LoL eSports Discussion

[hitogoroshi]

Did they actually say who was the one who was talking during the pause? I was in a clan with Mash for a couple of years and it seems like the kind of thing he'd do.

[hitogoroshi]

Speaking as a dude who first picks vlad I'm happy about the vlad popularity except that rushing wota on vlad is garbage and everyone is gonna learn bad habits now

[hitogoroshi]

vlad already has an easy time staying at full hp with whatever items he gets by the time he has wota money. spell vamp is pretty stupid when you dying is almost certainly from all-in burst, probably with ignite/morello/etc.

I mean if you want to shove lane and roam sure get the hextech so you can use tides on CD. but guise or rod are both gonna do a lot more for you than the wota upgrade, and that's what you give up to do hextech -> wota. guise is insane on vladimir because both stats feed back with the passive and magipen is absolutely the stat you need to start bullying lane. And zhonya's/cap are both really big milestones for vlad, which make rod good, especially since he gets 112 hp for it so you can't really even punish him for rushing it. it's even sillier when you shouldn't even be getting hextech in your lane. if you're zoning out an enemy top, opening guise+sorc is gonna be stupidly more effective than wota. what the heck is the wota for in a freeze situation? you're not using tides much because you don't want to shove the lane, so...it takes one transfusion instead of two to heal up? okay whatever. I'm still gonna be full health when every trade starts when I've got max level transfusion. what I need is HP to survive the all-in and AP/magipen to kill them first; spell vamp and cdr aren't that useful for that situation.

the thing about magipen is that vlad is really good 2v1 duelist so if you rush your damage enough you can actually freeze without giving two shits about their jungle, because if REWE can kill the weaker enemy in a 2v1, you actually kill them completely for free while you drop REQWEQ on the healthier one (with ignite to taste). And if you slowroll tides to 4 stacks and have a guise, REWE does a pretty solid amount of damage!

[hitogoroshi]

I mean he's a lategame champ if you don't build any damage in early lane but he's a super strong lane bully and it's pretty foolish to waste that in my view!

If you're getting poked a shit ton and it's making you go back, sure, get hextech. but completing the wota early is...like okay, now you can sit in lane. Vladimir could ALREADY do that, because he is Vladimir. So why not bully out your lane opponent, or get a fast Zhonya's, or get early boots 2 so you can roam?

If you're getting forced out of lane with just the regular hextech the problem is probably with how you're playing Vlad and not the itemization. You can get bursted as vlad but it's really bizarre if you get poked.

I think the problem is that people will imitate what they see, and they never try anything besides rushing WOTA. So they think "Okay, so I pick Vladimir, build WOTA, and then I'm nearly impossible to force out of lane. Neat! I get it!" and never move on from there. When in fact the real story is "Okay, so I pick Vladimir, build

literally any AP at all

, and then I'm nearly impossible to force out of lane. Neat!" Like they're taking the strength of Vlad's kit and attributing it to his itemization, and thus build way too conservatively.

[hitogoroshi]

yeah that's a good point. what I'm really mad about all of these pro players rushing wota. It's a fine new player build! the hardest parts of vlad to master are playing around pools long cd and managing tides stack and wota helps with both of those for sure.

it's fair to say I should clarify that when I say rushing wota is garbage, it's not garbage in the sense that it inevitably leads to bad results, just that it's a huge waste of vlad's potential.

[hitogoroshi]

it depends what stomping is flavored like. If you want to stomp by crushing your lane opponent, do guise + sorc as your opener. If you want to stomp by power shoving and roaming, do hextech + lucidity or rod + lucidity depending on granularity.

And in general, if you can afford a rod, you should usually get it. That 112 hp really closes the vulnerability window of getting a rod but not finishing it.

I like the idea of Luden's vlad in theory but it just can't beat what Zhonya's and Hat do for him. Someday I'll get really fed and will be able to try zhonya/cap/luden/void/boots/SV but I can't imagine any other time you'd want it.

