New York 182 - Game Over

[Antihero]

VOTE: marquis

I DON'T KNOW ABOUT YOU

BUT I'M FEELIN' TWENTY TWOOOOO

[Antihero]

you're right

i'm actually 23


... i'm so old...

[Antihero]

VOTE: choof
I forgot about this one Boon

what's the context of this...?

[Antihero]

hey sakura

i think it's awesome that you didn't say hi to me

[Antihero]

VOTE: varsoon

[Antihero]

do you love me now, sakura?

[Antihero]

this game is now about figuring out who gorkington's main is

i say ap

[Antihero]

hahahahaha

silver dog
silver dog
silver dog
silver dog
silver dog

[Antihero]

spoilsport

[Antihero]

i
i din't mean to be rude

i didn't want to maek him leave

[Antihero]

???????????

i thought "dufus" was the name calling part, not the "dog" part

also, sindce i passed the soberitey threshold a while ago, absolutelys no one should hbe taking me seriously

i'm sorry if i'm offending you

[Antihero]

someone was being rude.....?

...


i'm either too drunk to know what's going on or i'm just on a completely different wavelength than silverwolf and choof

[Antihero]

That also literally doesn't matter - apologize via PMs.

i don't know i'm just goofing off now everyone's pissed at me

i'll let it be i guess

[Antihero]

VOTE: silverwolf

[Antihero]

Just make a case on Antihero when he says something scummy, pressure the fuck out if him and if he starts lurking lynch.

you've never played w/ me when i'm town...

where did you get this from?

[Antihero]

is hated normal?

[Antihero]

varsoon claimed hated

Ya'll honkies need to jump off for real.
Gonna go ahead an let you all know I'm hated. I think that's something people should claim earlier than later.
Thor loves running up early wagons, by the by. I used to be pissed at this thing, but now I think it's cute.

[Antihero]

the monkey wrench w/ hateds is the lylo clause. i don't know there's a "normalized" version of hated...

hold on. research.

[Antihero]

there can be 1-2 not totally gonked up roles that arent on the list of normal roles.

uh... yeah, but everything still has to be "normalized." they have 3 people review it for normalcy. mods don't have a lot of leeway to add "just whatever" to their setups in normal games. everything is pretty rigidly defined

[Antihero]

Although i haven't been around for a while, is there still this thing about 1 non-normal role on normals and 2 non-normal roles on large normals?

no

the stick up the nrg's ass has considerably increased in size in the time you were here, sakura. see: hydras being disallowed from normals

whats the lylo clause and why would it be more likely to bar existence of a hated vs a doublevoter?

A Translation of Thor's intent for those that don't know him:

why translate thor?

"lylo clause" = "does the hated modifier go away in lylo?"
it's important b/c of the quickhammer implications in endgame. it affects the balance A LOT. it's the difference between an effective named townie and a way for scum to autowin if they even GET to lylo.

is there a normal standard for hated? i just looked through larges and i don't see anyone using hated so i'm doing mini's now.

[Antihero]

could have same issue with a doublevoter.

doublevoter is whitelisted and has precedence

hated is NOT whitelisted and has NEVER been used in any normal setup before

i'm not hammering on this because LOLSETUPSPEC. i'm hammering on this b/c hated is a claim that buys you pretty cheap towncred but is impossible to verify and in this case i'm having doubts that it's even possible

i don't buy the claim

VOTE: varsoon

[Antihero]

that wasn't even close to a hammer

[Antihero]

fake hammer gambits are for mediocre players, house

rise above it

[Antihero]

i'm hammering ON it. as in, focusing on examining the claim. i didn't say i hammered literally.

[Antihero]

glorkington

Ya'll honkies need to jump off for real.
Gonna go ahead an let you all know I'm hated. I think that's something people should claim earlier than later.
Thor loves running up early wagons, by the by. I used to be pissed at this thing, but now I think it's cute.

My wagon's as good a place as any to start, though. I'm town.

How's it going, folks?
Hope you like Jay Z.
<a youtube video>

i mean... varsoon's response to the quickwagon isn't even really THAT great b/c "my wagon's as good a place to start" isn't followed up by... anything.

french penguin's first post was stilted, but newbness may or may not play a part in that. i'm at about 60% that is does.

[Antihero]

re-iso after i saw you said something about looking at varsoon's play

it's not particularly telling one way or the other but i definitely think the hated claim is a lot more likely to be a scum gambit than not.

[Antihero]

is varsoonguy usually invested in scumgames?

yes

see: xenogears

[Antihero]

I was as going to do some random RVS stuff just bc but its a bit late for that.

