NY 190: Molla's Large Normal

[talah]

I still don't think AJ's scum.

FAFAFAFAFAFAFAFAFAFAFA

Haven't learned to translate "FAFA" yet

No.

Vote FA.

Why are you voting Vedith and trying to get me to vote FAQ?

[talah]

@Talah, You just went through great analysis on why to vote VeeGee while espousing a conclusion that cannot be true if VeeGee is town (namely AJ and the Worst are town).

This is a

factually incorrect statement

. Can you tell me what shadow-condition you're overlaying on top of actual facts to reach the conclusion that if VeeGee is town, AJ and Worst are scum?

Assuming Sky and The Worst are town, they'll have zero problem sending the message to someone other than themselves, AJ, TW, Talah, and Sam.

I'm not at all comfortable with you having any influence over who messages are sent to while you're presenting falsities as fact. This is what you did in Gundam - just slipping in bullshit statements here and there and not explaining them when challenged, but rather saying they were correct when they're obviously not. I'm not having that in this game so if you could kindly explain your position on the interdependencies between Skybird/VeeGee and AJ/Worst that would be appreciated.

[talah]

Okay.

If you do the subtraction what's the remaining pool?

@AJ, did you clarify whether your message states 'Town Friendly Neighbour' or just 'Friendly Neighbour'?

I remember Titus asking this before but don't remember your response if any.

[talah]

Titus - so was there a conflict or did AJ also say 'Town Friendly Neighbour'?

Also I've just decided I don't care if the FN messages get sent to scummy players because they also have to confirm. However FAQ needs to come out of the pool because he's claimed a PR and would be too easy to kill and say the message went there.

[talah]

Oh and presumably IaI needs to not be in the pool.

[talah]

Well I'm still waiting on clarification from AJ then.

Yep, FAQ said he had a kill-stopping ability.

Happy to remove both PRs from the pool if we get some consensus that it's an acceptable pool?

[talah]

Ah okay ninja'd. I guess we can come back to this closer to the end of the day.

[talah]

Huh, i thought AJ said i was a secret IC here:

I mean, I know Luna's alignment. Anyone who's town knows her alignment.

So was he lying about everyone knowing my alignment?

Pretty sure he was just saying you're obvtown. I didn't get any "Secret IC" notification.

[talah]

Talah's making a mountain out of a molehill. AJ was just saying you're so obvtown only scum would attack you.

I don't even like AJ and I know Talah's stretching.

What mountain out of what molehill?
What stretching?

@Luna just seemed like a turn of phrase to me.

[talah]

I'm asking you to say what the problem is with me saying AJ was simply calling Luna obvtown.

[talah]

Since you said exactly the same thing directly after I did, and then characterised my statements as "making a mountain out of a molehill" and "stretching".

Do explain.

[talah]

There isn't. The fact you started blathering about secret ICS and what not is absurd.

It was already discussed and clarified by AJ IIRC and I was responding to Luna, not "blathering".

If Luna didn't want an answer she wouldn't have asked.

[talah]

"The" friendly neighbour?

[talah]

It must be the same verbatim. It isn't. God this isn't rocket science.

I agree with you on this.

[talah]

Why can't people get the meaning of the word "paraphrase" it's obvious neither of them can directly quote mod information.

Right. Of course there is no right to quote. They aren't quoting. They are mentioning the format of the PM. That there's no redundant town. The fact the role is mentioned.

Whine later but VeeGee is scum.

I could have probably phrased the question better, to the effect of "does the word Town appear before the role in your FN confirmation PM?"

I'm happy enough with this right now:

VOTE: VeeGee

[talah]

I believe we're waiting on Salamence and CDB to say whether they'll participate.

I'm also waiting on the answer to this from Sal:

Why are you voting Vedith and trying to get me to vote FAQ?

[talah]

Is it just me or has the site not been pausing on pre-edits just lately?

[talah]

AJ have you mentioned this anywhere onsite before?

[talah]

Yeah I suppose not. Although if he had said it anywhere else then it brings some kind of closure to what Luna's been focussed on this dayphase.

[talah]

Pun unintended....

[talah]

You seemed to have been taking it seriously and he responded seriously, how was it a joke.

[talah]

Also I can't quote speakeasy content but it looks like Salamence has site-flaked.

[talah]

You seemed to have been taking it seriously and he responded seriously, how was it a joke.

Because obviously someone lying about their eyesight makes them scum.
You have to believe i would seriously believe that to think it wasn't a joke.

Then were these posts about:

I kinda wanna lynch Aj now just because he's been lying a lot and makes me wonder whether his claim is a lie too.

I'd like to know what I've lied about.

And you literally have been talking all day if my claim was a lie. How are you just starting to wonder after having voted me and toyed with it for so long?

The cognitive dissonance Day 1, the me being a secret IC, about Veegee saying he got the same message as you, and now about your eyesight since according to This article that eyesight doesn't even exist... unless you got it backwards which means you get an eyesight ability score of 25 which scores are categorized as "Restricted performance" And now you just said:

My eyesight is not a lie.

Which i've just proved it is, and since you call it out into question as a thing you could have been lying about then i went and brought proof that such an eyesight doesn't exist.

Joking? Didn't seem like that at all to me.

[talah]

*Then what were those posts about

[talah]

Well apparently she thinks you're just "joking" about things and it's obvious.
Doesn't match wanting to lynch you while citing serious things and jokey things in the one post.

(the fuck is Ubers?)

[talah]

@Luna - well why did you take the effort to say you wanted to lynch him due to him lying about the 600/20 statement?

[talah]

Is this trivial?

edit - @Titus

[talah]

We could just ignore the eyesight part. I don't think Luna has an issue with it.

I dont' know how she makes a big deal of it then.
How am I supposed to take anything seh says seriously then?
For all I know she voted you out of the gate today as a "joke".
Which changes the way I think about things and renders quite a lot of the "hey you're both town" things I've been doing today fucking useless.

[talah]

If you can't tell, then i really feel sorry for you.
I said I explicitly went out of my way to prove he was lying about his eyesight, because he explicitly said he wasn't lying about his eyesight.

You went explicitly out of your way to underline the "Secret IC" thing as well which was also ridiculous.

Was that a joke?

If so why did you ask?

I don't like being the brunt of jokes.

[talah]

How am I or anyone else in this thread supposed to tell the difference between when you're joking and being serious then?

[talah]

But it made me sad to know i wasn't a secret IC because that means i'm not confirmed town :<

Best role NA

[talah]

You're saying you feel sorry for me for not 'picking up' on the eyesight question and simultaneously credulously asking whether you're acutally a "Secret IC"

I need to go to bed.

[talah]

Your argument was that AJ lying further made it more likely he was scum.

[talah]

You do realise that if he confirms that he received the "Town" friendly neighbour message and is subsequently lynched and flips town, you're tomorrow's lynch (or tonight's Vig if one exists)?

And I mean he's being lynched pretty much either way due to your claim.

[talah]

Agreed and I'm out and Luna doesn't make sense and waiting on Salamence (probably gone) CDB (sure he's catching up) VeeGee (lurking) and Perfomer (VLA for now).

I might take a day or two off this weekend.

[talah]

Luna doesn't make sense

What? D:

Not... Sure... If... Trolling...

[talah]

When you say you feel sorry for me for not picking up, that a joke you pushed as an additional argument for reading AJ as scum, was actually a

joke

as opposed to a

legitimate concern

--

Then you don't make sense

to me

.

But I'll have a think about it and like I said I need a day or so off, I think. Please be more transparent if you're going to do things like that.

[talah]

@AJ - That's objectively the wrong vote if you believe FAQ visited me and IaI targetted me with a vig shot last night.

[talah]

Personally I just find it funny (like raised eyebrow, sorta ha-ha funny) that Titus replaces into a game and suddenly another "Vig" is happy to claim they've shot me despite the fact I've been reasonably well townread.

@IaI can you point to where you indicated anywhere that you had a vig role, or that you were thinking about shooting me, yesterday?
Did you look into any of my scum meta before making that decision?