[hitogoroshi]

GAME FIVE

TREES DON'T CARE

[hitogoroshi]

so many questionable vlad builds this split

sorc + guise is so much better than lucidity + wota.

[hitogoroshi]

kindlegem items, especially visage.

and I question how valuable cdr is for vlad. I mean yeah he's a no mana champ so cdr is strong for sustaining in lane, but vlad doesn't need help with that and pen hugely helps his lane anyway. it's not that useful in teamfights because you need LEVELS in pool before pooling twice in a fight is a reasonable possibility. unless I missed it quas never got a double pool off.

I think that it's really easy to focus on "oh gosh, with cdr and spell vamp I live forever in lane" and then have game after game of these shitty non-impactful vlads because you have no pen to synergize with 4-stack tides. vamp and cdr don't help in teamfights when they're just going to burst you down anyway!

[hitogoroshi]

the problem is more of a holistic problem with playing vlad than the actual calculation.

• A huge benefit to vlad is rolling up to 4-stack tides. The base damage will be doubled but your bonus damage won't. So magic penetration scales with empowered stacks but AP doesn't.
  
• Pool cooldown is so huge that until the late game when you're level 18, you're not getting two pools in a fight. So CDR doesn't really matter for that at all.
  
• Hemoplague synergizes with burst more than CDR, because it's of a fixed length. Vladimir's big combo is REQWEQ - you'll just barely pull it off within the hemo window with no CDR (having a bit on runes helps, because it's tricky if still possible with literally 0 CDR). Your burst will get that 12% so making the burst big helps.
  
• Kind of related to that last one, but if REWE can kill your lanemate or a jungler you can push with impunity because 2v1's don't really matter - REQWEQ the healthier enemy and REWE kills the other one for free.
  
• Building flat HP on Vlad has some benefits beyond the passive trigger. It increases pool damage, it increases your morellos treshold, and it gives you time to wait out ignites before using Q (this last one is niche I admit)
  
• I mean, just watch all these Vlad games - whether or not the Vlads WANT to focus on all-in, that's sure as shit what's killing them! No matter what you build as Vlad, you're going to be good at lane sustain and your opponents aren't gonna let you sit and durdle. They're going to FORCE duels, so it's your job to WIN them.

[hitogoroshi]

I BELIEVE IN MAGIC.

I BELIEVE IN LOVE.

[hitogoroshi]

lissandra would have been an infinitely better pick than lucian for C9 game 2. I don't see how they win this one. They can't do teamfights, but now they also can't get picks??

[hitogoroshi]

sej + ken ults

of course the statement "they can't do teamfights" is contingent on wildturtle landing at least one auto attack on literally anyone in a fight which I guess isn't a guarantee??

[hitogoroshi]

and with these comps, he's gonna be right about c9 winning game four!

[hitogoroshi]

okay I know I'm a broken record at this point but hey let's look at this series and notice what happens when you do wota vlad and when you don't

[hitogoroshi]

43 minutes in, two un-upgraded red trinkets for Roccat. Gee, I wonder how Unicorns got that vision.

[hitogoroshi]

uol vs origen in a couple of hours

do you believe in magic?

do

you

believe

in

love

[hitogoroshi]

HYLLISANGS GOT THE THRESH BOYS

[hitogoroshi]

;_;

I guess you can't do double tear against origen

[hitogoroshi]

my unicorn love remains strong though; I think they just got baited by the in-general good picks and missed the fact that they were picking double tear

Hyllisangs thresh was still pretty darn rad; he was just starting fights unicorns couldn't actually do because none of 'em did any damage

[hitogoroshi]

what no one can argue is that sheepy is the handsomest coach

[hitogoroshi]

More proof for the nonbelievers that Hylissang is UoL's true carry

[hitogoroshi]

Ya, I play AP Ez and that's exactly right. AP Ez has always been sleeper strong (well wasn't "sleeper" back when flux healed, lol) kept in check by Ez's abysmal waveclear.