Varsoon is town. His wagon reeks badly of a scum run up. He has not even posted and he is about to get lynched. Unless someone can give me a darn good reason to scum read him than I am going to presume he is town . I would be shocked if there was not atleast a few scum on that wagon

Funny how Choof asked about the Vasoon wagon and he got ran off. I really dont like this. I am pondering if this was townies acting badly or some type of scum tactic.

so yeah tell me why we are running up Vasoon before he even posts.

who are you talking about? specifically

name names

[Antihero]

kittenlick's Post 146 is hilariously ironic, btw

[Antihero]

I think people should consider play first and foremost,

as if roleclaims aren't part of "play."

you're playing a gambit and i'm not letting you get away with it. there's definitely a scum motivation for claiming hated and it's pretty simple. you claim hated and everyone doesn't lynch you because they believe you. and... oh look you even have a lylo clause so no one can justify policy lynching you before lylo.

thing is, in this case, that doesn't stack up with what i know about normals or how the normal review process works or the philosophy behind normals.

here's a quote from the wiki

Mechanics which are explicitly Non-Normal include:

Those affecting a role's alignment (no Cults).

Anything which significantly affects the core mechanic of majority/plurality lynches (no Kingmaker, for example).

Anything resolving with a random element, with the exception of missed night choices. It must be included in the public ruleset if you are resolving night choices in this way.
Post Restrictions (other than those included in the ruleset, such as "No quoting your Role PM").
Lying to the players, including False Role Reveals and "Scum Masons".
Night action redirection (no Bus Driver, Lightning Rod, Nexus, or Redirector).
Returning "No Result" to Trackers who do not see their target go anywhere (in favor of "Your target did not visit anyone").
Alignments other than Mafia/Werewolf, Pro-Town, and Serial Killer (no Survivor, Lyncher, or Jester).
Hydra accounts.

i think it's fair to say that hated pretty significantly affects the core mechanic of majority lynches BECAUSE IT COMPLETELY REMOVES IT. plurality lynches are mostly used for speed games and bulge makes no allowances in the rule set for that so that's not really applicable here.

the spirit of having reviewers look over the set up for "normalcy" is that everyone is on the same page and everyone can go to the wiki and look up how a role is "normally" treated. with hated, there's a pretty big gray area in the lylo clause and there's not a well-defined, standard "way" you can go look up and see how it's treated. and hated's not the only role that's like this. look at the other ones:

Non-Sane Cop, Blank Vig, Non-Sane or Quack Doctor, Janitor, Survivor, Lyncher, Cultist, Jester, Mafia Mason, Bus Driver, Lightning Rod, Nexus, Redirector, Framer.

you see stuff like "redirector" and "bus driver" because it has weird role interactions and brings up questions like "are people TOLD they're bus driven/redirected?" and there's no standardized answer for that because it all varies based on how the mod needs to balance the games.

this kind of speculation could play a role in THEME games, but the NRG doesn't tolerate stuff like this.

the claim is fake and i don't believe it and i think you're scum.

[Antihero]

@Marquis: Then doubt me, but don't give me rope over my claim. If you're going to lynch me, do it over something worth a damn.

well here, how's this?

you're shotgunning w/ the interactions w/ silverwolf. the wagon is sketchy but then silverwolf is awkward herself...? so who's scum, all of them?

[Antihero]

doesnt doublevoter affect daystate in the same way?

DOUBLE VOTER IS CONFIRMED, PUBLIC, ALMOST NEVER HAS A LYLO CLAUSE, HAS BEEN USED BEFORE IN A NORMAL GAME AND IS

FUCKING WHITELISTED

HATED IS NONE OF THOSE THINGS

if you bring up this point again, i will scream

[Antihero]

you can go to the wiki DOUBLE VOTER

they. spell. out. what. its. normal. version. is.

[Antihero]

What exactly are you asking about. Are you talking about my responce to the Vasoon read.,.ie are asking about who you think is scum or are you asking about the names connected to the Choof run off.....

kinda' both because you're acting like those two overlap so i'm asking "who exactly is this?"

i get the feeling choof ran off because he felt like there was a clique he wasn't part of, which... i guess is kind of normal? i don't know. i don't see anyone really sandbagging him like you're suggesting. i'm asking where you're seeing this.

if you are asking about the scum on the Vasoon wagon , I dint know yet. I am sure however that there was scum that jumped on the Vvaoon wagon. As far as the Choof run off. I am talikng about everyone who jumped on the attack Choof wagon that drove him off
In the Mafiacraft game scum Pirate Molly insulted Albert and made him implode. ABR pm Pirate and ended up getting mod killed. Scum Molly got awaay with it clean and also made ABR look scummy.

I hate flash wagon as they allow scum to jump on without looking scummy. Ie I was going with the flash wagon to see people reactions....

ok... the analogy may or may not be valid, i didn't play that game, but now i maybe kind of see why you're thinking the way you are.

still lost on kittenlicks.

[Antihero]

antihero what does nrg stand for? and does that mean in general the site meta has gone from "wild and free and open to new ideas" to "UNIFORMS FOR EVERY1 + STRAITJACKETS SO YOU DON"T HURT YOURSELVES"

nrg = normal review group. when you sign up to mod a normal game, they're the people that look at your setup and give it the thumbs up before you're allowed to run it.

the divide you're talking about is between normals (UNIFORMS) and themes (the wild west). it's the mindset in what the players want when they sign up. thinking about the intricacies of role interactions definitely falls more in the "theme" territory than normals.

