Micro 488: Forest Fire - Endgame

[Gyre and Gimble]

We are excusing a slot that does an action that I frequently perform and abuse as scum.

OK, I know that they're not me, and I'm not them, and my reasoning was wrong on quilford in twin trap, but I still want to point that out yeah.

It's not about signing -- that's only a minor factor. My point is that they are abusing hydra dissonance to hedge on Yuriko -- one scumreads, and one townreads, so they can swing whatever they want according to the situation.

~sonic

[Gentlemen Bastards]

Going to break this into a few smaller posts.

I do want Pie to explain the turnaround on the Soft read from Post 1251 and Post 1353 to the current vote/case in some more detail specifically what he read as town before to call him "100% town" and "his strongest read" to them being the person he think has fakeabe posts -- if I'm not being clear essentially I want to know why you considered him SUPER town earlier and how those specific posts are now not so town rather than why you think his posts make sense as scum. Also ftr I thought this was worse before than I do now because I thought the S_S push came about after Metal stated a scum-read but had that order wrong.

I did like Pies hesitation on the Quilford lynch and the "Please don't lynch in the next few hours" in Post 1305 matches what he did in TM and in the game I replaced into of his where he was town. I don't agree with Pies reasoning for town reading Quilford in Post 1349 at all, think Scum!Quilford has to be looking for ML's later in the game, with the amount of mutual town-reads the only way he can start doing this is scum-reading some strongly town read players earlier on to push later in the game with a "I was always suspicious of them but you refused to lynch them" type of angle but don't think Pie using this reasoning is a scum-tell at all. I also think the elaboration on his read on us in Post 1400 reads as genuine and I actually do like a lot of his reasoning behind his scum-read on Soft in Post 1418 and Post 1428, think the strongest points are A) Yurikos reads there make sense as distancing from a partner and B) Soft continuously calling it a policy lynch rather than responding to the reasons why I and others had her as scum and C) He's floated through today maintaining an "unsure on" stance on RBD/Me/Quilford which fits scum needing MLs. Probably need another big re-read through Soft because there's a

lot

that I remember going "Yep, he's ridiculously obvious town" when I read it initially. His reads list and reasoning in Post 1469 also very very very much matches where our or at least my head is at same goes for his Post 1514.

P much tldr; is that my scum-read on him is dead, if anything leaning towards his recent analysis and reads being town.

Also;

@ Pie

re; Post 1465 - I don't think Quilford replacing out as scum here is a dick move, it's likely he genuinely doesn't have the time for the game regardless of alignment since it'd mean he wouldn't have time to read and respond to accusations in the detail he'd need to do realistically or fake.

[Gentlemen Bastards]

Tammys vote on Nacho in Post 1269 was hilariously wrong when I read it initially and still is now, wanted to give her space to work out she's wrong about him herself, glad that it looks like she has. Her Post 1276 specifically the last paragraph reads very very town as does her Post 1330 -- I can actually understand her Nacho FoS' very much from it, it's wrong but makes plenty of sense for her to believe that; her reaction towards both me/Nacho moves her to the 100% town.

I really like Fferrys Post 1395 a lot of the explanation behind the lines of "We don't scum-read your slot, we just want to be super confident you're town via prodding you" is exactly where my head was at the time and the running through of the conversations with Nacho read very genuine.

Tldr; Both my strongest town-reads.

@ Tammy

re; Post 1470 - I'm not really sure what you want me to say? My issue wasn't with wanting to get a counter-claim but moreso that my initial worry was "It makes sense for scum to get a partner to out as a doc to fish a CC" and Empire did tell me that it'd likely be discussed pre-game and thus not needed in the thread so it wasn't a huge worry about mine, really I just wanted to confirm my read on you guys. Also since that game is over now there was a point during your whole "you don't know how to read me anymore hehehehahah" episode that made me think that didn't add up if you're town and I'm reading you correctly here but at the same point I don't think you'd damage your chances of winning here as scum via doing that and that it instead more likely fit with you having a gut-reaction of making fun of me for hesitating on reading you town there but from memory it's also something that pushed my reaction/troll vote.

