NY 183 - Apocalypse Mafia

[Ricastle]

VOTE: Vote: bewilderbeast

Anyone like to bet there's an SK in this game?

[Ricastle]

Oh it puts the vote there for you. Okay then.

[Ricastle]

Nero, what do you make of Grib?

[Ricastle]

meh. What is your big hangup with him?

I don't like 11 or 15. 11 mainly because it goes hand-in-hand with his opener in reference to third parties, and 15 because he ignored Dave's suspicion on him and then gave him a townread.

It's not much, but hey. I'm bored.

[Ricastle]

Sure I'll answer these.

1. Favorite game of mafia you've played here or elsewhere and why?

Well I've only played offsite as it happens. The one game I'll always remember is where I was scum and there was a cult, and the cult leader claimed for absolutely no reason. The subsequent events involving said claim dominated the thread so fervently the town apparently forgot one of my partners was confscum, and we won flawlessly.

2. What is your dream or ideal mafia role? Why?

Jester. It's a fucking cakewalk.

3. Favorite season?

Spring. Summer's too hot, Winter's too cold, and Autumn is just...crap.

4. In an actual Apocalypse what is the first thing you would do?

Depends what kind. In most cases though I'd search for other humans, preferably surplus in numbers/resources.

@Nero: The point is putting 11 in conjunction with his opener. Being open to the possibility of the existence of a third party while simultaneously deflecting how their initial declaration appeared shady doesn't sit with me.

Calling someone's entry strange when it actually has the possibility of being so isn't random in my book. Unless that's how things work on this site, idk.

[Ricastle]

I don't like 11 or 15. 11 mainly because it goes hand-in-hand with his opener in reference to third parties, and 15 because he ignored Dave's suspicion on him and then gave him a townread.

It's not much, but hey. I'm bored.

Not really. Third Parties fall under the category of scum. I am not scum (i.e. mafia or Neutral).

That does make sense.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Rubicon

This doesn't, however. Why are you exchanging your random vote?

[Ricastle]

Ah, okay, I didn't remember who you voted.

I should hope Rubicon's 'claim' is just an early game joke by a player who came in a bit too late to have it be taken in jest. Depends on his response.

[Ricastle]

VOTE: Grib

I don't know what this is all about, but I'll park here for now. Better than a random vote at least.

[Ricastle]

74 seems desperate for some motive or another.

Klingon, mind giving some thoughts on the game instead of just popping in to answer the random questions?

[Ricastle]

Blowing currently irrelevant things out of proportion isn't discussion inducing more than it is misdirection. Conjuring up arguments out of nowhere isn't going to further our town's interests.

BagelS also instantly assumed Rubicon's VT joke claim was legit earlier, so I'm viewing their behaviour based on that as well.

Elusive, would you say Grib's meta read of you is accurate?

[Ricastle]

Ricastle, why are you attacking Bagels while voting me?

I'm just calling things as I see them. I may not have liked 74, but before that I did actually have a townlean on BagelS. I'm hardly going to vote someone like that because of 1 post when my vote's already parked on someone I have suspicion of (you).

Actually, why is your vote on me in general.

At the time I only voted you to get a real vote on the table, so why not do it on someone I was suspicious of early on? Now, 112 and 117 aren't exactly making me want to change my mind. Not to mention you've been replicating that behaviour all game, and have done jack in terms of scumhunting to boot.

Rubicon, what can't you disclose about 102? You're going to have to come out with it if you want my support. For the record, I didn't like it either, but I'm not going to wagon Boon until his case is proven to be more than throwing shit at the wall until it sticks.

Also Grib, why were you so quick to change your mind about Boon based on Rubicon's ambiguous motion?

Dave, thoughts on Rubicon and BagelS? And can you answer Grib's 34 please?

[Ricastle]

117 is a description of my personality, which has no bearing on my alignment. As a result, you're going to see that kind of behavior a lot from me. Better get used to it, bubba.

That's not why I don't like it. I don't like it because of the context it's in; you're yet again avoiding having to legitimately defend yourself from scrutiny while blocking any further conversation.

I prefer to townhunt unless something jumps out at me.

Do you have any reads at all on who you think isn't town? And more importantly, can anyone back this up?

Rubicon is a cloud and I want to trust him. That's why.

Has anything related to him in particular warranted your trust, or are you just stabbing in the dark at the moment?

[Ricastle]

Really? How come?

It just doesn't sound legitimately like town jumping in. More a gut feeling than anything I guess.

Now, your turn.

What for? I think your point about him is pretty good, FWIW.

28 seemed town to me. Really, I'm just more confident in a Grib vote right now.

Nero, why were you tunnelling Boon before he posted? If you want me to vote I'd like some answers.

Pedit: Okay, I was not aware of that. Interesting.

[Ricastle]

Ok, bucko. I'm ignoring you until you come up with something.

[Ricastle]

Rubicon/Elusive: Do you think Grib's town?

[Ricastle]

Hi there. Mind explaining what Nero has actually got?

[Ricastle]

117 is a description of my personality, which has no bearing on my alignment. As a result, you're going to see that kind of behavior a lot from me. Better get used to it, bubba.

That's not why I don't like it. I don't like it because of the context it's in; you're yet again avoiding having to legitimately defend yourself from scrutiny while blocking any further conversation.

Oops? I'll work on that.

I prefer to townhunt unless something jumps out at me.

Do you have any reads at all on who you think isn't town? And more importantly, can anyone back this up?

Not yet. I 100% don't understand the Boons wagon but Nero is pretty insistent, so I'm curious to see how that'll turn out.

Rubicon is a cloud and I want to trust him. That's why.

Has anything related to him in particular warranted your trust, or are you just stabbing in the dark at the moment?

Already answered.

What was your motivation for fluffing your way out of the Garmr convo?

I was more wondering if you had any reasoning

behind

said leap of faith, but okay.

[Ricastle]

I was not intending to quote that.

[Ricastle]

what does nero got? It, I thought I was perfectly clear about that...
as to the rest -popcorn-

"makes sense to me" is perfectly clear? Seriously, what is this logic you're sheeping. Spell it out for me if you have to.

I don't really care about Garmr's pressure on me.

Why? Discussion and transparency are vital to the town. I don't really care about your answers to Garmr's inquisitions. My main concern is that you avoided them in the first place.

Seems like I have the disadvantage of not knowing anybody. Guess I'll just sit here and wait for a bandwagon to hop on

What the fuck? Boon is L-4. Have you actually read the thread?

BagelS votehopping again... 156 appears to be written in a town mindset, but I'm not a fan of its content for the most part. As it happens I'm townreading Dave for exactly the same reasons as you're scumreading him - I highly doubt scum would be ballsy enough to pull a 'bus and make up' stunt before nearly everyone had posted.

[Ricastle]

Do you have any reads?

[Ricastle]

Dave, thoughts on Rubicon and BagelS? And can you answer Grib's 34 please?

[Ricastle]

@jbomber: Three more questions.

1. Why are you townreading Boon? I'd assume it's based off of their wagon, and if so, what feels off to you about it?
2. Got any thoughts on Nero's supposed plan?
3. Would you consider a Grib wagon?

lol, when was logic mentioned. No, I said Nero has either this or it I don't recall what. So he has it/this. There is no reference at all to logic.

Nero has what? What makes sense? Your post implies you're sheeping based on something Nero brought up, which is where you're confusing me. Why did you vote Boon?

discussion is, transparency is not or would you argue for a day 1 mass claim, hmm?

I was primarily referring to individual thought processes. Sorry if that wasn't clear.

Waiting for Rubicon or Elusive to get in here. At least one of them is required to develop the Grib case. (135)

Pedit: Thanks for that info Dave. Early days...*sweatdrop*

[Ricastle]

:l

What's your lean based on?

[Ricastle]

Witty deflection of pressure isn't scummy by itself, imo. Grib's responses sound like he's simply not taking the pressure very seriously because he knows he's town and expects other people to pick up on that.

Yeah, but I'm starting to doubt his self-meta defences a lot more right now. Earlier I dredged up this fairly recent game in which he was town, but was much more defensive and assertive than he is here, and as far as I could tell is doing little or none of the things he claims he does as town.

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=51&t=60211

[Ricastle]

I think the fact that he p much ignored everything and kinda just shrugged at the wagon on him actually points to him being scum though.

What would you have done instead? Boon wasn't wrong; your push on him was a total bluff, and based entirely on your grudge with him (correct me if I'm wrong here). Going under that assumption, he had no reason to take the wagon seriously.

If Boon's standard playstyle is to obnoxiously lurk, how is that necessarily a scumtell?

[Ricastle]

And no, I don't know jack shit about Boon myself. Everything I know about him, I've picked up from this thread.

[Ricastle]

I'm not putting up with this.

VOTE: PeaceBringer

[Ricastle]

I got the distinct feeling that people didn't like it when others acted defensive, so I've attempted to tone down on that.

What about the scumhunting? And the 'self-meta'?

Nero: I think he's scummy for a vareity of reasons, all of which you can find in my ISO. The point I'm pursuing right now is comparing his self meta and behaviour, which is most of what he's using to defend himself, with a past game where he was town, and that I don't believe the playstyles match.

Speaking of that, Rubicon, what's your experience with town!Grib?

[Ricastle]

nice to meet you... just because you do not understand does not make it difficult... but throw your tantrum, get it out of your system...

Perhaps if you weren't being so deliberately obtuse and cryptic we'd be getting somewhere. Why won't you answer my question? I don't care if the answer is obvious to you; if you're town, you have nothing bad to hide.

[Ricastle]

Ricastle: I'm focusing on townhunting right now.

Why?

I actually forgot Kitz existed. Might look back on them later, but I don't believe your logic's wrong here.

Also, what are you not putting up with?

153, 166, and 194 is not an attitude I'm willing to work with.

Although you know what Peace, I'll give you one last chance.

Is your motive for voting Boon part of your gameplan?

Pedit: wtf

[Ricastle]

Sorry, that should be related to, not part of.

[Ricastle]

Because I find it slightly easier than scumhunting.

I'm not going to spend the entire game doing it, and I invite you to lynch me if I do.

Sure. I can settle with that.

Creative, why are you bringing that up now?

I will probably post a full readlist sometime tomorrow, as I feel reads are the main thing I've neglected to mention for the most part thus far. FWIW, I'm currently scumreading Creative and townreading Garmr, to name a few. Nero, Boon, BagelS and jbomber scatter the null spectrum - which I also plan to expound on soon.

Now though, I'm going to bed, so don't expect any answers for roughly 7 hours.