Anyway I'm still taking it easy for the weekend so bbl.

[talah]

Cliff's notes because I'm playing Isaac tonight and am currently being lazy.

@IaI

- The vig claim is the least believeable claim of all. There's still a missing nightkill to account for. My guess is that I was the sole nightkill and you're claiming it.
Titus did this as scum in Gundam - I referred to it earlier in the game.
I was a stupid vig candidate and you don't appear to have thought it through.
You also ignored my question on whether you'd looked at any of my scum meta before deciding to submit the kill against me. The job of a vig is to make good decisions, or if they can't be bothered researching their targets, to clear ambiguity. Not to go out on a limb because of gut feeling.
I think you didn't think it through beyond what you've already stated and the arguments in favour of vigging me night one were weak.
I also don't believe you had a reason to think Performer was crumbing hider unless it was covering for his claims. You reacted almost neutrally to his vig fakeclaim, demonstrated that you didn't spot any PGO claim, and a hider claim is super convenient if there's a scum JailKeeper. If performer was jailkept, any investigative result would come back as no result and the "crumb" could be easily modified to commuter instead of hider (as both roles avoid a nightkill). It just seems like fakeclaims in the making which was the whole reason I was pushing him so hard day 1.
And you'll note I was focussing on those *defending* him with reasons I considered bad, just as much.

The wagon was still almost impossible to push to L-1 over the full course of a day. That should be something you're suspicious of as a vig. Performer was the best kill last night.

@Performer

- I asked you some specific questions regarding your fake crumbing of claims in post 1746.
Answer them please.

Regarding VeeGee:

We need him to come back in and clarify the following:

@VeeGee - does your Friendly Neighbour message have the word "Town" before the role?

Unfortunately even with what I agree with from Titus - the best outcome we can actually hope for is that VeeGee clarifies this is the case and flips *town*.
In this case AJ and TheWorst would be confirmed scum together. (self-pre-edit actually only AJ would be confirmed scum as he could be awkwarding the claim the same as VeeGee... I'll consider that.)
Otherwise he flips independent scum who decided to respond - awkwardly. A VeeGee scumflip would prove nothing else.

Regarding Friendly Neighbour claims

:
For Skybird to fake-claim FN *prior* to TheWorst town-claiming the same role, the scumteam would have had to have a Day-Rolecop shot and have targetted TheWorst with it.
Otherwise it's a very low probability that the original claim is fake - unless both are.

Regarding AJ/FAQ claims

:
I don't think we have enough evidence / good reasoning to lynch either today.
Even as a hypothetical - my current running theory being that there are simple enough roles which would counter the current town PR claims (minus the Vig claim which I don't believe for a second if it was rounded up to the closest integer) - Consider what I suggested to Performer.
Scum
= 1 unlimited strongman
= 1 jailkeeper
= 2 goons

All that needs to happen for town to be devastated is for the jailkeeper to keep the doc, then scum strongman kills the bodyguard.
Even if we happen to lynch correctly one or the other is preserved and has decent options when it comes to killing the remaining FNs if both of them are true.

There is literally no reason for us to lynch any of these claims today.

The only claim I would lynch is the Vig claim, which is traditionally (and proven in practice if last night's kill is even to be entertained) - a negative utility role.
The fact I don't believe it because it's a essentially a scumclaim targetting me has not much to do with the facts of "which PR would be good to lynch today?".

I'm underwhelmed that we're entertaining that our first lynch after a Day 1 no-kill will be any credible claimed PR which can't do anything to *harm* town tonight.

So - from my perspective these are the options

(in no particular order, although weighted differently):--

1) Get VeeGee to clarify the sameness or differentness of his claimed FN message compared to AJs, and lynch VeeGee if a difference exists
2) Lynch Performer like we should have done yesterday, and who is probably the scum strongman given that there was no forced kill last night, and his slot was under a lot of suspicion and a prime investigative target while scum knew less about roles than they do today
3) Lynch IaI as very probably scum claiming an actual kill attempt on me last night
4) I'm happy with Salamence / Firebird slot based on them pushing me to vote FAQ while voting someone else themselves, and also the role-check from Titus
5) Lynch CDB based on his defense of Performer and offering alternatives of FAQ / Zakk and (he'll disagree here) *effectively* not caring which.

Also super-concerned about Titus for the Performer defence on entry along with the questions I asked catboi about defending Performer which he answered with conflicts and then subbed out. Less concerned than others though as she appears to be doing work scumhunting. It's just the conclusions which take work to get a straight answer about and I'm still in conflict here because quite a lot of her *actions* seem town-motivated to me.


Anywhoo, that's pretty much my thoughts for tonight unless anyone's around in the next half hour and wants to talk.

VOTE: I Am Innocent

[talah]

What's your tactic?
Not that I understand what you just said.

[talah]

Well I'm straight up saying none of the claims except the vig should be lynched, as I don't believe the claim.
I believe the others can exist.

Actually I thought you had something more cereberal.
I see your voting patterns and don't mind them really aside from the Performer wagon break but I question why you think it's a good idea to lynch AJ today.
(After our subsequent chats, that is.)

[talah]

After that, we are exactly where we stood, apart from outing out 2 other roles (including his own) and adding an additional possible target of the scum.

I think I fucked up that myself by saying it would be useful to claim kill-stopping or not roles.

AJ - He's not really top on my list now to lynch. I am still up for either FN just for information based results.

So there you have it.

Fair enough. I think it's more useful tomorrow after another message from each gets sent if we need to do so.

[talah]

Talah, here are my thoughts in response to ur post:

1) so in your dream world, I am scum with the other 4 claims being town because I am in a super strong scum team, one that you continue to make stronger in your head with each additional claim, one of which is an unlimited strongman as u suggested, yet you were the sole target and didn't die because the unlimited strongman.... (Finish the sentence please).

It's not getting stronger, it's the original theory I floated to Performer as an example of how easy it would be to counter the current claims.
I didn't modify it when FAQ claimed - it's still favouring scum.
I think your claim is bull because you have no flow of thought to back up submitting a kill against me.

It's not a "dream world" by the way, it's how I'm assessing the game.

2) have u looked at my scum meta? I onced faked a cop claim as a mafia traitor and did not just get one town mislynched, but two on false investigations. So for your reasoning to say it must be a fake claim that scum IAI hadnt thought through is lazier than me not looking at meta before I used my vig shot. Look at my town meta, and more often than not, I'm pretty good at picking out the weak town mislynched targets from D1. Assuming I'm right about performer, that means your last 4 votes on D1 were on town players. I stand by my shot on u from N1, and would say there is a decent chance of more of that N2 (there's my hint for my N2 target)

My problem is you had a convoluted reason to be "right" about Performer.
After that you decide to "Vig" a a pretty strong townie.
I'm guessing I was right on at least a couple of my Day 1 reads (including yourself).

3) to answer your question no I didn't look at meta. I never use meta unless I played with person before or maybe sometimes is someone else provides it. I work full time in a demanding job, I'm married with 4 kids, I usually don't play more than one game at a time, so yeah looking through others games is not really something I can afford to use my little free time to do. But once again take a look through my games and prove me wrong. You apparently have more time than me.

I work in a full time job as well. My boss is away this week and our third has been away on stress leave for 3 months. I'll take breaks when I need and you really *should* look at my scum meta as it takes a whole lot more fucking time for me to come up with something as scum, than it does for me to act as I usually do as town.
Is this comment game-related or are you just saying that I have more time than you?
How does that relate to your decision to submit a "vig" against me though?
Are you saying you had no time therefore you submitted a shitty vig?

4) oh your imaginary scum team also has a JK. Why did sky birds note go through in your imaginary world where the other 4 claims are legit? Wouldn't scum want to discredit sky bird by leaving her alive without a result? Maybe town has a role blocker that blocked the scum JK? Problem with your dream world of the 4 legit town claims is that you can't make up a reasonable scum team to offset it that lines up with the actions we've seen at night. I tried to do that before my claim, and it gets even worse now when you add FAQs to the mix.

