Touhou UPick 4 - [Aborted]

[Kilgamayan]

##Vote: Shadoweh

LAL

2 Day-Use spellcards, don't care about the risk of going kablooey, if scum want to nuke a townie that started D1 with three votes on them already they can go right damn ahead

Unhappy with Sakura for playing the role game so hard, particularly wrt Muffin and pie. Consider yourself lucky that Shadowy's so lurky!

[Kilgamayan]

No Yukari here, I only list good 2hus for these games.

Kilga, considering this is role madness what's wrong with playing the role game early when there's noting better to do?

There are better ways to play the role game than completely buying into TownMuffin based on the -4 thing. Borkborkbork has had a better approach to this. The -4 thing doesn't mean much to me in regards to Muffin's alignment. I don't even particularly care about the clarification that it's permanent. I think it's possible ScumMuffin could lie about that and get away with it.

(For clarification, I'm not saying Muffin is scum, only that casually tossing him into the town bin based on just the -4 is a bad idea. It's also something really easy for scum to do out of fear of making waves by questioning what looks like a perfectly logical conclusion on the surface.)

Sympathizing with pie over Sakura in their spat, Keyboardsmash's #175 is pretty much dead-on. tbh pie's reaction to #101 is basically what my reaction would have been except I might have not made my desire to replace out so public. Also things like #109 are kind of silly when pie was explicitly seriously voting for someone else at the time.

[Kilgamayan]

(Addendum: I actually also think TownMuffin could lie about the -4 thing being permanent and get away with it, and think it's plausible that he would.)

[Kilgamayan]

First two reasons that come to mind are "Getting immediate reactions" and "Trying to influence role ability/spell card decisions".

[Kilgamayan]

Although I should probably clarify that "I think it's plausible TownMuffin would lie about the -4 thing being permanent" is less meant in the sense of me knowing why you would do it and more in the sense that I don't think you'd be afraid to do it, because you'd also know you could get away with it.

[Kilgamayan]

Presumably a reaction to GiF's guessing game.

I'm guessing Ran myself, as obvious an answer as that seems.

[Kilgamayan]

Oh wait, no, I'm an idiot, GiF is probably Shinmyoumaru.

[Kilgamayan]

Sky Paladin: Are you actually positing a Sakura/Pie scumteam?

my first thought is to quicklynch Kilga because he said Yukari is a bad Touhou. my second thought is to ask Kilga why he's still voting Shadoweh over Sakura Hana and what he thinks about the defenses that have been made for her so far. re: "Sympathizing with pie over Sakura in their spat": does this mean you think the argument is scum/town?

* Sorry, I misspoke. Should have said "worst".
* Voting Sakura is pointless, her claim about D2 stuff cements her as a impossible lynch today barring a massive meltdown. Also Shadowy is a dirty dirty OMGUSer on top of admitting to being a lurker.
* What defenses? It's possible I missed something because this game went from 0 to tl;dwtr in less than 48 hours, but while I've seen a bunch of people say they think she's town, I don't think I've seen anyone try to publicly justify it aside from this non-reason from Shadowy.
* I can buy into ScumSakura/TownPie pretty easily, yes. On top of the earlier stuff, the snipe in #196 is completely needless and can't possibly serve as anything other than a demoralization attempt.

Does your super-hatedness go away?

Not yet convinced I want to talk about this, sorry.

[Kilgamayan]

You can ask whatever you like, I don't hold it against you or anything. Frankly I'm surprised it took this long for anyone to get curious enough to ask.

Anyway, to answer your question, yes.

[Kilgamayan]

To be honest, I kinda doubt it, but I suppose it's possible.

[Kilgamayan]

Shadowy you can't possibly have written either of those comments about me and truly meant them. <_< I don't believe for a second that Town You would actually take #253 seriously. I feel dirty voting for the same person Sakura is voting but the day is still young and it's insulting that you'd think getting angry at me in this fashion would actually accomplish anything.

[Kilgamayan]

I feel dirty voting for the same person Sakura is voting

What

I'd rather be voting you than Shadowy, but voting for you is 100% useless until Day 2 brings about the resolution of your earlier claim.

[Kilgamayan]

A Feysal vote feels really lazy right now.

[Kilgamayan]

I mean, if Feysal died right this instant, I wouldn't shed a tear, but that's a task best left to either a vig or the mod.