[Gentlemen Bastards]

I actually read Muffins Post 1430 as town, won't elaborate on it just yet, want to talk with Empire and see if he picks what I'm reading town about it otherwise I'm worried he's just going to agree with me (It's probably the largest issue I've had with this game, I feel like my reads and thoughts are too influential on him).

I don't see Soft making Post 1273 as scum at all especially when he's gaining no attention as is. That said I don't like the "I already knew they were town via the vote placement" section of Post 1282 while voting RBD at all, I want that reasoning explained in detail since it seems contadictory.

I didn't like Quilfords self-vote in Post 1303, could see it as a gambit attempt to get town-read since I don't think "answering questions about reads" are anywhere near as difficult as he's making it out to be there. Read Quilfords replace out Post 1401 as townish initially but thinking about logically I'm not sure why it is? It's probably more null than anything. Metals "Quil was ObvTown I had a lesson on how to read him" in Post 1421 made both of us puke a little but I can't see him replacing in and pushing that stance if he didn't really buy it as either alignment. I don't like the "All catch up thoughts are withheld" in Post 1483 seems like a very un-like Metal type post to make but Hitos take on it in Post 1495 reads town though I disagree with lots of his case on RBD

Tldr; Still lean town on RBD but it's a weak read and know that Empires leaning the other way so want to talk to him about it, waiting for more Hito/Metal posts to get a better read on that slot but not sold on Quilfords replace out post being a town-tell anymore and I really need another reread of Soft.

@ Metal

- Run me through your Sangres and Pie town reads -- want to hear your reasoning and thought process behind both of them.

@ Soft -

I want your read on us elaborated on, I also want you to explain your reasoning behind having TammyBork as town in Post 1282 and how it doesn't contradict you suspecting and voting RBD.

[Gyre and Gimble]

can you ask me an easier question? You don't expect me to write another wall to add on to the happy pile that is in this game already, do you? Also, they are pretty obviously town so making me explain the obvious is just rather unnatural for me and I am really not sure if making me do this is even alignment indicative

What do you want to know,

specifically?

[Gyre and Gimble]

i.e not alignment indicative because arguments have already been put forth by others. If I'm scum, I can just regurgitate. And as town you are going to bore me when I can spend that hour catching up on 10 more pages

Hope that clears stuff up

[Gyre and Gimble]

I was serious about 1421 btw. He posted in caps and stuff . I would instantly townread him if I replaced into any other slot. I was following the game a little bit only but yeah

[Gentlemen Bastards]

It's not unneeded and certainly shouldn't be 'unnatural' to type, it'll give me more to get a read on you based on and if you're town it may help strengthen my read on Pie which is something you should want on both accounts. I highly doubt your town-read on him and Nacho is based

exactly

on what others have said and doubt that you give the same strength to each tell that others have. I don't need a wall or anything, just give me a flat out paragraph summary on the both of them as to what reads town to

you

and

why

, if you're as confident as you're claiming on both it should be easy to rattle off.

[Gyre and Gimble]

regfan you of all people should know that I shit up Mina's game, right?

why would you puke when I posted 1421? Really?

[Gyre and Gimble]

kk basic stuff

pie is evaluating stuff and all his posts look natural. When he is scum his posts will sound fake and forced and I will catch this immediately. He will typically post lesser walls as scum and more as town, because he is afraid that he might slip in that large wall of text. Everything he has done is super stream of consciousness and esp. his pushback on you (crudely I call omgus power) on the first 10 pages made him look more town than you did. You did come off looking town too through conviction and scumhunting but I was in the pieguy camp.


Nachoffery...... Ffery is the easier head to read, though I'm no slouch at nachoscum either. Nacho is better at scum IMO. He will dominate most of the hydra if they rolled scum. Ffery was towning it up and getting reads and opinions on people and interacting and all that in a manner that I don't think she's capable of as scum. She would just sit back and let town destroy themselves.


None of this is based on associative tells. I haven't got to the Yuriko flip yet

[Gentlemen Bastards]

regfan you of all people should know that I shit up Mina's game, right? why would you puke when I posted 1421? Really?