Yeah my imaginary scumteam, is, imaginary. I was giving a specific example of roles that could easily account for the current claims because hey - people were super keen on claims-lynching. I thought they were possible.
Scum can't discredit Skybird. The slot claimed *first* as I have already mentioned and you don't seem to be interested in actually thinking through. Town has a roleblocker? ok Kappa. Again with "My dream world". Come up with a better working theory that accounts for the N1 nightkill and I'll think about it.

What's the problem with my "dream scum-team" that it doesn't line up with what we've seen?
You just said that precisely so please correct the several posts I've made supposing why the current PR-claims (except for yours) are hyperbolic and unrealistic.
Because I don't belive your claim and I've made it pretty clear that there isn't a good reason to lynch any claim except for yours today.

You say I diverted attention from performer. Well you appear to be diverting attention from the other 4 claimed players, making me wonder if there is more than 1 scum in there.

Where did I say you diverted attention from Performer?
I said you protected him by making up a claim that didn't exist.
I said others protected performer.
It's not the same thing.

@group, I am also willing to lynch talah today. His vote on a player that can prove his role future nights while diverting attention from 2 roles that cannot is very scummy. Not sure why more of u can't see this!

Mokay good lynch. Well thought through. OMGIS

[talah]

Fair enough. I think it's more useful tomorrow after another message from each gets sent if we need to do so.

I would like to suggest some names. I think that it shouldn't be myself or you. As we both can be seen as biased.
I think 3 names given that is all agreed, and each FN picks a name from those 3.

I'm flexible but cautious and will give reasons if I disagree.

[talah]

To create chaos and confusion? Though it didn't end up in your favor and attracted a ton of attention to you.
Ehhhh mehhhh idk now. All these claims are crazy.

IaI's info doesn't explain how there was an NK from mafia that night.

Well assuming the bodyguard is the legit claim, I'm wondering if both his bullet's are gone on that vest of his.

Sorry couldn't help it.

I just skipped back 3 pages reading up and found IaI's thoery on the missing nightkill.

Apparently I was targeted by both scum and him.

[talah]

Regarding AJ/FAQ claims

:
I don't think we have enough evidence / good reasoning to lynch either today.
Even as a hypothetical - my current running theory being that there are simple enough roles which would counter the current town PR claims (minus the Vig claim which I don't believe for a second if it was rounded up to the closest integer) - Consider what I suggested to Performer.
Scum
= 1 unlimited strongman
= 1 jailkeeper
= 2 goons

If there is an unlimited strongman why was there no night kill?

If there is a JK, why did sky birds note go through assuming those 4 claims are legit.

The only answer is those 4 roles can't be town, and the obvious fake is most likely AJ/FAQ.

Hi, as I said it was a realistic combo that easily countered the current claims.
It makes a bit of sense as far as I'm thinking.
But I dont' expect Molla to be so vanilla about it.

We have no flip so I want more info.

[talah]

If there is an unlimited strongman why was there no night kill?

Strongman was under threat from town PRs Day 1 and the Jailkeeper utility was used to protect instead of to block.

If there is a JK, why did sky birds note go through assuming those 4 claims are legit.

See above. Friendly neighbour only confirms themself once. They can send multiple messages to do so.
Tell me how Skybiurd gets overlooked in any other scenario considering she calimed first. There's nothing unique about the theoretical scumteam. She still didn't get killed or blocked.

The only answer is those 4 roles can't be town, and the obvious fake is most likely AJ/FAQ.

You're really not interested in thinking through things from a town perspective huh.
How about you iterate through the current claims and what you think about them.

Because at the least you should be thinking that one of AJ or myself is Town due to the no-kill.

[talah]

I could do either as a compromise as well. I want Vedith's input though since he seemed to have a plan.

Both options seem fairly mediocre compared to IaI / Performer which seem like optimal lynches to me.

Worst is now giving me the heebie geebies with his super-low postcount and awkward posts.

Luna I'm surprised you don't think I could have been targeted by scum yesterday. I didn't obvtown enough for your liking?
That means you think you were the scum kill target. However you were surprised at being called obvtown yourself.
Why do you think scum target you?

Performer still dodgin' my questions by not answering them.

Performer: I was trying to draw a nightkill with my behaviour.
Me: Sure, and your behaviour was to crumb these PRs. How did crumbing those PRs make you a nightkill target?
Performer: I already answered that. With my behaviour.

[talah]

Considering that Sala was town, that makes FB town. Just saying.
Plenty of time to catch up FB, so don't worry.

I'm sure that someone can give a run down of claims and results that have been said (I won't because I'm lazy).

Luna/Talah you 2 seem good at catch up posts, can you kindly?

Egh I'm not in catch-up post mode right now.
Surely you can give your own dot-point summary of events if you want to catch Firebringer up.

Hi Firebringer by the way if I didn't already say that.
I'm suspicious of your slot because of the way Banana was throwing votes around but then townread your slot on her replace-out and Salamence's first few posts.
More recently Sal was pushing me to vote FAQ while he had a vote on someone else. That sorta wiped out the goodwill I had on the slot. He also said something I don't understand (in greek) when I copied it into translate. Then he replaced out. (Well he replaced specifically without answering why he was pushing me to vote someone he wasn't voting.)

So you have a lot of ground to make up if you want to avoid being lynched. Especially after you said you'd have to read your own slot's content rather than just saying "Uh yeeeeah I'm not a rolecop".
I don't see how sticking with your own slot's gambit would help as a replacing player.
Best option is to get your reads down and tell the truth.
Having to check your own slot's posts as opposed to - idunno - just checking your own role PM - is a pretty decent scumtell.

Short catch-up for your own info, but doesn't cover a microspeck of what's actually happened in this thread up till now (and we're only in Day 2).
I'd suggest the first thing you want to do is decide who you'd lynch today and give reasons.

[talah]

Why do you think scum target you?

I don't think i was targeted?:

Why would they shoot any of FAQ, talah, me, AJ over someone like Skybird. It doesn't make any sense, I participated in a town mislynch yesterday, AJ was decently scumread by a few, talah also lynched Zakk, and FAQ lynched Zakk AND is being scumread by a few.

So you think Scum no-killed?

[talah]

I agree completely. I don't think I was a sensible vig target at all.

Claiming it serves two purposes - allows him to locate the other protective role and gives him outs for submitting kills on later nights.

[talah]

I looked up JK by the way and that's correct that it doesn't rolestop but it still matches the hider role (as in any investigatiion could be counter-claimed by hider).

Remember that the only thing that scum don't know is what PRs exist. If we don't have an investigative role there's no way they could have known that except to deduce it from their own roles.

[talah]

Titus, do you remember in Gundam who your slot dayvigged before you replaced in?

If you don't I'm happy to tell you. But that was a bald-faced dayvig on town.

Do you think IaI's Vig claim on me makes any sense?

[talah]

I agree completely. I don't think I was a sensible vig target at all.

Claiming it serves two purposes - allows him to locate the other protective role and gives him outs for submitting kills on later nights.

How would a fake vig claim give scum an out? A fake vig claim is suicidal, the lack of an extra kill would crush that claim.

Are you willing to bet ur game life on me being a fake vig? If so I will agree to shoot you n2 if you agree to ask any town protective roles we may have not to target you.

If you and I are both alive to start D3, I will go 1 vs 1 against u, cause I'll know you had a scum teammate protect u/u lied about being BP.

Deal?

Fake vig claim covers for an actual nightkill and allows you to continue to nightkill whoever you want - all you need to do is rationalise each kill with some shitty reasoning like "your vote bounced between me and performer and you were on the zakk wagon". You don't even need analysis.

No, I'm not willing to make any "game life" bet on you being scum. I'm saying that my feeling is you're lying based on the conversation we had in realtime, where you tilted and said you thought performer was a "hider", with no reason. Performer then avoids addressing anything specific about the claims. Nailing you two fuckers down is like nailing jelly to a wall. You won't clarify points I've made against you.