[Kilgamayan]

It's more that (a) I don't think Feysal is going to change their posting habits based on that vote, and (b) a Feysal vote implies you've seen nothing else voteworthy in the 270-odd posts since the game began.

I grant that I could very well be wrong about (a) - I still have little-to-no clue what the ethos is like here, so maybe lurkers do get jump-started by getting voted - but I'd be surprised if I was.

[Kilgamayan]

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[Kilgamayan]

Borkborkbork: It was still mostly silly in #253 because in every game we play together I am obligated to either hate Shadowy's guts or immediately decide she's town and go all BFF. There wasn't anyone else I cared to vote at that juncture, so I had my fun and went on my merry way. It got serious when I woke up and found she had wigged out over stuff that I had made pretty obvious was not serious; the post you quoted was in reaction to that. (I didn't mention it at the time, but I'm also not sure what is meant by Shadowy saying "I'm increasingly displeased with Kilga for deciding to stick with a joke vote well past the expiration date once it started to look easy to keep it there"; surely this cannot be referring to Shadowy's wagon, as Sakura and Keyboardsmash jumped on after I went to bed?)

Kagami: Duly noted. Just one more thing for me to silently grind my teeth about, I guess. Not that I begrudge you holding onto that vote after how many words were used to produce so little content in #301.

[Kilgamayan]

Shadowy already claimed she can't vote today if she wants spellcards tomorrow.

[Kilgamayan]

also Kilga, how strong would you say your scumread on Shadoweh is?

Reasonably? It's worth a vote right now, but :day1:, it's hardly anything concrete. I could be swayed other places. Like Feysal after that giant wall of nothing. Claiming you also couldn't tell #253 wasn't serious makes me super sad, though, I've never used "dirty dirty OMGUSer" in anything other than a facetious capacity and I would expect the two of you of all people in this game to know this (plus her vote would have been on me for lolreasons instead of anything actually serious). The "admitting to being a lurker" accusation would be a gigantic dick move if serious and would also ignore the fact that Shadoweh, uh, hasn't actually been a lurker at any point this game. I think all of this should have been obvious at the time.

Sky Paladin: Can you give me a concrete feeling about Sakura/pie if it's not scum/scum?

Not interested in voting either !science or Relentless, I see a lot of myself in both of them.

[Kilgamayan]

:salt:

This is what you get for expecting fans of the Scarlet Sisters to not be annoying 8) Maybe next time you'll listen to me and my Objective List Of Shit 2hus before trying to throw shade in Yukari's defense

[Kilgamayan]

(The above is 100% facetious and not any sort of honest or serious commentary on any players in this game or whatever silly hats they prefer)

[Kilgamayan]

A thought occurs that I don't remember if anyone else specifically articulated it already.

Muffin, why did you use your -4 to support the idea of your role all-but-proving you to be town when you knew of at least one powered-up vote role (your own)? Did you think there couldn't possibly be another one?

[Kilgamayan]

Feysal: Is !science town or scum? Is pieguy town or scum?

[Kilgamayan]

why did you use your -4 to support the idea of your role all-but-proving you to be town

ignoring whether or not i actually thought i was "proving" myself town, it

is

one of the many reasons my role doesn't make sense as a scum role - i don't actually care to discuss this unless it's actually a sticking point for someone, in which case i suppose i would be perfectly fine writing a wall explaining why you're completely wrong about theory if you disagree

Enlighten me, then. I've never been great at the role game, but I don't see how -4 is a gamebreaking benefit when there are multiple other players with superpowered votes.

[Kilgamayan]

##Unvote: Shadoweh
##Vote: Feysal

Forgot to do that before I left.

[Kilgamayan]

I agree it generally makes more sense as a town role than a scum role; it was mostly the innocent child comment that made me raise an eyebrow. Acknowledging that such was facetious removes a large chunk of my concern, leaving only a couple of minor detail disagreements - I don't think it's as late-game invincible as scum as you seem to think it is - that aren't really important right now. I'm fine with dropping it for the time being.

[Kilgamayan]

Blame FakeGod for restricting choices to Windoze 2hu, I was all set to give a PC-98 list this time around and I absolutely would've listed Elly just for you. <3

[Kilgamayan]

Man, digging up motivation for this game is already super difficult.

