Newbie 1713 (Game Over)

[Charloux]

DAMN IT FOX! I wanted to see if chip would take my hand(scummy) or not (towny); But i don't know if he changed his mind or not after your fucking 171.
You asked me why i don't vote? VOTE: Foxbird
I'd usually wait a bit longer before voting at all, but i will make for my lack of knowledge with my gut and make an exception.
And if you really like META that much check OPEN 639 and see how crazy i am when i am about to get lynched.

[Chip Butty]

DAMN IT FOX! I wanted to see if chip would take my hand(scummy) or not (towny); But i don't know if he changed his mind or not after your fucking 171.
You asked me why i don't vote? VOTE: Foxbird
I'd usually wait a bit longer before voting at all, but i will make for my lack of knowledge with my gut and make an exception.
And if you really like META that much check OPEN 639 and see how crazy i am when i am about to get lynched.

This post is incoherent, Charl. You are yelling at Fox because you think she messed up the trap you allege you set for me. But if you think that, why vote her?

And if you think she is scum, why yell at her? If she is scum, there is no point yelling at her for saving her "scum buddy" (i.e. me) from blundering into your "trap".

Like I say, it's incoherent. And that is why I think you are just fabricating this idea of a trap. There was no trap; you were buddying up to me, just as you appeared to be doing.

Now you look scummier than ever, imo.

[Charloux]

I suggest you get off your high horse and think among these lines:
1)What position was i in when i posted that?
2)What are the pros and cons for me trying to buddy you?
3)Are you really worth buddying that i someone would make it so obvious?

[Chip Butty]

I suggest you get off your high horse and think among these lines:
1)What position was i in when i posted that?

I dunno...Doggie? Reverse cowgirl? I really don't wanna think about it too hard.

2)What are the pros and cons for me trying to buddy you?

Pros:
1. When you go to bars trying to pick up girls, I'd be your wingman and back up all your BS stories;
2. I'd confiscate your car keys when you're blind drunk, even pay for your taxi home;
3. When you needed help moving house, I'd be there.

Cons:
1. I'd borrow your power tools and never return them;
2. I'd persistently try to get you to like soccer;
3. When you needed help moving house, I'd actually be "out of town".

3)Are you really worth buddying that i someone would make it so obvious?

Obviously

[SirCakez]

I'll catch up here tomorrow, sorry

[TellTaleHeart]

Vote Count 1.7

SirCakez [2] - Wirt, inspectorscout
Charloux [3] - Foxbird, Huntress, Chip Butty
inspectorscout [3] - SirCakez, Alexcellent, arak-and-skhug
Foxbird [1] - Charloux

Not Voting: No one

5 to lynch
Deadline is in (expired on 2016-06-10 13:20:09)

[Alexcellent]

I'm townreading Huntress because she's consistantly made sense to me, moving the game foward in a pro-town way, being genuine and concise, scum hunting and providing information

Hmm I haven't quite read her the same way, but fair enough.

But I do like 165! So there's that. So maybe I got through to you somehow! Except I disagree with one major point. I don't think Foxbird jumping first off my wagon clears her to be town for a few reason.
One - in the first couple posts of the game I looked like a super easy bandwagon with the IC on my back and Charloux deciding I'm probably prone to be taken advantage of
Two - Cakez joining my wagon actually discredited it because he joined so badly.
Three - by this point various people including you were starting to say I wasn't scummy.
Four - so Foxbird felt the winds changing and got nervous and went from me (who looked like an easy target but then was started proving more difficult) to Wirt (who also looked like an easy target because he hadn't joined yet)
Five - I think it was my post 45 (in which I quietly called out Cakez and Foxbird following Huntress with bad reasoning) and you backing it up right after that reversed the momentum on my wagon, rather then Foxbird's unvote.

I think Foxbird is intelligent enough to have sensed that I wasn't going to be quicklynched, (and it was obvious that I wasn't going to be quicklynched) and unvoted either because she got nervous, or because she calculated that it would help her look town, or some combination of both.

Fair points I suppose. In my head I still think scum maybe waits a bit to see if Cakez or Huntress leave your wagon first, but you might be right.