Because we were the team that we attempting to pull you out of your Quilford tunnel via the meta-information and we (well I, I can't speak for Empire here) don't think meta is a big indicator that Quilford is town, I find his play here very different to his TM play (He was far less forthcoming his with his reads and reasoning here and much less proactive and questioning people and getting reads to begin with), willing to concede that some of it may be due to him being busy in real life but you coming in with the stance of "I know how to read him now, he's obvtown" when that's not even close to our read on him is ugly but I don't think it's a scum-tell coming from you and it's not something I particular think is worth focusing or discussing to much.

[Gyre and Gimble]

Basically pie town is very strong minded and if he gives a shit about the game (clearly he does, who wouldn't?) he will be very aggressive and defend his townreads and pierce his scumreads.

He is slow in doing this only because he needs to be 100% confirmed and committed in his read first. Don't wanna make a wrong choice or wrong move now

wen pie is scum I can see the bulllshit lol. Esp in this player list it will stick out like a sore thumb

[Gyre and Gimble]

regfan you of all people should know that I shit up Mina's game, right? why would you puke when I posted 1421? Really?

Because we were the team that we attempting to pull you out of your Quilford tunnel via the meta-information and we (well I, I can't speak for Empire here) don't think meta is a big indicator that Quilford is town, I find his play here very different to his TM play (He was far less forthcoming his with his reads and reasoning here and much less proactive and questioning people and getting reads to begin with), willing to concede that some of it may be due to him being busy in real life but you coming in with the stance of "I know how to read him now, he's obvtown" when that's not even close to our read on him is ugly but I don't think it's a scum-tell coming from you and it's not something I particular think is worth focusing or discussing to much.

He indeed is busy in real life. I know this because I keep pestering him to hydra but he has <no time sorry maybe in a few months>

Tbh I would give more fucks about this game than team mafia... But that's only because I'm in a hydra with hito and I love all of you. Quil may have had different circumstances I.e team mafia was more important than this game. They were contending for the win after all

[Gyre and Gimble]

regfan you of all people should know that I shit up Mina's game, right? why would you puke when I posted 1421? Really?

Because we were the team that we attempting to pull you out of your Quilford tunnel via the meta-information and we (well I, I can't speak for Empire here) don't think meta is a big indicator that Quilford is town, I find his play here very different to his TM play (He was far less forthcoming his with his reads and reasoning here and much less proactive and questioning people and getting reads to begin with), willing to concede that some of it may be due to him being busy in real life but you coming in with the stance of "I know how to read him now, he's obvtown" when that's not even close to our read on him is ugly but I don't think it's a scum-tell coming from you and it's not something I particular think is worth focusing or discussing to much.

Sir I don't know if it was good or bad, but I replaced into quilford slot. I KNOW he's town

Enough about that. Read me. Or ask me stuff to get a read on me. I want to obvtown this slot up to get it out of the mislynch pool. Like I had to do in that game. Then hope my guess for the scum isn't wrong @_@

[Gentlemen Bastards]

Read me. Or ask me stuff to get a read on me. I want to obvtown this slot up to get it out of the mislynch pool. Like I had to do in that game. Then hope my guess for the scum isn't wrong @_@

There's not much point in me asking you any further questions (Only wanted your two claimed stances explained) if you've yet to read through the rest of the game, at this point think it's much better if you get through the rest of the game, share your reads and thoughts and then we can talk. If you want specific things to look at

while

reading through I'd like to you to focus on what you make of S_S since he's someone I'll be re-reading tomorrow morning too, also wouldn't mind your read on our hydra in more depth and your take on us v pie after reading the entire game.

[Gyre and Gimble]

back at the computer

catching up begins now

[Gyre and Gimble]

sorry guys i just got distracted 15 minutes because of youtube related videos



this looks like a cool game


i'll focuss now

[Gyre and Gimble]

/30

that took long, par for the course

[Gyre and Gimble]

yeah, 1 hour per 10 pages is how this looks like

to bed i go, catch up 10 more tomorrow

[sangres]

will look at it in detail later but hydra dissonance to protect a partner/push mislynches is a very good scum tactic and I do it often

Our hydra has arguably been as dissonant as Rancid, if not more so. We were split on our Yuriko read, among other disconnects. What was it about Rancid's play that caused their dissonance to stand out to you when ours apparently didn't register?