I actually tried building smite on mid Ez BEFORE Runeglaive, just to deal with it. It was kind of strong even without Runeglaive. But ultimately Lichbane + mana regen + strong AP just took too far to get to.

Runeglaive kills FOUR birds with one stone-

• Turns Mystic Shot into pure magic damage instead of hybrid, making pen more efficient
  
• Because it comes online so much earlier, lets you max Q instead of W (this is VERY important)
  
• Obviously, gives you massively more waveclear, since you have both Rangers AND the AoE effect
  
• It not only means you don't need to buy Lichbane, but you don't really need to buy mana regen, either, since it regens mana + you can take blues solo much easier.

It's not that he does too much damage at full build - actually he does a little less - it's that his build path got short circuited by roughly

five thousand gold

.

[hitogoroshi]

Yeah. I hope it'll be TSM (because they more or less have to make it on points) but then Gravity and Impulse. That's about the best showing NA can give I think.

[hitogoroshi]

Although probably if Impulse hits the worlds stage the non-NA will be like "huh maybe we could try banning Sivir"

[hitogoroshi]

I think TIP could beat TL now. Rush beats the pants off of IWD and XWX is really stepping up and owning his large champion pool - I think Fenix has had some better individual performances but XWX is really versatile. Quas and Impact are pretty equal. TL does have the better botlane, but how much does that get you when shoving just puts you at the mercy of Rush?

I guess if TL bans out Sivir + two carry junglers it might be hard for TIP. It is kind of hard to get a totally accurate feel of them when everyone does awful against them in pick/ban.

[hitogoroshi]

Making the assumption that each match has a 50/50 shot of being won by either side,

NA LCS 2015

[hitogoroshi]

yeah I did remember, my logic was that they did well enough with gate and no time to prep with gate that when they got time to scrim with him they'd be even stronger. oh well all I really care about is UoL placing at least 3rd

[hitogoroshi]

summer split

uol with vardags on sivir or corki: 7-3

uol with vardags on graves, jinx, lucian, urgot, kalista: 2-6

unicorns aren't actually "inconsistent" vardags just has a shite champion pool

uol with sivir/corki > OG > H2K > uol without sivir/corki

[hitogoroshi]

yeah I should have been clear I'm more talking about their losses than their wins w/r/t the historical split.

What I'm saying is that when unicorns lose against a team they "shouldn't have lost to", it's usually a pretty significant factor that vardags isn't on corki or sivir. It's not that OG/h2k are part of the "teams they shouldn't lose to" It's that NOT having corki/sivir is a big part of what gives them these embarrassing losses against e.g SK.

H0R0's addition to the team, PoE being smarter with his tear/athenes builds, hyli's improved roaming, etc. are the reasons that I think UoL can beat Og/H2K, PROVIDED they're not weighed down with vardags being off-adc, which has been a key factor in all of their "big losses". If that makes sense.

[hitogoroshi]

yeah scope has it I think. LGD, SKT, EDG probably the three strongest teams (I don't read much into EDGs recent mini-slump), with QG and KT right behind.

I think the best the west can hope for is Fnatic getting a forgiving enough placement to hit semis.

Still, the fact that Korea vs. Korea, China vs. China, or Korea vs. China are all plausible finals is still pretty cool!

[hitogoroshi]

but zor, who could have predicted that the na first seed team wouldn't be against other first seed teams and the other two na teams would be

[hitogoroshi]

we should do the official pick 'em on the riot site

that being said

KOO/PaiN
IG/AHQ
SKT/EDG
LGD/KT

[hitogoroshi]

[hitogoroshi]

Meanwhile, Hito's probably shaking his head since Soaz is playing Vlad but went WotA first.

One the one hand, Soaz's first fight that wasn't vlad/malph light petting was a perfect example of a fight where WOTA/lucidity had 0 impact and guise sorc would have had a lot. Imp doesn't live through that! Which maybe even lets peke live.