@Inspector - following on from your reads list in 94, do you still feel that Cakez is scum? Has your nullscum read on Charloux changed? Do you have thoughts on Huntress now that she's had a few more posts?

1: yeah i still scumread cakez because

I looked at inspectorscout's ISO and I found some concerning stuff.
The progression from 39 to 50 makes little sense. He specifically says he has arak as nullscum in 39, yet in 50 he defends arak and gives a reason to townread him. The only post in between was an unvote of Foxbird. I don't see how he just got from nullscum to defending in 10 posts.

already explained that it was not a sudden progression

And then I don't like his readslist in 94

wow that reveals a lot

There's a lot of vague reasoning.

this even more

For example, his nulltownread on Wirt is summarized as "althought he came late to the party, he did some pretty nice stuff so far. Nulltown" which looks like a throwaway townread scum would make.

i pretty much explained this already too

VOTE: inspectorscout

arak pretty much fell out of suspicion, and because i posted a reads list that was off he jumped for these vague reasons. actually, i even said the read post was going to be off in the fucking post itself, its my way to see who jumps on easily.

Yeah I wouldn't mind Cakez going a bit more in-depth, particularly on what he disliked about your reads list.

Mobile posting

The problem is that we don't want to out PRs. And we don't want VTs to unnecessarily claim as it makes the NK pool smaller. Getting a claim and then moving on to the next person for another claim hurts town more than scum, unless we actually manage to hit scum.
I'm all for using the time we have and not ending the day prematurely, but we should not be looking to get multiple claims. That's only helping scum.

Remember, we are only seeking claims from those who look scummy. And mislynches also reduce the NK pool.

Sure there are risks, but any strategy has risks; otherwise it would be a boring game. On the other hand, there is potentia for great payoffs: In Newbie 1704, we forced a couple of claims and as a result lost both our PRs on the first two nights. But Town won on D3.

Mislynches reduce the NK pool as well as the lynch pool, which at least benefits town to a degree by shortening the list of suspects, and we also have a chance of lynching scum. Getting someone to claim and letting them live almost always benefits scum and hurts town.

And we should not play the game with the approach that our PRs are expendable and we can win anyway. Mafia (especially Newbie Games) is typically tough to win without PRs.

DAMN IT FOX! I wanted to see if chip would take my hand(scummy) or not (towny); But i don't know if he changed his mind or not after your fucking 171.
You asked me why i don't vote? VOTE: Foxbird
I'd usually wait a bit longer before voting at all, but i will make for my lack of knowledge with my gut and make an exception.
And if you really like META that much check OPEN 639 and see how crazy i am when i am about to get lynched.

Referencing your own meta here is sort of WIFOMy. I don't like this post.

===

I'd be fine with a Charloux lynch, but I'm against voting just for the sake of a claim. If the plan is to just get a claim and then move to the next person, then I'm not going to go along with it, so I'm holding off on my Charloux vote for now. The fact that Chip put forward a plan to try and get multiple claims and Arak more or less appears to be down for the plan makes me uneasy. This plan is way too needlessly risky for town.

[Chip Butty]

How does town benefit from getting a claim from someone and then not lynching them?
I could be convinced to go for a Charloux lynch, but I won't join his wagon just for the sake of getting a claim. Getting a claim and then not following through helps scum more than town.

1. The idea of not lynching

right now

is to let the Day play out to its full extent, the benefit of which I have already mentioned; We can def go ahead and lynch Charl D1 if we press him and he looks scummy enough;

2. If he fakeclaims a PR, someone with the same PR, or an incompatible one, can counterclaim, and there will almost certainly be scum among those two, most likely Charl as the first claimant. I say "almost" because last game I was in with him he fakeclaimed a PR as VT without any particular reason to do so. In fact, he claimed VT first, then changed to Jailkeeper, which looked incredibly scummy.

3. By pushing him to the brink, we put him under real pressure, and we can see how he reacts. But, yeah, the threat has to be real. He has to know that if he gets it wrong he gets lynched.

4. If you can be convinced to go for a Charl, lynch, you should be good to go for this as well, since pushing to L-1 with intent is a precursor to a lynch anyway.

