No, and there shouldn't be. That deconstructs the towns main goal = identifying and eliminating scum.

That's why I was unsure about mykonian because he didn't give much reasoning(at the time I made a point and pushed about it) about his reads, and his responses seemed iffy to me. Now that I know more, I don't see much of a reason to suspect scum unless he gives me reason otherwise.

UNVOTE: mykonian

Here it is.

Taly doesn't have previous games. That's been said before... a fair number of times.

Are you reading the thread, mykonian?

I think I want a serious answer to this question.

UNVOTE: eektor
VOTE: mykonian

This is a horrible vote.

With regard to the thing around 176 with Taly voting and then unvoting Mykonian, I'm not sure that I'd describe it as "Taly unvoting Mykonian under pressure from Elyse" any more than "Taly got what he wanted from voting Mykonian and didn't get around to unvoting for a couple of posts".

Why are you so bent on defending Taly?
Have

you

been reading the thread? Did you notice that Taly admitted my pressure had an influence on his unvote? And did you notice that what he "got from mykonian" must not have been enough considering he's voting him again after mykonian barely posted in between his unvote and revote? You seem to be making tons of excuses for Taly when his play has been inconsistent with what he's saying.

Also what tool said.

[RadiantCowbells]

I'm actually really unhappy about Boon replacing in on a townread because if he's scum the chances are he'll never end up as a strong scumread. Ugh.

Alright Tool, I agree with all your points in general and that they don't come from "normal" town players, however the reason that I switched my votes for now is that there's the alternate explanation that Taly is just super insecure as a player (read scum or town) in one of their first games.

-Overexplaining his own actions in a way that looks like scum who have made notes of how to defend their actions as they play

Or just newb town who is really defensive about their play.

-Describing his own play in a way that looks like somebody who is not town describing a townie

Or someone with an idealized idea of what a townie is.

-Trying to disguise his reasons for backing away from the mykonian vote

239 is inconsistent as hell, no doubt about that, and way over defensive, but that might also come from newb town who doesn't know what they're doing, like most of the player's posts.

-Jumps on RC wagon (#286) when momentum starts to swing that way (to his credit, he already had RC listed as a scumread).

Yeah, and just the way this seemed motivated by the gamestate moreso than the player's reads is what caused my original jump.

Anyway, I think that if Taly is scum, it will be extremely, extremely obvious, like far moreso than it is now, later down the line. I feel like there's better things to do D1, like OddMusic.

I just want to say sorry for my behaviour on wednesday onward; I pulled 3 consecutive all nighters trying to get a bunch of work done and was in a terrible mood, and that coupled with my imperfect personality and general defensiveness over a previous game where I tunneled town for half the game caused me to be incredibly rude in a way I'm not proud of being.

Aeronaut, I was unjustifiably pissed off at you for "discrediting my reads", as you put it, which is even sadder given that you were dead right when you said that I was exaggerating to get the game going.

The whole thing was pretty shameful and unnecessary on my part and I'm sorry about it.

[oddmusic]

Looking over tool's case on Taly in 412, it's pretty good, and the posts he references back up his case well. The one thing that I question in it is the argument on 369. There was a lot of post happening there before Taly made his vote. It could be over-explaining, like tool described in 411, but the style of the post does strike me as genuine stream of consciousness. Regardless, I'm going to take a look over Taly's ISO.

[Taly]

411 I'm not sure where you're getting out here, everything you listed that could be useful for scum, why is it not helpful for the town to see that thinking? (Letting others know your intentions and ideas) You point out both possibilities of thinking and then go to say it is scum because that's how things went for you?

412

Bullet about 113 = I've made and said my actions and intentions revolving around this...

About 178 - I was just addressing the way mykonian reacted to my push and wondered if he was trying to show the idea that my reason for pushing him was just overreacting and the case had no real substance.

About 239 -

Because exposing myself while full well knowing that people can put up a case that I am scum TOTALLY disguises reasons for wanting to back away from a vote to AVOID being thought of as scum. I sincerely have no idea how you came up with this conclusion.