[Ricastle]

Creative: Why, in 137 and 138, did you choose to fluffcoast instead of bring BagelS's point up? I was scumreading you because at that point you were either fluffposting or pretending to play. Now you are playing I'm feeling better about you there. Why are you voting Grib?

Townreading Errant from these past couple pages. Garmr comes off as a bit obnoxious recently but I think it's a brand that's exclusive to town, and I do like his direction.

Establishing a three-person townbloc this early seems dangerous. Maybe not Mafia, but I can see an SK slip into those interactions easy.

Kitz, you were asleep for 36 hours?

[Ricastle]

Okay, I see where you're coming from. I'm not opposed to a Grib wagon at all, in fact I would fervently support it if it picked up. Just wondering what exactly your reasons were.

I don't necessarily think there is an SK within those interactions, just that if there was one, they could very comfortably settle within them.

Thinking about it, Grib would make sense an an SK. Elusive/Rubicon, have you considered this?

[Ricastle]

The ways Elusive, Rubicon and Grib are reading each other is pretty much purely meta-based and isn't breaking the boundaries of town and mafia. Putting someone acting pretty weirdly in this game like Grib as solid town just because you know the difference between their town game and mafia game when there is probably an SK (or at least a third party) in this game is what I'm seeing as very risky right now.

(This all sounded far better in my head...)

[Ricastle]

I think it's very likely considering the game size, personally. 18 players is too many for merely 4 mafia to be adequate and too few for 5. Maybe if they had a Godfather I guess, but I'd sooner suspect there's a third party.

[Ricastle]

@Setup : We should not discuss that until at least a single role has flipped.

It's more about making sense of Grib's actions than setup spec. Do you think Grib would make sense here as an SK?

[Ricastle]

Ugh. I'm really unconfident in nearly every read I've got so far. I've managed to scrounge together a full set of reads, but they're terrible and I probably won't post them unless someone insists on it.

VOTE: Grib

This is my best scumread for the foreseeable future. If Grib flips non-mafia, Rubicon & elusive are probably town. If he flips mafia then the opposite.

Kitz, are you leaning towards a more harmless or more negative role with your neutral read? (I assume by neutral you mean third party rather than null)

Elusive: Thing is, how can you be sure everyone in a townbloc

is

town on Day 1? Obviously, if it was likely that was the case, I'd have no problems. I just can't see it in Grib though. Who's your top scumread?

Chainsawing is defending a player by attacking their attacker.

[Ricastle]

The townbloc is serious for sure. It's almost entirely meta-based, which makes me confident Rubicon/elusive know what they're talking about in regards to town/mafia Grib. (This is also partially why I'm SK-reading him.) If Grib flipped mafia, I would seriously be questioning how both Rubicon and elusive, players that are supposed to know him very well, could fuck up like that. This is another reason I think Grib's SK, as I'm townreading them both strongly right now.

I agree on BagelS.

Pedit: I never stopped scumreading you, you know. Rubicon & elusive effectively putting the mafia case on you to rest did halt me temporarily, but I just couldn't believe you're town with how you've played up till now. SK is the only other option that makes sense.

And didn't you say it was likely there was a third party in this game earlier, as well?

[Ricastle]

I'm not SK-reading you

because

I think there's an SK in this game, I'm SK-reading you because I don't think you're town or mafia, but I am pretty sure you're scum.

But hey. Would you rather I mafia-read you instead?

[Ricastle]

I am not SK hunting. I think Grib is scum, and right now him being SK is the only thing that matches up with my train of thought. The most important thing is I think he's scum.

Strictly pursuing a mafia-read on him would have been far more stupid, in my opinion.

Behaviour isn't what I'm mainly going on, here. Circumstance and meta are. If not for that, I'd still be calling him mafia. As I said, the point is that he's

scum

. Anything beyond that is variable specifics.

[Ricastle]

Rubicon and elusive are townreading/leaning on him, and while I disagree, it's not very logical to do so when they know his town and mafia games better than anyone else in this game. It would make more sense that he slipped through them if he was an SK. That's all this specific read is about.

Errant, that's not the issue here.

[Ricastle]

he could do that as mafia as well.

Either help me lynch Boon or eat rope.

Then this entire conversation is pointless. Grib is scum; that's all that's certain and all that really matters.

Maybe later, bro. Get him to L-3 at least.

[Ricastle]

Look, I understand how eager you are to point and go, "Look, mom, I pegged the Serial Killer on Day 1!!" but, unfortunately, you are completely wrong.

Why am I even scum again? I missed the part where you actually explained that.

15, 117, 123, 150, 154, 196, 317 (no I'm not linking them all, look at the ISO)

Also, your self-meta for this game is completely wrong. The only thing saving you is the townbloc.

No you are not by any means necessarily an SK. There may not even be a third party in this game. That's the tentative theory I'm running with right now BECAUSE I think you're scum and it matches up better, in my opinion, than a mafia read given the circumstance. As I said: It's that or mafia. I don't care massively at the end of the day.

Ricastle, the focus on 3p actually is weird. You haven't explained it in any tangible way and that makes me worry that you are mafia. 3p hunting is very scummy and I need to see you make actual cases as well as have a scum read.

I don't know how I can explain this more than I already have. Please read my recent posts.

Why are you ok with a Boon lynch now when you weren't earlier?

I

may

vote Boon

if

it appears to be inevitable. You're right that it will generate significant information, so if it becomes the choice for the day I won't revolt, but it'll take a lot to get me off Grib.

The last time I questioned the Boon wagon your motives for starting it were still in limbo. Can you really blame me?

[Ricastle]

With everyone following you and nobody suspecting you, it didn't seem like a good idea to throw out a random vote that would cause more trouble for me and ultimately do nothing. But seeing that there's support, I went ahead and did it.

So you were afraid of being counterwagoned?

How does your argument being mirrored make it any better a case?

I don't like how offensive Skold's opening is, or how he's setting up to fade back into the shadows (341 and 354).

[Ricastle]

What I'm saying is, if I had voted Nero, I would have been hit with a barrage of questions and accusations, and nothing would have ultimately happened because my 1 vote wouldn't be making that lynch. But I saw I wasn't the only one, so I voted.

It's not about the vote, it's about the argument that comes with it. If you honestly believe your case is enough to get a wagon on Nero it wouldn't matter when you posted it (you didn't even need to vote him if you didn't want to!) And really, 2 votes is next to no better than 1.

Did you look up the other people on the Boon wagon like you said? And if so, did you make anything of it?

[Ricastle]

That's a scum post right there.

[Ricastle]

I didn't have issue with almost all your other recent posts, actually.

[Ricastle]

I think this would be a good time to mention I've been scumreading jbomber for a while now.

Pedit: Recent as in last page. It wasn't sarcasm.

[Ricastle]

Page 14, specifically.

[Ricastle]

It wasn't remotely relevant before, and has been my most minor scumread thus far. It would have been in that awful readslist I mentioned if anyone had asked for it.

Why do you think I'm reading him as an SK and not mafia? Christ. Mafia and SK ARE different playstyles; this isn't up for debate.

Anyway, Grib's mafia self-meta is a non-point because a) self-meta used as a defence is shite because it shows you're aware of your self-meta and are therefore able to play around it and b) his town meta is equally different as well.

[Ricastle]

Okay, that's one incident. That doesn't change what I said on the whole.

That's not something that can be stated universally, and I don't have real meta here. The major difference is obviously that one has cohorts and one does not, but any acts based on that vary between individuals. SKs would likely be more in-depth with their scumreads, I guess?

[Ricastle]

And I must make this fundamentally clear:

No you are not by any means necessarily an SK. There may not even be a third party in this game. That's the tentative theory I'm running with right now BECAUSE I think you're scum and it matches up better, in my opinion, than a mafia read given the circumstance. As I said: It's that or mafia. I don't care massively at the end of the day.

[Ricastle]

What do you make of elusive and Rubicon putting Grib in their townbloc, then? And what do you make of those two in general?

Looking back, I was wrong to call it an SK 'read' as it's more just what I'm using to connect the dots on Grib!scum. He's primarily just a scumread.

[Ricastle]

The whole point of my SK proposition is it's a scenario where that's a lot more likely.

Though, are you saying it's unreasonable that you could trick people that know how you play?

[Ricastle]

Jbomber739 - I faintly dislike pretty much all their posts. My read on them was too minor to be worth mentioning before, but recent developments have made me more confident. His opening was shady, his answer about my question on Nero in 177 I thought was weird (this is gut however) and he backed out when pressure on him intensified last and this page. He also hasn't shown any sign of investigating anything past his claimed opinion on Nero before the latter opened up, which he said he would in 230.

Skold - Mostly what I mentioned earlier. He opened unusually aggressively, jbomber opportunistically sheeped him using faulty reasoning to justify it, and he's given indications that he may just go back to lurking. I don't believe they explained why they lurked for so long either.

[Ricastle]

Creative: Can people please stop asking me shit I've already answered multiple times? I only appear to be obsessing over this SK crap because everyone keeps asking me about it.

The differentiation question really wasn't important or related to the point I was trying to convey so I don't honestly care what you make of it.

Skold, where are you bussing jbomber?

You also offhandedly commented you should stop reading the thread, as if you wanted to. Point is it's an uncalled-for emergency exit and I didn't like it.

[Ricastle]

15, 117, 123, 150, 154, 196, 317 and 369 are general posts of his I find scummy. He's hiding behind his scum meta despite the fact that his town meta is also different from his play here, he's hiding in his townbloc, and fluffs away anything he doesn't want to confront. He's just hiding in general, all while pretending to contribute with mostly irrelevant or parroted trite.

[Ricastle]

Might get some more quotes up later if I can be bothered. Here's one anyway that encapsulates my point above.

that would cause more trouble for me

ngl I made that same exact face, but with more eye rolling.

Note he's said nothing about jbomber apart from this.

Ah, forgot to link the posts. Sorry. 15 117 123 150 154 196 317 369

[Ricastle]

Oh, he actually did. Fuck that then.

[Ricastle]

Yeah, thinking back to it, it's pretty weird why Garmr said that. He didn't even seem to be trying at all at that point.

It's not really like you're coming off the Boon wagon anyway, is it?

Quotes coming.

[Ricastle]

The meta point.

The whole point of my SK proposition is it's a scenario where that's a lot more likely.

Though, are you saying it's unreasonable that you could trick people that know how you play?

As highly as I think of myself, I would still say yes. I am much better at tricking people completely unfamiliar to me, which is why I ended up getting lynched as scum Day 1 in one of the games I linked (Rubicon and another mutual friend were both town in that game).