So, yeah, to be clear: This COULD go to lynch if Charl fails to convince enough Townies that he is not scum.

2. If he fakeclaims a PR, someone with the same PR, or an incompatible one, can counterclaim, and there will almost certainly be scum among those two, most likely Charl as the first claimant.

This also allows the mafia in N1 to have a better idea on who to NK. What if he claims Cop and forces our real Cop to claim as well? What if scum has a Roleblocker or we don't have a secret Doc to protect the Cop? I saw that happen in another game I was reading a while ago. It's a pretty big risk. If he claims a town PR (or even VT) and we let him off the hook, that's still potentially more info that we should give to the scum.

Okay, those are all good questions.

1. Only vote Charl if you think he looks scummy. If you really think there is a solid chance he is a Town PR, don't vote him. Remember there are only two Town PRs out there, out of nine players.

2. If he claims Cop, he doesn't "force" our real Cop (if we have one) to cc right away.

But let's say our Cop does cc. Then we "know" there is scum among those two. Even if we get it wrong first time, or our Cop gets NKed, we are trading 1:1 and go into D2 with 7/1.

BUT, the real Cop could let it ride for the time being, in the hope of nailing the other scum and denouncing them together, or of getting a Charl lynch without announcing himself.

Really, it is only Charl I want a claim from at this point. If we got that, I'd be content to wait until near-deadline to see if anyone emerged looking scummier, and lynching appropriately.

Mobile posting

The problem is that we don't want to out PRs. And we don't want VTs to unnecessarily claim as it makes the NK pool smaller. Getting a claim and then moving on to the next person for another claim hurts town more than scum, unless we actually manage to hit scum.
I'm all for using the time we have and not ending the day prematurely, but we should not be looking to get multiple claims. That's only helping scum.

Remember, we are only seeking claims from those who look scummy. And mislynches also reduce the NK pool.

Sure there are risks, but any strategy has risks; otherwise it would be a boring game. On the other hand, there is potentia for great payoffs: In Newbie 1704, we forced a couple of claims and as a result lost both our PRs on the first two nights. But Town won on D3.

Mislynches reduce the NK pool as well as the lynch pool, which at least benefits town to a degree by shortening the list of suspects, and we also have a chance of lynching scum. Getting someone to claim and letting them live almost always benefits scum and hurts town.

And we should not play the game with the approach that our PRs are expendable and we can win anyway. Mafia (especially Newbie Games) is typically tough to win without PRs.

...

I'd be fine with a Charloux lynch, but I'm against voting just for the sake of a claim. If the plan is to just get a claim and then move to the next person, then I'm not going to go along with it, so I'm holding off on my Charloux vote for now. The fact that Chip put forward a plan to try and get multiple claims and Arak more or less appears to be down for the plan makes me uneasy. This plan is way too needlessly risky for town.

Again, I'm not suggesting getting multiple claims. I've already said I only want a claim from Charl. And I have also said a couple times that, once getting that claim, we can go ahead and lynch NEAR DEADLINE. When I say we back off after getting a claim, I only mean that we should back off until near deadline, so we can se the rest of the day to look at other suspects (BUT, note, not necessarily get more claims). Near deadline, we lynch Charl if he looks the most scummy at that point.

I have also said that none of our PRs need to out themselves. BUT, possessing the knowledge that Charl was lying, they could try to get him lynched, and/or wait until an appropriate time to announce their result. I totally agree with you that we don't want to out or PRs unless their is a clear benefit to Town. So, if you think Charl is a Town PR, fine dont vote him. But if you think he is scum, let's take him to the brink, get his reaction and, if we think he is scum, marked him down as a lynch as we approach deadline. I'm not suggesting anything radical here; it is just standard operating procedure.

So far, I'm seeing your opposition to the plan as just mis-reading my posts, since I have already addressed the concerns you raise. As I said earlier, if you think Charl is scum and you are fine with lynching him, why not be fine with taking him to the brink, getting a claim, but holding off until near deadline, so as to not bring the day to an early close (which tends to benefit scum, since we lose an opportunity to scrutinize more players before dayend)?