I actually expect to be alive tomorrow considering the claims we have on the table. I did not necessarily expect to be alive this morning.
Explain how I have a scum teammate. Is it AJ or FAQ?
How does each of these protect me, and why?
What suspicioin did I draw?

[talah]

Pre planned vig shots are so bad.
If you are really a vig, it just takes a RB on scum team and you are useless.

You outted information and gave information which has only confused the day further. You should have waited 1 more night, took a shot and proved to us.

No he should have either shot a lurker or someone who was suspicious.

You let people who your townreads, are townreading, live.

He has zero flow of thought on this.

[talah]

And I'm saying the most salient point is that he tried to kill someone who was scumreading both himself and Performer.

[talah]

Performer, I don't like VG saying he answered your questions when he didn't. That with his limited amount of content I'm thinking a VG lynch might be in order.

That is your read.

I have read sala as scum for awhile now.

Performer, I don't like VG saying he answered your questions when he didn't. That with his limited amount of content I'm thinking a VG lynch might be in order.

I could do this too.

I could do either as a compromise as well. I want Vedith's input though since he seemed to have a plan.

I want to lynch IaI. Will compromise for scum.
VeeGee just never came back.
CDB's posts have been uninformed and good-looking (read well formatted) but seem forced and his reasoning has been on the outside edges of what I'd call reality.
Sala / Firebringer I have no idea why you would read as town.
I'd think about Worst but for the FN claim.

Your opinion please sir.

[talah]

Just to clarify - Performer's not even on my radar as town.
Will compromise for other-scum.

So I probably should say
IaI
Performer

CDB prob-scum

Sal/Fire compromise
VeeGee compromise

[talah]

Who's opinion?
Can I give mine anyway?

Yeah I only doubt the claim from IaI as I doubt there are 2 people with BP.
The way it was done was off for me.

I already said about the 2 FN. Given 3 agreed names and they each visit 1 of their choice.

I just didn't see Sala at scum, what's scummy from him for you?

Your opinion. I didn't check back to see what you said.

How does 2 BulletProof claims make you doubt IaI's vig claim?

I already said but for the hard of hearing it was because banana's slot worried me until the replace-out and then Sal was asking me to vote FAFAFAFAFA. Who he wasn't even voting at the time.

[talah]

Fair enough. I think it's more useful tomorrow after another message from each gets sent if we need to do so.

I would like to suggest some names. I think that it shouldn't be myself or you. As we both can be seen as biased.
I think 3 names given that is all agreed, and each FN picks a name from those 3.

I already said about the 2 FN. Given 3 agreed names and they each visit 1 of their choice.

Mokay. Your suggestions?

I'm actually struggling to think how this helps aside from avoiding PRs but explain that.

[talah]

Mokay. Your suggestions?

I'm actually struggling to think how this helps aside from avoiding PRs but explain that.

CDB
Luna
Titus
FA

I suggest that we go by these 4 names.
I don't believe that there are 2 FN's. If they fake a claim with another, then that's 3 scum found once revealed.

If you're talking about Friendly Neighbour targets then you need to get FAQ out of there since he's an easy strongman PR.
I don't care if scum are targets.

Because I don't believe that there are 2 BPs and I only think that both would exist if there was a Vigilante. That's my opinion on it.

So I think that one BP is lying meaning that IaI being Vig isn't as viable as it sounds.

So you're saying that (one of the BP claims and the vig) is likely scum.

[talah]

If you're talking about Friendly Neighbour targets then you need to get FAQ out of there since he's an easy strongman PR.
I don't care if scum are targets.

Well what other name? I'm thinking that 4 names will be better. Scum will look at trying to make the FN visit pool smaller, so we could possibly be relying on just 2 of these names alive tomorrow. At least with 4 it can pressure them to make a different kill rather than focus on the pool of choices.

CDB
Luna
Titus
Firebird
Performer
VeeGee

I'd include myself in there but Titus doesn't want me in there for some fucking unknowable reason.
We could consider allowing the FNs to cross-confirm but it's probably a bad idea. Not that I think both-scum is a particularly viable situation.

Is there some advantage to being a FN target? Like as scum or town you still have to confirm unless you go into 1v1 closer to lylo...

[talah]

Of course there is an advantage, it tells us if an FN is lying. Or at least leads us closer to a scum team.

No I mean is there any advantage for scum to being the target of a FN message, unless it's fake?
Obviously if you get a FN message I don't know if you're town. You still have to confirm the message if it came from town, even if you're scum.
Other option is it's scum confirming fake scum FN message.
Am I missing anything?

[talah]

Oh and okay, VeeGee can be removed as he already got a message apparently.

[talah]

Okay I'm just going to be happy with that list at this stage.

CDB
Luna
Titus
Firebird
Performer

Any objections to these being FN targets from FNs or Town?

[talah]

Possibly one less than that if we lynch one of them.

Actually add IaI in there as well? No reason for him not to be included imo.


Ima out for the night I've been here for too long tonight.

[talah]

Yeah FireBoy. The guy who replaced Sal and hasn't posted since and who might be lynched today.

[talah]

@tal you and Aj deserve medals for continuing on the “scum Performer” train when we’re almost 90 pages in, on d2. Seriously.

Why thank you. It's an "unfortunate" part of my personality. If I hear bullshit, I'll call it bullshit. If I see you dodging and think it's because you don't have the answer to a simple question, I'll keep asking and specifying what I want the answer to because there's always a damn good reason I ask specific questions.

Not sure if your scumread of CDB, me, and IaI is more insane, or if it’s more insane that you keep thinking I dodged answering you. You’re getting town nowhere.

CDB's been coming in basically bellyaching about the game and how stupid everyone here is. He's not interested in figuring out the game. He defended you strongly several times. Even if you're not scum I'd expect you to look at his reasons for making that defense (same as you're not even sniffing at the reasons IaI is townreading you). That's some of the reason I keep asking about your motivations for acting differently at the start of the game, and a lot of the other part is that you can't seem to explain how soft-claiming what you did was actually likely to draw a nightkill. But that was your entire explanation for acting out of your own meta. You're still struggling to match it. I see a lot of weak reasons for towning and a whole lot of information over analysis.

What’s your reason for scumreading me again?

Does the above answer your question?
See that's what we call a summary. Fairly easy for me because my reads have evolved. I'm not saying "I already answered it". I'm giving you an approximation of my mental state surrounding the game, which you can now go back and check to see if there are any inconsistencies. If there are, I will explain why.
That is what I am asking from you, as well. Thoughts and summaries that are natural and that I can look at, analyse and come to conclusions about the likelihood that you're scum or town.
Failing that feedback, I can still analyse, absorb and look at how your actions advance either scum or town.

Bunching IaI and me together because of this ridiculous claim issue…what is that truly about ?
I told you that whole role fishing ordeal needed to be dropped.
Instead you keep reitering a thousand times, what we already know for d2.

I'm not at all concerned about my questions leading to rolefishing when it comes to you, because mysteries of the type you present are not helpful to town at all. And you can go back and check with your buddy IaI to see if he thinks any other conclusion can be drawn except you're claiming VT. Sorry about stopping your attempt at crumbing fakeclaims which obviously would have held far greater advantage to scum than town.

What do we already know for Day 2?

The other part of the question I keep asking that you keep dodging is, how is it consistent that you say you decided to change your behaviour Day 2 "because you saw the no-kill", when it already changed Day 1 before that happened "because the wagon on you was getting too big"?
Just more bullshit IMO.

And I'm scumreading IaI because he fed me the hider crumb crap when I was asking him about your soft-claiming. Also because I was a fucking ridiculous vig target and my flip would have clarified almost nothing.
"Oh talah flips town gee that makes things a lot clearer for the remaining town."

Pull your socks up Performer and start making some sense in your posts.

[talah]

Talah looks very town too.

Hm, thanks. Why?

I am very upset that I am seeing alot of agreement among the town reads I have about reads. Not usually a good sign...