[Antihero]

oh wow look at how much that beefy, scum-driven varsoon wagon just started

FUCKING THRIVING

after the hated claim.

[Antihero]

@Anti - I disagree with you that "Hated" is remotely on the same level of the example for changing the way voting works "Kingmaker". Do you honestly believe they are in the same level?

in a large game, it isn't at the beginning, but that's not really the point as what people define as "major" is kind of arbitrary.

when the game gets down to a smaller size it DOES become important because it dictates the day lylo comes on. that's kind of a big thing.

[Antihero]

Wat?
Who is scum on it?

i was being sarcastic in order to show how this narrative of "oh poor pitiful varsoon is such a victim" is ridiculous

[Antihero]

i saw kittenlicks at the bottom of the page a while ago and i am now saddened that he did not see fit to grace us with his presence

[Antihero]

SAKURA i am not getting the same buddying experience from you that thor is apparently getting please fix this

[Antihero]

itt i fail hard at sarcasm

[Antihero]

mhm
mhm
mhm

so, you're still willing to vote me on the basis of your fake hated claim and the fact that i actually have reviewed and designed setups and know what the fuck i'm talking about.

explain that now.

[Antihero]

holy shit lol

UNVOTE:

[Antihero]

i think i want to vote pisskop now

VOTE: pisskop

[Antihero]

.......... what? where did sk come from?

[Antihero]

.......... what? where did sk come from?

From my desire to see him kill somebody.

not really my question.

so you see a kill tell? how do you jump straight to SK instead of scum or vig?

[Antihero]

I am not sold on this yet, some of your more recent posts I thought were more town indicative.

nopenopenopenopenopenopenopenopenope

[Antihero]

oh jeez, did i fart again?

i'm so sorry

[Antihero]

/gasp

i'm a heavyweight...?

/lump in my throat

[Antihero]

i think i want to vote pisskop now

VOTE: pisskop

[expanding on this quickly now that i have a sec]

so my main thing here is that the vote doesn't REALLY track that well with expressed attitude. prime example of what i'm talking about: varsoon. getting off the wagon at Post 239 MIGHT make sense if he's thinking "don't want a lynch yet" but there's no evidence of this mindset anywhere in the surrounding posts. i'm definitely left w/ the impression pisskop is scum reading varsoon at that point, too. across his posting, he accuses varsoon of active lurking/fluff posting Post 249 and doesn't buy the hated claim Post 290. the vote on zzzx Post 249 is really bleh, not on a great person, and not well utilized especially if you're someone scum reading varsoon. it would all be understandable if he was trying to develop GOOD reads elsewhere but he's not. the ones that are there are really anemic and kind of crappy and the rest of the ISO is really just treading water. there's a smattering of lip service about "discussion" (that's always great isn't it) but the actual output is really disappointing. scum reads on zzzx and sw's slot and the vote goes on the weakest link. these reads are just kind of spinning and not going anywhere.

tldr: he's doing exactly what i would expect scum to do w/ the hated claim: nothing, just kind of sit there.

[Antihero]

So you don't have a case. Good to know.

this is a scum response

[Antihero]

Ive seen less reaching in Romero's zombie flocks

right...

why is your vote on zzzx?

[Antihero]

-ZZZX has promised us content, but it must have gotten lost en route.
-Agree that SW is being off

vote: ZZZX

I can't believe you're too lazy to go find it yourself.

that's not a reason...

and simple fact checking would reveal that zzzx did no such thing so i don't even know what you're talking about

[Antihero]

It looks a lot like a scum who doesnt want to give up what he thinks is low hanging fruit, frankly.

But we'll have plenty of time to get aquinted, I can see.

oh

fuck this

total scum response

[Antihero]

you have absolutely no content so you go straight for the douchebaggish, whiny :ehhhhhhhhhhhh ur just scum pickin' on me ehhhhhhhhhhhhhhh" non-argument

puffed
up
bullshit

you have no reason for avoiding voting varsoon and voting zzzx because it's all
made
up
shit.

[Antihero]

c'mon

omgus

i fucking dare you.

[Antihero]

i would lynch you over a mod-confirmed scum right now. that's how much i want you gone at this point.

[Antihero]

i mean... at first i thought it was just bluster. now i still think it's bluster, you've just taken the "shithead" factor up to maximum.

i'm through w/ it.

[Antihero]

and zzzx has posted more content than you, so... you're full of shit on that count.

i'm unbookmarking this for tonight.

[Antihero]

hey droog welcome to the shitfest

i have no idea why i get so worked up over bullshit
i'm going to go drink myself into a coma now

[Antihero]

house that was a statement of fact. it had nothing to do with intent. i did not hammer. i never thought i hammered.

