Mini 1782 Game Over

[Ircher]

Vote Count - Day 3 VC #2

Titus (1) - FA_Q2
Mhsmith (0) -
Huntress (1) - Rosh
Froot (0) -
Johnny (0) -
FA_Q2 (0) -
Garmr (0) -
Plain (1) - Garmr
Lowell (0) -
Rosh (1) - Lowell
No Lynch (0) -
Not Voting (6) - Mhsmith, Titus, Johnny, Huntress, Froot, Plain

Deadline

Day 3 will end on May 13 8:30 PM EST or in (expired on 2016-05-13 20:30:00).

Lynch Threshold

With 10 alive, it takes 6 to lynch.

Mod Notes

None

[Titus]

Roshar, I'm a little concerned about you not moving your vote so early. Yet, I'm struggling to find a reason that I agree with in your ISO. I think Huntress is scummy though but I am not wanting to vote something that the only person pushing it is giving reasons that make me feel uneasy. Can you rephrase or rearticulate your push on Huntress without quotes (I'll ask for verification if necessary)?

[Huntress]

That first quote relates to my initial reads, made after a first read through the thread. The second quote comes from the post where I followed up on all my reads, not just that one, after checking back on stuff, reading some ISOs, and looking at the wagons. Your jumping between the wagons was one of the things that put me off them. In fact, at the time of my post you were on neither of them.

You're saying you found Clumsy suspicious on your first read. Then after you started looking at individual players and wagons, you started backing away. That is exactly what I just described. After looking at the wagon, and realizing you were late, you backed away.

No, that is not what you described. What you did, and repeated here, was to claim that I changed my reads after "realizing you were late". That is simply not true.

Yes. And I did. So?

Again, you say you don't like Max's posting but based on the wagon (me), you back off again.

You weren't the only one on the wagon, and I don't recall backing off of Max at all.

Nope. The reluctance was me not wanting to join either of the two wagons which you were pushing when I had a strong read on you and only weak reads on them. I did not refuse to vote so don't try to pretend that I did.

You refused to vote until the last day. And how convenient to try to avoid both lynches using wagons as the reason. "I don't like Clumsy's wagon" and "My main scum read is on Max' wagon, my hands are tied".

Please quote where I refused to vote as this is the second time you've claimed that. Yes I would have preferred a different lynch but had already said where I would be moving my vote, and did so before the end of the Day. And I never said anything like your last phrase.

But you barely pushed any reads. Your scum read on me for instance. It was me who pushed you to make a case. Otherwise you would have been more than happy to keep it at, "gut read" and "voting players based on playstyle".

I believe it was me that initiated that conversation, when I asked you a question in 1121. You then asked for examples so I gave some. It certainly didn't require any pushing on your part.

It's so obvious to me that your motive wasn't in trying to divert the lynch.

That's exactly what my motive was. To get a lynch that had a higher chance of hitting scum.

Didn't you read the dialogue between Max and I? That and his selective scumhunting, along with my read on the page 54 tussel between Lowell and yourself, tipped the balance.

Yes, I read the dialogue between Max and yourself. Several times, actually. And I still don't see how he became your number 1 scum read. Why are you providing it as a reason that because I moved down your list, it made Max more scummy? That is not the way town reaches conclusions about players. That is scum trying to maintain a list.

Believe it or not, town makes lists too. No, it didn't make Max more scummy; he did that himself. I've already explained why I lowered you on my list although in view of your posts toDay, and the misinformation they contain, I'm thinking I may have been wrong about that.

Vote: Roshar

[Roshar]

With regards to the first part, I'll explain a little later.

Huntress replaces in mid-day 1 and has a lot of catching up to do. When she does, she doesn't engage with any of her scum reads. Keeps promising she'll do better. Keeps promising she'll re-read her slots and clarify. Keeps promising she'll provide reasons. But then she disappears. She comes in every 2 days or so. Let's break it down.