[Chip Butty]

I totally agree with you, btw, that we don't want to needlessly out our PRs. But I have already addressed that; the plan doesn't require it...

[Alexcellent]

Fair enough, maybe I'm jumping to conclusions with your intentions a bit. I've just played too many games, particularly newbie games, where there's been like 2 or 3 claims on D1, then it's all downhill from there.
I'll mull over what I want to do.

I'm going to be mostly only available via mobile for the next day or so, so I might not be that active, but I'll try and keep up to date with the thread

[Charloux]

You really are jerks you know? Using only what is convenient for you and coming to conclusions i never even thought about. I warned chip about this but he just dodged the questions like a kid. If you want to make me look like scum do so after you look at everything or we deserve to lose.

[Chip Butty]

Okay, you want serious answers to your questions? Here we go...

I suggest you get off your high horse and think among these lines:
1)What position was i in when i posted that?

I'm not sure what you mean here. Why don't YOU tell us what position you were in?

2)What are the pros and cons for me trying to buddy you?

The usual advantage of buddying is to look Townish by association with someone who is known or seen to be Town. Given that I had just entered the game, it was admittedly premature for a buddying attempt BUT...See, here's the thing Charl: As I have said before, I know from past experience that you sometimes don't play rationally. No real cons that I can see but, please, enlighten me.

3)Are you really worth buddying that i someone would make it so obvious?

Not at this point, but the alleged "trap" was pretty obvious too, so this doesn't get you anywhere.

I think the thing that is bothering me most about you ATM is your attack on Fox at #200: I could understand if you thought she just innocently bumbled into your trap and alerted me to stay clear OR if you thought she was scum BUT NOT BOTH. Again, why yell at her AND vote her? It doesn't make sense.

Yes, there are plenty of others for me to look at yet, and I'll get around to that soonish. However, you seem like a good lead in the meantime...

[Huntress]

I found Charloux's abrupt change of tone in 200 very jarring. And I didn't like the self-meta either.

We should not be trying to push several people to claim. Only ask for a claim if you intend to hammer.

I recommend that if there is a fake claim nobody counterclaims it, at least until Day two, and PR's should be careful not to give themselves away by their responses to any claim.


Please, please, don't insert your comments into something you have quoted. It makes it very difficult to see who has said what, and very confusing if the whole thing is later requoted. An example of this is the middle quote in 206. It also makes it awkward if someone wants to just quote the response.

If you are going to use colours, please make sure they work in both mafsilver and mafblack themes. I have to highlight the green that Chip Butty is using to be able to read it, and when it's also inserted inside a quote then, unless I take care to only highlight the coloured bits, it's impossible to see which parts are original and which parts are added. Just put your comments outside the quote.

[SirCakez]

@Cakez: It was a gutread mixed with the stuff I mentioned in my 70, but people have been bringing up good points about his play. I'm scanning the thread right now for any interactions around him that are of interest. Still not willing to join the wagon just yet. If he flips scum, it looks reeeally bad for me anyway, so jumping it now when I still have him somewhat townread (even though it's shakier now) is pointless (and could allow for a quickhammer, e.g. if Adam's replacement joins in and lolhammers before we can get a final defense/claim).
_ _ _

Spoiler: Thoughts on Inspector Interactions

So, aside from the fact that, if he flips scum, I'm pretty boned, I found the following:

1. In 60, he defends Arak against Cakez, and I think someone already pointed out that that came pretty rapidly after he was suspecting him, too? Can't find that post right now, but the interaction in question happens from 50 to 60. I also forgot about the "majestic bailout" compliment-thingie in 68 from Arak TO Inspector. I don't think Arak complimented anyone else since then, so why the sudden buddying? Inspector is also reading Arak as "nulltown" according to his readlist. Not sure how telling that is. Might also be worth noting that Arak is third on the wagon, if we want to eventually get into wagon meta.
2. Wirt said something about 'mindmelding' with Inspector in 61, but I don't think that counts as buddying. Other than that, they're on the same wagon, but it started like thirty posts before the Inspector one gained momentum. Wirt is "nulltown" in Inspector's readlist. Wirt is questioning him pretty hard, though (120 and 144).
3. Nullread on Alex and me (for lack of Alex' posts at the time and me getting newbie leniency).
4. Scumreads are Cakez (on whose wagon he is) and Charloux.
For reference, last Inspector readlist was 94.

