Mini 1651: One Flew Over The Monkey's Nest(Scum Wins!)

[Taly]

@oddmusic
I think admitting it due to pressure negates any towniness about it. But yes that did make me question myself a little bit.

@Taly
I liked RC's early posts but I don't like his push on Aquanim. Leaning town but not strongly.

I'm saying your vote was poor because you retracted it after a little bit of a pressure and a standard explanation from mykonian. Most early votes in the game are poor.

With regard to everything else, you literally said earlier in the game there is no reason to be dishonest as town, yet now you admit to dishonesty. You don't handle pressure well and I think you "coming clean" is a defense mechanism to make you look like a confused townie. However, it contradicts what you said earlier and I'm not going to give you a free pass because you seem like a nice person. I'm sorry. But nice people can be scum too.

I'm not saying not to vote on someone whether they are nice or not. I admitted to being pressured

BECAUSE

I realized that I contradicted myself and so I came clean. That is in part a defense mechanism

but it is the truth

- not me pretending I'm dumb because I realized I slipped up.

You can continue to think what you want, but I've said everything in my defense and I am not lying about this. (Not lying about my intent and my reaction to it that is.)

[eektor]

@eektor
Ok that makes more sense. But then what did you base TDA's apparent confirmation of mykonian as scum on?

The "know" I said was sarcastic.

Going to try to get back into the game and get some reads out.

[MonkeyMan576]

Vote Count 1.06 - up to post #276.

oddmusic[3]: eektor, pisskop, InsidiousLemons[L-4]
Taly[3]: Toolenduso, Elyse, mykonian[L-4]
Eektor[2]: Aeronaut, Aquanim
InsdiousLemons[1]: TheDudeAbides
RadiantCowbells[1]: oddmusic
Aquanium[1]: RadiantCowbells

Not Voting[2]: Metalcyanide, Taly

With 13 alive, it requires 7 votes to lynch.

Day ends on Monday, March 16th at 5:10 PM USA Mountain Time, or when a lynch occurs

[eektor]

RC - I think the push she did on Aquanim was bad. Some of the points did not make sense. After completing a game with her when she was an IC, this push seems normal play for her. I did like how she was the first to point out that Aquanim's defending oddmusic. She is possibly town for now.

Aquanim - Aquanim's defense of oddmusic makes him look like a good scum buddy for oddmusic. When the wagon started building on oddmusic, he tried to start a counterwagon on a lurker slot. Then when that fell apart he changed his vote to me which was the biggest counterwagon at that time.

Taly - I really don't like his posts. He seems to care more about what others think of him than trying to figure this game out. His posts looks scummy to me but I'm trying to figure out whether he is a newb townie or a newb scummy, because I checked his games and he has no completed games on site.

Elyse - I'm leaning town. She's engaging most players, trying to find motivations.

[Aquanim]

RC - I think the push she did on Aquanim was bad. Some of the points did not make sense. After completing a game with her when she was an IC, this push seems normal play for her. I did like how she was the first to point out that Aquanim's defending oddmusic. She is possibly town for now.

Fair enough I suppose, but this doesn't seem like a new opinion to me.

Aquanim - Aquanim's defense of oddmusic makes him look like a good scum buddy for oddmusic. When the wagon started building on oddmusic, he tried to start a counterwagon on a lurker slot. Then when that fell apart he changed his vote to me which was the biggest counterwagon at that time.

Posting about oddmusic isn't the only thing I've done this game.

Taly - I really don't like his posts. He seems to care more about what others think of him than trying to figure this game out. His posts looks scummy to me but I'm trying to figure out whether he is a newb townie or a newb scummy, because I checked his games and he has no completed games on site.

The second sentence is essentially a rephrasing of what Elyse has been saying for a while (and also not very difficult to see). The third sentence is more-or-less my opinion but (like mine at this stage) it's pretty superficial.

Elyse - I'm leaning town. She's engaging most players, trying to find motivations.

This is a rather obvious read.

In short, I'm not impressed by this post. So far as I can see it's largely reads which have already been expressed by other people, and not expanded in any interesting ways. Vote stands for now.

