Mini 1709: Radjarok: Game over!

[Dessew]

Spoiler: Hopkirk

Something else I wanted to look at is Dessew.

Let's do this one by one, but skipping the fluff.

79= Laughs at a style of writing, doesn’t answer question about current impressions claiming it’s too soon to tell, answers question about setup (in a closed game so meaningless)

Apparently we have a set of players who registered in the last few months & unfortunately not all of them managed to learn how setups work on this site, how to use BBCode & how to communicate with the mod. 79, 138 & 160 were thus needed.

138= Defends Gob, Talks about quote tags.

This is simply not true. Saying that a player has much fewer reads than what he claims is definitely not defending him.

161= Votes and says case later. Votes someone he hasn’t mentioned yet.

I mean I hadn't mentioned anyone before that. What did you expect? Don't even answer, it's a rhetoric question. On the sidenote, though, I understand your being shy about whose style made me laughed, but you can & should say out loud the name of the player I'm voting: stoz. Just a heads-up.

182= Explains vote is because of fence sitting/not saying much.

That's an entire case. In the example I gave, he spends three rows explaining nothing in a non-obvious way.

190= Refuses to join main conversation, Defends Gob, Defends Vijay.

The main conversation, save partly for the VG stuff, is pretty underwhelming. The case on gob is that he is a weak player. I mean, some people accuse him of that,& that somehow leads to a scumread in some magical way. In the meantime, he's towning. The case on vijay, as fas as I can remember, is associative. But we have no flips, let alone the one flip you'd need for this case to work. What else was there? Some random wagon & RQS nonsense, it's great that they made the game start, but it could work pretty well without me actively participating.

I tried to summarise what he’s done without bias. Conclusions on that follow:

I haven't made particularly long posts, so my iso would've done it, right?

Refuses to answers 2 requests to comment on things going on in thread/ actively avoids joining conversations on main things going on.

If there are any questions I haven't answered & they're relevant, you can quote them.

One serious vote with the reason “he’s fence sitting” despite the fact the same applies to Dessew much more (see above point for example).

You clearly haven't read my case. It's fabulous, & it isn't long, so you really should.

Other than the vote, no content. Vote is weak, no scumhunting, no questions.

Again, my case is magnificent.

Mentioning things like setup/quote tags/replacement requests instead of content is active lurking. No real contribution to the game. Mafia generally like to find things to talk about that look like they’re actually saying something when they aren’t.

The only problem with this, is that whenever I post fluff, it's clear, I'm posting fluff. That's the point of the stoz wagon, that he's doing the opposite, he's fluffing, but it's made to look like content.

Defends my scum reads means possible associations (minor/not really too relevant point).

Again, for associative, you need flips.

Yay, people assuming that not liking two posts means scumreading.

Don't see why I should, as I'm pretty sure I already did.

A humble suggestion: make one post. You know very well what the problem is with your posts, so you should be able to react to them without anyone asking. If you react to everything in one post, we won't feel that you're avoiding the questions, & you won't feel that the same questions are asked over & over again.

Spoiler: stoz

stoz has virtually done nothing, which is fine by itself. The suspicious part is his tone. Example:

At first I thought Trivium's question was quite good, because it would force scum to declare if they are going to be active or lurk when they have less information on the game.

Upon thinking about it some more I realised that if Trivium was scum it could be a great tool to use to help forward a lynch on someone town who gets busy in real life.

Overall I'm going to have to treat it as null.

A meticulous piece of analysis of nothing with no real conclusion at the end. The time & energy he seems to devote to fence-sit is truly remarkable. The rest of his iso is better in the sense that he's more active, but he has just moved away from the total nihil, in the direction of one of the already established & discussed to death.

I agree this wasn't my best post, but I haven't been fence sitting, I've been sharing my observations and opinions when able.

Example? I haven't seen you put anything new into the game. The only thing you mentioned the first time was a past experience of yours. You used it not to join a dead-on-arrival wagon.

I'm actually quite concerned with gob and Dessew defending each other. In #184 gob described Dessew as "my top town" when Dessew's contributions at that time were:

#79: "I wouldn't jump to conclusions regarding the alignments of [Haschel and Hopkirk]." and clarifies a mistake gob made.
#138: "First of all, let's not get carried away [with gobs list]"
#161: "Why [is VeeGee voting] Gob? Why not vijay?"
#182: "The time & energy [stoz] seems to devote to fence-sit is truly remarkable"

Almost everything has been about putting gob in a positive light.

Where? I called him town in 190, is that it?