I DIDN'T HAMMER

/sigh

[Antihero]

And you threw out a vote because the role wasnt normal.

the argument is pretty simple

varsoon claims hated --> hated isn't a normal role --> varsoon lied --> varsoon's lied BECAUSE he's scum

i backed out because of the arrow between the 3rd and 4th links. i've played w/ scum varsoon and town varsoon before and lying about being hated is something i could conceivably see him doing as town and actually admitting to lying is something that i really don't see him doing as scum. i wouldn't put it COMPLETELY beyond the pale, but there's reasonable doubts now.

it wasn't just a little bitty thing that i was nitpicking at. it goes to the core of varsoon's alignment. lying about a role claim isn't just something you ignore and setup spec is part of how i scumhunt and part of what i do simply because i've run and reviewed so many games.

Seriously, the more I read over our ISOs the more I'm convinced you are calling the kettle black by calling my playstyle 'douschassery'. 301, and posts adjacent to it are prime examples of somebody too emotional in a game. Its like you have ADHD in text form.

MAKE NO MISTAKE. THERE IS A PRETTY BIG DIFFERENCE BETWEEN ME AND YOU, PAL

the biting sarcasm in 301

is directed at an ARGUMENT

, not a person. as for the surrounding posts, i don't know what your issue is since Post 297 is me explaining to elusive what the nrg is and Post 304 is me clarifying my argument to thor and they're both pretty tame. the post you're citing about silverwolf was me being drunk and obnoxious one time and i've since apologized for it. silverwolf said she replaced out b/c she couldn't keep up which is understandable given how fast this game is going. same for the other newbies (kittenlicks comes to mind, to this day i don't know what choof's issue exactly was).

you, on the other hand,

attack the person

. Post 446, Post 447, and Post 459 are perfect examples of what i'm talking about. you are NOT attacking my argument, you're attacking me by labeling me as "not too brigh" and "lazy." THAT, buddy, is douchebaggery. and believe it or not, saying the word "fuck" isn't toxic to a game; calling people shitty and stupid is.

[Antihero]

Stupid phone posting makes me look illiterate lol.

i know those keys on the keypad are so close together. it's like trying to use a remote control with space gloves on.

[Antihero]

Meh phone posting plus nails makes it hard to be perfect. As long as its legible.

somehow i don't picture copper as having long fingernails

[Antihero]

@mod

Replace out please.

Sorry, but I can't keep up with this game.

i did not hound silver out of the game

[Antihero]

does anyone else besides pisskop want me to replace out, because i will without argument if anyone says something.

[Antihero]

oh fuck off

your argument is that i'm toxic so i'm either going to
1) prove you right and replace out and reduce the toxicity
2) prove you wrong and your argument is shit

either way is fine with me

[Antihero]

i'm being completely serious

if anyone thinks anything before this page was toxic i will completely understand and leave quietly

[Antihero]

NOW it is toxic. because you keep trying to guilt trip me about kittenlicks and silverwolf and choof replacing out. and now you're being passive-aggressive about it acting like you're not escalating things.

you're escalating things.

[Antihero]

ok then

i'll go stick a piece of candy corn up my ass, take a pinch of paxil, and MAYBE i'll be more tolerable to ppl i guess

[Antihero]

you're escalating things.

Wrong. You are maing a Radiant Cowbells show out of your arguement to try to push a

scumread

? Is this still about a scumread even?

not really and i didn't make it that way.

instead of just responding to the case OR putting together a legit counterattack OR even just explaining why you're pushing zzzx, you went straight for the ad hominem and then went nuclear w/ the replace-outs once i called you on it. you went straight to emotional button pushing instead of just making Post 569 to start off with.

this would all be slightly mitigated by you being scum but it's still a low blow.

so...

now, instead of us having a debate over what the hell went on w/ varsoon and the early wagon(s), we're now stuck in an emotionally raw quamire where now it's impossible to separate what's part of the character assassination from what's part of the case. if this was your plan the whole time, well... it worked. because my will to talk to you right now is at zero.

i will be the first to admit that i still probably would be obnoxiously cursing like a sailor if we WERE having just a debate about what happened but at least then i wouldn't be pissed off in the shitty way i am now and at least then i would still know that we had enough of a fundamental level of respect for each other not to resort to ...this.

believe it or not, as much as i like to blow off steam i don't actually ENJOY being legitimately pissed AT people. it's so draining. it just makes me exhausted thinking about it so i guess i have to stop.

[Antihero]

UNVOTE:

[Antihero]

hahahahahaha

impeccable timing as always dr. house

[Antihero]

seriously that made me chuckle

thanks

[Antihero]

I mean the badges mean those players are "heavyweights" to some degree, yeah?

no

i'm just a lucky dipshit who happened to be in the right game at the right time

[Antihero]

oka is scummy

[Antihero]

boo

[Antihero]

VOTE: varsoon

fuck it

[Antihero]

How do you rationalize his attack on you?

ehhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

attacking someone on your wagon is something both town and scum do and there may or may not be a rational logic train behind it. both town and scum do it.

omgus is a hell of a drug.