-She replaces in on the 9th of April.
-Catches up by the 13th. Throws three empty scum reads
-Rechecks some stuff' on the 16th where she explains only one scum read (in one sentence) and her second scum read, Froot, she couldn't remember why (she still can't remember why until today). It's like she picks the two players she knows aren't going to get lynched. Her scum read on Clumsy is retracted. When he's at L-5.
-Pops back on the 18th, because I started questioning her.

A serious case of active lurking.

In all of her 9 content posts in D1, she mentioned Clumsy and Max scummy at some points. She withdrew her Clumsy scum read when he was at L-5 because of his wagon. She shows preference in lynching Maxous as she didn't find his posts town like his predecessor (when choosing between lynches). Yet she doesn't vote him, with less than 24 hrs left in the day. Until I start cornering her about it. In which case she reluctantly votes, reminding us time and time again that she really doesn't want to do this. She's so adverse to lynching Max, that she's willing to have a flash lynch on....Lowell. With less than 24 hrs left. When more than half the players at that time were either replacing out (shaddow and mav) or inactive. That would have been impossible. And she knew that. She knew there was no way in hell that the lynch could be diverted. She was just trying to look like she didn't want the Max lynch.


All of this active lurking and now, she's promising to stay for the entirety of the last day (D1). If she wanted to actually make a difference in the lynch pattern, she would have attempted to pursue her scum reads in the 10 days that she had in the game. Not post once every 2-3 days. And now she's trying to pretend like she gonna try her best to help with like 20 hrs left in the day.

[Roshar]

I'm so surprised, Huntress.

[Roshar]

I'm so genuinely surprised you'd vote me. About as genuine as your attempt to divert the lynch D1.

[Roshar]

minimal explanation, maximum effect and clear reads on players

Minimum explanation does not equal maximum effect. All you succeed in doing is getting people to glaze over your posts. Ideal if you're scum, anti-town if you're town. I'm not going to allow myself to ignore you this game b/c of how unpleasant it is interacting with you.


Interesting that you and Huntress have the same reason why you think I'm scummy (I'm trying too hard).


Does your description of Huntress' play style fit someone who would think:

"well, I don't know wtf is happening but at least if I vote Lowell I'll be able to hem and haw afterwards about how unhelpful he was and I won't take the blame."

Or do you believe as town that she genuinely thinks you're scummy?


D1, the only mention of even finding you possibly scummy was here:

Not liking Lowell's eagerness to end the Day but I'm not sure that he'd be so blatant about it as scum.

End of D1 she was willing to divert

two

lynches at L-2 to try to lynch you instead. And this is her

only

stated reason why ^ The fact that you didn't even bother commenting on this is ridiculous.

D2 she puts you as number two scummiest player, which is super interesting. Why weren't you number 1 scummiest? This is the post:

In the page 54 tussel between

Lowell and Roshar I actually think Roshar's version of events sounds more likely

. This moves Roshar down my list a bit.

A plain farmer's vote switch from Lowell to FA_Q2 in 1403, coming as it did after FA_Q2 voted Lowell in 1395 made me wonder if

apf had been distancing from Lowell earlier.

I have next to no problem with Froot Loop's posting in Day two so I'm dropping her from my scum list for now. I'm still curious about what gave me that initial scum read but to find it would mean rereading Day one so that is going to have to wait.

I'm going to look into mhsmith a bit more as something seems off there, although it may just be playstyle.

My lynch pool is currently Max, Lowell, Rosher, apf, in that order.

Vote: Maxous

She mentions you twice 1) Between you and I, my events are what she buys. 2) Apf is distancing from you. She didn't provide 1 reason why she thought max was scum. But guess who goes on to become her number 1 scum read? Max, not you. This is starting to become a reoccurring theme. Points at you but never actually means to lynch you.

And it's super interesting too that she reached the conclusion that APF is trying to distance from you.

There is a foregone conclusion there that you're scum

. I'm starting to believe it's a slip. I remember reading that the first time and thinking, "how the hell did she reach that conclusion, I wouldn't have read that and thought in a million years that APF was distancing himself from Lowell".