If I had been voting or expressing suspicion of gob I really would believe Dessew was the gob defence force, so Dessew's vote on me is the only part that doesn't stack up. Perhaps Dessew is looking to start a counter-wagon that won't look like OMGUS?

Please, let's not adopt the habit of taking rhetoric questions. Do you think that or not?

@Dessew, gob: what are your reads on each other? Do you still think the other is town what with all the suspicion flying in your general direction?

Of course, I'm townreading him. (I'm not sure if I've stated this before.) Nothing's been posted that could've changed my opinion.

stoz has virtually done nothing, which is fine by itself. The suspicious part is his tone. Example:

Nope, doing nothing is not fine by itself.

Thank you for your input on the case, vijay, let me fluff a bit, because apparently there hasn't been anough fluff in this game. You've done a great job so far. By scumhunting, you have managed to find VG, who might actually be scum. You've also excelled at hunting the passive, the weak, the stupid & the obnoxious & discussing theory. I'd like to remind you that these activities (although they certainly can be fun) do'nt help us achieving our objective, however, they can deflect town from real scumhunting, so, please, refrain from exercising them, thanks.

PEDIT: ninja'd by fitz

[Dessew]

So,

gob, I'll ask you again: Which specific posts by vijay do you feel were half-assed, and why do they strike you that way?

Here, I've found it. gob's reaction to this question doesn't match up with scum-gob. Haschel's original question was worded in such a way, that it could (& did) easily have gob talk about other player's in general instead of vijay. (Namely, he asked why were vijay's posts half-assed in contrast to other player's posts, or something like that.) gob didn't even mention this. He isn't self-aware enough to know what questions he was asked. I mean, the "readlist" would've been unnecessarily flashy if he was scum & whatnot. The reason why I'm singling this one out, though, is that you cannot seriously think he would've faked it. So stop this thing of yours, & join the stoz wagon.

[Hopkirk]

Not really sure how to quote 225 in full without messing tags up (or spending a long time) so quoting bit by bit.

Apparently we have a set of players who registered in the last few months & unfortunately not all of them managed to learn how setups work on this site, how to use BBCode & how to communicate with the mod. 79, 138 & 160 were thus needed.

Doesn’t change the fact that you have pretty much no other content.

That's an entire case. In the example I gave, he spends three rows explaining nothing in a non-obvious way.

Quoting for later part of this post.

You clearly haven't read my case. It's fabulous, & it isn't long, so you really should.

Also quoting for later (next thing)

If there are any questions I haven't answered & they're relevant, you can quote them.

Irrelevant as the questions were time specific. This is avoiding what I’m saying. You said you didn’t want to comment on things going on: That is sitting on the fence.

The only problem with this, is that whenever I post fluff, it's clear, I'm posting fluff. That's the point of the stoz wagon, that he's doing the opposite, he's fluffing, but it's made to look like content.

Reading your posts initially, it looked like you were actually saying something, so I see the same from you.
Could you give reasons for your gob townread?

[Hopkirk]

I really should have previewed that one. Some of my comments are in the big quote box.
@Hasschel, can you now explain the reasoning you wanted to keep secret from earlier?
@Klingon: We had 10 (now 9) days left in the day. I don't see any problem with putting pressure on other potential scum. Also applies to accountant saying about why split the vote. IF we're wrong D1 we have leads d2, if we're right d1, we have ideas for associations d2.

[Hopkirk]

Gob in 194 (and from then on) ignores my criticisms. Clearly he’s not going to respond without my vote on him. Lets see if i can get the qs answered now.
UNVOTE: Dessew
VOTE: Gob

My reason is that i dont vote. Just how i go bro.

Then how do you expect to catch scum?

OMGUS so hard

Leaving aside the fact that it wasn't an omgus, accountant said she had a scumread on you first...

[Dessew]

Brilliant posting Hopkirk, clearly, there's no reason to devote time to teaching BBCode.

Apparently we have a set of players who registered in the last few months & unfortunately not all of them managed to learn how setups work on this site, how to use BBCode & how to communicate with the mod. 79, 138 & 160 were thus needed.

Doesn’t change the fact that you have pretty much no other content.

I have a case you refuse to comment on.

If there are any questions I haven't answered & they're relevant, you can quote them.

Irrelevant as the questions were time specific. This is avoiding what I’m saying. You said you didn’t want to comment on things going on: That is sitting on the fence.

Then your bitching about those questions is irrelevant, too, I presume. I didn't comment because there wasn't anything to comment on.