[Aquanim]

With respect to Taly I'll get around to reading him properly sooner or later. I've been putting it off until my weekend because it's going to be work. My feel read so far is that Taly is town, and trying to help; that means one of two things:
1) I'm wrong, and I'm going to have difficulty convincing myself of that
2) I'm right, and I'm going to have even more difficulty convincing other people of that

[oddmusic]

I like Aquanim's 279 for town. In fact I've liked most of Aqua's posts that don't have to do with me, and the posts on me I mostly didn't like because I thought he might be trying to buddy me.

Which pretty much destroys the "maybe Aqua's or Taly's buddying me" theory I had a while back seeing as I'm townreading both of them. I might come back to the idea in the future, but for now, putting it aside.

[Metalcyanide]

Quick post time

Pisskop -

Just get in here when you can and give us some reads.

Taly -

Question:

Since you basically just did a read, what do you think about the people who have

not

responded? Also, what do you think about my reads?

I think we have heard from everyone except RC, who I do want to hear from but I will give just a little more time before I make a fuss about it.
I don't have any major issues with your reads. I disagree with a few, notably Tool and Odd but otherwise they seem okay. My issue with your Tool read is I feel like he hasn't said enough for you to place him on this list as just neutral, but that may be my own issues with his low post count (although his last post is extensive). Odd I feel like should be a cautious scum lean that would change to probably town if RC is were to flip scum.

With that last part said VOTE: RadiantCowbells. RC makes me nervous, I don't really like the push on Odd then the switch over to Aqua. I see this as the best D1 lynch right now and the flip, either way, would provide us with the most information.

[InsidiousLemons]

Question:

Do you think posts coming from newer players are more likely to be defensive?

Especially in games like these where there is a lot more activity going on.

Perhaps, but I don't see how an active game would make a new player more defensive. It mostly seems here like you're trying to get me to say that your defensive posts were justified, which in my eyes they weren't, though your having been stressed does make that forgivable to a slight extent. I've been liking your recent posts a bit more though I still need to catch up a bit, but we'll see. I might post a readlist a bit later.
P-Edit: Huh. Like I said I'm gonna have to catch up a bit.

[mykonian]

MC's vote is a bit strange. Not really seeing that.

[Metalcyanide]

MC's vote is a bit strange. Not really seeing that.

What's brothering you about it? I want to see if I can explain it better.

[Taly]

Quick post time

Pisskop -

Just get in here when you can and give us some reads.

Taly -

Question:

Since you basically just did a read, what do you think about the people who have

not

responded? Also, what do you think about my reads?

I think we have heard from everyone except RC, who I do want to hear from but I will give just a little more time before I make a fuss about it.
I don't have any major issues with your reads. I disagree with a few, notably Tool and Odd but otherwise they seem okay. My issue with your Tool read is I feel like he hasn't said enough for you to place him on this list as just neutral, but that may be my own issues with his low post count (although his last post is extensive). Odd I feel like should be a cautious scum lean that would change to probably town if RC is were to flip scum.

With that last part said VOTE: RadiantCowbells. RC makes me nervous, I don't really like the push on Odd then the switch over to Aqua. I see this as the best D1 lynch right now and the flip, either way, would provide us with the most information.

Well, my only scum reads thus far is RC, I am cautious about Odd. I just think RC takes higher priority for her overall approach. And yeah, you are correct about the info. part.

VOTE: RadiantCowbells

>>>InsidiousLemons

@ 283 I know I'm not one to be forgiven even if I were stressed, I wasn't meaning for me to come across for you validating my position. I just genuinely wondered your thoughts over it.

And also good, I'd like to hear your reads.

[oddmusic]

Additional thoughts on a couple of players.

Mykonian's posting a lot without actually giving reasons for his posts. His most recent post was the key to me wanting to check over his ISO, and his only high content post was a scumread on Taly (181).

I am a little curious why Taly just switched his vote onto RadiantCowbells, considering it was quite a few posts ago that RC was his top scumread (that would be 259).

I think I like Insidious Lemons' posts thus far. Lots of analysis, lots of questioning mostly good stuff. A scumread on me last he talked about me, but I can't say I didn't earn it.

[Taly]

Additional thoughts on a couple of players.

Mykonian's posting a lot without actually giving reasons for his posts. His most recent post was the key to me wanting to check over his ISO, and his only high content post was a scumread on Taly (181).

I am a little curious why Taly just switched his vote onto RadiantCowbells, considering it was quite a few posts ago that RC was his top scumread (that would be 259).