Can I assume there's some site/player meta reasoning I'm not privy to that we're all hunky-dory with Gaiden doing nothing of use all game? The likes of Katsuki and Chocola aren't exactly getting the same amount of positive attention.

Kagami, why the unvote?

[Kilgamayan]

Also, as much as my heart wants Muffin to be scum, I have to admit that Shadowy's responses to his posts are not terribly impressive and that I similarly have no idea who Borkborkbork thinks is town or scum.

[Kilgamayan]

Kagami: I'm not so sure. I think Relentless's assessment is pretty accurate.

Muffin: Why no Katsuki in that pool?

Shadowy: It was more a commentary on your alignment than his.

[Kilgamayan]

Those must be some pretty low standards. <_<

Shadowy: Maybe it's because it's too early for brain functions, but I'm afraid I don't understand your question.

[Kilgamayan]

(This is commentary on Katsuki's performance so far in this game and not on his abilities as a player or on him in general as a person etc etc)

[Kilgamayan]

Oh, I meant similarly to Muffin's sentiments about Borkborkbork (read: not know what bork actually thinks of anyone), not similarly to anything said about you. Sorry for the confusion.

[Kilgamayan]

What does Gaiden need time for?

[Kilgamayan]

Oh, I meant similarly to Muffin's sentiments about Borkborkbork (read: not know what bork actually thinks of anyone), not similarly to anything said about you. Sorry for the confusion.

You don't have to be so formal with me Kilga. :p I'm trying to figure out what I'm doing wrong from your PoV, other then being erratic and weird.

Trying to make Muffin go away by yelling at him soured me on you again, to be honest (as much as I'm sure it didn't bother him one bit). I thought his questions were valid and it looked like you were trying to shut them down rather than answer them.

Anyway, of the people currently with votes on them, I'm most willing to vote for Feysal (natch), bork (almost Feysal 2.0 at this point, also why is your vote on pie), or Shadowy. I'd also have zero issue with a Gaiden lynch if that became possible. Not particularly interested in other lynches today except for maaaaybe !science - I'm starting to change my mind a bit here given the continued non-contribution plus telling Dormio to shove it in response to the vote. The one major issue I have with this is that I assume a !science lynch will be pretty heavily resisted unless the SDM hood green-lights it, and I just plain don't care enough to try until that happens, so I'm not going to waste the energy thinking about it more than this.

Chocola and Katsuki are better left to a vig or the mod as far as I'm concerned.

[Kilgamayan]

I thought he was scum from this

There is a reason I asked for Chocola not to be lynched this day phase

????????????????????

whatever care meter has hit zero i'm going to bed

[Kilgamayan]

I'm not sure how Relentless' flip has a bearing on Chocola's alignment.

The second thing is granted, though.

[Kilgamayan]

Oh wait, that's your theory because of the RVS voting thing, never mind.

[Kilgamayan]

whoops had to go to work

I don't put much (well, okay, any) stock in RVS tells, but I can see Sky Paladin doing so and genuinely believing it so I don't think any less of him on the scummy scale for it.

[Kilgamayan]

What is preventing you from playing the game in the thread, anyway?

[Kilgamayan]

neighbourhoods are where all the cool kids hang

i can tell you were never popular in mafia school

;_;

[Kilgamayan]

Chocola posts 4 in a row expecting Shrine Maiden folks to deluge the Mafiascum folks in an unending tide of forum posts.

Prims, Dormio, we have failed our homeland

bork: Why not provide justification for reads while providing said reads ?_? I don't see why any given player needs their teeth pulled in order to explain their thought process (as much as this disease has apparently stricken a third of the player list)

[Kilgamayan]

I'll vote Chocola if I have to, I'd just rather see a forced ffery replacement instead.

[Kilgamayan]

Maybe if enough of us asked for it...

I'm having a hell of a time reading the Feysal/bork back-and-forth without my brain turning into mush. Can each of you explain why you're voting for the other to someone that wasn't a part of the argument?

[Kilgamayan]

Okay, near as I can tell Feysal is voting for Bork because Bork was townreading pie based on tone and Feysal thinks this is a bad idea. Is that really all there is to it? That's, uh, kinda underwhelming.

Bork's seems to be more based in misrep irritation (and presumably his previous Feysal suspicion of unknown origin), which is slightly more sympathetic but still not particularly impressive.