Do you expect town to always be at each other's throats? I don't get what you're saying.

[talah]

Of course there is an advantage, it tells us if an FN is lying. Or at least leads us closer to a scum team.

No I mean is there any advantage for scum to being the target of a FN message, unless it's fake?
Obviously if you get a FN message I don't know if you're town. You still have to confirm the message if it came from town, even if you're scum.
Other option is it's scum confirming fake scum FN message.
Am I missing anything?

I just figured out what I missed. Folks excuded from the FN target list can be explained away by a "Vig" shot from IaI.

Vedith - time for you to do work.

What's the FN target pool, what's the Vig target pool?

[talah]

Titus, do you remember in Gundam who your slot dayvigged before you replaced in?

If you don't I'm happy to tell you. But that was a bald-faced dayvig on town.

Do you think IaI's Vig claim on me makes any sense?

Titus, ^this please.

[talah]

Hey Firebringer:

Is your butt green and smells of doctor?

Just continuing the conversation I was having with your slot.

Vedith would approve.

[talah]

That's nice talah.
Btw no I don't intend to tell you why I think you are town.
And yes I expect town to be at each other's throats because from experience if town is aligned it's because scum want it that way.

Doesn't make much sense here. I'm attempting to run a tight ship where I can ask a question, get a sensible answer.

What do you think about townblocs then?

[talah]

Day 1 I tried to form one with Luna and AJ. Titus replaced in and attacked AJ (and defended Performer who I was heavily scumreading and whose wagon was migrated off just before deadline) but I'm still sort of reading her town. Titus is hard to read and I've only encountered her as scum.

There's no possible townbloc today unless I decide to strong-town my townreads and start advertising it. A townbloc always needs a protagonist, and members that are happy to be townread and trust the person reading them.

Did you find anything about the possible gambit from Salamence? (Hope he's okay btw.)

[talah]

I'd rather be in the lynch pool. I feel safer from NK that way :)

We need some feedback from Vedith. I don't feel like doing work but will if I need to prior to deadline.
There's a particular strategy concerning FN targets vs potential vig targets and we need to lock them down so that what happens tomorrow makes sense.

[talah]

Well, FN has their names to go with really. The watcher can decide which one to watch and day 3. Both (or same, or none) confirm if someone is town. From there, both FN confirm who they targeted and then the Watcher confirms if one is lying (other wise keeps quiet).

With the Vig. What are you thinking? I think that the Vig should shoot who they think is scummy. If there is only 1 kill without a reasonable answer we then pressure. However, as the scum could use the tactic of not shooting to mis lynch, I don't think that it would be confirmed scum. If there is a detective role to search, then IaI will be a good shout.

If you're claiming a watcher role offhand right now you need to clarify that asap so whe know what we're dealing with. We only have a couple of days to go today and that would be some bullshit to deal with.

[talah]

The issue is exactly what Firebringer said - you didn't make sense in your last post.

Introduced variables that didn't exist in the game until you said it.

[talah]

Yeah well we have what 2 RL days?

Frankly I'd be happy with just your FN and vig pools since you had the motivated plan.

[talah]

Titus: http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 4#p7299174

[talah]

Am i?

[talah]

You say some crap that doesn't make sense out of context.

FB questions you, I agree and specify a problem with it (whether that's the same as what FB spotted, idk).

You say, I'll come back and clarify.

I wait.

You come back and say "Well the first thing I wanna say is I won't be voting FB".

I say: "Am I?"
-(As in, I'm not voting FB as in cut to the chase as I don't care about rhetoric I care about what the fuck the point is you're getting to).

Sorry if that was unclear.

Do you have a vig pool (if you don't intend to vote IaI today) and FN pool? Please don't act dumb.

[talah]

Titus, do you remember in Gundam who your slot dayvigged before you replaced in?

If you don't I'm happy to tell you. But that was a bald-faced dayvig on town.

Do you think IaI's Vig claim on me makes any sense?

Titus, ^this please.

No. Maybe Jiffy? Relevance?

I do think his vig makes sense. I'm not 100% town reading you. Your interactions with my scumreads are weird.

Are you reading like out-of-thread posts to try to get a read on me?
"I DO THINK HIS VIG MAKES SENSE"

Explain that.

[talah]

Also answer the fucking questions in the post you just quoted.

[talah]

It's not happening like that AJ. What's happening is we're weighing the FN pool against the Vig pool because one is likely not the other.

FN pool gets message.

Vig pool prevents message being killed.

[talah]

Sorry Titus. I'm feeling a bit frustrated because it looks like we're swinging between PR lynch and derp-no-information-just easy lynch.

Please ignore my expletives.

Your predecessor in Gundam daykilled mastin by the way, after we were talking about his posts being awkward.
After that I correctly read you slot as scum when you replaced in because of that and especially because you started ramping / pre-empting the fact you'd be vigging me.

Then you came back next day and claimed it like a boss.
So I want your opinion on that today becaue if I'm to have any faith you're town I would want to think you'd have a pretty hawk-eye assessment of a similar strategy and the potential differences.

[talah]

My whole Gundam Seed argument has the point that since you were claiming Vig against me when you actually NKd me as scum, there must be a reason to have done that. If you don't think I was a terrible Vig target last night how about you say why.

Secondly, your role in that game was not multiple shot vig? It was scum goon iirc with one dayvig shot. Your predecessor used the dayvig and you claimed Vig against me as simply scum.

Why do that if you thought you could get away with it any other way?

Why does IaI target me as Vig?

[talah]

Switch your vote to IaI then.

[talah]

I'll lyncsh Firebringer at the end of the day if we need to - the Banana/Salamence/Firebringer slot hasn't brought much of anything to the table - I just think my own scumreads are better than yours.

Also jut to get it down - what are you thinking about Vedith's pools from:

Spoiler:

Okay

FN's go to
CDB
Luna
Titus
FB
Performer

If any lynched from here then add FAQ

Vig to

Vedith
Talah
VeeGee

I think that this plan is good enough.

I'd suggest a minor revision that FAQ should be allowed to receive a message since he has BP on him and will probably live to confirm it if he's shot. That differs from AJ only in that AJ has already received a message. I don't really care that Performer's not in the vig pool as IaI won't consider it anyway, and I don't care if scum receive messages as they still have to confirm. The pool is narrow enough as it is.

I'm also going to specify directly to you FAQ: I don't want protection tonight, if you were thinking about it. If IaI decides to kill me he'll have to explain that later.
(although thank you for townreading me yesterday to the point of making a correct decision there :D )


==
Proposed Pools Revision 1.23984679823659869
==

FN targets

CDB
Luna
Titus
FB
Performer
FAQ

Vig targets

Vedith
Talah
VeeGee

[talah]

"lyncsh"

lordy

[talah]

I shall shed a single diamond tear for the loss of such a charismatic and wonderful player.

[talah]

Right before I'm scum-vigged and then we can chat in the dead thread for the rest of the game anyway :P

[talah]

Switch your vote to IaI then.

No.

CDB / IaI /Performer. Take your pick. Those are the optimal lynches for today.

[talah]

We need pools for the FN but we need them to be as broad as possible while avoiding folks that might be killed cuz of PR.

That said, I forgot about strongman potential (was just looking at who gets killed who doesn't) and you're correct. You shouldn't be in the FN pool.

Which actually takes the pools back to what Vedith said with the caveat you won't be included regardless (copying and bolding from Vedith here, sounds fine to me)

FN's go to

CDB
Luna
Titus
FB
Performer

If any lynched from here then add FAQ

FAQ is not added as FN recipient due to strongman kill

Vig to

Vedith
Talah
VeeGee

==

Any other objections

[talah]

IaI could be a good asset if vig

Patently incorrect, but mokay.

[talah]

Summary on your Firebringer slot read?

[talah]

Scum are going to want their buddies in the pool if an FN is fake, so that's suspicious that Talah wants the FN pool to include scummy players.

No, that's not suspicious at all Titus and the failure to grasp the mechanics of the plan is something else that's worrying me about you at times.