The only problem with this, is that whenever I post fluff, it's clear, I'm posting fluff. That's the point of the stoz wagon, that he's doing the opposite, he's fluffing, but it's made to look like content.

Reading your posts initially, it looked like you were actually saying something, so I see the same from you.

I think we can be all frateful then, that there are people wildly different from you.

Could you give reasons for your gob townread?

Here & here.

[Dessew]

Now, the above post is a bit anfrier than it should be, I usually take a few minutes to calm down when I get exasperated by someone's sheer stupidity, but this time I failed to do so because I was/am in a hurry to get into my bed. Anyway, sorry.

[stoz]

stoz has virtually done nothing, which is fine by itself. The suspicious part is his tone. Example:

Nope, doing nothing is not fine by itself.

Ok I don't know what you've done here Dessew, but I wanted to point out to everyone that you've mangled the quote and I did not say "Nope, doing nothing is not fine by itself." and certainly not in post 93. It's also makes it funnier when you tell Hopkirk "clearly, there's no reason to devote time to teaching BBCode."

I'm about to head to work and I will address the rest of your post later in the day, just wanted to clear this one up for everyone else reading before the thread moved too far ahead.

[Klingoncelt]

I agree that we need to lynch VeeGee, but we definitely should not hammer early. To be clear, I'm autolynching anybody that quickhammers VeeGee, even if VG turns out to be scum.

That's playing against Town's win condition. It's also narcissistic.

I'm precommiting to this in order to deter people from quickhammering in the first place. Note that mafia also has reason to quickhammer other mafia at L-1. It makes them look good and also allows them to cut short the day.

Noob.

[gob]

Im not gonna lie, some of this is my fault but holy shit you guys are so cross-minded, it was amusing and now its just annoying.

I have stated many times why i havent placed a vote outside of RVS, its not my style and i accidentally hammered d1 in my newbie game.
But here, since you guys think this is some GRAND tell of my guiltiness. BTW HopKrirk, im not ignoring your criticisms in the slightest, they are just being asked by others as well, so when i answer them i dont feel the need to repeat myself.

VOTE: VeeGee

[Klingoncelt]

@havingfitz - See posts 84 and 94, Hopkirk notices an odd interaction between VeeGee and Vijay, and Gob's lame readlist.

UNVOTE:

I'm not looking at Vijay as Scum now.

Still scumreading VeeJay and Gob.

[Klingoncelt]

*VeeGee

[gob]

Cool you're on the trend of thinking im scum, are you going to give any accusation though besides "his lame readlist"

[SamX]

I think Dessew is leaning town for me. He gives constructive criticism, and that to me is not scummy at all (or maybe he's just a nice person...?).

I don't think gob's readlist was super "lame" as most like to emphasize. It's all he could come up with at the time, but I can't really say too much about that because I haven't really come up with reads for everyone yet either. I don't know about others but I make my reads when I find something useful and don't just post stupid reads for the sake of giving a read. Sometimes that takes time, depending on peoples definitions of "scum" and "town". Not defending gob here but just putting that out there. He's null for now, in my opinion.

No new scum suspicions for me at this time. I'm still set on my vote on VeeGee

[Haschel Cedricson]

@Hasschel, can you now explain the reasoning you wanted to keep secret from earlier?

I already did:

In addition to completely ignoring the Haschelwagon and the events leading up to it, you [SamX] ALSO ignored Trivium's RQS question, so I figured you were a good place to start getting information.

Moving on...

You clearly haven't read my case. It's fabulous, & it isn't long, so you really should.

One of those things is true. It isn't long, but it also isn't good.

Here, I've found it. gob's reaction to this question doesn't match up with scum-gob. Haschel's original question was worded in such a way, that it could (& did) easily have gob talk about other player's in general instead of vijay. (Namely, he asked why were vijay's posts half-assed in contrast to other player's posts, or something like that.) gob didn't even mention this. He isn't self-aware enough to know what questions he was asked. I mean, the "readlist" would've been unnecessarily flashy if he was scum & whatnot. The reason why I'm singling this one out, though, is that you cannot seriously think he would've faked it. So stop this thing of yours, & join the stoz wagon.

I disagree with your statement about my wording. The question"by what metric are vijay's posts half-assed, particularly when compared to the posts of half the players in this game?" clearly demands an answer that actually talks about vijay's posts, and gob's response comes across as an intentional question dodge. Also, your statement "stop this thing of yours" is weird. Like, really weird. For starters, I'm not actually voting for gob, and as of right now I'm not trying to convince others to do so, so I don't have a "thing". And if I do, I have it with a bunch of other players. Somebody who I'm not going to bother looking up floated the idea that the mutual defense between you two is scummy as hell, and your post does nothing but bolster that theory.