So I don't like either of these votes, and I don't like that I don't like either of them, and bluh. I wish I could just vote everyone again like last game. Also, tangentially related to this is that every time Feysal fails to impress is another instance of Kagami sliding slightly down my happy list, since the total vote drop looks more and more like the end result of a vote that was made just to park on an easy target in the first place. Haven't forgotten about this, either.

[Kilgamayan]

Wait, is Chocola NNR?

[Kilgamayan]

With Kagami having a triple vote, that's L-1, yes?

[Kilgamayan]

Well then.

In that case, can we get an ffery replacement? <_<

[Kilgamayan]

Feysal: I'm afraid I still can't see what you mean. Can you cite specific examples in links to posts?

[Kilgamayan]

Kilgamayan's 179 confuses me. What is it you dislike about Sakura here?

Making alignment decisions based on claimed role details. It's something I've found scum are more apt to do than town, because scum aren't going to be nearly as skeptical about role claims as townies are.

No Yukari here, I only list good 2hus for these games.

Kilga, considering this is role madness what's wrong with playing the role game early when there's noting better to do?

There are better ways to play the role game than completely buying into TownMuffin based on the -4 thing. Borkborkbork has had a better approach to this. The -4 thing doesn't mean much to me in regards to Muffin's alignment. I don't even particularly care about the clarification that it's permanent. I think it's possible ScumMuffin could lie about that and get away with it.

(For clarification, I'm not saying Muffin is scum, only that casually tossing him into the town bin based on just the -4 is a bad idea. It's also something really easy for scum to do out of fear of making waves by questioning what looks like a perfectly logical conclusion on the surface.)

Sympathizing with pie over Sakura in their spat, Keyboardsmash's #175 is pretty much dead-on. tbh pie's reaction to #101 is basically what my reaction would have been except I might have not made my desire to replace out so public. Also things like #109 are kind of silly when pie was explicitly seriously voting for someone else at the time.

Given the -4 was confirmed by vc, how are you thinking zmuffin could fake this going forward?

There's obviously nothing that can be faked about what's present in the vote counts. What I was saying was that I think Muffin (as either alignment) could have been lying about the -4 being permanent - maybe it's some other number on Day 2 - because he thought he could get away with lying about it being permanent through a future :words:y explanation as to why he wasn't telling the truth (or possibly just by acting as surprised as everyone else). It's not a likely scenario, but it's possible. The ultimate point was less about Muffin's alignment and more about why it was a bad idea to just shut off one's brain and assume TownMuffin.

[Kilgamayan]

Sorry for the disappearance, my body and mind more or less crashed yesterday evening and I got distracted by sweatymandrama and handegg tonight. (Sorry about the Bengals, Bork.)

Muffin: Can you detail why you'd vote ffery('s slot) over Bork at this point? I find it a little disquieting that you'd spend so much of the day running Bork up only to veer off toward the empty slot at the end of the day. Particular since I can't see a clear reason for that mindset in what you've said so far:

i didn't really like bork's recent catch-up, but i'm not sure how comfortable i'd be with lynching him D1. i suppose the biggest issues i have with him atm is that, even with the reads list he gave, i'm not really sure how he arrived at those reads and that i'm not really seeing any sort of game-solving so much as questions that feel rather shallow (or easy to ask). i also don't really like the whole "try it" thing with regards to noddy, mostly because with a 4x voter expressing willingness to vote him and noddy with his goon squad behind him, it wouldn't actually be all that difficult to make his lynch happen - that sort of grandstanding felt a bit like false bravado in an attempt to come off as sort of indifferent-antipathetic town or something

that said, a chocola town flip would be pretty turd, which is the only reason i'm a little hesitant

i don't even really think bork is a bad lynch, i would just feel meh if he flipped town (doubly so if chocola is scum)

The first quote offers hesitation with no explanation, and the second and third seem to be more or less the same opinion of both slots.

---

@Kilgamayan have we played together before? Your avatar looks familiar (probably because GiF) but I don't think we have.

You were in Touhou Upick 3 very briefly, as I recall? I don't think you showed up until after I died, though, and it's the only game other than this one I've ever played at this site.

Feysal: I'm afraid I still can't see what you mean. Can you cite specific examples in links to posts?