If one FN is fake then I'm absolutely happy for them - at this stage of the game - to send another of their buddies a message. Because it flags 3 members of the scumteam as soon as the scum FN dies.

The important part is preserving the transmitting of the message. Not making sure it goes to town.

We're probably looking at a 3-scun 1-SK setup here.

Anyway /workpost

[talah]

No and no.

Vedith's got the balls to put himself into the vig pool and so do I. IaI has already stated he won't be vigging Performer. If he wants to waste a "vig" on me then he'd better have some better reasoning when I flip than "Your vote bounced from Performer to me and back to Performer" and "You were on the Zakk wagon". Vigilantes are supposed to be town-motivated. If he's not, he's probably not a vig.

The FN pool is already narrow enough. We exlude all PRs because it's a double-win for scum if they kill both a PR and a recipient of an FN message. So we force them to make a choice.

Regarding scummy players being in the FN pool, see my post directly before this (and several other on the matter). Need I remind you that we don't yet have a kill from scum to make a better judgement about this. Tomorrow should be more enlightening and I hope town will continue to reamain fairly circumspect about possible roles and claims, and making the best decisions that we can based on what we *know*.

The pool is fine as is unless anyone else has feedback.

[talah]

VOTECOUNT TWO POINT TIN

AJ THE EPIC - 3 - FA_Q2, I AM INNOCENT, CHANNELDELIBIRD,
FIREBRINGER - 3 - LUNA FOX, PERFORMER, TITUS,
VEEGEE - 2 - VEDITH, FIREBRINGER,
I AM INNOCENT - 2 - TALAH, SKYBIRD,
VEDITH - 1 - AJ THE EPIC,
TALAH - 1 - FIREBRINGER,

NOT VOTING: THEWORST, VEEGEE,

DEADLINE: ON HOLD AT 2 DAYS UNTIL REPLACEMENT FOUND

WITH 13 ALIVE IT TAKES 7 TO LYNCH

REPLACING VEEGEE UNLESS HE REAPPEARS

@Molla-mod - actually you might want to double check this entire VC because I don't think Firebird's voting me but I think I Am Innocent is

@IaI

Yeah CDB and Thezmon (slot I replaced into) were under heavy scrutiny. It was a super uncomfortable game and I try not to think about that one too much.

^I think you were responding to Performer here. He changed his avatar.

[talah]

Thank you kind sir.

[talah]

Why are you calling me Firebird?

I only got that nickname from Space Dandy.

Probably because I watch a decent amount of Firebat on twitch and we also have a Skybird in the game.

OMG, are you BP?!?!?!?!?!?

No, IaI's got a free shot on me tonight if he wants. There are better slots than mine to protect.

Also, yes. I am voting Veegee right now.

Day's on hold and we have this:

I Am Innocent Sep 16, 11:34am Oct 15, 02:44am 2 days 11 hours 79
ChannelDelibird Sep 23, 09:43am Oct 14, 04:38am 3 days 9 hours 70
VeeGee Sep 17, 11:46am Oct 08, 10:26am 9 days 3 hours 71

And this:
FIREBRINGER - 3 - LUNA FOX, PERFORMER, TITUS,
AJ THE EPIC - 2 - FA_Q2, CHANNELDELIBIRD,
VEEGEE - 2 - VEDITH, FIREBRINGER,
I AM INNOCENT - 2 - TALAH, SKYBIRD,
VEDITH - 1 - AJ THE EPIC,
TALAH - 1 - I AM INNOCENT,

With the exception that AJ's now moved across to you.

It's not exactly like you're voting your own counterwagon in some townly fashion, is it?

One question to you because I'd like to know what you think of the pools.
If VeeGee does end up being lynched what do you think of Vedith and I being alone in the whitelisted "Vig" pool?

[talah]

heh, welcome. Just woke up in the afternoon drinking coffee talah is here

[talah]

Eastern Aussie (AEDT). So it's 3.43pm here.

[talah]

I'm sort of getting to the point where I also don't feel like there's a point to dragging Day 2 out much longer.

My head's in the current state.
Firebringer and VeeGee have been touted as the 'options if we don't get a consensus' type lynches
I can see Firebringer being scum based on three folks filling the same slot not really doing much to develop reads
However I worry that it's just a repeat of Day 1 where we ended up sort of - safety lynching Zakk, in that it was going to be no great loss either way.

We could wait for the VeeGee slot to be filled and then I could refer the replacement to answer the question of whether his FN message says 'town' or not
Actually that's perhaps the best course but long grindy days aren't all that helpful


Your thoughts on the gamestate?
edit:^@Performer, although feel free if you like Titus

[talah]

No this is my main account, I have 2 alts iirc (Shillinger and True Ogre) and one hydra with mastin (Adaptive Heap).
None of these are supersecret.

[talah]

VOTE: Firebringer

4 votes apiece now.
I'd have voted VeeGee just now to equalise had Titus not switched her vote changing the balance.

[talah]

@Molla - Skybird is voting VeeGee / DGB slot.

@DGB

- hi and welcome!
Does the Friendly Neighbour message you received contain the word "Town" twice?

[talah]

Hey, I've already got that report in for not consistently yelling in pink.
I'd third the nom, but conflict of interest, y'know.

[talah]

Refresh me on your theory of where both shots went last night IaI.

And who you plan to kill tonight.


DGB we can probably get an extension if you're actually interested in helping to figure this out. But if we don't get an extension I'd like to know why you think Firebringer's town, and am more than happy to lynch IaI today.


Back after work.

[talah]

You already said you didn't care what the pool was as long as I was in it, despite that being highly incongruous with thinking that scum shot me.

Also I floated strongman/jk for the scumteam as a counter.
We have no scumkill.

And the pools are going to need to be revised since DGB isn't useless as opposed to VeeGee.

Also please show some respect to her.

[talah]

Oh wait u included a strongman yet nobody died N1 :roll:

That was because I believe the strongman was under suspicion Day 1 and either did not risk submitting the kill or was jailkept.

In any case like I said it was more of an example to show why killing claimed PRs without any evidence of scum's target/s is stupid.

I'd love to sit here and chat but it's 20 past 7 and I have to get ready for work.
Nice of you to become active finally.

[talah]

Oh wait u included a strongman yet nobody died N1 :roll:

That was because I believe the strongman was under suspicion Day 1 and either did not risk submitting the kill or was jailkept.

In any case like I said it was more of an example to show why killing claimed PRs without any evidence of scum's target/s is stupid.

I'd love to sit here and chat but it's 20 past 7 and I have to get ready for work.
Nice of you to become active finally.

So your theory is that we have JK. But according to the link below, a JK can't stop a Strongman:
wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Jailkeeper

We already talked about this. I guess when you said "Hm. Interesting.", what you actually meant was "Phrase that sounds interestedly town"?

talah, I don’t see how you’re scumreading CDB. It’s preposterous - it’s overpowered that there’s another FN in the mix, as well as a Town 2-shot Bp Doc…this is only a 14-player game.

See... this is why I don't understand this rabid push on claims when there was no nightkill last night.
Let me fix it for you.
Scum has a Jailkeeper and a Strongman and two goons.
Town has the roles that claimed and one other weak investigative role.

Balanced yet? Or scum-sided now?
Also Molla's no slouch with the combined roles (thanks to I think Salamence who posted this Molla game he'd played in).

1558 – I’m talking about the rest of us alive. In terms of disbelief and scratching my head, maybe you have different definitions on those things. According to you, if we have 2-shot Bp Doc, 2 FNs, then scum have a Strongman, 2 Goons, 1 JK? Hm. Interesting.

I happen to be townreading both AJ and FAQ for independent reasons.
I can't see Skybird's slot having claimed fake-claimed FN before Worst claimed it, and I can't see the point of Worst fake-claiming it unless it's a 2+2+10 multiball and both claims are somehow fake. I've mentioned this previously.

---
Anyway I far prefer IaI to Firebringer.