But actually rushing WotA isn't so bad when your opponent does as badly as Acorn did here. The max CDR build is good for shoving waves uncontested. Usually Sorc/Guise is still better even to shove, because it makes it easier to actually force your opponent out so you can get quality time with the wave to heal up - in any remotely contested lane, having damage will often give you more healing than spellvamp will, because it lets you q on cooldown more safely. But if you can force your opponent out even when you do no damage, then going ham on CDR will let you push faster.

[hitogoroshi]

I don't really think those are contradictory statements to be honest.

The gap was so large before that it's already pretty safe to say it's the smallest it's ever been - but it could still be quite significant. I agree with not reading too much in to this. LGD's loss is ridiculously on TBQs shoulders. As a Unicorns fan, I'm keenly aware that a team can look really fucking dominant executing poke well and have nothing to back it up. Koo is still a strong contender to beat CLG - this ain't anime and transitive property does not necessarily apply.

This could very well just be a blip due to prep problems and the east will end up beating the west. In fact it's where I'd put my money. That doesn't stop this from already being the most impressive showing of EU/NA to date, two days in.

[hitogoroshi]

[hitogoroshi]

I feel bad for Pain, they just needed to actually push that Baron they opened wide up and they could have gotten out of groups. That would have been incredible

[hitogoroshi]

Move is a huge pickup for UOL, I'm super excited.

Never heard of the other two people they picked up, but they seem promising enough?

[hitogoroshi]

Just checking: no one is planning on going to Worlds group stages are they/need tickets?

I'm going on Thursday/Friday to the quarterfinals in Chicago. Are you going to be there?

[hitogoroshi]

God, Lyon is just beautiful to watch in IWCQ.

If Unicorns don't make Worlds I'm going as a Lyon fan for sure.

[hitogoroshi]

I think Spylce in general are a bit better than UOL but I think UOL specifically has a good match in to them, especially in standard lanes.

[hitogoroshi]

In bad news, Lyon gaming forgot how to play with a lead and isnt going to worlds. FeelsBadMan.

I loved watching them play mechanically and was really rooting for them, but it turns out they don't actually know how to play League of Legends, so I guess just as well that they didn't make it to Worlds. Next year!

[hitogoroshi]

I know what you mean PEG. In less than a 24 hour span I learn that Lyon doesn't know how to play lanes and UOL get heartbreakingly close before Move throws his goddamn brains out.

I'm even going to Quarterfinals but all of my favorite teams aren't makin it. I guess I'm a...flash wolves fan??

[hitogoroshi]

A: ROX/G2
B: SKT/FW
C: EDG/H2K
D: SSG/TSM

I'm going with the shocking and daring strategy of assuming the korean players are the best and lms 1st seed being better than NA 3rd seed

I don't know if there's a really stinky FW game I haven't seen that's got everyone valuing C9 over them, but historically LMS 1st seed has been a good deal better than NA 1st seed, much less NA 3rd?

[hitogoroshi]

Demaglio is perfect.

[hitogoroshi]

Updated my picks to have ahq beating h2k. I just see a team with Forgiven on it as being very brittle over the grind of Worlds

[hitogoroshi]

Actually, as far as b05's go, I think H2K has a history of doing poorly in bo5 relative to their bo1/bo2 performance and albus has plenty of b05 experience as well. I wouldn't count that as a point in h2k's favor.

H2K certainly do have better lanes and better coaching, but I think stylistically albus have a good match into H2K. I think that H2K wants to snowball and then sort of expects the other team to respect their snowball, if you see what I mean. I think that Albus's penchant to go for objectives they "shouldn't" is something that can potentially do really well against H2K.

At any rate, H2K is easily the weakest first seed out of groups so I'm happy that albus gets this chance.

[hitogoroshi]

As a UoL fan whose team shit the bed again I am a Lyon, Gambit, and Marines fan for this tournament. So this is a cool start for me!

[hitogoroshi]

GAM 3-0 week 2 ez

[hitogoroshi]

aw dang I forgot about pickems so didn't do them for knockout stage. oh well I thought LZ was gonna win so my pickems would have sucked anyway