About 259 -

Did you even read my list?

Even though Aqua and Myko had a point that some of my reads weren't useful, I brought things to light that nobody talked about. (How RC worded herself) - And since you're referring to a scumread that has almost become null with me right now... Let me just make a list here:

1) I gave reasons for RC....
2) I gave reasons in later posts YOU JUST LINKED, saying how I don't think RC is the strongest scumread for me to wanting to lynch right now.

Which makes your argument saying that my "not explained" scumread is scummy invalid. That's a contradiction.

3) So you say that my scumread who "didn't have information" was scummy, when several people so far have made bullets and small lists with literally nothing to back up why they think their reads are that.

At least I said something, do you think I'm scum for actually posting an analysis?

About 281 -

..........If you're giving me any credit for the RC wagon...........

Why are you saying I jumped on that when momentum came that way?.... Do you even know what you're talking about?

About 288 - ........I'm going to have to break this up into 2 things.....

Lets Odd talk him back into scumreading mykonian again pretty easily (#288)

1) In the SAME POST, I said explicitly:

Either way, my vote for RC still stands.

How is Odd convincing me to vote for Mykonian when all I said was:

You just opened my eyes up again about the topic of Mykonian. Yeah, the fact that Mykonian was not explaining himself was why I voted and put up a mini-case on him, I didn't trust it. Now looking back at it, I don't trust it that the only major reason he has given an opinion about anything was about a scumread directed to a post that put up a case about him not explaining his opinions.

I kept my vote, which instantly makes your entire claim and reasoning for linking that post saying that Odd talked me into scumreading him invalid. Plus, I even mentioned before hand I was still unsure of Mykonian.

2) Furthermore, the only thing you can say I've done was ACKNOWLEDGE what Odd told me, because I realized that there are things about Mykonian I was still not liking then. And plus, if Odd WAS supposedly persuading me to make my vote

(Which I just said wasn't even the case),

why isn't it his deal? You could have seen that for him:
Town Motivation: Odd could have been enlightening me
Scum Motivation: Odd could be manipulating me

Why is THAT not the discussion? Instead of more like

"I just found a small smidget of Taly being stupid, let's analyze and find reasons to say he is scum for it."

I think you're pulling reasons out of nowhere with little valid text to back it up.

Now for the second part,

then revotes mykonian (369)

1) Did you not even read my post?

Or what PROMPTED it?

366 and 368 - pisskop and odd wanted to know what my thoughts on who to vote for the best day for lynching was.

I did tell them and elaborated.

2) This was a few several posts after my read on 259 --

My reads changed, and I explained why RC wasn't as scum to me(but she is still on radar) and why Mykonian was a better lynch to me after all.

I even said at the beginning to the response to that:

(Which may change even in this post because typing this helps me sort priorities)

Why is this even an argument to back up a case on me?

It feels like you're nit-picking and leading to assumptions about my play to add onto a case that I am scum. The problem with this is:

You're working on things that have either been justified, overly-talked about, and even dismissed of

.

You

literally

could have read the rest of my posts on some of these to find out the explanation and answers to your case. This makes me think you're also voting against me not entirely on alignment reasons. You see that there is a wagon and you want to vote and hammer on it so you will find one less person in this game that doesn't align with your readings.

I already explained myself more than I should have on most of my posts, I feel like now - People are still adding things onto a case that really doesn't have the weight it once had because

"they want to be apart of a vote"

and

"they don't want to be the ones lynched on D1."

Everyone except for elyse and MAYBE(just maybe) Mykonian

have no reason to pro-long this brain-bowel-evacuation of a dying-wagon-train because they have

actually have legitimate claims.

Not just conclusions that jumped to without sufficient info. because they are actually trying to

HELP

towns progress.

Not adding gasoline to a fire.

I'm genuinely sorry I am being a bit of a jerk here, this isn't usually like me, I have nothing to lose at this point and I really see major flaws in some peoples thinking in here, and all people have done is want to continue a wagon just so they want a lynch.