UNVOTE: Firebringer
VOTE: I Am Innocent

[talah]

Also Skybird was claimed since D1. That is important information too.

AJ also offered to claim Day 1. I don't know what you think he would have fake-claimed if he's scum.

If we're lynching PRs i think Aj's the lying one, possibly IaI, because what the hell both kills blocked on the same night? + Looking for who blocked his night kill.

I'm thinking along these lines:

The only answer is those 4 roles can't be town, and the obvious fake is most likely AJ/FAQ.

You're really not interested in thinking through things from a town perspective huh.
How about you iterate through the current claims and what you think about them.

Because at the least you should be thinking that one of AJ or myself is Town due to the no-kill.

And yet he would like to "Vig" me again tonight, despite the facts:
If AJ's scum then I'm not scum with AJ because he claimed to have protected Luna without any knowledge of investigative roles - unless IaI thinks the scumteam's me, AJ, Luna.
In the case that the missing scumkill went to Luna, then AJ's town (and Luna's town). In the case that the missing scumkill went to me, I'm town (and FAQ's town).
If FAQ's scum who protected me then then I am scum as well, and therefore AJs role is entirely plausible and he's likely town with no counterclaim.
If FAQ's town who protected me-scum then he would have had to have been targetted himself to account for the missing nightkill, otherwise AJ's town (the only other way of accounting for the missing nightkill).

Do you see how this doesn't make sense? Am I missing something?

---
edit:

I wont feel bad about IaI dying and i still have weird vibes about the fact that 2 kills were blocked...
Maybe give me some cherry pie and i'll think about it ^_^

[talah]

That was the most edible stuff we had back in my day.

Also there's a storm coming, I can feel it in my gimpy knee
*reclines in rocking chair on the porch and adjusts shotgun*

[talah]

We are not lynching a vig candidate. Sorry. I will no lynch first. Bailing on the leading wagon with less than a day left to lynch an in cced PR. Booo

You said if he vigged me you were going to vote-park him tomorrow.
He clearly intends to kill me tonight and claim it as a vig, and he has no reason and didn't yesterday either.
He was voting FAQ at the end of the day was he not?

Why do you now want to save this specific PR, now?

Spoiler:

VOTE: AJ

Two shot bp doctor is the most broken role ever in existence. Why AJ isn't turbo lynched, I have no idea. I would be tempted to fake cc but I am vla most of the day.

Combine that with a friendly neighbor, then scum can afford only one lynch or crosskill to win. That's absurd.

If mafia have a strongman, then the bp may be useless but in that case why include it?

We need pools for the FN but we need them to be as broad as possible while avoiding folks that might be killed cuz of PR.

That said, I forgot about strongman potential (was just looking at who gets killed who doesn't) and you're correct. You shouldn't be in the FN pool.

Which actually takes the pools back to what Vedith said with the caveat you won't be included regardless (copying and bolding from Vedith here, sounds fine to me)

FN's go to

CDB
Luna
Titus

FB
Performer

If any lynched from here then add FAQ

FAQ is not added as FN recipient due to strongman kill

Vig to

Vedith

Talah

VeeGee

==

Any other objections

If someone FNs FB or Performer or Vigs you, I am vote parking them

[talah]

The storm cometh.

[talah]

I don't see it... All I see from Talah is excuses on potential scum buddies. :<

Damn. I knew I made a mistake by making scum-excuses for 2 FNs, 2 Claimed protective roles and Luna, while being lukewarm on Firebringer and VeeGee (an oh hey, Zakk too), not voting you for two consecutive days and pushing weak-town CDB, IaI and Performer, and being highly suspicious of Titus.

Gotta hand it to you Vedith. Things change a lot if I flip scum, since I was hard-defending my buddies.

Why is IaI town?

[talah]

Please vote IaI, FAQ.

Literally if you think AJ's scum then you must think that both kills including IaI's on me hit either you or me.

If you think I'm scum, then AJ's town.

You saw the pools suggested if Firebringer was a compromise lynch. VeeGee / Me / Vedith. There was literally only one sensible option in there that IaI was guaranteed not to make.

I was fully expecting to die tonight if you respected my wishes to not be protected.

What do you want to do today considering I'm not supporting an AJ lynch, nor a DGB lynch?

[talah]

Okay I'll check out the VC and current possible support for IaI

[talah]

VOTECOUNT TWO POINT TOLF

FIREBRINGER - 5 - PERFORMER, AJ THE EPIC, TALAH, FA_Q2, LUNA FOX,
VEEGEE - 3 - VEDITH, TITUS, I AM INNOCENT,
I AM INNOCENT - 2 - DRIPPINGGOOFBALL, FIREBRINGER,
AJ THE EPIC - 1 - CHANNELDELIBIRD,

NOT VOTING: THEWORST, SKYBIRD,

DEADLINE: (expired on 2015-10-20 03:09:00)

WITH 13 ALIVE IT TAKES 7 TO LYNCH

===

UNVOTE: Firebringer
VOTE: I Am Innocent

===

VOTE: IaI

===

VOTE: FB

===

VOTE: IAmInnocent

===

Unofficial Votecount:

I AM INNOCENT - 5 - DRIPPINGGOOFBALL, FIREBRINGER, TALAH, LUNA FOX, SKYBIRD,
FIREBRINGER - 4 - PERFORMER, AJ THE EPIC, FA_Q2, TITUS,
DRIPPINGGOOFBALL - 2 - VEDITH, I AM INNOCENT,
AJ THE EPIC - 1 - CHANNELDELIBIRD,

NOT VOTING: THEWORST,

===

Worst needs to vote.
CDB's sitting on a vote he'll probably either lurk out, or bitch and moan about, and then lurk out
Vedith still wants to lynch VeeGee's slot (DGB) cuz "arrogant" despite the change in information from the slot occupation
Performer I guess is hard-townreading IaI but apparently not CDB for the same reason (ie, he's now suspicious of folks townreading him without good reason since I pointed that out)?
FAQ might switch, AJ might switch
Titus probably won't switch because she "hates lynching PRs" despite wanting to lynch the single BP claim prior to FAQ claiming and vowing to avenge me if I was vigged

IaI is at L-2

Don't let's make this a repeat of Day 1 where we failed to lynch Performer please townfolks.

[talah]

He would be easy-ish to catch out if he vigged either of me or you out of the pool that was floated but things have changed.
Problem is either way almost noone listens to the dead. You know this right.

Regarding AJ and TheWorst, I guess my main thrust there is that if AJ-town confirms Worst then Worst is town?

[talah]

I actually don't remember saying much about Worst at all.

[talah]

After you already shot me Day 1 you should have something better than that.

[talah]

Is my fucking username 'axle'? Why do you submit a derp-vig on me and promise to follow it up with another?

[talah]

Because ur prob scum?

Just because ur all salty about the shot does not make it a derp vig.

Why are you so afraid to die?

I put myself in the Vig pool along with Vedith on his suggestion and one actual sane vig option at the time - VeeGee.

I'm afraid to die? I was built to die with this role. The fact that there were *NO NIGHKILLS NIGHT 1* when *I WAS PROTECTED AND PRESSURING YOU AND PERFORMER* should tell you something about the setup.

The actual data analysis seems to be escaping you. Once again.

[talah]

Talah, one last question I have before someone hammers:

For most of the day you said I was scum faking the vig, and how I was going to pretend the NK was my vig on future nights. But now u seem to believe I am a vig?

No, I don't believe you are a vig. You are either scum claiming the kill so they can kill on future nights, or simply an SK.

[talah]

You're reading Titus' corrections.

[talah]

No, I don't believe you are a vig. You are either scum claiming the kill so they can kill on future nights, or simply an SK.

Ah, so now you are throwing SK around?
This gets better and better...
Question, why did you have an issue with me assuming a tracker when you have made up half a dozen roles?

Can you specify the roles I've "made up" please?

Because I floated strongman / scum jailkeeper for the scumteam as a counter to 2 x protective roles and 2 x FNs for town. As an example.
The other roles I've mentioned were to do with Performer's fake-crumbs - which he's unequivocally stated are fake.