If Inspector flips scum, I'm seeing a potential partner in Arak. Could also consider Charloux or even Adam's slot (I really hope they start posting soon).
If he flips town, it's worth looking at the later slots of the wagon. I should look into some wagon meta..

What do you hope to gain from all of these questions?

I just think it's an interesting train of thought. I know I'm not the scumpartner, so I want to know what other potential reads people have. Knowing people's follow-ups (or Plan Bs) helps immensely in analyzing the situation post-flip. The only risk is maybe giving the Mafia too much info on who to NK to make people suspicious of each other, but I don't think they benefit as much as the Town does.

I don't see what these interactions are supposed to mean. Thanks for answering the read question though.
If you just wanted his reads, why not just ask for his reads O.o

(Also Cakez comment on his meta adds to it but I was already getting a feeling that me vs. him was town vs. town and I'm just being stubborn and trying to prove my point. At the moment there's two lynch candidates head and shoulders above Alex in my opinion)

What comment on who's meta? Alex's?

Okay doing an ISO now because Alex still bothers me. I'm putting it in a spoiler tag so that everyone doesn't get a head ache from quotes on quotes on quotes., this is basically a run through of every time he does this quote + one question thing and how much he accomplishes by doing it.

Spoiler: Alex ISO Part One

So how much experience do all new players have with mafia? Played much before offsite or is MafiaScum basically it so far?

Only Foxbird answers this question that was asked to everyone, Alex doesn't follow up on it in any way.

I feel like a bad guy here... Sorry Alex, i just heard wagons were good to get the game going.
@Arak: you are being too paranoid, i don't think a page 1 lynch happens that often; maybe 1 in 1000 games?

I forgive you

What changed for you between this game and your previous completed newbie games? You seemed opposed to RVS voting early in those games. Just the hearing about wagons thing?

Charloux answers this question, Alex again doesn't follow up on it in any way or ever mention his meta on Charloux again.

yo maybe I'm crazy but I don't think anyone should be at L-2 before they've even made their first post. there's two mafia and if they aren't already on this wagon, they could lynch Alex before he even gets to say hello. Not ideal.

You seem nervous about this wagon. Do you really think scum would expose themselves like that?

I'm getting a slight scum-vibe from this post.

Vote: Arak

this is my second game and I lost my first one so I really want us to win this one to make up for it.

Town won that so you'd like scum to win this one?

Okay Huntress go ahead and take us out of RVS before everyone's even gotten here.
UNVOTE: ashley

1) In regards to the Alex wagon being a mistake: I've looked around in other newbie games and crazier things have happened. No, it's not likely that Alex would get lynched, but what good comes out of wagoning like that? Did we really gain any information from having a wagon on Alex? A RVS wagon doesn't do much of anything, people feel no pressure when there's no reasoning behind the votes. If Alex WAS scum he can just shrug and say oh well they're voting me because of my name, and then he doesn't have to defend himself and we're denied any information that would come of it.

2) Town won my last game so I want scum to win this one? What? Either you didn't think this one through all the way or you're making a low-energy effort to paint a throwaway statement as a tell. I said I lost last one so I want to win this one. Pretty sure motivation to win is an alignment neutral trait, but if you're going to try to erroneously generalize at least do it accurately. Scum LOST my last game so I want town to win this one. Because I was scum last game and town this game. And both games I want/wanted to win. Do I need to simplify more?

I do find this post to be pretty defensive for fairly little reason.
Why did you remove your RVS vote?

I didn't realize you weren't being serious and I didn't realize I overreacted.

And yes while it's true that we're gaining information, we're only gaining it on 3-4 players. Half the town didn't participate in RVS. And I don't know how critical or not that is but it seems to me like a bad idea because scum can hide in all those holes. Of course the game needs to progress and we have to do something but we just need to be mindful of who hasn't had a chance to post yet and how it's easy to hone in for good or for bad on more active players.