[Titus]

VOTE: Huntress

I can follow that for now. Seems legit. I am not liking the pushback on you for "trying too hard" either.

[Roshar]

FaQ, I'd also like your read on huntress.

Slight town read. I do not get the scum read on huntress. Your case centers around her avoiding the Clumsy wagon but considering huntress was on the Max wagon - its counter and just as likely to be the lynch and just as town - it really is not a valid point.

The other side of your read seems to essentially be a lurker read. I have found that lurker is essentially non-alignment indicative unless there is a reason for the lurking.

My case had two parts. Her avoiding Clumsy, then her avoiding Max. Just because she voted Max like 20 hrs before end of day when I started pressuring her about her lack of vote, doesn't mean she wanted to be on the counter-wagon.

Can you please read post 1578 and tell me. Do you buy her trying to divert the lynch?

The other side of my read is the clash between her being an active lurker, and her attempt to be helpful town! by being active in the last 20 hrs of the day by diverting the lynch on a player she never actually scum read (lowell).

And finally, if you still think she's town, can you please explain to me what part of her posting gives you that impression.

Would really appreciate this.

[Froot Loop]

In all of her 9 content posts in D1, she mentioned Clumsy and Max scummy at some points. She withdrew her Clumsy scum read when he was at L-5 because of his wagon. She shows preference in lynching Maxous as she didn't find his posts town like his predecessor (when choosing between lynches). Yet she doesn't vote him, with less than 24 hrs left in the day. Until I start cornering her about it. In which case she reluctantly votes, reminding us time and time again that she really doesn't want to do this. She's so adverse to lynching Max, that she's willing to have a flash lynch on....Lowell. With less than 24 hrs left. When more than half the players at that time were either replacing out (shaddow and mav) or inactive. That would have been impossible. And she knew that. She knew there was no way in hell that the lynch could be diverted.

She was just trying to look like she didn't want the Max lynch.

(my bold)

Do you think the aim of the suggested flash-lynch was to make it clear that she didn't want Max lynched? I feel like that was clear and if that was her aim, as scum, aren't there different ways she could make that clear rather than suggesting something pretty difficult? I'm not understanding why this suggestion itself is scummy.

All of this active lurking and now, she's promising to stay for the entirety of the last day (D1).

If she wanted to actually make a difference in the lynch pattern, she would have attempted to pursue her scum reads in the 10 days that she had in the game. Not post once every 2-3 days.

And now she's trying to pretend like she gonna try her best to help with like 20 hrs left in the day.

(my bold)

I don't think it's fair to assert how someone would play if they really want to impact things, I think that's more a matter of playstyle. Also, in this case, I think both the things you mention (pushing scumreads, posting frequency) can be explained by apathy.

@Froot, what is your read on Huntress?

I haven't got one yet. I understand the points you're making so let's see what happens today and we can make a decision when it comes to deciding who to lynch. I think you're being a bit tunnelly at the moment. I understand about the lurking and what you think is a disingenuous attempt to move the wagon at the end of D2. I think they're good points, although lurking is so difficult to contend with.

Can you clarify which days you're talking about WRT the wagons? Seems like D1 and D2?

I think Roshar's posting is NAI and I wouldn't say that it looks like fabricated content but more pushy. There's some examples here of some questionable posting but I think it'd be questionable as town and scum. I'm thinking about her refusal to move her vote and a disconnect between actions and subjective interpretation WRT Huntress' play. Here:

You're saying you found Clumsy suspicious on your first read. Then after you started looking at individual players and wagons, you started backing away. That is exactly what I just described. After looking at the wagon, and realizing you were late, you backed away.

No, that is not what you described. What you did, and repeated here, was to claim that I changed my reads after "realizing you were late". That is simply not true.

@smith - I'm worried and suspicious of your play at the moment. I see that you're getting involved in conversations and commenting on things but you're not coming to very many conclusions.