As far as you assuming a tracker role, I've been aware you've been soft-crumbing some bullshit but figured you might know what you were doing? Except if you're just constantly alluding and not coming to conclusions it doesn't really help with anything.

[talah]

I put myself in the Vig pool along with Vedith on his suggestion and one actual sane vig option at the time - VeeGee.

That's a lie, I put you in it...
You actually crossed your name out of it, if I am correct?

We need pools for the FN but we need them to be as broad as possible while avoiding folks that might be killed cuz of PR.

That said, I forgot about strongman potential (was just looking at who gets killed who doesn't) and you're correct. You shouldn't be in the FN pool.

Which actually takes the pools back to what Vedith said with the caveat you won't be included regardless (copying and bolding from Vedith here, sounds fine to me)

FN's go to

CDB
Luna
Titus
FB
Performer

If any lynched from here then add FAQ

FAQ is not added as FN recipient due to strongman kill

Vig to

Vedith
Talah
VeeGee

==

Any other objections

[talah]

Because I floated strongman / scum jailkeeper for the scumteam as a counter to 2 x protective roles and 2 x FNs for town. As an example.
The other roles I've mentioned were to do with Performer's fake-crumbs - which he's unequivocally stated are fake.

You just chucked in some bullshit roles and tried to justify your reasoning for them.
There's no reason to think of these additional roles, the whole smoke without fire, eh?

And now you have decided to push on an SK possibility. This is so scummy it hurts. :<

Okay. Now you're not even thinking or are just scum.

[talah]

Like I said earlier I scumhunt by putting myself in others shoes and saying how would I act if I was them. For u, as town, I'd be happy to be vigged if I thought the vig was scum. 1 for 1 trades are always good for town.

This is an entirely bullshit statement.

[talah]

BAH!
Go get 'em townies <3 to all

[talah]

Holy cow that was tough.

Talah u were a real pain in my butt lol.

Hope nobody took offense to anything I said, it was mostly for show :)

Thanks mod for an interesting game :)

Absolutely, thanks heaps Molla.
The game was really interesting to try to figure out and the roles were extremely succinct and balanced to an extent that you wouldn't even consider playing and not knowing the setup. Good work!

IaI I'm really glad you were scum actually, and well played man. I wasn't looking forward to discussing why I though X and Y were bullshit play from town if you flipped that way.
You did your job really well and deserve the win.

<3 to all, I had fun, mistakes were made and even losing I enjoyed playing!
(even with you Vedith :P :cop: :dead: :twisted: :evil: :roll: :P :lol: )
(yeah I'm not turning on smileys but you get my drift heheh)

[talah]

Oh yes, very nice setup from BBMolla; and exactly why the setup spec was BS in the end.
All the claiming bothered me too, literally all of the PRs were revealed D2 minus Pignash's scum slot. And I was goddamn right saying the rest would be VTs, because it was.

Egh- I thought the setup spec was not so bad - at least I'll defend my own train of thought here - in that the "vig" could have been scum, and in at least *one* of the BP protective roles must have been genuine.
At that point you have a few options (pretty sure I mentioned this) - in that both are genuine, or one or the other is lying. (Both are scum is probably not a thing, and my own caution at that time rings alarm bells saying "lynch neither!!! Which is cool because we ended up lynching zakk - who fed me fake hope btw (you bastard!)).

When it turned out (much for the worse and bewilderingly mind you) that AJ was lynched, his flip should have brought focus and thought back to FAQ - and then the question revolves around why does he claim to visit me stopping the kill when we've got a claimed vig and FAQ claimed the protect first? Are both BP roles true?

Which is essentially what I was wondering when proposing a pretty easy setup to counter it and saying it wasn't implausible. (ie - "eg, scum jailkeeper and strongman".)
I mean setups don't have to deviate much from what you'd expect to consider that claimed role abc might all be true. --As we've just seen considering the scumteam was *two people* with an extra kill. That's actually fucking awesome.

So yeah. Hey Titus, I'm going to have to adjust what I think of your play now. I wasn't strongly scumreading you at all at the start and even after I was NKd, but I ended up thinking that way. Your fucking moonlogic (I'm going to assess this internally as jumping logic which has explanations but is often wrong and PUSHED REALLY HARD (although with inconsistencies and feelings of vector changes - see note a) ii) b~v(c)2)) is OP when you are town. I am "disappoint" that you didn't pick up on IaI potentially being a mafia Vig after he claimed a kill on me and express intent to continue to try to kill me whan that was exactly what happened in Gundam... I suppose we're all blind to our own meta tho to an extent :P)

That being said, good game played by scum. RIP Catboi, we never knew ye.

Lol. I played with catboi once before and he wasn't near as voluble and pushy as he was here.
I like his playstyle though and to all the replacees - you shouldn't have done so. Even if you're coming under heat or dealing with what you thiink is personal bullshit, there's always rational thought and argument that can turn Town v Town arguments, into Town considering they're arguing with Town dynamics.
If you just don't like a person, then take it to the mod.

[talah]

- in that both are genuine, or one or the other is lying. (Both are scum is probably not a thing, and my own caution at that time rings alarm bells saying "lynch neither!!! Which is cool because we ended up lynching zakk - who fed me fake hope btw (you bastard!)).

Timelapse brainfart here - it was after the zakk lynch and then entering Day 2 with still no nightkill info to go on with that I was considering AJ and FAQ could potentially both be town.

The questions and lines of reasoning / wanting to figure out the game from Skybird, were really awesome.

[talah]

my last reads post was pretty much perfect.

I kind of... forgot... oops?

LOL cheeky

[talah]

Should a turbovoted IaI.

I tried Titus, oh lord how I tried.

Also there's a storm coming, I can feel it in my gimpy knee
*reclines in rocking chair on the porch and adjusts shotgun*

Unfortunately the storm came from Town.
:'(

[talah]

Can't... quite... figure out... alt

[talah]

The distrust in the FN claim was mainly on you because you were a second FN claim LOL. From what I recall of all the games I've played in or speculated, I've only seens Goon and VT be duplicated. I personally never expected a 2nd FN to be true. Despite my high policy for protecting PRs , I kept second guessing you. Then when Aj flipped, I figured there's no way in hell he would've lied about you so you were confirmed town.

At that point, it was getting ridiculous how people were doubting Sky as the FN as she was the 1st FN.

100% correct - my exact train of thinking was that Skybird was basically confirmed (barring dayphase rolecop?) and there was no advantage to Worst / AJ couterclaiming when AJ claimed on behalf of Worst. Only option there was that AJ was scum (and there you see the power of the Friendly Neighbour because scum can't claim scum against the FN, unless they want to be lynched the next day).

...anyyyway, sorry for scumreading you but I guess I was thinking about it a lot Day 2 and then even in the Dead Thread.
(Please don't crumb shit as VT in a game with me in the future because it just leads to setup spec and if I think you're scum I'll go for your throat over it!)

@FAQ - Why protect IaI for two days in a row? Like even if you think he's the Town Vig - you've got to wonder what happened with the other Kill.

My thought was that a) he's scum and b) if he's not he's likely SK (maybe reverse those, it doesn't really matter) and c) how does it help town to protect him if we have even a weak investigative role?

Grrr :)
You did well blocking the kill Day 1 but it doesn't make sense having a success on that, that you townread the person you successfully blocked.

---
Anyway delayed reaction but I really did have fun.
<3

Sakura on a personal note I'm glad I had a strong townread on you this game and I am "disappoint my son" that we didn't get to form the you/me/AJ townbloc I was really liking.

[talah]

I'll try not to sir. I enjoyed seeing your changing thinking considering folks who strongly townread you may not always be town. Having an adaptive mindset is a great tool in your scumhunting arsenal, imho.

(That's "In My Humble Opinion", not "In My His (view of) Opinion")

:P

[talah]

I think Large Normals are far and few between at times. Not sure if that's the status quo for this though - when we were playing Molla's I swear there were 3 other threads running.