I think I like Insidious Lemons' posts thus far. Lots of analysis, lots of questioning mostly good stuff. A scumread on me last he talked about me, but I can't say I didn't earn it.

You just opened my eyes up again about the topic of Mykonian. Yeah, the fact that Mykonian was not explaining himself was why I voted and put up a mini-case on him, I didn't trust it.

Now looking back at it, I don't trust it that the only major reason he has given an opinion about anything was about a scumread directed to a post that put up a case about him not explaining his opinions.

And about my vote, other than Mykonian, most of my reads from my previous post earlier today have not changed. Seeing that RC is still at the top of my scum list, I thought I'd just vote against her to see if I can get info. (Also because I think her play has been manipulative to some degree.)

Other than RC, the only person I'm afraid that could be scum(this is very vague and light) would be Mykonian. But he isn't my priority at the moment since I already tried to bring him in the spotlight with my analysis though that didn't quite work in my favor.

Either way, my vote for RC still stands.

[Metalcyanide]

Wow there really isn't much from Mykonian.

@Mykonian - We have 3 people at L-4 (Odd, Taly, RC) who is most scum to you and why? What are your other reads?

[Aquanim]

...
Seeing that RC is still at the top of my scum list, I thought I'd just vote against her to see if I can get info. (Also because I think her play has been manipulative to some degree.)
...

What do you mean by "manipulative", and what about RadiantCowbells' posting makes you think that?
Do you think it's scum-indicative on RC, or do you just want to lynch her for it regardless of alignment?

[RadiantCowbells]

Some of the points did not make sense.

This is why I don't bother explaining my reads; people frequently say that my points don't make sense, not because they don't make sense but either because they don't understand them or I suck at putting it into words.

There's a difference, and discrediting my reads in general because of one game where I actually did better than the town in general besides my one read on Elbirn is not justified.

It bears noting that my push in Aqua is muddled because my read on Aqua is muddled, and while #172 remains total garbage (talking to someone as if they're confirmed town while professing a null read, trying to discredit the wagon by casting me as scum)

With that last part said VOTE: RadiantCowbells. RC makes me nervous, I don't really like the push on Odd then the switch over to Aqua. I see this as the best D1 lynch right now and the flip, either way, would provide us with the most information.

This is total garbage. What info, exactly, are you planning to get from a RC flip, town or scum?

Was I busing Odd then jumped to scum to avoid a partner lynch? Did I jump to Aqua because I was distancing? This is both generic and utterly meaningless with regards to my context, who has at most 2 useful relationships that are actually 100% useless for Town!RC.

Seeing that RC is still at the top of my scum list, I thought I'd just vote against her to see if I can get info. (Also because I think her play has been manipulative to some degree.)

So basically all of my past and present scumreads just jumped on my wagon. MetalCyanide's is the scummiest, most opportunistic, and doesn't mesh with what I understood of Cyanide's position, putting him firmly back into my scumpile. Taly's is also complete trash. I'm not getting anything from Aqua right now so I'm going to go with Taly for copying Metalcyanide's shitty reasoning regarding "info" without realizing that there's really no info to be had and that rationale was bunk. Also for calling me scum, then phrasing it as an information lynch, then going back to saying that my play has been manipulative to some degree. (#)
.
VOTE: Taly

I'm still perfectly happy to support an Oddmusic lynch. I'd tentatively be down to lynch Cyanide, but I suspect that I'm drawn to that lynch more because I don't like being voted than having a genuine scumread on Cyanide. Aqua is just bleh right now.

[InsidiousLemons]

Doing this in no particular order because fuck it I don't feel like organizing this well. Also I'm not even gonna attempt a read on the Aeronaut slot. Waiting for the replacement on that one.