@Titus - have you had a look at the wagons D1? Can you clarify which players you think fit your description of possible scummy play?

[a plain farmer]

I'd like to ask some people about their reads on certain other people. The names I ask about aren't arbitrary, but I don't want to say why I picked them.

@FAQ:

What are your feelings on Johnny, Rosh, and Garmr?

@Garmr:

What are your feelings on Johnny, FAQ, and Titus?

@Huntress:

What are your feelings on FAQ, Lowell, and mhsmith?

@Rosh:

The scumslip you mention in 1581 might be something. However, my past experiences tell me to treat such things with a grain of salt. In looking at my own scumlean on Huntress, I see that it was mostly due to Jeanne's Jake vote and Huntress's general unhelpfulness, which isn't a strong read. That combined with Huntress's response to your push having felt town to me makes not eager to lynch her (I would give her the smallest of town-leans atm).

[Huntress]

I'm not going to reply point-by-point to Roshar's 1578 as it only seems to be rehashing stuff that I've already explained or replied to, and twisting the facts to cast shade on me. If anyone else wants me to comment on any particular part of it I'll be happy to oblige, but I've spent enough time answering her posts and it's distracting me from the rest of the game.

I've explained why my activity was low during Day two. It wasn't related to this game. I do not consider the time it took me to catch up as "lurking".

Also, in this case, I think both the things you mention (pushing scumreads, posting frequency) can be explained by apathy.

Nope, not apathy. If I was apathetic about it I wouldn't be playing. But I do have a problem that it takes me longer than most people to read, think and type.

@Huntress: What are your feelings on FAQ, Lowell, and mhsmith?

FAQ:

I like his play so far. He's made some good points.

Lowell:

I've been going back and forth on him as he's done some stuff I think is scummy but I don't see him as partners with Roshar due to their interaction on Day two, which Roshar came out of looking better than him. So I'm a bit conflicted there.

mhsmith:

I'm tentatively saying town for him. I'm uncomfortable with some of his play, such as suggesting the remaining neighbour(s) should come out, but I haven't seen anything really scummy.

[Lowell]

@Huntress, if you think I look worse than Rosh, why are you voting her? I mean, I

don't

look worse than rosh, who is obvscum, but if you believe so...

Also I'm happy to jump to titus. I think rosh is probably killable any time but titus strikes me as the type of player who will only get stronger as the game moves on.

[Huntress]

@Huntress, if you think I look worse than Rosh, why are you voting her? I mean, I

don't

look worse than rosh, who is obvscum, but if you believe so...

That was Day two, and based on one interaction. ToDay she's looking worse, but I'm not sure whether my judgement is being affected by the way she's tunnelling me. Hence the confliction.

Also I'm happy to jump to titus. I think rosh is probably killable any time but titus strikes me as the type of player who will only get stronger as the game moves on.

I'm not sure about Titus. I don't like the way she sheeped Roshar onto me, but she does seem to be trying to work out the game in her own way. And I can't help feeling your last sentence looks like it belongs in a mafia PT.

[Huntress]

I remember reading that the first time and thinking, "how did she reach that conclusion, I wouldn't have read that and thought in a million years that APF was distancing himself from Lowell".

It wasn't from reading the posts but rather from looking at the votes. It was an isolated point, but when I looked at the votes on my spreadsheet it stuck out to me. More a note for later, than anything else.

[Roshar]

@Froot


The suggestion is scummy because she showed very strong adversity to lynching Max on D1. Why? Why would she be willing to take the risk of a flash lynch in less that 20 hrs when she had found Maxous' posting not town? And who would she rather lynch? Lowell. Did she ever scum-read Lowell? No. But all of a sudden she feels so strong about not lynching Max. Like I'd understand if she wanted to lynch me instead b/c I was such a strong scum read, and had tried convincing the masses and pushing me through D1. But no. She comes out last day, appeals to people about not lynching the two lynch candidates by suggesting Lowell (b/c her lack of push on me D1 wasn't exactly going to get me lynched).

