Detective Sergeant Ted Spencer: [trying to calm crowd down demanding their money back after a power outage] It's an act of God, I tell you!
Member of Cinema Crowd: And what do you call an act of God?
Detective Sergeant Ted Spencer: I call your face one, and you won't get your money back on that.
Post a list of your reads in order with explanations please.
Are you doing anything with this or just making noises?
I think I've been pretty clear about my scumhunting for a while now. I've asked plenty of people to post lists of reads, critiqued them and attempted to read them off of what they post.
My current townreads are you, Nacho, Hecatia, Davsto, Vedith, Ank, and now Thor. I've been going back and forth on Farside.
I've been reading the game again looking for potential interactive tells between the others. Pistachi0n, Lying Cat, and Farside make decent sense as a scumteam. I also find Massive and Cataphant scummy on their own. Right now, my goal is to probe those five enough so I can solidify my reads there.
In post 923, Vedith wrote:At this stage scum will want to get rid of the jailor, but try and make it viable to town. Concerning Dav's reads on people, did you feel that there wasn't enough effort in them or did you just not like them?
I don't like the slight push with no hard back up (considering that lynching Dav is going to be near enough impossible today)
You're right. I'm probably batshit to think Dav can be lynched today. That's something that should be resolved with power roles.
Although I disagree that scum would be getting rid of the JK by lynching when they can nightkill.
In post 457, Lying Cat wrote:Of course, that brings us to Sakura, which is probably where I would've put the vote if I'd been super active from the start, but here's the rub there: She's in survival mode. She's not gonna do anything alignment indicative right now because she's on the defensive with a big sign reading everyone's out to get me. My response to that is to leave her alone for a little bit and check back when she pops her head out of the turtle shell and I can harass her until I figure her alignment out.
The belief that Sakura can't be read when she's on the defensive is... strange? As scum, she realizes that people are less inclined to attack her when she's on the defensive and thus goes on the defensive more often; I'm also surprised you're not attacking her hydra partner as a result of this belief because his posts are much more problematic than hers.
At the time, she'd already pulled back into survival mode, voting in order to save herself and only responding. The motivation there (I don't want to be lynched) is the same from both town and scum her. I didn't particularly see a reason to poke her when she would likely have acted the same way regardless of alignment.
Are you saying that she is more likely to get to that place, a survival mode, as scum? From what I know of her, I figured it'd be fairly alignment neutral, actually.
In post 457, Lying Cat wrote:Farside's reentry to the thread came with 2/3 of the post being agreement with ETL. Not just agreement, but "That's how I was feeling". And then she says "ETAngels is null", which doesn't sound like a reasonably or logical conclusion from her previous post. Literally 7 minutes before.
Your argument that farside agreed with ETL twice and thus should be town reading ETL is a weak one. I can agree/disagree with someone plenty but that doesn't translate into town/scumreading them as a result; most people are that way. It's not like farside went "man, ETL is killing this game, I'm agreeing with everything she's doing holy shit also she's null".
No. She came back into the thread mentioning only ETL as null. She quoted things from ETL that she agreed with, nothing questionable, and announced a townread on two people that I'm pretty sure she didn't quote and a nullread on ONLY ETL. No read at all on anyone else she quoted, as far as I remember, and no one asking for her read on ETL. I mean, I'm not actually gonna go back and check atm, but it definitely struck me as something worth noting.
In post 551, Lying Cat wrote:He's playing spectacularly under par. He has yet to do anything town indicative of him, but his response to me has been clearly scum motivated. What better way to respond to someone who is actively pushing at you and trying to figure you out than continuing to call them stupid and ignoring their questions.
The way you're trying to figure him out is by doing nothing and asking him to sell you on his vote. I can see why he would regard that push as stupid and instead would rather see you do something else. Maybe you're right and he truly believes that if he explains why he's voting who he's voting and try to sell you on it that he will be revealed as scum and lynched, but I doubt it.
Fair point, and I'll take your point of view under account.
In post 652, Lying Cat wrote:Hmmm. Your issue with single vote wagons is that they are useless and unlikely to go anywhere, correct? And I'm saying your vote was useless and unlikely to go anywhere. I don't see a purpose in saying "Yeah, other people were voting on the wagon with me" when my issue is hypocrisy in intentions, not hypocrisy in words. Unless you'd like to argue that your vote was useful and likely to actually lead to something?