[Antihero]

by the way, i think copper's slot is more likely to be scum than not

[Antihero]

i was awaiting his catchup on bated breath

then he left me...
;_;

[Antihero]

also

varsoon himself has a decent chance of being scum, i like the wagon and i think the people on it are pretty good, and having a reasonably short day 1 seems like it would be the healthiest thing for this game

[Antihero]

it's not uncommon now for large day 1's to go to page 100

[Antihero]

Sorry guys, can't keep up and do this game justice, have fun!

@mod: replacing out, sorry!

@mod: Forget about this, I'll try to post when I have time but I'll have to figure out a different way to play this game cause my usual style is too time consuming.

my heart is whole again!

[Antihero]

What do you think of Flubber Otalia and Flames?

flubber is scummy as shit, as usual
otalia is probably newb and giving false positive. i'm at 70/30 on that.
flames i haven't read a single post of.

[Antihero]

he walks like a newb
quacks like a ... penguin

[Antihero]

looks like he was here summer 2013

well...

[Antihero]

droog

you should

like

vote varsoon

[Antihero]

Varsoon is the default lynch for the fakeclaim if we don't find a majority on someone else's case but I am reading it as a derp town move.

VOTE: Antihero
I agree with Varsoon, I think he is pushing on the players he thinks he can get away with.

i'm sure this has nothing to do w/ me calling you scum just now

[Antihero]

there's that meta again.

why do you keep going back there?

you haven't played a town game w/ me.

and you keep wanting to go back to jk9++ when it was really a pretty remarkable outlier. you know why mastin nommed me for a scummie for that game? b/c that's the closest i ever came to replicating my authentic town meta

[Antihero]

I don't need your town meta to decide if this looks like the same anti that was scum in the other game,

because extrapolating from a sample size of one will ALWAYS give you good results

[Antihero]

What made you think my slot was more likely scum than not?

the gorkington vote
the way you're engaging thor , at the expense of --> ignoring varsoon and the hated misadventures

[Antihero]

Attrition rate is up there in this game.

that's why i revoted varsoon. ._.

apparently now i'm scum for voting someone who has a pretty reasonable chance of flipping scum and following my townreads

[Antihero]

VOTE: pisskop

I'VE EXPRESSED THIS SUSPICION FOR A WHILE NOW PISSKOP THIS ISN'T OPPORTUNISTIC

[Antihero]

VOTE: copper

[Antihero]

VOTE: copper

? explain?

or you could come and vote up flames with us

'mkay

flames, claim

[Antihero]

oh cool, then i get to rob boonskiies of the hammer

VOTE: flames

EAT IT BOON

[Antihero]

Sakura Hana has been killed. She was a Mafia Roleblocker.

oh fucking a

[Antihero]

i suck at this game

[Antihero]

VOTE: thor

[Antihero]

rebuttal:
no u

[Antihero]

Day 2

Sakura Hana has been killed. She was a

Mafia Roleblocker

.

Formerfish has been killed. He was a

Mafia 2-shot Tracker

.

thats op

im guessing a 3p maf team?

not op and no

[Antihero]

actually
VOTE: seohyun

[Antihero]

Quit clowning around droog.
Seriously.
God.

I GET IT

IT'S BECAUSE HE'S A CLOWN

THAT'S HILARIOUS

HAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHHAHAHHAHHAHA

[Antihero]

pisskop makes it his life's mission to dog me in damned near every game we're in together, and I'm tired of it.

THE AVATAR PUNS
MY SIDES

[Antihero]

Post 320 was actually mostly a joke

[Antihero]

copper doesn't know shit and he's acting like he does. you can go down the list of large theme games and see that:

sabo: http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=56&t=58913
touhou: http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=56&t=59516
serum and steel: http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=56&t=58358
quickness: http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=56&t=57689
suburban warfare: http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=56&t=56684

i have a disjointed and high intensity way of writing

the reason i WAS so successful in the game copper brought up is that i kind of sort of replicated the high energy style which fooled mastin since she's used to seeing me be lurkaderp scum, which is what i am 99% of the time. jk9++ is the exception, not the rule.

[Antihero]

There are a handful of people who are going out of there way to be dickish and its possibly to justify their scum souls.

where did i go out of my way to be dickish?

[Antihero]

Thor, still got my eye on you. What have you done this game that is town side in some pro way?

^^^this is scum

[Antihero]

i've played with anti even more and trust me he feels town as hell.

The difference between my read and this is I give him the information I used to make up my mind so that he can decide himself if he agrees or disagrees with my conclusions.

marquis also has a MUCH larger sample size than you do

[Antihero]

oh yeah, i forgot corpse bride and winter

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=56&t=59668 corpse bride
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=56&t=60070 winter

you're using one scum game and exactly zero town games to extrapolate that me doing caps and pushing less than popular candidates is a scumtell

that's demonstrably not the case.

[Antihero]

Wow so I voted antihero and he OMGUSed me real quick.

no, you removing your vote from thor and then telling him to "prove himself town" (as if you can do that in a satisfactory way) is really fucking slimy

[Antihero]

That was never in question, the point of contention is he is giving a read without explaining it so it's useless.

well i'm explaining it right now and you still want to pretend like jk9++ is the only game that exists in the world

[Antihero]

Nope. It's not.

yes, it is.

you effectively shift the burden of proof over where it doesn't belong, with thor.