Town would not react this way. When faced with two players who had performed scummy at some point or another. Like Clumsy for me, for example. His recent tone felt more town, but I still felt he was damned by his previous posting. And I was more than ready to see his flip. As town, faced with two lynches end of D1, you wouldn't back away from the lynch because, "his wagon is not making me feel better". This is not the thought process of someone who doesn't know alignment. When you have doubt/suspicion about someone, that doubt never goes away. And when you understand the futility of the situation (20 hrs 'till end of day), you're willing to lynch suspicious reads, even if they're not the strongest.


Regards to your second point, do you think Huntress displayed apathy? Do you think her choosing the two most active posters as scum reads (you and I) shows apathy? Do you think her stating her willingness to stay all day next to her computer to divert the lynch shows apathy? I'd say she's quite invested.

And in terms of the last quote, it's obviously my interpretation, based on what she said, ("I'm not liking that wagon") of why Huntress decided to change her read on Clumsy. I.e, she liked his wagon much better when it was L-3 (when she first gave out the scum read), than when it was L-5. She didn't want to be the one who put him at L-1. Forgive me for not adding, "In my opinion"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4GbxFLA62Bc

And I'm talking mainly about the D1 wagons. I did discuss her D2 scum choices in regards to Lowell 1581

@APF, how would you evaluate that 'slip' if Huntress flipped scum? And what would you think about Lowell's stance on Huntress? I'm mainly referring to the fact:
1)She was on his list of people he was not okay lynching D2
2) That he thinks people voting him are, "opportunistic as hell". Yet, when Huntress was apparently willing to divert two L-5 lynches on him D1, he didn't comment.

[Roshar]

Eh, with regards to the D1 lynch wagons, I meant to say, she liked it better when it was at L-4, then when it was at L-2,

in my opinion

[Roshar]

I remember reading that the first time and thinking, "how did she reach that conclusion, I wouldn't have read that and thought in a million years that APF was distancing himself from Lowell".

It wasn't from reading the posts but rather from looking at the votes. It was an isolated point, but when I looked at the votes on my spreadsheet it stuck out to me. More a note for later, than anything else.

Makes less sense from a vote perspective. And this still operated under the assumption that Lowell was scum.

[Roshar]

Nope, not apathy. If I was apathetic about it I wouldn't be playing. But I do have a problem that it takes me longer than most people to read, think and type.

It takes you ten days to make 9 content posts?

Max is right. You are struggling to make reads.

[Roshar]

Grr, @APF, I meant two L-2 lynches.

[Titus]

Vote Count - Day 1 VC #12

Titus (0) -
Mhsmith (1) - Nos
Huntress (0) -
Froot (0) -
Pisskop (0) -
Max (2) - Froot, Maverick
Maverick (0) -
Shaddow (1) - Plain
Nos (0) -
Plain (1) - Shaddow
Lowell (0) -
Clumsy (3) - Rosh, Lowell, Max
Rosh (0) -
No Lynch (0) -
Not Voting (5) - Clumsy, Mhsmith, Pisskop, Titus, Huntress

Deadline

Day 1 will end on April 19, 2016 5:30 PM EST or in (expired on 2016-04-19 17:30:00).

Lynch Threshold

With 13 alive, it takes 7 to lynch.

Mod Notes

Maverick V/LA til April 11
Shaddowez V/LA til April 11
Lowell V/LA til April 11 (apparently)
Clumsy will be V/LA April 15-17
Trying to outguess the mod is against the rules. Jk.

Vote Count - Day 1 VC #13

Titus (0) -
Mhsmith (1) - Nos
Huntress (0) -
Froot (0) -
Pisskop (0) -
Max (2) - Froot, Rosh
Maverick (0) -
Shaddow (1) - Plain
Nos (0) -
Plain (1) - Shaddow
Lowell (0) -
Clumsy (3) - Lowell, Max, Maverick
Rosh (0) -
No Lynch (0) -
Not Voting (5) - Clumsy, Mhsmith, Pisskop, Titus, Huntress

Deadline

Day 1 will end on April 19, 2016 5:30 PM EST or in (expired on 2016-04-19 17:30:00).