I don't think Thor's vote on Vedith was useless. I can see Thor viewing your vote on him to be useless.
I'd like to think the reason for different views on similar votes to be obvious, but maybe I'm wrong? Let me know if so.
It really was useless. It was a sheeped lurker push that started on like page seven. Vedith has since then been moderately active, but Thor didn't do shit with his vote for quite a while after that. And I'd love any insight you have into the differences he sees.
In post 414, Lying Cat wrote:The reason you aren't scum with far is the same reason she might be scum.
What would this reason be and why does it mean that Concrete can't be scum with Farside?
Already been answered.
In post 414, Lying Cat wrote:As far as reads, you're slightly town, but you need to be more town. Far and cat are both possible scum for different, possibly mutually exclusive (although I'll think more on that) reasons.
I can maybe see where you are coming from here since Cataphant's defense of Farside doesn't look like scum defending their partner. Do you have more fleshed out reasons for this?
Generally, when I see someone call someone else town w/out any reasoning and without any pressure being placed on them, especially when the latter person was doing something I found questionable at best, I'm wary. Scum doesn't usually jump to announce townreads of their partner for no reason though.
I also don't think I fully understand your basis for Post 457. You say things like:
This gives me the impression that there's some sort of "list" you are working with that you aren't fully disclosing. For instance, why are Farside, Cataphant, Concrete, Hecatia, and Thor the only ones you are talking about? What happened to the rest of the playerlist? The time has come to unravel what was behind the scenes.
That would be a playstyle thing. Entering into any game, I have a list. That list is based off of one of two things based on my alignment: My ability to read the player/expectations of their usefulness OR the player's ability to read me/ability to lynch them later. ETL and Thor are basically the top of both lists for this playerlist, thus a first priority to figure out. Farside is slightly lower. Hecatia's presence in my "I actually give a shit about these players" pile comes from her early presence as a wagon. Cataphant popped up via interactions I noted as fishy above.
In post 457, Lying Cat wrote:And I'm beating him over the head with inane and stupid bullshit to get him to the point where he lashes out.
And you are doing this why exactly? Has there been a time in the past where Thor lashed out at you and you ended successfully ended up reading him as town? If so, link me to that game.
You've non-RVS voted in this game twice. In Post 132, you voted Thor. In Post 551, you voted Thor (again). That's it. Why are you so obsessed with Thor?
See above: Thor is high priority. If possible, I want a townread or hard scumread on him today. His normal play is largely alignment neutral, so the attempt to get him to play a more proactive and emotional game is an attempt to shake him up and make him more readable. Not out of some prior success, but an attempt to try something new.
Also, as far as I can remember, we've never both been town in a game.
In post 457, Lying Cat wrote:Of course, that brings us to Sakura, which is probably where I would've put the vote if I'd been super active from the start, but here's the rub there: She's in survival mode. She's not gonna do anything alignment indicative right now because she's on the defensive with a big sign reading everyone's out to get me. My response to that is to leave her alone for a little bit and check back when she pops her head out of the turtle shell and I can harass her until I figure her alignment out.
The belief that Sakura can't be read when she's on the defensive is... strange? As scum, she realizes that people are less inclined to attack her when she's on the defensive and thus goes on the defensive more often; I'm also surprised you're not attacking her hydra partner as a result of this belief because his posts are much more problematic than hers.
In post 457, Lying Cat wrote:Farside's reentry to the thread came with 2/3 of the post being agreement with ETL. Not just agreement, but "That's how I was feeling". And then she says "ETAngels is null", which doesn't sound like a reasonably or logical conclusion from her previous post. Literally 7 minutes before.
Your argument that farside agreed with ETL twice and thus should be town reading ETL is a weak one. I can agree/disagree with someone plenty but that doesn't translate into town/scumreading them as a result; most people are that way. It's not like farside went "man, ETL is killing this game, I'm agreeing with everything she's doing holy shit also she's null".
In post 551, Lying Cat wrote:He's playing spectacularly under par. He has yet to do anything town indicative of him, but his response to me has been clearly scum motivated. What better way to respond to someone who is actively pushing at you and trying to figure you out than continuing to call them stupid and ignoring their questions.
The way you're trying to figure him out is by doing nothing and asking him to sell you on his vote. I can see why he would regard that push as stupid and instead would rather see you do something else. Maybe you're right and he truly believes that if he explains why he's voting who he's voting and try to sell you on it that he will be revealed as scum and lynched, but I doubt it.