TheDudeAbides

: He hasn't been posting much and what he has posted has been mostly needlessly aggressive and somewhat confusing. He's pushing I guess but he's posted very little and so it's impossible to know what he thinks of current events due to the pace of the game. Not inherently scummy but for the most part nothing constructive and fairly anti-town. He's certainly not helping much. Post 140 especially emphasizes this.
Verdict: Somewhat anti-town.
-----

oddmusic

: He'd been waffling a bit before and still hasn't posted a huge amount but I'm definitely liking his posts more now. He seems more focused and sure of himself, and what he has posted is solid. Not much to go on but I'm liking what I see for the most part, especially his last 3 or 4 posts.
Verdict: Tentative town lean. I hope to see more good things to come from him.
-----

Taly

: Oft panicky under pressure, as I've said before, and while this isn't necessarily a super bad thing I don't like how he's twice now sheeped another player. Once pressured to unvote, and now, three posts after his initial post on RC, he suddenly decides to go for the vote when Metal does. I don't like his play very much up to this point, and while he has done some good work I don't like how wishy washy he's being.
Verdict: Slight to moderate scum lean.
-----

Metalcyanide

: Good head on his shoulders, posts fairly regularly and with substance. Overall fairly good play, I like him a fair deal.
Verdict: Moderate town read. There really isn't much to say, he's a decent player.
-----

mykonian

: I agree with odd's points on mykonian, he hasn't posted much and what he has has been mostly useless and unexplanatory. He's being confusing but ballsy and drawing attention to himself deliberately (Post 76, Post 180), which is not typically what scum are wont to do. He's certainly a strange player and he's been fairly unreadable.
Verdict: Slight scum lean.

Question @mykonian

: Did you ever explain your personal reasons for immediately disliking eek's posts?
-----

Aquanim

: Posts often and makes good points, hunting, responding to questions. People, especially RC, are focusing a bit too much on his apparent correlation with oddmusic. I mean yeah sure I get it, they could be buddies, and the wagon jumping points that eektor had made are valid, but it seems more likely to me that Aqua just saw a point he didn't agree with and argued it.
Verdict: Slight town read. Conflicted feelings based on others' reads as well as my own reviewing of his posts.
-----

eektor

: Mixed feelings. Aqua makes a somewhat solid case about superficiality but he's been posting alright since then and I think I like him a little. I don't really know what to make of him overall though, I think I'm going to withhold judgement for a while.
Verdict: Null. No significant lean. Convince me, if anyone would like to try.
-----

toolenduso

: Barely anything to go on here. I'm working with 6 posts, only half of which were in the last two days. I like 260, fairly substantial, he makes good points. I look forward to his hopeful participation.
Verdict: Null, slight town lean.
-----

pisskop

: There's something to be said for brevity, and though kop's posts have almost never been more than one line, as he says, he does take positions and stances on things, pushes people and questions regularly.
Verdict: Moderate town lean. He's done good and certainly isn't doing any harm. In general, I like him.
-----

Elyse

: Elyse is almost boringly town. She's a leader, which scares me a bit as she could just be an extremely competent scum, but when your entire scum case for someone is based on

just how goddamn town

they are, especially on day one, it's a moot point.
Verdict: Town, until if and when evidence suggests otherwise. I'm quite confident in this one.
-----

RadiantCowbells

: She takes after my own heart, taking an unrelated plural noun and adjective and slapping them together to form a name. Perfect. Jokes aside, I don't know if I really like RC or not. Aggressive and headstrong, she's either a pushy towny or a regular scum. Still, she makes good points and drives a hard bargain, and I have to appreciate that.
Verdict: Null. There are scum lean and town lean aspects here so I'm just going to say "Null" rather than "I'm confused as fuck."

Phew. That took longer than expected. I'm pretty sure I've adequately collected my thoughts here, and I've decided I'm happy with a Taly lynch today. Even I was unsure of my exact feelings on everyone until this post forced me to consider every player individually, and I've come to the conclusion that Taly is at the top of my scum list.
VOTE: Taly

[Aquanim]

eektor

: Mixed feelings. Aqua makes a somewhat solid case about superficiality but he's been posting alright since then and I think I like him a little. I don't really know what to make of him overall though, I think I'm going to withhold judgement for a while.
Verdict: Null. No significant lean. Convince me, if anyone would like to try.

Which posts that eektor has made since then do you classify as "alright"? This is a serious question - I don't see any. There's some not-spectacular reply to a post by Elyse and #278 which largely reads like rather basic reads already expressed by other people.

Note: the above vote puts Taly at L-2, by my count.

[toolenduso]

All right, yeah, after looking back at #156 in context, it does look different. RC was being pretty pushy -- more so than his reasoning called for, I think. So that raises OddMusic to null.

Question:

Tool, what are your opinions on the most prominent posters so far?

Well, according to the activity overview the top five posters are Insidious, Aqua, You, RC and Elyse.