Nachoffery...... Ffery is the easier head to read, though I'm no slouch at nachoscum either. Nacho is better at scum IMO. He will dominate most of the hydra if they rolled scum. Ffery was towning it up and getting reads and opinions on people and interacting and all that in a manner that I don't think she's capable of as scum. She would just sit back and let town destroy themselves.

And this is not how we operate as a scum-hydra.

[Gentlemen Bastards]

Ok so I'm bored and don't feel like waiting for Nati to answer.

The reason I asked her that question is because I've been in enough town hydras and have played with enough hydras in general to know one major thing: when you're in a hydra as town, it is impossible for the two players to 100% agree on everything (yes, even in this hydra I'm in right now). Usually, in a town hydra, there is some sort of effort that the two players make to try and reach a consensus or to otherwise hash out their disagreements behind the scenes. Somehow, probably due to a drive towards complete transparency, that effort makes it into the thread. It can take on many forms, but usually, it's pretty easy to tell when that is going on (a good example of this is when Tammy and I were hydra'ing in Black Flag Nightless and we disagreed on JesseSheffield's alignment and she just kinda laid out our disagreement in the thread and our effort to try and resolve it).

Scum hydras, I think, implicitly know that they're supposed to not 100% agree on everything and they try to make it known that the two heads disagree on stuff. However, there's no behind-the-scenes effort, no drive to resolve the conflict. The reads and the dissonance exist but it's bare bones and it just feels like it's there just to be there.

This is one of my biggest concerns with the Drake hydra right now. They seem to be in total conflict on my slot for most of the game and I don't get the impression that any sort of effort has been made to try and hash it out. I don't know if this is because of IRL stuff or what but I mean, I'm hydra'ing with a guy who literally has almost the opposite time zone that I do and I'm fairly busy and we

still

find some sort of way to try and discuss the game and reach consensus.

[pieguyn]

I do want Pie to explain the turnaround on the Soft read from Post 1251 and Post 1353 to the current vote/case in some more detail specifically what he read as town before to call him "100% town" and "his strongest read" to them being the person he think has fakeabe posts -- if I'm not being clear essentially I want to know why you considered him SUPER town earlier and how those specific posts are now not so town rather than why you think his posts make sense as scum. Also ftr I thought this was worse before than I do now because I thought the S_S push came about after Metal stated a scum-read but had that order wrong.

VOTE: Gentlemen Bastards

this vote happened in response to your 1241, which was exactly when I started thinking there was scum motivation in your push on me. that post in particular pinged bc of how you were calling bork awful _again_, which I didn't like for reasons I've stated already. I thought he was town for it bc I thought he was seeing the exact same thing I was seeing about you in the exact same time - that he would pick up on something like that before I said as much made me feel really good about it. then I thought about it more and 1. stopped worrying about your slot, 2. started thinking that even if this _was_ a scum tell I made a much bigger deal over S-S seeing it than it actually is.

S-S was originally one of my stronger reads bc I had thought he had a lot more unfakeable stuff than he actually did. that's really all there was to it. then I looked at his posts again in-depth and realized I was mistaken.

@ Pie

re; Post 1465 - I don't think Quilford replacing out as scum here is a dick move, it's likely he genuinely doesn't have the time for the game regardless of alignment since it'd mean he wouldn't have time to read and respond to accusations in the detail he'd need to do realistically or fake.

I don't really think scum-Quil would really give that much of a shit about this game in this position. if it was up to me, I would think it's basically impossible to win the game anyway and I wouldn't want to make someone else replace into that situation as scum.

[pieguyn]

I don't see Soft making Post 1273 as scum at all especially when he's gaining no attention as is.

why do you think he wouldn't have made it as scum?

why do you think making that kind of post would _actually_ serve to draw attention onto himself? I don't get that impression at all; it looks like an entirely neutral statement to me.

[Soft-spoken]

haha im being voted... and prodded .

guess its time to decide if im site-flaking or not. ok im back

[Gold Saucer]

Heh regfan I do imagine if I were scum here and you were reading me wrong I'd not taunt you about it at westeros. I was amused at westeros and was thinking of you scum reading me in signs and void.