I primarily stick to micros.

Some scum games of mine:

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=50&t=42975 - newbie game, first time rolling scum, perfect victory
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=52&t=58483 - lurked a lot, was lynched D1
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=84&t=59515 - made it to endgame but lost to other scum, though I still consider it a good scumplay for me

With that out of the way, I'd like more pressure on Kitz since Boonskiies has decided to be useless in the meantime.

I got the distinct feeling that people didn't like it when others acted defensive, so I've attempted to tone down on that.

Also, neat! An actual post by Nero...which amounts to grudgevoting. I guess the ends (Boonskiies' reaction) justify the means? Maybe?

Using his previous scum games as a defence while before he admitted he's changed his towngame in response to said towngame also being pointed out as irrepresentative.

[Ricastle]

Creative

No you are not by any means necessarily an SK. There may not even be a third party in this game. That's the tentative theory I'm running with right now BECAUSE I think you're scum and it matches up better, in my opinion, than a mafia read given the circumstance. As I said: It's that or mafia. I don't care massively at the end of the day.

[Ricastle]

Ricastle, I really am going to say that listing all of someone's posts as "scum" is going to real old real fast. Either you explain what makes each post in particular scum or you run the risk of seeming like you're just making stuff up, which now that I looked at them in ISO seems to be the thing. Also once you have a suspect in mind, asking them questions to clarify their points is usually helpful.

Righto.

15 is highly deflective. Dave calls his opening strange, which no was not an RVS joke as he gave reasoning later, yet Grib responds by fluffing and giving him a random townread; not a serious townread, but the intention to distract is clearly there, used in a diplomatic way.

117 is more pointless deflection. Sure Garmr's point wasn't entirely great, but how is it town to, instead of correct him where he's wrong, try and fluff his post away?

123 - Surely he must have known what I was talking about in 122, yet he attempts to worm out of the conversation again instead of engaging with me as to why I didn't like 117.

150 may seem like a concession but it's more a "What can you say to that?" post. This is true later on as he doesen't act like he's conceded anything. He never ended up addressing my point in 128 later either and seemed to have completely forgotten about it.

154 is complete garbage. First he says he doesn't care about Garmr's pressure on him, which is bizarre - why would he not care about keeping up relations with Garmr before there'd been so much as 8 pages? Second he actually ends up answering Garmr's post, more to my insistence than anything - and he does it completely unbelievably. Instead of doing the understandable and debunking Garmr's points about him, he actually concedes them, saying that's what he does as town, when that's also complete bullshit! Also, if these were really his answers, and he really is 'trying hard to look town', why on earth didn't he care about clearing his name to Garmr? And how does his response to Garmr make any sense in the context that all of Garmr's points were in essence true?

196 - Here he essentially attempts to reason as to why past town meta of him isn't accurate, yet later on uses his scum meta as proof he isn't scum, and before used his town meta as a defence. See the problem here? Defensiveness was not the only point I mentioned in 189 either, however it's the only one he chooses to tackle, which honestly did work to make me question my suspicions of him at the time. Also his reaction to Nero's reasoning on the Boon wagon sounds like what I'd expect from scum - careful moderation designed not to lean one way or the other.

317 - Asking for me to read him correctly while giving no reason to do so. He's yet again fluffposting away instead of reasoning with me.

369 stood out to me the moment I read it. He wagons his townbloc (super safe), and gives no indication he even thinks Skold's scummy (and still hasn't!), just that he likes the people on the wagon. Plus, why the hell is he talking about returning to Kitz when he said earlier that was what was essentially a placeholder vote?

I'll admit, 418 is partially right - I think I probably am too convinced Grib is scum this early in the game. But what can you do?

Yeah, I'd be fine to stop talking about Grib now if you want. I've made my case against him. People can choose to agree with me or to not; I need not do anything else. What else would you want to discuss?

[Ricastle]

Do you have anything on the Boon wagon, jbomber, or Skold?

Can you give me an example of a game where Grib played like this as town?

[Ricastle]

Right, okay then.

Do you have any scumreads?

[Ricastle]

in my observation a high percentage of these so called cases are flawed and wrong...

If that percentage is any less than 100 I'll consider it a success.

And I being the genius that I am will have to provide no reasoning to support any argument I bring forth. No. WHY are these cases flawed and wrong?

What's your opinion on 424? And what's 409 all about?

[Ricastle]

Skold, answer my questions please.

[Ricastle]

What's your opinion on 424? And what's 409 all about?

[Ricastle]

PFFFFhahaha what the fuck.

First of all I don't like people handing me their quotes for me to analyse. It seems to me to be a case of ''Look at me, give me a town read, here's the post of mine I considered the towniest''. While I don't think it applies in this case I thought I'd mention it.

You actually think that's why I asked you? Why the hell where you attacking Peace when you hadn't even read what he was commenting on? How were you to know it wasn't plainly obvious why he felt that way (which it appears you think to be the case)?

For the first two quotes you seem to operating under a differing definition of deflection. Tell me what you meant by it and I can comment on it.

Playing off suspicion/inquiry using fluff or other such distractions.

Third quote you supplied he actually DID comment on stuff you mentioned in 122. Just briefly. And he did explain in 117. Actually one could argue that you came out scummier in the conversation of those two quotes because you didn't mention WHY 112 and 117 were bad. And now you want him to ask? Nah m8.

I never said he didn't respond to anything in 122. I was clearly referring to my dislike of 117.

117 consisted of exactly 1 line of fluff. Name the ways that could be interpreted as scum. Come on.

What the fuck even is your last sentence? I'm not asking him shit.

Fourth quote of his that you supplied it may have looked like a concession BECAUSE IT IS. And then you use a vague ''later'' which I can't gain much from. I'll

CONCEDE

if you point me towards wherever ''later'' is.

None of his later posts make out I ever had so much as one point against him when he

apparently

conceded there.

Fifth quote - Nobody should really care what other people think of them. Give your reads, be honest. People get upset? That's unfortunate. Now continue giving reads and being honest. You then move on to bitch about him conceding points and declaring his claim of it being his normal town play to be bullshit. Have you read prior games of his? If so then I suppose if you give me his prior games and it turns out that he's bullshit then I'll

CONCEDE

this point. If you haven't read his prior games then you have no business talking about what his normal town play is. Pending followup.

But he still had the audacity to respond to it.

I read up on a ton of his recent town games a few hours ago. You can tell it's the same person, but none of his actions mimic what he's claimed or shown in this game. I'll post links in a minute.

Sixth quote - I'm going to assume that's the wrong post. If it isn't, you are scum for flat out fucking lying then trying to get away with it by assuming nobody would click on those post links.

How the fuck am I lying? Seriously, how. "I got the distinct feeling that people didn't like it when others acted defensive, so I've attempted to tone down on that." That is his defence. That is him discrediting his town meta. That is the only point he WILLFULLY took on, and the only one in that post. I can't remember if he ever did answer the others but if he did it was

after I pushed him about it

. 202

Seventh quote: Clearly a fucking joke. Scum. See that winky face? Yeah it's denoting TAKING THE PISS.

You think I wasn't aware of that? Fucking hell. Does that change anything I said?

Eighth quote: Actually yes. And not just because it involves me, but because he had not previously shown any signs of scum reading me. And he is sheeping his town reads. Townies do sheep as well you know. It's not even really a scumtell just a bad play tell.

And you assume I'm not putting them hand-in-hand why? I made it quite clear that I am.

Ninth quote: You then

CONCEDE

.

...



I said 418 was right in the fact that I was obsessing over my Grib case more than I should be at this early stage of the game, but I can't really help that as I believe in my conviction strongly.

To be honest, I don't know why I even fucking bothered to write that. It's pretty much a rewrite of what I already said to appease your bullshit strawman.

Seriously, why are you deliberately simplifying and twisting me here? Why are you brutally attacking nearly everyone you come in contact with for no fucking reason? Christ.

[Ricastle]

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=60727
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=83&t=60820
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=83&t=60789
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=51&t=60211
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=84&t=60264
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=51&t=60427
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=84&t=59843

If that isn't enough for you.

409 is the response to a claim that I was trying really hard to defend my lurking. Then I commented the second half of his sentence. Then I mentioned that I couldn't give a toss about defending myself, and that I want my opinions understood before you take away from a strawman instead of the real opinion. Anything else?

Oh, so we're just ignoring the part where you said you think you know why BagelS thinks you're scummy but just can't seem to put it into words for some reason?

[Ricastle]

I'm reading you in those games from when you were in them, obviously.

[Ricastle]

This is a special level of stupid I can't begin to comprehend. ''WHILE I DON'T THINK IT APPLIES IN THIS CASE..''< Me .

But you didn't say anything about what you think DID apply. What was the point of bringing up some random irrelevant jab if not to start shit?

I attacked peace because he didn't explain WHY he disliked the post.

How were you to know it wasn't plainly obvious why he felt that way (which it appears you think to be the case)?

''I never said he didn't respond to anything to 122...'' I phrased that wrong. I only meant to say that you asked him to to ask why you disliked 117. And while technically you didn't you said in 424 ''instead of engaging with me as to why I didn't like 177''.
This to me implies you wanted him to ask why you didn't like it. And no what he posted there wasn't fluff. It was a bit of self-meta + a decent response.

He was deliberately avoiding the obvious annoyance I had with 117. Any response not taking how it could be scumread on board would have been fluff in that situation.

I'm implying that if he was town, he'd have been more open to me on the matter. Not that he should have, but he would have.

''None of his later posts make out I ever had so much as one point against him when he apparently conceded there''.
Should they? Unless he has said in any post that he hasn't made a mistake in this game what so ever then this point is completely meaningless.

418, for one. His general attitude gives this impression.

''but he still had the audacity to respond to it''
''had the audacity''
''audacity'' > rude or disrespectful behavior. No. It was not audacious to respond to Garmr. Don't be dumb. And if you're going to base an argument on meta I need the links to previous games else I can't call you up on bullshit. Though I dislike meta anyway if you are going to continue defending this argument based on it I guess I'll try working through meta.

Are you going to make an actual point or just insult me?

''How the fuck am I lying''. Misread that section. I read it as ''he gives town meta which contradicts previous town meta''. Sorry. I'm going to re-respond to it. That post you supplied doesn't admit that his previous town meta was wrong nor does it imply that because of his scum-meta he can't be scum. So you're still a liar. Or dumb. Dumb works as well.

413.