Lynch Threshold

With 13 alive, it takes 7 to lynch.

Mod Notes

Clumsy will be V/LA April 15-17
Friendly reminder from mod to stay active. (

I'm keeping a close eye on that btw

)

Vote Count - Day 1 VC #14

Titus (0) -
Mhsmith (1) - Nos
Huntress (0) -
Froot (0) -
Pisskop (0) -
Max (2) - Froot, Titus
Maverick (0) -
Shaddow (0) -
Nos (0) -
Plain (0) -
Lowell (0) -
Clumsy (6) - Lowell, Maverick, Plain, Mhsmith, Rosh, Shaddow
Rosh (0) -
No Lynch (0) -
Not Voting (4) - Clumsy, Pisskop, Huntress, Max

Deadline

Day 1 will end on April 19, 2016 5:30 PM EST or in (expired on 2016-04-19 17:30:00).

Lynch Threshold

With 13 alive, it takes 7 to lynch.

Mod Notes

Clumsy will be V/LA April 15-17

Prodding Pisskop

- Technically, the prod was due in 50 minutes, so I won't count it against him.

Vote Count - Day 1 VC #15

Titus (0) -
Mhsmith (0) -
Huntress (0) -
Froot (0) -
Pisskop (0) -
Max (2) - Froot, Titus
Maverick (0) -
Shaddow (0) -
Nos (1) - Rosh
Plain (0) -
Lowell (1) - Nos
Clumsy (5) - Lowell, Maverick, Plain, Mhsmith, Shaddow
Rosh (0) -
No Lynch (0) -
Not Voting (4) - Clumsy, Pisskop, Huntress, Max

Deadline

Day 1 will end on April 19, 2016 5:30 PM EST or in (expired on 2016-04-19 17:30:00).

Lynch Threshold

With 13 alive, it takes 7 to lynch.

Mod Notes

Clumsy will be V/LA til April 17.
Maverick requested replacement.
Pisskop will be force-replaced.
Titus was prodded.

We know Clumsy is town. Max is town too. We have Pisskop, Huntress and Max who are refusing to do anything here. Huntress later takes a stand but doesn't really push anything.

Given we know that Clumsy and Max are town, Pisskop and Huntress are the ideal places to sort next.

[Ircher]

Vote Count - Day 3 VC #3

Titus (1) - FA_Q2
Mhsmith (0) -
Huntress (2) - Rosh, Titus
Froot (0) -
Johnny (0) -
FA_Q2 (0) -
Garmr (0) -
Plain (1) - Garmr
Lowell (0) -
Rosh (2) - Lowell, Huntress
No Lynch (0) -
Not Voting (4) - Mhsmith, Johnny, Froot, Plain

Deadline

Day 3 will end on May 13 8:30 PM EST or in (expired on 2016-05-13 20:30:00).

Lynch Threshold

With 10 alive, it takes 6 to lynch.

Mod Notes

None

[Huntress]

Do you think her stating her willingness to stay all day next to her computer to divert the lynch shows apathy? I'd say she's quite invested.

There's no point in me going over all the stuff in 1590 but this one amused me. By what stretch of the imagination do you translate "I'll be around" into the above?

And this still operated under the assumption that Lowell was scum.

More a case of "If Lowell is scum then apf could be his partner". As I said, It's something to look at later, if Lowell or apf flip scum.

@ Titus:

What was the point of posting those particular vote counts to the thread?

[Roshar]

You'll be around for the rest of the day.

I assume you post on your computer. I'm sorry, was it your phone?

You'll be around/next to your computer/phone monitoring the thread until the day ends.

Or did you mean something else?

[Huntress]

Nope. It meant I would be returning to my computer from time to time to check the thread.