In post 652, Lying Cat wrote:Hmmm. Your issue with single vote wagons is that they are useless and unlikely to go anywhere, correct? And I'm saying your vote was useless and unlikely to go anywhere. I don't see a purpose in saying "Yeah, other people were voting on the wagon with me" when my issue is hypocrisy in intentions, not hypocrisy in words. Unless you'd like to argue that your vote was useful and likely to actually lead to something?
I don't think Thor's vote on Vedith was useless. I can see Thor viewing your vote on him to be useless.
I'd like to think the reason for different views on similar votes to be obvious, but maybe I'm wrong? Let me know if so.
In post 917, Wingback wrote:Alternatively, I could see Lying Cat and Thor as scum together fabricating this argument. Both seem the type to be capable of orchestrating a natural-looking interaction as scum.
I most definitely could. Scum-theater is my favorite. Not in this case though.
Someone asked how I felt about the farside catchup posts. I don't. Catchup posts are incredibly easy to fake, so I'm waiting until she posts something original before looking back to figure anything out.
And I've also been asked to elaborate on reads-
Concrete Angels- mild town, not a pressing concern do to personal reasons.
pistachi0n- null. I need to sit down and address that, though.
massive- Null. Also, likely to get ignored by me for a long time.
Cataphant- Scum. mostly gut, tbh, with the exception of things I've already addressed.
Hecatia Lapislazuli- mild town by situation. Town by claim.
farside22- mild scum, but unaddressable until she gets her head in the game.
Davsto- Town by claim.
Wingback- mild scum. Sitting back and taking a manipulative stance. [p]453[/p] pings hard. Not making waves. Still useful enough that I don't want to lynch D1.
Nachomamma8- Town. Minor paranoia, because I default to town with him, but not worth readdressing yet.
Ankamius- mild town.
Thor665- Minor scum.
Vedith- town by situation.
In post 916, Wingback wrote:What would this reason be and why does it mean that Concrete can't be scum with Farside?
Already been answered.
Where? Quote it.
In post 985, Lying Cat wrote:That would be a playstyle thing. Entering into any game, I have a list. That list is based off of one of two things based on my alignment: My ability to read the player/expectations of their usefulness OR the player's ability to read me/ability to lynch them later. ETL and Thor are basically the top of both lists for this playerlist, thus a first priority to figure out. Farside is slightly lower. Hecatia's presence in my "I actually give a shit about these players" pile comes from her early presence as a wagon. Cataphant popped up via interactions I noted as fishy above.
I don't think I understand what the lists are. List 1 is your ability to read the player/usefulness? That's not the same thing so how is that on the same list? List 2 is player's ability to read you/your ability to lynch them? They're not the same thing either. Clarify these things.
In post 985, Lying Cat wrote:See above: Thor is high priority. If possible, I want a townread or hard scumread on him today. His normal play is largely alignment neutral, so the attempt to get him to play a more proactive and emotional game is an attempt to shake him up and make him more readable. Not out of some prior success, but an attempt to try something new.
If his play looks alignment-neutral to you, why wouldn't you prioritize reading players whose play
doesn't
look alignment-neutral from you POV? Normally when someone has a lot of null posts, I try to read others who don't, first.
In post 985, Lying Cat wrote:
Hecatia Lapislazuli- mild town by situation. Town by claim.
Davsto- Town by claim.
Vedith- town by situation.
Nachomamma8- Town. Minor paranoia, because I default to town with him, but not worth readdressing yet.
Concrete Angels- mild town, not a pressing concern do to personal reasons.
Ankamius- mild town.
pistachi0n- null. I need to sit down and address that, though.
massive- Null. Also, likely to get ignored by me for a long time.
farside22- mild scum, but unaddressable until she gets her head in the game.
Wingback- mild scum. Sitting back and taking a manipulative stance. [p]453[/p] pings hard. Not making waves. Still useful enough that I don't want to lynch D1.
Thor665- Minor scum.
Cataphant- Scum. mostly gut, tbh, with the exception of things I've already addressed.
(Re-arranged so I can keep them in perspective)
Why are all your behavioral townreads besides Vedith "mild?" And all of your scumreads besides Cataphant are "mild" or "minor." Why no strong reads at all? Is this normal for you?