[Antihero]

Your opening interactions with SW and choof were what I meant by that statement. You, pisskop, gorkgintwhatever.

i didn't do shit to choof. i didn't even talk to him.

[Antihero]

Antihero,
You can't think I would be on the same scum team as sakura since she tried to turn everything I said into a scum thing because she thought I was a newbie and maybe an easy lynch? So why are you doing the same thing as her?

check out that touhou game i linked

there's a precedence

[Antihero]

My case on you is the previous post to the one you are trying to disprove and it's based on the way you pushed Varsoon yesterday, the way Sakura tried to push me off of my scum read of you and the mysterious confirmed town read she gave when some momentum was gathering behind your wagon.

i will also point you to the touhou game and dark age of the law

the only time SAKURA has seen me be scum are when i lurkaderp so whenever she's scum against me as town, she's obligated to town read me for posting.

it cuts both ways.

what was wrong with the way i pushed varsoon?

[Antihero]

Antihero,
Or explain in shortcut? Is that game referring to your playstyle or Sakura? Why should I care about another game when you are basically doing the same thing proven scum did and so the burden is on you to justify it?

the only reason i'm bringing up meta is because it's the linchpin of copper's case

yours is that i'm being an asshole, and... i don't have anything for that.

[Antihero]

don't flatter yourself. i jumped off after varsoon's admission, not your post that it was town fakeclaiming which was WAY before he 'fessed up.

getting back on the wagon had more to do with just going ahead and getting on with the game once people started dropping like flies. i just thought it would be the healthiest thing for the gamestate and i even said so.

[Antihero]

so the premise of the argument is that if i agree with you on anything, i should townread you

that's fucking bananas

[Antihero]

you seem to think i'm following you a lot more closely than i actually am

you're also building your argument from the starting point that i'm scum and going in circles

[Antihero]

when did you suspect pisskop ever?

[Antihero]

Ah yes, you also joined that joke lynch on flames.

oh like he wasn't getting lynched

[Antihero]

"make sure of your alignment"??????????

lol?

[Antihero]

now i'm going to hear a bunch of buzzwords about "interaction" aren't i?

[Antihero]

you seem to think i'm following you a lot more closely than i actually am

[Antihero]

RIGHT BECAUSE I AM THE SAME AS YOU

i make a list, check it twice, and vote those naughty motherfuckers

[Antihero]

oh you're pissed that i didn't do a chunky case?
sorry. that's not what you're going to get. i also didn't see much of a point in responding and spent that time doing other things besides this game. and it was time better spent.

hell, i feel like i'm wasting time right now. why am i even talking to you? you already know everything about my meta apparently and won't stop to even think about it for a second because you're pissed i "naked voted" (that needs to stop being a term, btw) you.

[Antihero]

you can't decide how to vote if you don't interact with someone or you quote some other interactions between 2 playerse you also found indicative as your reason

/shrug
i do it all the time

everyone is not the same in this

[Antihero]

go away

[Antihero]

i think elusive or seo are a lot more promising than otolia

[Antihero]

Ok, on page 30, and my reads on everyone are:
Albert/Notscience- Not enough posts at this point, leaning slightly town from Notscience's first couple posts though
Antihero- I can't read him. I'm thinking town tho
Boonskiis- No posts.
Choof/TheFuzzy- No read.
Copper- He reads town, his analysis and playstyle this game feels town to me
Elusive- SCUM. Nearly all of his posts up to that point feel scummy to me.
Flubber- No read, feels like lurking via fluff, although a couple content posts
Gorkington- A strong town read for this one
House- His playstyle confuses me, but I'm leaning scum
Kitten/Droog- Got a noob town read from Kitten's posts
Marquis- Not enough posts for me to be conclusive here
OkaPoka- Slight scum read
Pisskop- Slightly scummy, but not sure
Seohyun- So much lurk.
Thor665- I get a helpful town read on him
Varsoon- Ugh. I feel scum, but then his play after "Not actually hated, just wanted to survive. plz dont hurt me" reads town
ZZZX- Slight town read, from his few posts so far.

for now, VOTE: Elusive

why does zzzx get slight town read
doesn't even make any sense

i am good with this vote
VOTE: mnemonicdevice

seo counterwagon's a go

[Antihero]

i am good with this vote
VOTE: mnemonicdevice

Its true that I shouldnt be town read as I didnt do crap but... this vote sucks

FOS: Seohyun

Not Voting - Boonskiies, TheFuzzylogic99, Seohyun, Varsoon, ZZZX

c'mon now zzzx, give it some balls

[Antihero]

hey marquis

you think my vote sucks

i think yours does too

where can we meet in the middle?