Speaking of gob: Here's the post where Accountant flips her read on gob:

he started off fine with clear reads and then went on into a ramble about newbie games and how his reads are always correct. If I had to guess he's VI/scum.

Do you disagree with her summary of your play? Where is the broken logic, and what is sloppy about this?

This is a frustrating game; when I look at everyone I see two townreads and a big ball of garbage.

[gob]

Yes i disagree, i stated the newbie game for reasons (the votes and the reads)

The broken logic was that she had flipped so fast, i think its not like her. Especially considering yes, my reads were clear. I already stated that shouldnt have been egotistical.

I am biased, yes, but in my eyes that is a sloppy flip of opinions, especially considering the reads were as she said, clear.
It seems to me that she is just trying to knock me down a peg because she isnt a fan of my ego. I can understand that, but dont let it get into the game any further.

[VeeGee]

A humble suggestion: make one post.

I would love to, but I keep ending up out of the house all day for he past week or two



And with PAX Prime coming up, that's gonna stay for now.

[gob]

One person i want to analyze is Klingoncelt.

Let us start.

UNVOTE: UNVOTE:

Looks like the Scums are Gob, VeeGee, and Vijay2vasandani.

This is the first really interesting post he makes. He seems to have picked the three most prominent people at the time and say "oh we got scum here"

Klingoncelt is rubbing me the wrong way at the moment, what with a lack of content followed up by a naked vote. Klingon, care to justify?

I don't make large posts.

Gob comes in out of nowhere and makes a weak reads list partially based on post counts. On page 4.

And as Hopkirk pointed out, the exchange between VeeGee and Vijay looks like 2 Scums with no Daychat.

This is, interesting to say the least. And one of the things i would like him to elaborate more on.
My reads list is weak btw, i'll admit that. I was trying to get things moving. (like 50th time i've said this.)

I don't make large posts.

Gob comes in out of nowhere and makes a weak reads list partially based on post counts. On page 4.

And as Hopkirk pointed out, the exchange between VeeGee and Vijay looks like 2 Scums with no Daychat.

And this makes them all confirmed scum? You certainly implied that in your earlier post. Do you have a strong read om them or are you just sheeping Hop?

You're new.

Protip: Unless you hear it from an investigator or the Mod, NO ONE is confirmed.

Those 3 are my strongest reads right now. It's very early in the game, those reads might change before D1 ends.

I can understand this, you are sticking to your word, which is something i have tried to do and i respect it.
However, your word is wrong, at this time i do believe vidjay (and myself lol) are town.

lol kling, sure the reads are early, i even said that. But they are reads, and my reads are usually pretty fucking amazing.

Are you an alt?

If not, where did you play before coming here?

Town of salem forums.

I agree that we need to lynch VeeGee, but we definitely should not hammer early. To be clear, I'm autolynching anybody that quickhammers VeeGee, even if VG turns out to be scum.

That's playing against Town's win condition. It's also narcissistic.

This is just, bare-bones. However, this points to one thing.


Then he calls Accountant a noob, which isnt true imo.

----

In the end i believe Klingoncelt is Town. He has done enough to put himself in the lime-light but he is really doing nothing.

[Haschel Cedricson]

One person i want to analyze is Klingoncelt.

[...]

In the end i believe Klingoncelt is Town. He has done enough to put himself in the lime-light but he is really doing nothing.

Interesting. Why klingoncelt?

[Accountant]

Phone post coming, so don't expect anything too detailed. I only had time to briefly skim the thread, but I think I noted down and answered all the questions. If I missed any questions, please re-ask so I can wrap them up.

Gob

Gob is sixteen different kinds of off, and by that I don't mean he's acting conventionally scummy. It's just that my read on him is all over the place. I've seen his games on the Town of Salem forums(under the name "Gobln") and he seems to consistently display a large ego, often asking for protection on night 1.

Town!Gob
- Posted a clear and unambiguous reads list early in the game. I can't imagine that scum would commit to a position so early, especially with such strong opinions.

- Has been transparent in his thinking. If he thinks someone is scum, he doesn't hesitate to say it. Same for townreads.

- I feel that most of the votes on him are weakly supported. This could be mild evidence for scum trying to mislynch an easy target.

Scum!Gob

- Dodged quite a few questions. What does he have to hide?