Also Charloux, what does it mean to be overly honest? Does town have any reason to be anything less then honest?

This sort of checks out in some ways but it's also very early to be anxious about this sort of thing. Do you think it would be bad if scum missed out on RVS?

Okay so here Alex picks one post and quotes it just to say its defensive. A few posts later he'll say defensiveness isn't a scumtell. Ok so that was a wase of time. As for the questions you ask in the post, let me prove my point by answering them. Why did I unvote? RVS is over. Is it bad if scum missed out on RVS? It's not good. But it's not critical. It's just a little less information for the town. These are such no-risk no-reward questions. Nothing about my alignment is revealed by answering them, but more noteworthy, nothing is revealed about Alex's alignment by asking them. He's hiding.

Post 27 is fluff
Post 28 is fluff

What i think is that arak is def on my nullscum list for that reaction, but not more than that. Flailing isnt necessarily a scum thing; dont forget this is a newbie game, we (yes im a newb too) tend to stress a lot when they are suspected, regardless of alignment.
Im keeping my rvs vote tho, ill let huntress continue their discussion, id love to see what foxbird has to say

Yeah agreed. Defensiveness isn't necessarily a scum tell here. But it's worth noting how he reacts under pressure.

Okay a few quick thoughts cause i just worked all night and need to sleep.

1) L-2s make me uncomfortable. L-1s even more so. Is that a playstyle thing? yes. Is that problematic? apparently. should it be? I don't think so.

It is a playstyle thing and I would have been somewhat more concerned if I made it to L-1, L-2's not such a big deal though. The odds of a lynch happening are fairly small. I don't think it's scummy for you to dislike the RVS L-2 though.

4. I unvoted Ashley because RVS is over and it's stupid at this point to have my vote on someone because someone else stole my gummi worms in middle school.
Foxbird and Alex, can you share any reasons why I should I have kept my vote on Ashley?

Your vote is weaker when it's not on someone, even if it's on someone over gummi worms. It just seemed odd to remove it without placing it elsewhere. But I think this is probably just a difference in playstyles.

Let's break this one down according to Alex:
Quote one: dismisses the only criticism he's made against any other player so far. Also Alex quote something he doesn't find scummy
Quote two: Alex quotes something he doesn't find scummy
Quote three: Alex quotes something that he thinks he just different playstyles, AKA not scummy!

So that was another post that accomplished nothing except made Alex look busy.

I'll ignore the prodge in 73 because I don't think activity or lack there-of is a reliable alignment indicator, but it would fit with all this hiding in plain site.

So I'm getting caught up, I'll just post things as I see them.

I find this:

5. Foxbird, your vote is on me to see my defense. What specifically do you want me to defend against? Your vote? Or just in general? If I jump around in a town t-shirt, would that qualify?

What you posted is what I wanted to see - just the whole 'how does he react under pressure?' thing. I like your reaction, though I find the 'Town T-Shirt' comment a bit strange.
And yes, many of the 'issues' probably boil down to playstyle etc, so I'm moving my vote to someone who I want to see do something for now.

Hmm...
UNVOTE: Arak
VOTE: Wirt

Let's see what he says after catching up!

To be more likely coming from town more so than scum. That's provided Arak's town. While the Wirt vote is fairly weak, I don't see why scum!Foxbird moves off of a wagon that has momentum to apply pressure on someone who hadn't even posted at that point. Unless Arak's her scum partner and she was legitimately afraid that he was at risk of being lynched, but that seems unlikely to me.

Here he finds Foxbirds switch to Wirt to be a towny move? What? Haha maybe you're her partner. Alex can't find a single motivation for a scum Foxbird to go off the wagon. Not one. Look at this wishy-washiness...."Oh, but maybe Arak's her partner oh but maybe not." "Oh, that vote was weak, but also likely town"

Still nothing critical said. No strong reads. No pushes. No critiques. Still just Alex coasting along, no risk and no reward. moving on!