In post 115, pistachi0n wrote:This was a bad post. I know it's technically not game related but it's like you're trying to convey an "i don't give a fuck" attitude.
Disagree on notscience reading this post as town; it's not an attack I agree with, but not an attack that's particularly scummy.
In post 157, pistachi0n wrote:Most of her posts at first are filler that makes them seem like they're trying to do something, like 78.
I don't understand your point, nor do I understand why 78 is a particularly good example of it. Why is that "pretending to do something" over actually doing something or over simple and plain filler?
In post 157, pistachi0n wrote:Like there are a lot of posts but nothing good until 2/3 into the iso.
Sheeps votes on Vedith.
What is the good stuff that you're referring to?
A few people sheeped votes onto Vedith; why was Hecatia's sheep a special one?
In general, I think most of her progressions look pretty decent (she's picked on Hecatia and Davesto and far side plenty and not backing off based on claims makes sense from a newer player's perspective). The read that I don't understand as much as I'd like, which is kind of a big deal, is the read in Hestia; I don't think she really got into reasons she disliked the slot other than "pretending to do stuff" which is a point I'd like to be walked through a bit.
I do think her play is pretty ballsy as scum if she continuously tunnels two people who are outed as power roles and can block/investigate her, and none of her reasoning send a up a red flag where it seems completely made up or disingenuous. It is a problem that her reads outside of her tunnel targets hasn't really been fleshed out, but I don't actually mind this a massive amount since I don't really remember her giving reads on a ton of people in Z Mafia where I played with her last.
Will make reading through Wingback's reasons for voting her more closely a priority.
"Playing with Nacho is like playing with a religious conservative." ~UncertainKitten
-- Fate, Vanilla Townie, was brutally stabbed by a throwing sword in endgame.
In post 990, Nachomamma8 wrote:Will make reading through Wingback's reasons for voting her more closely a priority.
On this point: first off, I'll say that Lying Cat is a stronger scumread for me now. If I thought we could lynch them today, I'd push it but there are two problems: Firstly, I'd expect players who have played with Lying Cat before (you, Concrete) to resist the lynch because I've noticed people being notoriously reluctant to lynch within their in-group on D1. Secondly, players with very little experience tend to townread players that post "content" without thoroughly analyzing what that content actually is. I was hoping more people that I think are town and have clearly played with Lying Cat before (you, Thor, Concrete) flesh your reads out on them. I've listed out my issues with Lying Cat in my past few posts. I also think their scumread on me for "not making waves" is pretty disingenuous and calling my post when I was lurking "manipulative" is paper-thin considering the vast majority of content I've posted came since that post.
Onto Pistachi0n. My five major issues come down to these:
Calling out Thor and Lying Cat as TvT. Scum
love
dismissing wall wars as TvT without analyzing the actual arguments in-depth because it gives them a lazy out. This is even more so the case when one of their partners is involved in that fight. Pistachi0n is unable to corroborate why she's doing this beyond vague assertions that they are trying to read each other and her timeline is all messed up.
The jump onto Hecatia which you've quoted in your previous post. Her reasoning is horrible and it makes more sense as scum hopping onto an easy wagon than town legitimately finding Hecatia scummy for the reasoning she gave.
Your point about her pushing the claimed PRs holds less water when you consider that she was already getting townread for being "batshit crazy." Surely scum would continue doing that as it allows them a distraction to post content and they get no blowback since people are townreading them anyways. I don't think town would attack the PRs because anyone with a brain can tell that Hecatia and Davsto are town.
Her readslist in Post 687 is weak as hell. I talk about my problems with it in my Post 693 and Post 732.
Her pushes on Davsto and Hecatia are both on relatively "easy" targets. She never once pushes anyone that could be perceived as a "strong" player argumentation-wise. The exception is Farside and her insistence that Farside is "dodgy and less strong than usual" is the one and only town thing I've seen from her. Although if Farside is scum, this isn't a towntell.
I'm not sure who fits better into the third scum slot. Massive and Cataphant need to post more content and Farside needs to catch up and engage with the game.
In post 923, Vedith wrote:At this stage scum will want to get rid of the jailor, but try and make it viable to town. Concerning Dav's reads on people, did you feel that there wasn't enough effort in them or did you just not like them?