[Antihero]

If you're unwilling to hop on the otalia wagon you guys could see where a fuzzy wagon goes

mmmm.... i don't know

i could do thor

[Antihero]

Well duh - you're voting for me.

i am not

but thanks for proving my point that you've dragged the discussion into such a quagmire of crap that important stuff is left by the wayside

[Antihero]

Because I'm betting this is an empty comment by scum.

well, let's see

we've got arguing with ika about crap
arguing with fuzzy about crap

crap
crap
crap

very little about me or otolia and mostly crap

[Antihero]

back today

don't prod me!

[Antihero]

thor has done an awesome job of sinking this game into apathy with walls more than fuzzy or ns could ever hope to with lurking

[Antihero]

no, i don't think it means you're scum

i'm noting that you past the point of diminishing returns a while ago.

[Antihero]

What do you think o fmy case on you - which you have not addressed yet?

if it's based on me+sakura, i would like to direct YOU to touhou as well.

[Antihero]

What do you think of the wagon on you and its growth and growing verbal support in the late day phase?

seeing as no one is actually doing anything, i think you're exaggerating this point.

[Antihero]

Why do/did you scumread me?

the. walls. are. crap.

you know what i had to do to find your "case" on me? go to your iso, control+f my name and it showed up about halfway through. you've dragged this game into "let's argue over semantics and bullshit" mode instead of looking at the big picture and that's a LOT more scum motivated than town.

[Antihero]

He does

argue this is like quilford's small town

straight face required whole way

go

[Antihero]

What will I find there that will change my mind?

if you're basing the argument off of sakura+i interactions, the interactions in that game were exactly the same and i was town and she was scum.
so, it undermines that argument.

[Antihero]

The wagon on you has gained all of the recent votes (2-3) and also has had two additional people suggest willingness to vote you within the past 24 hours.

yeah, let's not pretend this is anything other than motivated by apathy

[Antihero]

What big picture do you think I'm overlooking right now?

well a legit, readable case on the person you're voting is a start.

[Antihero]

Sakura's buddy interaction and skipping over you.

i'm not sure which universe that qualifies as a "case"

this one is not it

[Antihero]

[Antihero]

YOU LITERALLY JUST SAW MY SCUMGAME HOW IS THAT AN INTERESTING REACTION?

jeez... people

[Antihero]

also, how many heartless games have you been in flubber?

i feel like... most of them.

why are you playing dumb?

[Antihero]

@Marquis - I found Mini 1646 as an Anti scum game and...don't really see the difference.

Also, he assuredly hasn't done a sass wall like what you posted here in this game unless I'm really missing it - maybe the attack on Varsoon? With a bit of a squint?

Do you have any scum games that you feel showcase the difference in his play to show me? Maybe one where you accurately pegged him with this tell?

YOU DIDN'T FUCKING READ THAT GAME THEN

HE USED THAT TELL TO PEG ME

IN
THAT
VERY
GAME
YOU
REFERENCED

FUCK

[Antihero]

my response to the sakura case: it's demonstrably unreliable b/c there's precedence for (scum)sakura treating (town)me this way.

do. i. have. to. draw. everyone. a. picture?

[Antihero]

fuck this game

seirously

[Antihero]

VOTE: thor

[Antihero]

prodded should've declared my weekend v/la sorry

[Antihero]

fun fact, back to thinking oka poka is scum. is there a wagon he hasn't missed out on yet?

[Antihero]

i'm not that optimistic about this notty wagon

the composition is really meh and there's nothing that i've seen out of the ordinary for town ns so far.

[Antihero]

VOTE: thor
fuck yeah

[Antihero]

oh look, another red herring wagon on lynchbait

zzzzzzzzzz

[Antihero]

VOTE: flubbernugget

[Antihero]

^^see

this guy gets it

[Antihero]

Still to me everything points to a multiball ....

well, there's the fact that the scum faction that HAS flipped doesn't have a specific name

[Antihero]

I can't keep varsoon's claims in line

i can and i'm barely paying attention

what's up w/ you?

[Antihero]

as long as it's not hated mechanics. amirite?

see: the latest development on normal mechanics re: double voters

just in case you need another kick to the balls

[Antihero]

taking gork's results w/ grain of salt, bee tee dubs

LOOK AT ME LOOK AT ME I'M DISCREDITING THE COP

[Antihero]

Still to me everything points to a multiball ....

well, there's the fact that the scum faction that HAS flipped doesn't have a specific name

1) werewolves would negate the need for specific names. Of course that implies that (a) the cop is half useless and (b) none of the wolfies have flipped, nor been too scummy.

2) Not likely. SK/3P for life.

i'm saying i agree w/ you

not to mention the fact oka is a really sk-ish kill

if i had to guess mafia probably knows who the sk is

[Antihero]

if you are saying that Oka was killed by a sk than I would have to disagree with you. There is nothing pointing to that being true
Huh....why would the scum know who the SK is. Unless the have a role cop or something,

I was thinking werewolves as well though it could be as simple as it being red scum and x colored scum. I am also thinking that maybe the WW had night ability though this is just pure speculation. The point being is if there is two scum teams than we cant use connections to Sakura, FF and Not

What makes you conclude that?
Really, both concepts;

1. There is an SK
2. Mafia know who it is

I don't follow either.