To sum it up, I don't like 412 And it has nothing to due with why Tool wanted to lynch me, I don't see logic here.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

@Elyse
Sigh, well sorry if part of my reasoning against that is invalid. I have said all I pretty much could say... Whether you still think I'm noobtown or noobscum is up to you.

But know this:

I am not taking any claims people have on me personally, I am riled up by all the things that came from me contradicting myself in a post or two. Even after all my explanation and defense.

This game in particular is becoming unsatisfying, people say they are giving town cred to me, and then others go back and try to make a case against me where there is nothing of true substance to make. This is the mentality of D1 that renders the progress of town. Nobody is trying to bring the town together to make an accurate assumption, it's just I've been in the lime-light of all this negative and I am convenient of a lynch. I know this, and that is why I really don't mind if I am lynched, you guys understand I am town. I do contradict myself, but a lot of my words are true. I doubt this paragraph has much credibility as they same as the rest of my arguments(because only a select few people acknowledge all of what is being said), but that is what I'm standing by and as a game - that is what you guys are to determine what to make of it.

Finally, I'm done trying to argue, if everyone really wants me to be D1 lynch, I can't stop it. I'm just putting out why I think a lot of peoples thoughts claiming I'm scum are invalid. Either way, I don't want to make this a cycle, so I'm putting out all of this.

[toolenduso]

Oy. This will take a bit to respond to.

[oddmusic]

@ Mod: I just noticed this but before you posted your votecount, RadiantCowbells switched her vote off of Taly onto me. This wasn't reflected in the votecount

[MonkeyMan576]

@ Mod: I just noticed this but before you posted your votecount, RadiantCowbells switched her vote off of Taly onto me. This wasn't reflected in the votecount

It wasn't a valid vote. She said "evenmusic".

Vote Count 1.08 - up to post #418.

Taly[5]: Toolenduso, Elyse, mykonian, RadiantCowbells, InsidiousLemons[L-2]
oddmusic[3]: eektor, pisskop, Boonskiies[L-4]
RadiantCowbells[2]: oddmusic, Metalcyanide
Mykonian[1]: Taly
Eektor[1]: Aquanim

Not Voting: None

Mod notes: Boonskiies has replaced Aeronaut.

With 13 alive, it requires 7 votes to lynch.

Day ends on Monday, March 16th at 5:10 PM USA Mountain Time, or when a lynch occurs

[oddmusic]

@ Mod: I just noticed this but before you posted your votecount, RadiantCowbells switched her vote off of Taly onto me. This wasn't reflected in the votecount

It wasn't a valid vote. She said "evenmusic".

Ah…forgot about that.

[TheDudeAbides]

either way, to get back on track then, I'd take pbpe's or lists of reads esspecially early in the game as scummy then, having no contrary evidence that a player (taly in this case) just likes to do those.

I think coming under pressure and giving out a reads list comes from a townie part of the brain.

[TheDudeAbides]

RC is freakin' town as hell.

Why is this?

[Elyse]

either way, to get back on track then, I'd take pbpe's or lists of reads esspecially early in the game as scummy then, having no contrary evidence that a player (taly in this case) just likes to do those.

I think coming under pressure and giving out a reads list comes from a townie part of the brain.

I think it comes from a scummy part of the brain. You should explain your reads without pressure from others.

[toolenduso]

The one thing that I question in it is the argument on 369. There was a lot of post happening there before Taly made his vote. It could be over-explaining, like tool described in 411, but the style of the post does strike me as genuine stream of consciousness.

It does look like genuine stream-of-consciousness. But I would submit that you can easily approach a stream-of-consciousness ISO read with confirmation bias.

Alright Tool, I agree with all your points in general and that they don't come from "normal" town players, however the reason that I switched my votes for now is that there's the alternate explanation that Taly is just super insecure as a player (read scum or town) in one of their first games.

That's fair, and it has crossed my mind as an explanation for some of this stuff. It's just that there are so many things I see in there that hit me wrong. I have to weigh the likelihood of the town explanation against the likelihood of the scum explanation, and with each piece of evidence I consider it gets harder to believe the town explanation in favor of the scum one.