I don't like the slight push with no hard back up (considering that lynching Dav is going to be near enough impossible today)
You're right. I'm probably batshit to think Dav can be lynched today. That's something that should be resolved with power roles.
Although I disagree that scum would be getting rid of the JK by lynching when they can nightkill.
I'm not in a good mood right now, and idk when i'll feel better, but for the time being im letting notty take full control of the hydra, i may pop in and comment on stuff if i dont feel like exploding
In post 985, Lying Cat wrote:massive- Null. Also, likely to get ignored by me for a long time.
This makes me super curious about WHY you would ignore me. Not that I have a huge ego or anything, and I don't think I've overly played with either of your heads, but I don't think anyone's ever said they felt OK ignoring me.
"1AM .. not a good time to think I started mixing massive and mathcam" - Totem, DP8
"unvote mlaker; vote massive; It's like MeMe/mneme and Corsato/Cadmium" - Dragon Phoenix, Newbie 38
PLEASE NOTE: I actively avoid being online on weekends! Don't replace me just because of this!
I think my assertion that multiple people were townreading Vedith because of his attack on Ank was due to a case of faulty memory; I'm rereading Ank right now to get a better read on the slot.
In post 80, Ankamius wrote:eh, I've mostly been seeing more town than scum markers so far, although a lot of the scum markers I'd expect her to make are more long term from what I can tell.
Could you talk about the town and scum markers you saw for Sakura at this point in time? A major problem I have with your posting so far is that you don't really seem to have much depth in your reads. I think talking about what seems to be a read where you're taking a lot into account and thinking about a bunch of things would help a lot.
Most likely the scum on the Vedith wagon. It's Thor if not him.
I like that you actually decided to follow up on your wagon thoughts from earlier (which backs up that you were townreading Vedith at this point), but I don't necessarily understand why you thought scum had to be on that wagon. Just because the case was bad meant that scum was going to jump all over it?
In post 419, Ankamius wrote:Are the same three slots mostly drowning out the game.
Oh hey.
I found this post to be more likely to be coming from a town perspective than a scum one; the three slots he insulted were also the three slots driving the game, and I find that it's rare that lower-impact scum step on the toes of all three power players in such a way. There's a chance he does it because it's something that's widely seen as town, but the tradeoff is that you make the people who have the most influence over the lynch in a position where they want you to be scum and I don't think Ank made that tradeoff.
In post 509, Ankamius wrote:far from sheepable-by-three-players-instantly good.
I don't believe that the strength of a case is what dictates how many sheep it gets; if that were the case, town would win games a lot more frequently than they do.
Take a closer look at how you reached the conclusion and reassess, because you didn't reach the correct one.
I believe Ank is probably more likely to be town than not.
I haven't particularly liked any of his attacks thus far, but I also haven't really minded them all that much.
I don't think his votes have been opportunistic in a "going for a mislynch" type of way.
I think that some of his pots sound good tonally.
As for Thor's case on him, I think that town do scumread attacks on them more often than random. I don't think they scumread attacks against them at such a high rate where not scumreading an attack against you should be cause for concern. I think Ank townreading Vedith's attack against him makes sense with the earlier town read on Vedith, and I find Vedith's case on Ank a reasonable enough thing to townread from an outside perspective.
"Playing with Nacho is like playing with a religious conservative." ~UncertainKitten
-- Fate, Vanilla Townie, was brutally stabbed by a throwing sword in endgame.
In post 992, Wingback wrote:Firstly, I'd expect players who have played with Lying Cat before (you, Concrete) to resist the lynch because I've noticed people being notoriously reluctant to lynch within their in-group on D1.
I have the tendency to resist a lynch on a player I know who is null or townier and I feel will be emotionally hurt by a push on them. I have the tendency to resist a lynch on a player who is null or townier that I feel I can read very very well with proper engagement and there has been something preventing me from getting proper engagement with a slot. These are the only two situations where people in the "in-group" get special treatment, and they don't even get that special treatment consistently! I've personally been trying to push and sort people I know well faster; if you think that I'm resisting a lynch because of a personal opinion I have about a player, I'll do my best to reanalyze and explain my process better.
Time for this game is over
The only player who I would prefer to lynch over Lying Cat is Cataphant.
"Playing with Nacho is like playing with a religious conservative." ~UncertainKitten
-- Fate, Vanilla Townie, was brutally stabbed by a throwing sword in endgame.