Insidious gives me a townvibe with his posting, but I'm wary of his wagon chasing -- he went from Aqua to Metal to OddMusic, and I believe all after they had built some momentum. This can easily be town, but it just raises my hackles a bit. I'd lean him town if I had to pick a spot for him.

Aqua also gives me townvibes with a few exceptions. His response to the OddMusic wagon was wishy washy and the phrasing of a few posts has seemed illogical. He leans more town for me though.

You look worse for voting RadiantCowbells IMO. The reasoning for scumreading RC didn't offer a lot of substance and the vote was placed at a convenient time when momentum seems to be shifting in RC's direction.

RC still looks bad though, for the reasons I mentioned before. Overall he just seems to be pushing players with more conviction than his reasoning warrants.

Elyse's posting and voting arc looks like town to me, but I know better than to think that she wouldn't be capable of making me think that as scum. Her response to the OddMusic wagon made me suspicious.

[InsidiousLemons]

eektor

: Mixed feelings. Aqua makes a somewhat solid case about superficiality but he's been posting alright since then and I think I like him a little. I don't really know what to make of him overall though, I think I'm going to withhold judgement for a while.
Verdict: Null. No significant lean. Convince me, if anyone would like to try.

Which posts that eektor has made since then do you classify as "alright"? This is a serious question - I don't see any. There's some not-spectacular reply to a post by Elyse and #278 which largely reads like rather basic reads already expressed by other people.

Note: the above vote puts Taly at L-2, by my count.

I said alright, not good.
257 is okay-ish, and the regurgitated reads, while underwhelming, are SOMETHING, at least. If nothing else we can use them later to make sure his opinions haven't changed unduly. And yeah, Taly's at L-2.
@Tool I tend to follow a wagon-jumping-esque playstyle. I push people as things come up, which is sometimes read as waffley. I get it, it's suboptimal play, but this game's been pretty fast paced and there's been a hell of a lot of things that have come up. It's part of the reason I'm pretty quick to forgive oddmusic.

[Taly]

School is closed due to weather, I have actually slept for a night the past few days, and I’m in a better mentality for putting my thoughts across.

RadiantCowbells

– I think this is her overall behavior and meta, but her abrasiveness and confidence in her arguments is off-putting to me. Especially with her arguments towards Aquanim and others she’s jumped on, it doesn’t have a lot of substance. I’m impressed she seems to know quite a bit about “cognitive dissonance,” pressure, and other things she said she has applied in this game. She can be a rough townie, or a competent scum. So far, I haven’t seen much I can trust and my gut tells me she can manipulate others. Even though her scumhunting may be town-motivated, I just haven’t seen something I liked yet.

Reading: Slight Lean Scum

Question:

Can you elaborate on your case on Aquanim?

And supposedly the other 3 people you've seem to think were good lynches this early in D1?

This is why I voted for RC, I just took her posts arguing with Aquanim to not be very useful because it just seemed like talk instead of reason. I also voted for RC about her wording, I didn't like that and that is explained a bit in this post. I also didn't like how she has jumped onto 3 to 4 different people as scum suspects in the matter of a few days, we are only in the first half of D1 here, and she still hasn't answered my questions regarding this.

I'm voting against RC for alignment reasons, it has nothing to do with my desire in getting her lynched. I also certainly didn't vote for RC because Metal did, I just realized that she was currently the highest in my scum list and I voted.

At this point, if the majority is willing to lynch me, I wonder what their reactions will be when it shows I'm town.

[pisskop]

I don't really have a solid reason to think Aero's town. However, I don't have any solid reason to believe the reverse, either. There are better D1 lynches.

Hi. Where did this come from? I'm in the middle of a reread and this just popped in out of nowhere.
. Considering Aero's place out shortly thereafter I'm curious.

[pisskop]

My argument against Aeronaut has been somewhat misrepresented as a lurker lynch; on the contrary, in the time period where Aeronaut was actively posting a fair few people made less posts than him. My concern is that with his dozen-odd posts he didn't say anything I considered useful, genuinely inquisitive or interesting.

Who portrayed your arguement against Aero in such a fashion?

[InsidiousLemons]

In the meantime, does anyone have any reason to think Aeronaut's town? If you do, I'd like to discuss it.

In hindsight I probably should've @'d him considering my post was five after this but whatever