Hello folks

shalom yall

this is my second game and I lost my first one so I really want us to win this one to make up for it.

yo maybe I'm crazy but I don't think anyone should be at L-2 before they've even made their first post. there's two mafia and if they aren't already on this wagon, they could lynch Alex before he even gets to say hello. Not ideal.

Anyway.

One time when I was in middle school a girl named Ashley stole my gummi worms and I never really got over it.
So
VOTE: ashley

As several other have noted, the third paragraph here is very bizarrely paranoid. And the follow-up to being questioned by Huntress also looked very defensive to me. A good vote to get me into the game.


VOTE: arak

Wait what. Am i the only one that thinks this is an extremely convenient hop on?

And arak saying that he didnt really flail is a rather town move; if he was scum he wouldve most likely tried to avoid discussion about that

I find it kind of sheepy, but not necessarily scummy.

Look at this multiple post sequence being quoted and reposted just that we all know that Alex thinks this interaction wasn't scummy. Busy busy busy busy busy Alex scumhunting so hard.

I'm going to have to finish this later but go ahead and take a look inside, it's worth it just to see how empty his posts are when they're all lined up next to each other.

What makes this a scum move though? I've seen town play like this before more then once, heck I've seen Alex himself do it as town.

@SirCakez

-

I looked at inspectorscout's ISO and I found some concerning stuff.
The progression from 39 to 50 makes little sense. He specifically says he has arak as nullscum in 39, yet in 50 he defends arak and gives a reason to townread him. The only post in between was an unvote of Foxbird. I don't see how he just got from nullscum to defending in 10 posts.

And then I don't like his readslist in 94

There's a lot of vague reasoning.
For example, his nulltownread on Wirt is summarized as "althought he came late to the party, he did some pretty nice stuff so far. Nulltown" which looks like a throwaway townread scum would make.

VOTE: inspectorscout

Was there anything specific in his reads list that you didn't like?
Also I asked earlier and I don't think you answered, but why vote Inspector over Foxbird? You had said that you were scumreading Foxbird earlier, and she had more votes on her. The jump to Inspector is just curious.

@Wirt

- how are you feeling about Cakez now that he's posted a bit more? Feeling better or worse about his content?

The reads on Wirt and Foxbird mainly, I don't like the "newbie leniency" thing on Foxbird. His read on me also felt very waffly.
I voted Inspector over Foxbird since Fox was already being pressured a good amount and I felt Inspector wasn't getting looked at closely enough.

Fox's 147 looks like a pre-emptive defence against being called Inspector's partner should Inspector flip scum, but I'm also wondering whether Inspector has been setting her up a bit. I need to look into that.

This echoed my own thoughts which is good. Huntress starts to move above null in my reads.

[SirCakez]

@Inspector - following on from your reads list in 94, do you still feel that Cakez is scum? Has your nullscum read on Charloux changed? Do you have thoughts on Huntress now that she's had a few more posts?

1: yeah i still scumread cakez because

I looked at inspectorscout's ISO and I found some concerning stuff.
The progression from 39 to 50 makes little sense. He specifically says he has arak as nullscum in 39, yet in 50 he defends arak and gives a reason to townread him. The only post in between was an unvote of Foxbird. I don't see how he just got from nullscum to defending in 10 posts.

already explained that it was not a sudden progression

And then I don't like his readslist in 94

wow that reveals a lot

There's a lot of vague reasoning.

this even more

For example, his nulltownread on Wirt is summarized as "althought he came late to the party, he did some pretty nice stuff so far. Nulltown" which looks like a throwaway townread scum would make.

i pretty much explained this already too

VOTE: inspectorscout

arak pretty much fell out of suspicion, and because i posted a reads list that was off he jumped for these vague reasons. actually, i even said the read post was going to be off in the fucking post itself, its my way to see who jumps on easily.

uh yah i have some time so ill do some quick reads (i love to do those randomly because they are like dry wood in the oven of discussion)

I'll do a readslist once Huntress and Adam contribute some stuff.

'I dont know shit to say but well i can delay it.' both have posted, so id love to see your reads list now.