If he's admitting he's changed his town game that's putting serious doubt on any town meta he tries to use as defence. Very simple.

''Does that change anything I've said'' - If by change you mean make completely invalid, then yes. It does. Because scum reading someone based around them taking the piss is silly.

The core message is there wether he's taking the piss or not. He's not making effort to properly interact with me when I'm confronting him about him being scum.

Eighth quote: You mean you DO put bad play and scum play hand in hand. Then you aren't a liar. Just dumb.

Generalization fallacy. In this scenario, the bad play is bad because it's scummy.

Ninth quote: Here it was ME that was taking the piss. With the ''CONCEDE''. I know fine well what you meant in the post you linked.

That's not taking the piss, that's flat-out disingenuous shit-stirring and makes me very angry.

And why am I ''brutally'' attacking everyone? Because if I find you scummy or stupid, I'm not holding back on my criticism. Sorry man but 424 just doesn't make sense.

Have you forgotten your opening and your attack on Peace already?

pedit: @Ricastle do you want to talk about why I couldn't put it into words? Okay just stop making me post walls.

That's a laugh. I didn't start this. And yes, I'd love you to answer that if you can.

[Ricastle]

As a side note, with that definition of deflection neither 15 nor 117 is deflection. This also applies with a more dictionary applied definition.

True, 15 doesen't make sense without the context of Dave's 10, even though I've mentioned it in relation to that plenty of times. But there you have it anyway.

As for 117, what. My definition I stated was practically tailor-made for what I read from that post.

[Ricastle]

I don't think they are same team if one is scum.

If you think this, and are voting elusive, why are you still scumreading Grib?

If you think they both have the possibility of being scum, what makes elusive more likely to be scum than Grib?

[Ricastle]

Ooh. Based on that wording, another option is you're contemplating my SK theory?

[Ricastle]

Well first of all you did start this. You made a wall post and asked me to respond to it. This forces my wall post and creates a very annoying back and forth.

Yes, because you referenced said wall post but didn't give any sort of opinion on it. I'm sure you would have read it eventually anyway. If anything my post prodding you about it only sped up the process.

I mentioned why I didn't like people handing me quotes of their own to analyse so that people would know not to hand me quotes of my own to analyse. Plain and fucking simple.

Which was irrelevant to the matter at hand. Mentioning that wasn't by any means necessary and anyone railing on you about the hypocrisy if you were to bring this up later instead would be bullshitting.

And it WAS fucking obvious that I attacked peace based on the fact that he didn't explain why. I even said WHY in all caps to him. So don't bs man.

What? You made out earlier my post was obviously terrible/scum. If you had that in mind when reading Peace's post would you really have attacked him for essentially speaking your mind, bar explanation?

Nothing in 418 gives off the impression that he think he ''hasn't made a mistake in this game what so ever'' < me

When the fuck did you say that?

418 comes off as denying that I have so much as any reasoning at all to scumread him. I don't believe that's an exact quote from me either - I believe my original statement was about concessions, which makes more sense. Seriously stop misrepping me.

''I'm implying that if he was town, he'd have been more open to me on the matter. Not that he should have, but he would have.''
What do you mean by open? Open isn't a word that applies here. And he didn't avoid 117. He posted about it in the next post.

Yes it is. I'm calling discussing with me about why I didn't like 117 open.

I'm assuming you're talking about 123 here. In which case, his next post was 150, so...no?

I did make a point. I also insulted you. I regret insulting you to some degree, maybe I should of used silly instead of dumb, dumb is kinda harsh for a forum board game. Point being that it wasn't audacious to respond to Garmr. Point being that I dislike meta. YOU'RE the one creating a strawman here. You're picking through my points ignoring the content, isolating the insults and crying ''Ad hominem , ad hominem!''
<Latin/Greek term idk which for insulting someone instead of tackling their argument. Doesn't really apply when you do both.

Okay I did use audacity wrong but my point was that Grib still replied to Garmr's post

while

ignoring the pressure which conflicts with how you're justifying him.

I'm not the instigator of the meta argument; I only started bringing it up after Grib did to defend himself, so that isn't a point against me.

''that's putting serious doubt on any town meta''
I'VE changed my town game. Anyone who does bad in a recent town game, should change their town game. This is why meta either, shouldn't or doesn't work for confirming anything. It can be at best supplementary.

So you agree with me?

And the full sentence was "That's putting serious doubt on any town meta he uses as a defence". Nice try though.

Should he be making an effort to interact SPECIFICALLY with you? No. There are other players, sorry.

We were in the middle of a debate directly correlating to me believing him to be scum, so at that exact point in time, yes.

And it's totally like he ignored me to focus on someone else instead of sitting back down. Right.

On the why I couldn't put it into words: Because it was dumb. And if it's dumb it's difficult to put it into your own words. I'll try here: According to SPastry I was scum because I was being active while having an open excuse to leave if an argument got too tough for me. I guess it makes more sense when I say it but most things do .

Wasn't that my argument against you?

On 15 and 117: He had already addressed 10 and 117 still doesn't make sense given that definition. If the tailor fails to make a dress that fits, don't blame the bride, blame the tailor.

His "Dave, are you SK again" isn't addressing anything. 15 is the scummier follow-up which is why I'm focusing on it.

What are you talking about? Explain to me, clearly, how you think 117 doesn't fit my definition of deflection.

''Have you forgotten your opening and your attack on Peace already?'' By my opening I'm assuming how I entered the game. And no I haven't. My level of aggressiveness will depend on how stupid/scummy a piece of writing is.

Okay. This can end here.

[Ricastle]

Elusive defensive nature over gribs implies buddying. She is also working hard to maintain the happiness of her town block which she threw out early. This makes me think she is more likely to be scum than gribs. Also the other point about where she is pushing and where she is voting.

pedit: If I were to see a 2nd night kill tonight Ricastle then I would consider it.

That's fine and dandy but would you mind consolidating on Grib for now? We need a more definitive wagon going to further the gamestate, and I think we'll learn more based on what Grib flips than elusive imo. (If elusive flips town, what would the next move be?) Plus you're scumreading Grib anyway.

Theoretically, if we had already seen 2 nightkills, how likely would you consider Grib!SK right now?

[Ricastle]

Ricastle

is definitely town!

Glad to hear it. Any thoughts on Skold?

[Ricastle]

What are your reads again?

[Ricastle]

The fact she ask for rubicon permission to vote me is weird

pretty sure that didn't happen, at least

I just ISO'd elusive and yes that is a legit lie.

Why did you do that Garmr?

2: Are we completely forgetting about jbomber? Skold was the only one to vote for him but I feel like his shady sounding responses in 363 and 366 can't be ignored.

I'm already scumreading him off that. What were you thinking of doing about him?

[Ricastle]

Well a wagon at some point obviously. But the votes are spread thin enough as is. I'm not looking to contribute to that problem.

I was referring to right now but okay. It

would

be good to get a wagon going that the majority can agree with though. Jbomber could well be that wagon.

Also I find Kitz's excuse for not posting weird when relatively little meta has been the focus of conversation lately. In fact apart from my argument with Skold (where only a couple of points revolved around it anyway) I don't see where it's even being mentioned.

[Ricastle]

Ah, that. I was well aware of that post but hadn't registered elusive was addressing Rubicon specifically.

I see where you're coming from but I still don't know if I agree. I'll probably look more into this whole thing later.

[Ricastle]

That's the normal me for the early game. I'm also bad at voicing opinions, and I had my share bite on Grib's hypocritical moment and logic.
From what I read, there's meta everywhere. Grib's behavior? Meta. Boon's behavior? Meta. Less activity, more activity, more passive, more aggro, geeee meta.

Even Elusive attempted meta on me.

Some of the stuff surrounding Elusive & Grib (and the townbloc in general) is meta sure, but that's about the only relevant meta in the game. The meta that was brought up about Boon doesn't actually have anything to do with his wagon.

How about some thoughts on jbomber and Dave?

Looking at elusive vs Garmr now. My next post will probably be about it.

[Ricastle]

I've been having trouble making heads or tails of this debate but as far as I can tell it's tvt. I highly doubt elusive would be banking so much on her trust and the trust of her townbloc if she was scum; considering they know her as well as she knows them, it would be a risky endeavour indeed. It's understandable that she'd read Grib without asking almost any questions, as most of her ability to read him will come naturally as she's said because she's played so much with him. That's not to say I agree but it's clear to me the way she reads Grib and I don't see what's buddying about that at all.

1. I stated in this post here

Spoiler:

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 1#p6748411

that, "Rubicon, I might vote Garmr for wanting to crush the dreams of a nascent town bloc and

if he doesn't have any other reads. That's probably when I would start getting really suspicious

.

then the bolded part which I bolded so that hopefully no further explanation is necessary is why I haven't voted you as of yet since its still early in Day One and the reads people start out with aren't necessarily the ones they end upon.

Also now that you've voted me, you've proved my point by having another read.

This is a conclusive answer to this point.

I have won mafia games because I am good at manipulating my meta and presenting cases that were meta based even through the person was town. It's a two way sword.

2Also Tbh i really don't care if your going to use meta in all your reasons. Because the way your doing it is worthless. You explain why his town meta matches up with this meta otherwise I could say from meta your scum and offer no explanation as to why.

On the other hand, I like these points and would be interested in elusive's answer to the latter.

Garmr, what did you mean about Elusive demonstrating she knew what you were talking about from the start?

Elusive, why DID you specifically say to Rubicon the conditions you'd vote Garmr on in 284? What about Grib?

Sorry this took so long to get out. I got distracted and my phone is fucking up.

[Ricastle]

this post shows she understood what I was getting at before but instead of trying to correct me she used the opportunity to try and frame me as a liar and making shit up. But all she could do was to say Your wrong she couldn't show where I was apparently making stuff up.

That's true. The only thing she actually pointed out you were lying about/making up was about who started the townbloc, which is far less than I'd expect from someone who made a prelude post amplifying the matter.

Also if you noticed she didn't vote me earlier when She was pushing me and I was provoking her.

284 was her only post which could be interpreted as pushing you before you brought the case up. It's already explained why she didn't vote you there in the parts of her post I quoted. So, yeah, you really

don't

have a leg to stand on here.

Also If she was genuinely scum reading me in her last post she would of referred to me as trying to paint her as scum. But all she did was point at my points and say I was mistaken.

This is really something only elusive can answer. Still, as I said, I'm not remotely convinced she would dare go as far out as she has done for the townbloc if she was scum, especially as she wasn't even its founder.

[Ricastle]

With all these townreads I'm getting I'm seriously worried for my safety tonight.