I'm not quite sure what you want examples of. If you mean Bork questioning me for projecting my thoughts on his play, there are posts #306, #480 and #716.

I'm mostly looking for something related to "his approach to reading me". I thought it was something other than what you're linking to there, but maybe I'm wrong? If it actually is, though, I think it would kind of silly to publicly admit how one approaches a certain user when one is scum and then turn around and apply that exact same strategy in another game soon after, because obviously it's going to be fresh in said user's mind.

Kilgamayan,

You seemed to want Chocola replaced pretty badly rather than modkilled. Why?

Empty slots are lame, modkills are lame. Replacements aren't optimal but they're vastly superior to the other two things, and the issues are largely muted by being an early-game replacement.

[Kilgamayan]

At work, quick post. Having a bit of a hard time fully parsing the direction the Muffin/ffery discussion has taken since it seems to be a lot more player-meta-based than the earlier stuff of Muffin hashing ffery's reads out line by line.

Scum reads, in descending order

* Feysal: All the other stuff plus a continued lack of proactiveness. Disappearing once the heat got turned up on Bork and ffery has not escaped my notice, either.
* Bork: As mentioned before. I've seen nothing recently that has really swayed me to change my opinion.
* Shadowy: ^
* Gaiden: lol

Speaking of Gaiden, I am also willing to vote anyone else that has been publicly useless or near-useless (off the top of my head, priorities go !science > Katsuki >>>> GiF but I want to take another look at !science when I get home tonight so this may change).

Also would be willing to vote for Muffin, for as much as I'd bet a large sum of money that it wouldn't take. Admitting that the Chocola-over-Bork decision was pure risk/reward doesn't sit well with me at all.

Hooray being willing to vote for half the game! And this is without taking a second look at Keyboardsmash to see what all the fuss is about there. Where'd my mass-vote role go?

[Kilgamayan]

I've also forgotten Sakura existed, whoops. That's largely due to not wanting to spend the energy rereading her in-depth until her claim about Day 2 resolves, though.

[Kilgamayan]

Dear Kilgypoo,

Why are you willing to vote players you think are "useless" over players you actually have some sort of scum read on?

This is an unfairly-worded question, because uselessness is scummy by default and a self-making case. You've been pretty solid in my eyes aside from the jerk away from Bork onto the empty slot, while the likes of Gaiden, !science, Katsuki, and GiF have been useless for the entire day, so I'd rather see them go instead of you if given the choice.

[Kilgamayan]

@kilgy

is there a reason you didn't include thd in the list of "useless" players?

He has voted a few times and at least tried to substantiate his opinions rather than spending most of the game threadshitting and not offering opinions even when directly asked.

Kagami: p. sure Relentless claimed conditional vig a few days ago, so there's that. (This was after the time he implied it and then denied it early on in the game.)

[Kilgamayan]

Quick though: what happened to !science's hated status? Hated + Dormio vote + Bork x8 vote = 10, not 9.

[Kilgamayan]

Well, if nothing else, I think that eliminates speculation about Bork choosing !science because Dormio was already voting there.

Time to check Bork interactions, I guess.

[Kilgamayan]

Okay, quick reread has me on-board the "Kill Keyboardsmash" train. His one mention all day of Bork is in #819, and it's contained within a shot taken at !science's vote for Bork. The sketchy support of a Feysal lynch in the same post is worth noting as well. There is also the !science votepark for a large part of the day (I'm guessing this is why Muffin asked me why I didn't include him in my list of useless players) that is scummy independent of Bork.

I'd also now endorse a Sky Paladin lynch; his one mention of Bork is in #589, and it's a total non-committal throwaway comment buried in a pursuit of Relentless. Bork was enough of a spectacle on Day 1 that Sky really should have formed an opinion somewhere along the line.

Fey has claimed and her role looks reasonable with a good hustle option that should be exploited at the right time. I will find a way to share this with the right person.

When did Feysal claim anything?

Bork doesn't mention either of these two much. There's #198 where Bork asks for Muffin to substantiate a town read on Keyboardsmash, #632 where Sky Paladin is arbitrarily town and Keyboardsmash is arbitrarily neutral with a possibility to move into the town group, and #855 with a non-explanation for why Sky Paladin is a weaker town read. Nothing substantial here whatsoever.