'mkay, i'll walk ya'll through it

21 players
single faction scum team size is likely 5. depending on how much power the scum team has / how powerful the town is / how many immunities sk has, an sk would likely make a scumteam of 4 or 5.

for multifaction, the faction ratios would undoubtedly be 3:3:15. 4:4:13 would create hypothetical scenarios where town could lynch scum every day and still lose. i know all those reviewers and i know they wouldn't let bulge get away w/ something like that. by the end of day 2, a hypothetical wolf team would already know mafia was finished (by faction number symmetry). so, why kill oka? he wasn't a claimed pr and he wasn't a universal town read. i'm about 95% sure it was an attempt at a cross-kill. i called the kill "sk-ish" because it fits pretty closely with a vig kill profile: someone who's vaguely scummy and lurk-ish.

SO WITH THAT
i'm concluding the most likely scenario is a mafia of 4 or 5 (probably 4 if i had to guess) and an sk.

NOW
the reason i said mafia probably know the identity of the sk is a little more out there but my gut tells me it's true. assuming i'm right about oka being an sk kill, which i'm pretty sure i am, that means the mafia kill failed twice now. quite a few protective or pseudo-protective roles have already flipped or claimed. we've got the mafia roleblocker, the town watcher, and varsoon's claimed jk so far. (futhermore with the exception of varsoon's jk show, we know none of these are actually responsible for a missed kill. that'll be important later.) i'm assuming the sk has an immunity or combination thereof, they almost always do. bp is really common, as is some sort of investigation immunity (godfather or ninja or both). SO, assuming there are no more kill stopping roles out there (a moderately ok assumption) AND the sk has a bp modifier (a very ok assumption), i think the chances are better than average that one of the first two scum kills were foiled by the sk's bp.

it's a guess. but i don't think it's a bad one.

EXTRA THING
the reason i said i'm taking cop results w/ a grain of salt now is a possible investigation immunity for the sk and scum team balancing. i'm goin' out on a limb and saying last scumbag could be a godfather for a several reasons. one is simple balancing and how newb mods balance. newb mods tend to create swingy, tit-for-tat powder kegs of really powerful town prs and scum immunities. they'll put in town cops+watchers+trackers+docs and scum godfathers+ninjas+strongmen and all indications from flips/claims says this is what bulge did. another thing is that gork's been claimed for a couple days now and hasn't been touched, even w/ a dead scum roleblocker. this implies his role's not a threat.

alternatively, thor's scum of some flavor and varsoon stopped the kill. this is actually pretty plausible, given that varsoon was a claimed vig and i think he would probably be pretty high on the "to kill" list as well.

[Antihero]

well.........

/sigh

that seems like a little bit of a hasty conclusion to jump to.

there's the double-edged nature of the jailkeep that leaves some reasonable doubt.

[Antihero]

This is me saying that we still shouldn't lynch pisskop and copper today or tomorrow for that matter.
All things considered.

pisskop, yes
copper, ehhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

i'll agree not today but he's a name floating around my head for sk

[Antihero]

copper's finally figured out i'm a shit player

took you long enough

[Antihero]

Anti

Day 1
If your hypothy to be right than
varsoon kills sakura
sk kill Ff
player x blocks scums kill

this is possible but it seems very unlikely. Also if this scenerio means the scum had a very unlucky day for scum

day 2
Player x blocks scum
Sk kill oka

its very very unlikely scum is blocked two days in a row. It was possible that the Oka kill was a pr hunt or just a random kill.

while your idea is possible the chance that the all of the things needed to to make your scenerio happen seems miniscure .

What is the Thor wagon about.

what part of this is unlikely to you? specifically? which part?

[Antihero]

Why is the Oka kill SK hunting Mafia and not Mafia hunting SK?

could theoretically be mafia hunting sk, but i've already got the pet theory that scum tripped on the sk bp so that's my guess

[Antihero]

not so much a coin flip as having been around the block a few times

i don't know...

[Antihero]

soooo.... guys

what do i win post game if copper turns out to be scum (not-town, however you want to parse it?)

[Antihero]

hm.... md actually might be the sk

[Antihero]

yeah, fuck it i'll save everyone the time
VOTE: mnemonicdevice

[Antihero]

VOTE: boon

[Antihero]

i beat boon at his own game AND i get 3/4 hammers

this game is glorious

[Antihero]

i think the missing kill + varsoon's jk claim is pretty lynchworthy

VOTE: thor

[Antihero]

Rephrase:
Thor could not have committed the kill, as I JK'd him.

I found some great stuff.

This kinda clears THOR no?

nope

2 kills every night except night 2, where did the other one go?

[Antihero]

i'm about 97% sure we're just looking for an sk at this point

[Antihero]

lynch me don't care
VOTE: antihero

[Antihero]

nice job marquis. i'm impressed.