Creative, Rubicon, Nero, Grib, are any of you up for a jbomber wagon?

[Ricastle]

Got it, elusive. On that note, are you even scumreading Garmr?

I would vote for jbomber right now but I'll wait for some more responses first.

[Ricastle]

Ah fuck it. Doesn't really matter when I do this

VOTE: jbomber732

[Ricastle]

Well it certainly doesn't inspire me to change my vote, that's for sure.

[Ricastle]

Seriously questioning my townread on Garmr now. Peace is town for 581.

@Elusive/Dave: The reason the jbomber wagon grew so fast is because I believe pretty much nobody is townreading him, and the case is good. Him replacing out just when the wagon grew to L-4 added fuel to the fire, if anything.

[Ricastle]

Hold the phone.

2) Prods will only be handed out starting 2 days from day start. If I feel you haven't responded to prods given earlier in a satisfactory way, I reserve the right to force replace you.

Mod, what would you consider an unsatisfactory way to respond to a prod?

[Ricastle]

Far as I see it, if Garmr

were

scum, I think he'd be more concerned with claiming anything before replacing out due to the circumstances at the time (being pressured by like 3 people). He saw what happened to jbomber on just the previous page, so I'd expect he try to keep himself from sharing the same fate.

On one hand yes, claiming VT boxes in his successor, but on the other, there's nothing else safe to claim for scum at this point. I think the whole thing's null overall.

[Ricastle]

Honestly, there really is nothing else to do today until jbomber and Garmr's replacements show up, which is what I'm waiting for.

[Ricastle]

Dave, does it matter what order we answer you in?

[Ricastle]

It's not just that. I really didn't like how he never posted again after being posed 368 and 374. Both posts could easily be answered by town. Not answering my question in the former makes me think 230 was just a coastal pass to have it appear he was scumhunting, as well.

Who are the scummiest people to you on this wagon?

[Ricastle]

Yes, that's the plan, unless you're implying you have a better one.

[Ricastle]

I would if I had any other than jbomber or Grib.

Speaking of scumreads, do you actually have any proper ones yourself? Because all I've seen you do is sheep and vote lurkers.

[Ricastle]

In terms of my vote, yes. I'm still keeping in the conversation (of what little there is). If anything comes up, the plan may change, but at the moment I have no reason to press anything.

Rubicon, is everyone else in the game null, then?

[Ricastle]

Not any longer. I'd be interested in further reasons other than "not wanting to look bad".

I really didn't like how he never posted again after being posed 368 and 374. Both posts could easily be answered by town. Not answering my question in the former makes me think 230 was just a coastal pass to have it appear he was scumhunting, as well.

Who are the scummiest people to you on this wagon?

It's not the questioning of a wagon, it's the

over-the-top

questioning of a wagon. Slight difference. Enough to ping.

What makes it over-the-top? And do you even think the case on jbomber is good?

[Ricastle]

I don't see anything wrong with that post, personally.

It's less introspection and more criticising the wagon for poor logic, which he extrapolates on in 665. So, yeah. That still doesn't explain what's over-the-top about the reaction, either.

[Ricastle]

Expounds. Whatever.

[Ricastle]

@Ricastle, I saw that observation and was asking if there was any more to it.

Oh, okay. I could relay the point more extensively, but in terms of actual material that's all I've got.

If jbomber is scum and there is scum on the wagon my biggest suspect would be Garmr. Not sure about anyone else, however among the rest Creative is my least positive read.

Also ISOing them now I realise they haven't actually given any explanation as to why they voted jbomber, or why they scumread him in 395. Could you shed some light on this, please, Creative?

[Ricastle]

Ah, I got you. It's all good bub.

[Ricastle]

Deadline extension? Christ I hope not. We should just lynch jbomber and be done with this day if it comes to that.

[Ricastle]

In fact, we should lynch mafia, is he mafia?

Also ISOing [Creative] now I realise they haven't actually given any explanation as to why they voted jbomber, or why they scumread him in 395. Could you shed some light on this, please, Creative?

[Ricastle]

What has your avatar seen to get that messed up?

[Ricastle]

Probably the VC

[Ricastle]

In that post I was going under the logic that elusive & Rubicon (who know Grib's game extremely well) wouldn't both misread Grib and put him in a townbloc if he was mafia. I don't think all three would need to be mafia in that situation however.

Moreover, I was then fixated on the idea of Grib!SK and have been townreading the former two for almost the entire game, which was why I said that as it matched up with my exact reads at the time.

What do you think about the townbloc?

[Ricastle]

Nothing. It became quickly obvious after 424 that a Grib wagon was not going to happen today, so I switched to another scumread.

[Ricastle]

also I don't really want to lynch vampirate now that he's doing stuff

Who do you want to lynch then? We only have 3 rl days left.

What are these Things you want to Do, Grib?

[Ricastle]

So... instead of giving either of the larger wagons a majority, you made it a three-way tie instead of the two-way tie that it already was?

How does this resolve with your statement about divided votes making it too easy for scum to hide, again?

Tbf, he chainsawed Grib soon after, and the other wagon was...himself.

[Ricastle]

Those weren't my townreads. They were everyone who I'd noticed had either scumread or commented negatively on jbomber before that hadn't already taken a stance on wagoning him. But indeed, half of them were in fact townreads, and another was a townlean.

[Ricastle]

Wrong.

The fact it weakens the potential position of scum to make a VT claim by definition means it cannot be null because he said nothing that would weaken a town member's position to offset that hit that scum!Garmr would be taking.

His replace out post was leantown, and idk how you can possibly view it as null.

It's null because it would be unreasonable to lean either town or scum over that statement. I explained in that very post why he might do that as scum.

I was responding to your first sentence. Not the second one.

Oh, okay. I assumed you were responding to both.

[Ricastle]

Which was what I challenged in 643. :l

[Ricastle]

Why is Peace scum?

[Ricastle]

How is your win condition worded?

Um, bro? There's a sample VT PM in the first post.

I can see your point in 804. Thet wasn't his only post like that either. However, why is commenting on a point of discussion, regardless of relevancy, scummy? And why exactly are you townreading Vamp?

831 is pretty flippin' bad. Seems like Skold is trying to discredit the question so he doesn't need to answer it himself, while simultaneously setting up an excuse if he ends up having to and answers wrong. He's evidently unaware of the sample PM at this time as well.

[Ricastle]

WTF? Request wasn't directed at me. I wouldn't have to answer anyway. The request was just bad.

Precisely. So why was your 'attack' so defensive? Why did you feel the need to make theoretical excuses you could fall back on in the future if you ever WERE asked that question? Why are you a living chainsaw?

Of course you don't know who's scum; all you've done so far is attack people for no rhyme or reason and provided actual insight about jack shit.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Skold

[Ricastle]

I'm suggesting you stop sheeping and attacking random people over minor shit, and start actually scumhunting. You know, that thing town does to try and lynch scum?

Do you even have reads?

[Ricastle]

Umm, no.

You aren't gonna mislynch me this game.

I'm looking more towards Xayzeck, Ricastle, maybe Davesaz...

I'm thinking Grib now too.

I thought Grib was obvtown?

Being fine with lynching both me and Grib when the reason you want to lynch me is because I want to set up/am too eager to lynch Grib is also laughable.

[Ricastle]

It was to Skold.

[Ricastle]

Most of Skold's questionable actions seem more like poor play than scummy play, as I've said in earlier posts. Working on this assumption, I think if Skold was scum it would be more obvious. Even if he arrives at odd conclusions, Skold's motivations seem to be much more based on the intent to scumhunt than the intent to misdirect.

Your chain of thought is logical. However, it only applies under the assumption that Skold is a generally bad player. I find it more likely that he's playing badly because he's scum.

His actions to me seem like he has no intentions other than to fan flames and get as many people under suspicion as possible. He's just attacking people for the sake of attacking and I don't know if he's actually gained anything from it himself. Considering he still apparently has no idea who's scum (865) it makes out more like he's pretending to scumhunt rather than actually doing so.

Still, I don't like the way he just dismissed the Vampriate wagon without really giving a reason other than "I think he's town so he's town".

jbomber's RQS answers did it for me (specifically #2). I highly doubt he'd try anything manipulative as scum in a post nobody will even read or take in. And I also doubt someone who'd concoct a scheme like that would cave in and give up if they got wagoned.

Speaking of that, it's possible that jbomber didn't ask to be replaced at all - the OP stated that if a player did not respond adequately to a prod, they would be replaced. jbomber may have effectively shrugged at the prod, having not bothered to keep up with the game, and be replaced that way.

[Ricastle]

Just some of the stuff Grib says, is he being sarcastic or does he actually want to be lynched? I'm sure he's Town... but I've been wrong before.

I'm focused mainly on you and Xayzeck right now.

UNVOTE:

Would you like to lynch Grib or not?

[Ricastle]

Isn't Nero just talking in general?

Ftr, if Skold flipped scum, I'd definitely be more inclined towards a town Boon.

[Ricastle]

Why? His defense of Boon? I take that as null, really.

So do I. I don't think Skold would have voted Boon in 440 if they were both scum - there was literally no reason to bus him at the time, and a random pressure vote on a buddy is nonsensical.

We shouldn't lynch Xey today. I'd like to give him time to get into the game first, and there is little of said time left for both that and getting a wagon on him.

[Ricastle]

Time is critical; it's imperative we lynch now. Vamp, Grib, Rubicon, elusive, get off your vanity wagons. Kitz & Creative, please vote.

[Ricastle]

Just quickly, top town/scum reads right now?

Top townreads are BagelS, Nero and House. Top scumreads are Skold, Grib and Klingon.

At this point, a Skold flip is the most enlightening option available. For one, it'll tell lots about Xay and his wagon, which is untrue on the reverse.

[Ricastle]

I'm definitely not very posty this game, but does that make me scummy, or does it make me scum.

I don't like the definition you're trying to make here. Seems like a ploy to excuse acting scummy in the future.

[Ricastle]

I'm always a minority on no lynch and then someone flips town and I hate it so much.

It's between Skold and Vampirate based on the last VC? Ugh

Town or scum, roleflips are far more important than you're making out. Especially in the case of Skold - his death will tell us tons.

Do you have any past games that show a Day 1 No Lynch being good for town?

992 is interesting. I'll keep an eye on this exchange.

[Ricastle]

Ricastle, every game where town is lynched day one is my proof.