- Does not seem to be actively pushing a town agenda. When Haschel Cedricson posts, I get a sense that the game is clearer for me, the metaphorical outlines of players slightly sharper. When Gob posts, I'm left scratching my head. I can't think of a single post of his that left me going "yes, this post definitely helps town and is pushing a town agenda".

- Incomprehensibility. Claiming that my logic is off because I flipped reads from "gob is town" to "gob is VI or scum" doesn't really make sense. Reads should be updated as the game goes on, yes? Not to mention his ??? ramble about the setup early in D1 and his claim that his reads are always right(even when presented with evidence they aren't). After that, he claims that his reads list got town moving, although it didn't.

CONCLUSION:
Gob is vanilla townie : 0%
Gob is power role : 5% given his known meta for acting somewhat unbalanced as a PR
Gob is a clueless town member: 40%
Gob is scum: 60%

Gob is most likely VI/scum.

[gob]

One person i want to analyze is Klingoncelt.

[...]

In the end i believe Klingoncelt is Town. He has done enough to put himself in the lime-light but he is really doing nothing.

Interesting. Why klingoncelt?

He is someone who i think isnt looked at enough, so i gave his posts a read.
I really hope he posts more, and he stops insulting accountant.

[gob]

Phone post coming, so don't expect anything too detailed. I only had time to briefly skim the thread, but I think I noted down and answered all the questions. If I missed any questions, please re-ask so I can wrap them up.

Gob

Gob is sixteen different kinds of off, and by that I don't mean he's acting conventionally scummy. It's just that my read on him is all over the place. I've seen his games on the Town of Salem forums(under the name "Gobln") and he seems to consistently display a large ego, often asking for protection on night 1.

Town!Gob
- Posted a clear and unambiguous reads list early in the game. I can't imagine that scum would commit to a position so early, especially with such strong opinions.

- Has been transparent in his thinking. If he thinks someone is scum, he doesn't hesitate to say it. Same for townreads.

- I feel that most of the votes on him are weakly supported. This could be mild evidence for scum trying to mislynch an easy target.

Scum!Gob

- Dodged quite a few questions. What does he have to hide?

- Does not seem to be actively pushing a town agenda. When Haschel Cedricson posts, I get a sense that the game is clearer for me, the metaphorical outlines of players slightly sharper. When Gob posts, I'm left scratching my head. I can't think of a single post of his that left me going "yes, this post definitely helps town and is pushing a town agenda".

- Incomprehensibility. Claiming that my logic is off because I flipped reads from "gob is town" to "gob is VI or scum" doesn't really make sense. Reads should be updated as the game goes on, yes? Not to mention his ??? ramble about the setup early in D1 and his claim that his reads are always right(even when presented with evidence they aren't). After that, he claims that his reads list got town moving, although it didn't.

CONCLUSION:
Gob is vanilla townie : 0%
Gob is power role : 5% given his known meta for acting somewhat unbalanced as a PR
Gob is a clueless town member: 40%
Gob is scum: 60%

Gob is most likely VI/scum.

Interesting outlook, i can agree with you and say i havent been acting like i should be. That is why i analyzed Kling.

First off i want everyone who had questions that i ignored to post them again, i skimmed and missed some, i know that, but i am pressed for time and i feel it is better spent retorting the attacks i get and analyzing players.

Secondly, i have to go back and fix my wrong doings, i believe i stated why i think saying "logic" was the wrong choice of words a while back. I would find the post but i am really pressured for time since i have school and shit.

Lastly, my agenda is going to be pushed more, i assure you of that, i am going to better manage my time.

PS: Yes, my name on the Town Of Salem Forums is "Gobln"
And no, i wont be as big of a dick as i am on there. I promise.

[Klingoncelt]

One person i want to analyze is Klingoncelt.

[...]

In the end i believe Klingoncelt is Town. He has done enough to put himself in the lime-light but he is really doing nothing.

Interesting. Why klingoncelt?

He is someone who i think isnt looked at enough, so i gave his posts a read.
I really hope he posts more, and he stops insulting accountant.

If you're looking at me so closely, why are you using the wrong pronoun?

Accountant is showing a noobish arrogance. I think she's Town, btw.

[Klingoncelt]

I don't post much on Day 1, I'm checking out everyone else.

I detest wallposts.

I'm one of those "Day 3" players, by then I should have a very accurate reads list, regardless of game size.

[Accountant]

Haschel Cedricson is my top town read by far. VeeGee needs to generate content or things are going to go badly for him, regardless of what his alignment is.