Will likely look at Keyboardsmash and Sky Paladin interactions tomorrow, but it's already past midnight and I need to be up in 5 hours for work.

[Kilgamayan]

Oh hey, I completely missed that.

[Kilgamayan]

Thank you for answering the question, Sky Paladin.

[Kilgamayan]

Eh, I could see Bork focusing on us if he did actually have a choice. We're unknowns on a site that is heavily into player meta, and he did say he wasn't afraid of the "meta circle".

[Kilgamayan]

Tenshi spent practically the entire game voting for Kaori, thank you very much. Don't blame the celestial just because everyone else is too thick to listen!

[Kilgamayan]

And yes, discounting the recent 6/2 Free! game with unorthodox game mechanics where my public interactions with my buddy were little more than token, Sword Girls was the last time I drew scum. That game was also literally 3.5 years ago, so who knows how much it's worth as a reference point now.

[Kilgamayan]

14. Kilgamayan
you guys ever check this shit out? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZzVZ1yF ... FD822F5718
this is the fucking lord's work right here.

oh christ

(If I actually influenced your decision to play Mafia in any fashion, I am truly, truly sorry.)

[Kilgamayan]

Two, and that's because I was primarily looking for people that lacked interactions with Bork. He was enough of a spectacle over the course of the day that I'd expect any genuine townie to form a substantial opinion about him and/or discuss his place in the possible wagons of the day, and neither Keyboardsmash nor Sky Paladin did any such thing. (I think everyone missed/ignored the Sky Paladin notes. It sure seems like Sky Paladin did, at least.)

What I am irritated with myself is not yet looking at interactions between those two yet.

[Kilgamayan]

I didn't even get to do RP Miko spam

I have so many more images than last time

[Kilgamayan]

[22:28] <@Reisen-Udongein-Inaba> >Top 4 suspicions were three scum and Shadowy
[22:28] <@Reisen-Udongein-Inaba> Great success

Maybe I should have actually paid attention to Prims in retrospect.

[Kilgamayan]

[22:28] <@Reisen-Udongein-Inaba> >Top 4 suspicions were three scum and Shadowy
[22:28] <@Reisen-Udongein-Inaba> Great success

Maybe I should have actually paid attention to Prims in retrospect.

where does all the cool touhou chat happen on IRC these days?

You get the occasional bout of Mafia discussion activity in #motktown on irc.ppirc.net, but the channel is mostly used these days for bitching about misfortunes in fantasy football and laughing at misfortunes in real football.

Which may be right up your alley regardless.

[Kilgamayan]

Petition to change the game state from "Aborted" to "Aborkted"

[Kilgamayan]

PRIME TIME BENGALS are actually making a game of it! I'm impressed.

[Kilgamayan]

SKY

tbf he could only shoot people in his hood

unless I'm reading it wrong

I think it's more a matter of using that shot at all. The day ended with three scum claimed; shooting ffery means you need to be 50000000000% sure she's the fourth and final scum, because otherwise you're bringing scum one step closer to whatever dayrush plan they had.

In fact, if Sky hasn't killed ffery, the Katsuki rush would have been irrelevant in regards to action resolution; there would have been one more town than scum alive when you lynched Gaiden.

[Kilgamayan]

FREE MY PC-98 BRETHEREN
LET MY MIMA GOOOOOOOOOOO

Who?

SKY

tbf he could only shoot people in his hood

unless I'm reading it wrong

I think it's more a matter of using that shot at all. The day ended with three scum claimed; shooting ffery means you need to be 50000000000% sure she's the fourth and final scum, because otherwise you're bringing scum one step closer to whatever dayrush plan they had.

In fact, if Sky hasn't killed ffery, the Katsuki rush would have been irrelevant in regards to action resolution; there would have been one more town than scum alive when you lynched Gaiden.

Also, with gaiden having scumclaimed, you already know the utility of the shot.

Also true.

[Kilgamayan]

joining mafia was a mistake

[Kilgamayan]

Is there gonna be a separate thread for 4.5 signups? Are we even allowed to do such a thing? I've yet to actually pay attention to the Queue system mechanics.

[Kilgamayan]

/prein touhou upick 4.5

Out of curiosity, have you looking into the franchise since Upick 3? I remember you saying you had no idea what the flavor was about.