That's not sufficient or correct. Firstly, it is NOT by any means guaranteed a townie will be lynched Day 1 in any game so a No Lynch is only really logical in hindsight. Secondly, there's a world of difference between a Day 1 town lynch being bad and a Day 1 No Lynch being good; what does it actually

do

to help town? Thirdly, you're severely downplaying the importance of flips, town or scum. VCA based on a town lynch flip is a key area to press in the next day, as well as generally analysing relationships and reads with or about the lynchee. Fourthly, if the lynch target is uncooperative, unhelpful, or a lurker, not much is being lost by lynching them (and people will just try again the next day under NL), and substantial information is gained.

No Lynching is bad because the Mafia alone get to choose the new information town has on Day 2. They can simply kill the most townread player and town will have learned nothing significant of their own. It's pretty much a restart of Day 1 with less town.

I'm simply trying to make something clear, you gain nothing as town wagoning a slot that lurks without showing scum motivatio. It feels like I'm being voted because I'm lurking at lurking is bad, but that's about as deep as these votes go

Yeah. I just don't like how you worded that part.

[Ricastle]

It's too fucking late for anything else. Just vote Skold.

[Ricastle]

We'll see about the 'lives' part tomorrow if NL happens.

[Ricastle]

Talk about dog-eat-dog.

Can't wait for this flip.

[Ricastle]

...Well, that's SK out of the window.

The Doc must have protected someone fairly townread/obvious. I'd say the most likely of which would have to be me, BagelS, or Nero. I'll see if I can find anything based off of that now.

By the way, I don't really care that Skold flipped town. He brought it on himself as far as I'm concerned.

[Ricastle]

Ricastle, you have much to answer for. I shall see you hang. You don't care that Skold flipped town? That's a wasteful and degenerate attitude to have towards town. Burn a little, will you?

OH and guess what Ricastle you are not in the list of most fairly townread\obvious players. Far from it, honey. Although your list of people who are "fairly townread/obvious" is humorous.

Of course I don't care. I didn't like his playstyle and he was acting scummily (his last post was especially wtf-tier). As I said, he brought it on himself.

I was the unchallenged most townread player D1 and it's funny how you think you can question that. Creative, Peace, Errant, Grib, Rubicon, House, and I think BagelS (?) all townread me. That's 6-7 players off the top of my head. I realise this comes off as extremely arrogant but I'm only bringing it up to destabilise your unfounded discredit.

Who do you think was most likely to have been attacked last night?

[Ricastle]

House's actions yesterday would be truly awful play if he is scum, which makes me unconfident in that respect. But I really don't like Kitz's opening here, so for now

VOTE: Kitz

Rubicon: That's not relevant in this angle of discussion. Elusive merely contested that I was not even close to being the most townread player D1 and I responded as to how I evidently was.

[Ricastle]

Rubicon: That's not relevant in this angle of discussion.

Consider it a new angle, then. My question stands.

No it doesn't. I already explained the only reason I had for making that statement. The point was specifically about material townreads, their legitimacy be damned. I'm not assuming anything as it is not a decisive take on the game, merely a counterpoint to elusive's.

[Ricastle]

Well, the only non-townread of mine I mentioned was Grib. I'm hardly going to downplay the reads based on that alone. 5-6 v 1 is no contest and shouldn't have an impact on wether or not I deserve to be NKed.

[Ricastle]

I'm not sure why in a game of such proportions and a stable of at least half-way competent players you keep making it seem like you're getting NKed is a given or that the possibility of being NKed would somehow townfirm a player.

I'm bringing it up because the Doc and the Mafia evidently thought the same way last night, so their target must have stuck out somewhat yesterday. Who do you think is an obvious enough target to have gotten protected and attacked last night?

However, what I would like to see from you Ricastle is a logical thought process. Therefore, can you build a case on Kitz?

I don't think a single thing she's said has been genuinely progressive. She has no reads (bar saying Creative

might

be her first townread early on), hammered Skold, and the only time she's discussed about players is when that player is her and she's on the defence, attempting to excuse her passive coasting.

Do you see anyone on the Skold wagon who tips of your scum radar?

Other than Kitz, Klingon. I believe she voted more out of obligation than anything though.

Do you think any of the people who are town reading you could be buddying or maybe, your just not that into them?

What do you mean? I just said I was townreading all but one of them so of course I don't think they're buddying. Do you think any of them could be buddying?

[Ricastle]

Are you confident scum!House would put his neck on the line to get a townlynch? Because I'm not.

[Ricastle]

And why do you still want to kill Boon?

[Ricastle]

Nothing. What concerns me is how aggressive he was about both lynching Skold and defending Xay. Seems to me like a terrible strategy for the House+Xay scumteam you're proposing.

I'm under the impression Boon has been playing his standard game so far. Why would you be willing to PL over two of your scumreads?

[Ricastle]

Why do you think they are town? Just 'cause "House wouldn't do that as scum"?

I liked House a lot yesterday. Xay, I'm null on. I think House hard defending his partner and pushing a mislynch would simply be absurd to perform if he was thinking so much as a day ahead. I find it a lot more believable for Xay to be town in this scenario, but I'd like House to say something before going further with this.

this is pretty strawmanny, bro.

Your reasoning on Boon is as good as policy. I'm simply asking, in what situation would you push for a Boon PL over two players you're actively scumreading?

[Ricastle]

These 3+ page arguments are seriously messing up my flow.

House, who are your top scumrwads right now?

[Ricastle]

What do you think of Vampirate now then?

[Ricastle]

Okay, ISOing House now, I see you gave one reason as to why Vamp isn't scum, but all it was was "town can also be survivalist". You didn't say what Vamp/Jbomber actually

did

to be obvtown. Can you expound on this please?

[Ricastle]

Bella, what did you think Grib was referencing?

[Ricastle]

didn't like how he essentially turned tied to a player I thought was clearly town, I don't like his general approach. Granted those things can be null but I suspect house. I don't go making up stuff, he raises my alarms. He is worth running up imo.

What has House done that's raised your alarms other than those two things?

[Ricastle]

I really only stopped hard scumreading Vamp's slot because I trusted House. It has since come to my attention that he has not actually done anything to prove the contrary. Suffice to say I'd be willing to sheep him over Kitz, but first.

Vamp, how are you reading Klingon?

[Ricastle]

I

did

trust him. I liked his approach and confidence, but that mostly went to pot after the Skold flip.

[Ricastle]

Do you trust me?

Do you still town read Hose?

If so, what do you think of House saying that the Skold flip is making him rethink his reads?

What do you think of Celt basically selectively scumreading me for being confident in my House read?

Honestly, not really. My heart still says you're town though. On the other hand, I'm struggling to see your clashes with House as tvt but I can't make out which of you is the scum within it, so you're both floating around the null area right now.

Can you quote where Klingon effectively said that? And I thought you were waiting for her response as to why she finds you scummy because she hasn't answered yet? Although that's bad in itself.

Ricastle, 1231 seems anti-town. Why did you ask that?

Grib said he made up the Dave townslip to get reactions from Dave. I'm asking what Bella thought she saw that was it.

[Ricastle]

Ricastle, the reaction part was about Boon.

The dave townslip is very real.

[Ricastle]

Ignore that.

Ricastle, the reaction part was about Boon.

The dave townslip is very real.

Well you sure made that clear...

If you believed my read was good pre-flip, why would that change post-flip? My reasoning should be judged on its own merits. Based on the mindset of your post, town never mislynches.

I didn't specifically like you because of your reasoning on Skold; in fact, I can't even remember what your reasoning was. I liked you because of how confident you were about the conclusions you made from that reasoning.

[Ricastle]

Why was House's confidence in a Skold scum flip towny and my confidence in my scumreads scummyish?

It's not one or the other. I didn't trust you because your confidence was mostly on Boon, which frankly, held no water. That doesn't mean I thought it was scummy, just that I didn't agree with your direction.

What things worry you?

It's too back-and-forth. You both went at each other's necks equally hard which marred my beliefs about you both (for your reasoning against each other). I can't imagine two town continuously presenting points I agree with against each other, and two scum would not go for a second round.

And as I said, I have no clue what to make of it. I'd like to believe you're both town but my conscious is fervently doubting it.

ffs.

1) Nero believes he's reading House correctly, so he's Town

OR

2) Nero

lies about

reading House correctly this game, because he's Scum.

So it's one or the other. I don't know which.

That you're obsessing on it bugs me lots.

You realise this reasoning is literally no more than "Nero could be scum"? And you're FoSing him for it?

[Ricastle]

there is not enough attention being paid to skold lynch other than the loudest pusher. Who was quietly on that or egging it on?

Bella said she was "pretty sure" Skold was scum yet never pushed him. Looking back, that does seem pretty weird. (902)

[Ricastle]

So how the fuck is that grounds to FoS him? What was your motive behind making that statement?

[Ricastle]

Ricastle interacted with Skold a lot, in a way that made it seem like he thought Skold was scummy. But he didn't actually call Skold scum until after voting him.

To clarify, I was scumleaning Skold since his entrance.

there is not enough attention being paid to skold lynch other than the loudest pusher. Who was quietly on that or egging it on?

Bella said she was "pretty sure" Skold was scum yet never pushed him. Looking back, that does seem pretty weird. (902)

I might see what you're referring to, but am not sure. Are you basing this off the one post, or more? And did you pay attention to when it was?

The post is right there, in parentheses.

I agree with most of what you said, Vamp. I took a strictly negative stance on 881 though, and my bigger issue with her exchange with Nero is she's suspecting him for pretty much no reason.

Truthfully, a Klingon wagon is what I feel most comfortable doing right now. Anyone else share this sentiment?

[Ricastle]

Highly active?!?!? Wtf?

Got anything of value to say?

[Ricastle]

His obsession over a trivial post. The paranoia's ridiculous.

The FoS came before Nero's "obsession". You initially FoSed him based on the reasoning that he could be scum; why did you do

that

?

[Ricastle]

Oh, so you're FoSing House, which is why you said he was townish and Nero was scummish on the previous page, right? You're not just trying to deflect a question you can't answer?

Seems legit.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Klingoncelt

[Ricastle]

His obsession over a trivial post. The paranoia's ridiculous.

The FoS came before Nero's "obsession". You initially FoSed him based on the reasoning that he could be scum; why did you do

that

?

The trivial post is why I FoS'd him. It was meaningless for him to say what he did. And there was all the arguing with House.

I have them both at Null right now. House is looking Townish kinda sorta. Nero is looking Scummish kinda sorta. But they're both grey right now.

[Ricastle]

No, I want to lynch you because you are continually, deliberately missing the point. Like here, it's quite clear I am trying to prove you are not reading House and Nero on the same level, which is your only defence, and you are

not

FoSing them for the same shit regardless.

From where I'm standing, you didn't show any indication you were FoSing Nero because of the arguments before being pressed about it. You greatly exaggerated how Nero is obsessed/tunnelling when your initial reasoning was blatantly terrible, and anyone being FoSed for it would pursue it; making out that Nero is being unreasonable for doing so makes it seem like a setup. And now that your new excuse was ripped apart easily, you're floundering, and threatening me with consequences if you're lynched, which is

not fucking town motivated.

[Ricastle]

You know what, you're right, elusive. I'll just stop playing the game.

Like, come on. I'm not going to go and sulk in the corner because I pushed a mislynch D1. It happens. The only way to move forward in a game is to get over it and keep playing.

[Ricastle]

Trust the boon. His reads are usually pretty good. Vote Klingon.

Give us some other reads then.

[Ricastle]

If you actually believe that's effectively the case on Klingon then you're not even trying and I'm ignoring you.

[Ricastle]

What an absolute joke.

You're singling out specific posts to make me seem as bad as possible. No way could you have missed these (the last one was even ADDRESSED TO YOU):

I think it's very likely considering the game size, personally. 18 players is too many for merely 4 mafia to be adequate and too few for 5. Maybe if they had a Godfather I guess, but I'd sooner suspect there's a third party.

The townbloc is serious for sure. It's almost entirely meta-based, which makes me confident Rubicon/elusive know what they're talking about in regards to town/mafia Grib. (This is also partially why I'm SK-reading him.) If Grib flipped mafia, I would seriously be questioning how both Rubicon and elusive, players that are supposed to know him very well, could fuck up like that. This is another reason I think Grib's SK, as I'm townreading them both strongly right now.

I agree on BagelS.

Pedit: I never stopped scumreading you, you know. Rubicon & elusive effectively putting the mafia case on you to rest did halt me temporarily, but I just couldn't believe you're town with how you've played up till now. SK is the only other option that makes sense.

And didn't you say it was likely there was a third party in this game earlier, as well?

Rubicon and elusive are townreading/leaning on him, and while I disagree, it's not very logical to do so when they know his town and mafia games better than anyone else in this game. It would make more sense that he slipped through them if he was an SK. That's all this specific read is about.

Errant, that's not the issue here.

And I must make this fundamentally clear:

No you are not by any means necessarily an SK. There may not even be a third party in this game. That's the tentative theory I'm running with right now BECAUSE I think you're scum and it matches up better, in my opinion, than a mafia read given the circumstance. As I said: It's that or mafia. I don't care massively at the end of the day.

SK is scum. You know this so stop fucking around.

And my jbomber quote...WAS ROUGHLY TEN PAGES BEFORE HE REPLACED OUT. FUCKING BULLSHIT.

Please, if you think I warped anything in my argument with Skold, name it or your argument is groundless.

I asked Grib because I was just calling out everyone who I'd noticed had shown negative views of jbomber to get the wagon rolling...which guess what, I already said in 801. Nice selective skills.

1260. I find I'm hardly having to say anything here as most of this stuff can already be found in my ISO.

Isn't it obvious why I said that? Nobody died in the night. Unless both kills were blocked by protective roles, there is no SK. Nothing much better to mention that I didn't otherwise in that post for first post of the day, considering the SK thing became a decent-sized topic of discussion the previous day.

This case is visibly rushed, and as a result, you've ignored half my posts to satiate your biased suspicions. I would say good try but you didn't try. You dug yourself into a hole and are piling out with bullshit.

[Ricastle]

Oh, yeah, and it's funny hoe you make out that I'm obsessing over an SK when that all went down across a couple of pages and I never mentioned it again in the day. It would have ended sooner if I wasn't continuously asked about it, too.

[Ricastle]

Meant to disprove...? Nobody died. The most likely scenario is there's no SK. That's undeniable.

Vamp's moves are logical. I trust him for now based on his recent actions. That's all I'll say on the matter.

[Ricastle]

Nero, what are you doing? Why aren't you voting Klingon?

[Ricastle]

@Ricastle: What is your current read on Vampirate?

Null. He has good reason to be defending me.

You're putting too much faith into the townbloc; that's the mistake I made before. I've already answered every other concern of yours.

And on the subject of counterwagons, what do you make of the 'case' on me being a counter to the KC wagon?

[Ricastle]

It is certainly a possibility, but I'm scumreading a lot of KC's wagon and townreading a lot of yours.

Disregarding reads, I'd like you to summarise the two wagons.

1448 looks like a set-up.

Nero, again, why were you never on KC?

[Ricastle]

Who else are you scumreading?

Elusive, Grib & Peace.

[Ricastle]

Well it's great your reads are opposite to mine Klingon because guess what, you're scum. Seriously how is that a point against me?

Also, from what I can gather, your scumreading habit with House sounds like little more than a joke when you claim you 'scumread' him even if you think he's town. At that point bringing it up means shit all.

[Ricastle]

Why is Grib your top townread?

I'll deal with the rest tomorrow.

[Ricastle]

There's also serial killer I mean no serial killer Ricastle.

Do you think I'm an SK? Or are you just flinging shit around?

I also find Ricastle's scum list to be hilarious. You've been on Grib since day one, calling him an SK because you didn't think he was mafia. Now what do you think he is since there is no SK? Mafia, a wee little leprechaun?

I've given up on hoping you'll read my posts at this point, but anyway.

I have been trying to look for a reason as to how scum!Grib got into the townbloc when really, it's been obvious all along - you are scum with him. Rubicon didn't really do anything to perpetuate the townbloc; I can't remember if he's even taken advantage of it at all. He can be town, as while it's unrealistic for one friend to fool two, it certainly is realistic for two friends to fool one.

As much as it confuses me, Klingon is correct about one thing - the townbloc has not been used for offense. It's been used for defence, and there is clear scum motivation behind that.

Obviously you don't know our history.

Why do you think Elusive, Grib & Peace are Scum?

No amount of history makes Schrodinger's Read logical.

Most of why I think Grib is scum should be known by now. His towngame does not match up to this game, as you and others are claiming it does, and he's done next to nothing for most of the game.

Elusive's push on me is a counterwagon to you; this will become clearer at a later date. She's pretty much taking half my ISO out of context and using it to press points I've already answered. Also, the above.

Peace is scum because his actions seem to revolve around knowing more than town should. 1448 also pinged me pretty hard - aside from the town angle, he could either be setting up for more towncred or using prior towncred to defend a buddy. It seems a lot more likely to come from scum, in general. This read is also mainly based on something that will be apparent later down the line.

Pointing out terrible logic is not white knighting, dear child.

Isn't it a bit rude to ask me about my reads but when I ask you why you are town reading House you ignore me?

I think Xay is scum, he's voting scum.

Ah, yeah, sorry. The words weren't with me at the time. I liked his initiative D1 and his pushes for the most part. He's not done anything that stuck out as town today and as I said he's null rn.

I don't know about manipulative. I think you've both muddied each other so much during your arguments that you're going to scumread each other no matter what for the rest of the game, so I don't intend to take a stance on it.

[Ricastle]

lol. Of course you aren't going to say it's a counterwagon, that's the point.

[Ricastle]

speaking of sounding like know more than should, well...

Well...what are you getting at?

"I told you folks skold was a bad vote..." <-- That is fishing for towncred.

[Ricastle]

Well...what are you getting at?

your language used and way you are discussing things sounds like you more than "should." In particular that comment I highlighted.

And I would argue that my statement is arguing for folks to attend to what I say regarding who is and who is not town... nothing more, nothing less. I actually do not expect folks to listen to me, because they typically do not, as folks like made up reasons...

I'm really lost as to how you're getting that from my post honestly. Pinpoint what's ticking you off.

You would argue? That's remarkably indecisive, considering as you wrote the post you should know for a fact the meaning behind it. Also, you more or less just described fishing for towncred.

[Ricastle]

You are talking as if you know for fact that Nero vs House is town and town. I have come to believe that at this point. As to the "fishing for town cred" if that is your definition of it, then it is wtf people around here do with nearly every post... and while I would like to be heard, I damn well do not expect it... I share my thoughts, make my posts the way I do. I am not angry. I find you doing what you accused "Skold" of doing, looking back, which was making something out of nothing. You talk about me taking a complete change of mind and tact, well so have you.

Yeah, because I believe it could well be tvt. Any implication that I'm 100% certain is contrived.

Your post was basically "I was right about Skold, so don't vote Klingon!" In order for the core message to be effective you needed to be viewed as town. That's the purpose of the first sentence, to ascertain you can be trusted. It's fishing for towncred.

Also you clearly have no understanding of the case on Klingon.

[Ricastle]

Why don't you explain the case rationally without sounding like a bit crazed?

Klingon FoSed Nero on the basis that he has a chance of being scum, and seemingly nothing more. (1245) She then went on to make out Nero was obsessing over it, which was suddenly the reason she was FoSing him? (1358) And then after some pressing from me & Nero she says that the reason she was suspecting Nero was because she didn't like how he dragged on the argument with House and was obsessing over him. (1377) After Nero then asked why she wasn't also FoSing House for it, she said she actually was FoSing House. However, it seems like the only reason for that is that her and House scumread eachother every game; even when she thinks House is town. (1384) (1387) (1475) This proves that it's not to be taken seriously, and was nothing more than an excuse used to avoid explaining why she isn't FoSing House over his obsession of Nero and dragging out the argument, of which they both did equally. After I called her out on all this she made some absurd threats which certainly does not look like town behaviour. (1391)

Long story short, Klingon panned suspicion onto Nero for no reason, used the subsequent events to try and justify it, and continuously avoided giving any further reasoning. When she did give reasoning, it was undermined instantly, and when she couldn't defend it, she devolved into OMGUSing and strawmanning until elusive showed up with an ACTUAL chainsaw.

Oh, and for non-recent events, we have 755, 881, 889, and 923 all in conjunction. She starts by attacking me on the basis that the townbloc is obvtown, then opportunistically jumping on "obvtown" Grib when he makes an obvious joke post, and for a time is apparently fine with lynching both me and Grib, despite the reason for her suspecting me being that Grib is obvtown. She immediately retracts her hasty read when I press her on it.

Also you seem to emphasize meta with Grib therefore have you metaed Klingon Celt?

I only care about meta when it's brought up to defend/excuse a player's actions, as did happen with Grib. As far as I can see the same cannot be said for Klingon.

Also note, that in make such a statement, you by and large are aknowledging that I am town. Now wether that is a read or that you really truly now me to be town because you scum is the question.

No I'm not. It's a neutral statement. Scum certainly can fail to understand a case.

As to that comment. This is by and large what every one does at some level. Hey, you should listen to me.
Do I need to go through your ISO and outline where you have made statements that are urging folks to trust you. Your sluffing off the wrong Skold read and blaming Skold's play for your bad read is one example. It is "I am town, I was wrong, but screw it, listen to me anyway as I am the bestest town ever."

Precisely, AT SOME LEVEL. Your post was at the bad end of the scale.

I can tell you really struggled to fit "listen to me" into that misrepresentative paraphrase. The situation really isn't comparable at all.

[Ricastle]

this whole post is all kinds of awful...
Nero's behavior is a reaction fish, not everyone who is town is aware of such and it is why he fished so effectively. KC reactions are typical of what people resond around here. They start FOSing. KC and House both confirmed they have a history and the FOS is part of their foreplay... so right now if you are town Ricastle, you are engaging in a lot of confirm bias and failing to take motivations into play... much like Skold, if town, you are picking on things null and actually happen frequently from town. now if scum, you are able to make LOL cases on things that may get others to bite. I cannot really sort out which is which with you at this point. your "case" on me now is the same nonsense and certainly does not explain your "flip."

You evidently need to learn to read because you're still acting as if my reasoning boils down to "Klingon FoSed Nero". I just explicitly stated how that is not true. I also not only acknowledged Klingon and House's FoSing schtick but

used it to show how Klingon was bullshitting about her FoS on Nero.

and if you are town, this is you projecting into what I said and making inferences. And yes, in this game we make inferences. Yet, at other times, you make posts that seem to suggest that you do really know I am town and it comes off that you are undecided if you want to push me or not, so you keep leaving room to see if others will pile own. Now certainly, you have made it clear you are far more convinced on KC.
Let's say for arguement that I and others decide to follow you "again" and KC gets lynched and ends up town. Are you going to again come with "oh, her fault her play sucked?" And then are you going to simply hone on me next? Why did you abandon other avenues that were discussed?

What do inferences have to do with anything? What are these posts? And you tell me I'm pulling shit out of thin air...

What is the purpose of those theoretical questions and how does it relate to the part you quoted? And I didn't abandon anything. You inquired, I answered. How am I supposed to push a player that isn't fucking posting?

if KC and I are co-scum, I am going to be aware of what the reactions are. The statement as it is posted, suggests that there is more going on. Of course I can be inferring too much from the statement, granted. But such things never happen in these games now do they? And you certainly never infer anything, right?

You should be aware of the reactions regardless if you're being lambasted for making stupid incorrect simplifications. Town that legitimately wants to sort the game out would look back and see what I was talking about, but you continue to act completely clueless when the case was as laid out as it needed to be already. I'm still confused as to what you're talking about inferences when I haven't even mentioned the word before now.

[Ricastle]

@Ricastle - I honestly think elusive is town even though I disagree with her points on Klingoncelt. I find it hard that Scum would make themselves so visible defending who they think is town. She is at least is making where she stands clear.

Scum could easily do that too. And if she is scum imitating her town game then she would definitely do that.

[Ricastle]

Ricastle- well actually you are doing plenty at this point to convince me you are a wrong-headed arrogant piece of work who is so convinced of own rightness that you filter everything through it.

I made the point about inferences. No you stated nothing about inferences but are making plenty. Certainly making many about me and your case on KC is filled with inference. You even ignored 1/2 my comments and really only talked about the "FOS" bit which whatever they say is WIFOM. Then you obsess about there response to players whose flip is not yet known. As I said, KC is probably a breakable egg like Xay seems and like Skold ended up. Could I be wrong, sure, but I doubt it her. Let me ask you this, if KC gets lynched and does flip town, are you going to do another oopsie, don't mind me, her fault bit?

At any rate, got go back and see if I want to move back to bella or another suspect...

I don't have a clue what you're talking about and I'm not sure I care anymore. You're completely full of shit and haven't backed up anything you've said so don't expect a compromise when you can't succinctly make a single point yourself.

Whatever. We are clearly as incompatible as you can get. No point taking these useless interactions any further.

[Ricastle]

I'm waiting for Ricastle to provide a solid case on why he's voting you. A rational and calm one.

This is the last time I will do this for you. If the following doesn't count as 'rational and calm' then you can get out of here.

Klingon FoSed Nero on the basis that he has a chance of being scum, and seemingly nothing more. (1245) She then went on to make out Nero was obsessing over it, which was suddenly the reason she was FoSing him? (1358) And then after some pressing from me & Nero she says that the reason she was suspecting Nero was because she didn't like how he dragged on the argument with House and was obsessing over him. (1377) After Nero then asked why she wasn't also FoSing House for it, she said she actually was FoSing House. However, it seems like the only reason for that is that her and House scumread eachother every game; even when she thinks House is town. (1384) (1387) (1475) This proves that it's not to be taken seriously, and was nothing more than an excuse used to avoid explaining why she isn't FoSing House over his obsession of Nero and dragging out the argument, of which they both did equally. After I called her out on all this she made some absurd threats which certainly does not look like town behaviour. (1391)

Long story short, Klingon panned suspicion onto Nero for no reason, used the subsequent events to try and justify it, and continuously avoided giving any further reasoning. When she did give reasoning, it was undermined instantly, and when she couldn't defend it, she devolved into OMGUSing and strawmanning until elusive showed up with an ACTUAL chainsaw.

Oh, and for non-recent events, we have 755, 881, 889, and 923 all in conjunction. She starts by attacking me on the basis that the townbloc is obvtown, then opportunistically jumping on "obvtown" Grib when he makes an obvious joke post, and for a time is apparently fine with lynching both me and Grib, despite the reason for her suspecting me being that Grib is obvtown. She immediately retracts her hasty read when I press her on it.

[Ricastle]

He has no case.

He's WKing Nero.

The "case" is that I scumread Nero but not House, when in fact I always scumread House. In this game I'm not scumreading House as much as I am Nero. I have Nero ever so slightly

leaning

scum. But they're both grey.

Ricastle, however, has gone into my Scum pile.

lmao. Bullshit at its finest.

Why is your scumread on House justified pertaining to THIS game?

[Ricastle]

As has been said repeatedly, he and I have a history. We own it. Deal.

This is why I am voting you.

I'll ask again. Is there anything House has actually done in this game to make you scumread him or is it entirely based on your history?

[Ricastle]

"Someone calling you out for not making sense isn't white-knighting, even if they are attacking your read on another player."

The problem is that mine was a soft read.

Nero and Ricastle both made a HUGE mountain out of a molehill.

In any other game what I typed would have been ignored or considered fluff. I can't fucking believe everyone is taking my look at nero so fucking seriously.

Maybe if I were jumping up and down screaming for his lynch based on next to nothing, yeah, sure I could see a case there, but right now all I see are Ricastle and Nero making noise around me.

You outright said you FoSed Nero. How is that not to be taken seriously?

Can you explain the significant difference between pushing for a lynch based on nothing and FoSing based on nothing, and why one is acceptable while the other is not?

[Ricastle]

Boon, why is Rubicon scum?

[Ricastle]

I answered that. History.

Then you've proven my point.

[Ricastle]

And not reading my posts doesn't make you understand them. I have already provided answers to both those questions.

[Ricastle]

Okay, I meta'd Klingon and I can ascertain her play in her 4 most recent games (2 town 2 scum) is not the same as her play here at all. She's usually a lot more aggressive and assertive regardless of alignment. The only relevant thing I could find was that her claim about her history with House is true, which I never doubted.

To make the point relating to her history clear: In 1377 Klingon stated the reason for her FoS on Nero was his argument with House and how he dragged it on and obsessed over it. In 1383 Nero responded as to why she wasn't FoSing House for that as well. In 1384 she replied that she was FoSing House, as their history dictated that they always scumread each other. However, she isn't FoSing House for the same reason as Nero, showing that she's being selective in her suspicions. Also, considering she was using said FoS as an excuse, you'd think there would be some remotely serious reasoning behind it, but there isn't. (1367) She's FoSing House for the sake of convention and using it as a defence.

[Ricastle]

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=61108 (scum)
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=54&t=60334 (town)
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=60635 (town)
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=56&t=60385 (Hippie is scum, right?)

Keep in mind I had to skim these games pretty hard in order to gather information at a decent pace.

[Ricastle]

I don't disagree, although I wouldn't say those town games represent her play here, either. She's a lot more defensive, for one.

[Ricastle]

*defensive in this game

[Ricastle]

Sounds like a plan though I have to convince the rest of the town you are scum.

Give me a good reason to move off of Klingon.

[Ricastle]

there is not enough attention being paid to skold lynch other than the loudest pusher. Who was quietly on that or egging it on?

Bella said she was "pretty sure" Skold was scum yet never pushed him. Looking back, that does seem pretty weird. (902)

This is the Bella 'case' in its entirety. I don't believe it goes deeper than that bar "LOL LURKER". (Although who did she replace again?)

Xay, how are you reading Elusive?

If the Dave townslip is what I think it is, I'm with Creative - it's not remotely alignment indicative.

[Ricastle]

I wouldn't describe bellaphant as a lurker exactly, so that can't be the case on her. Her slot has more posts than RationalMadman and more content than Xay or Boon.

Do you think there's nothing in those 19 posts to judge her alignment by?

I haven't really noticed/paid attention to her. I'll probably ISO her in the morning.

She replaced bewilderbeast.

That explains my lack of a read on her then.

[Ricastle]

VOTE: bellaphant

I like this bandwagons for 2 reasons.

1) peace and rubicon are voting them and both seem towny enough to me.

2) If klingoncelt was looking for an easy bw to get attention off him, i bet he'd bus so when he dies they look towny.

You think Klingon is scum, then? If so, why are you voting Bella instead of her?

[Ricastle]

I've concluded that the Bella slot is town. I loved her intuition and thought progression - she seemed like she was genuinely sorting the game with every post. She also defended one of the only points against her uncountered (1360), and, more importantly, was scumreading KC, and now has a KC counterwagon building on her.

Isn't it funny how every counterwagonee to KC has been scumreading her? And isn't it funnier how Peace and KC have been on both those wagons?

[Ricastle]

Holy shit, solid content from Grib. Makes me actually question my scumread on him a bit.

Xayzeck is town, if only for multiple of my scumreads scumreading him. I guess he could be a sacrificial lamb but I'd sooner assume he's just low-hanging fruit.