In post 115, Foxbird wrote:
Perhaps my view on Inspector is biased because he helped me. I just feel like he's genuinely trying to be a good Townie and struggling a bit like I am, I guess? I'm not getting that vibe from Charloux or Cakez, so I suppose we just disagree there, Arak.

I think this could be a scumbuddy defending another. The way Fox describes Inspector sounds like trying to get him out of trouble without any real reason to be townreading him.

yeah bc buddying is really what people do lately. Im not that stupid to try and be best friends with my scumbuddy if i was scum.


2: as mentioned in my previous post, i still scumread charloux
3: slightly town, she asked some pretty good questions already. still waiting for a reads list with explaination

This is pretty nasty. Inspector saying he made his readslist intentionally bad to see who jumped on looks like an excuse for an unintentionally scummy readslist.
And the readslist accusation is terrible. There's nothing scummy about not posting reads immediately.

How does town benefit from getting a claim from someone and then not lynching them?
I could be convinced to go for a Charloux lynch, but I won't join his wagon just for the sake of getting a claim. Getting a claim and then not following through helps scum more than town.

1. The idea of not lynching

right now

is to let the Day play out to its full extent, the benefit of which I have already mentioned; We can def go ahead and lynch Charl D1 if we press him and he looks scummy enough;

2. If he fakeclaims a PR, someone with the same PR, or an incompatible one, can counterclaim, and there will almost certainly be scum among those two, most likely Charl as the first claimant. I say "almost" because last game I was in with him he fakeclaimed a PR as VT without any particular reason to do so. In fact, he claimed VT first, then changed to Jailkeeper, which looked incredibly scummy.

3. By pushing him to the brink, we put him under real pressure, and we can see how he reacts. But, yeah, the threat has to be real. He has to know that if he gets it wrong he gets lynched.

4. If you can be convinced to go for a Charl, lynch, you should be good to go for this as well, since pushing to L-1 with intent is a precursor to a lynch anyway.

So, yeah, to be clear: This COULD go to lynch if Charl fails to convince enough Townies that he is not scum.

I think posts like this from Chip are exceedingly townie. Well thought and indepth reasoning that I really don't see scum being able to make.

Foxbird, there's absolutely no reason why town should be speculating on potential PR slips. You're only highlighting it for scum that might have missed it. That probably wasn't a slip, most games (especially on other sites I believe) default to having two PRs and it's an easy assumption for someone to make.

If our PRs are intelligent enough they could get through this without drawing a target. I'm personally for the plan, but Charloux isn't my first choice to force a claim from. We'd be putting a lot of confidence in your meta on him, and you're off to a good start Chip but I want to see more from you before I have that confidence. I think Inspector would be a better choice.

Agreeing with Arak here on preferring an Inspector claim.

I have not looked at Charloux much, that is high on my list of priorities.

[SirCakez]

DAMN IT FOX! I wanted to see if chip would take my hand(scummy) or not (towny); But i don't know if he changed his mind or not after your fucking 171.
You asked me why i don't vote? VOTE: Foxbird
I'd usually wait a bit longer before voting at all, but i will make for my lack of knowledge with my gut and make an exception.
And if you really like META that much check OPEN 639 and see how crazy i am when i am about to get lynched.

This is pretty scummy. Why so much anger and yelling? Looks like flailing scum.

Yeah I wouldn't mind Cakez going a bit more in-depth, particularly on what he disliked about your reads list.

I'd be fine with a Charloux lynch, but I'm against voting just for the sake of a claim. If the plan is to just get a claim and then move to the next person, then I'm not going to go along with it, so I'm holding off on my Charloux vote for now. The fact that Chip put forward a plan to try and get multiple claims and Arak more or less appears to be down for the plan makes me uneasy. This plan is way too needlessly risky for town.

I talked about the reads some more in my earlier catchup.
Agree that chaining claims is a bad idea. I do want Inspector to claim at the least though.

You really are jerks you know? Using only what is convenient for you and coming to conclusions i never even thought about. I warned chip about this but he just dodged the questions like a kid. If you want to make me look like scum do so after you look at everything or we deserve to lose.

This is also rather scummy. Writing off accusations as "thing I didn't think about" for example.

I'll do a readslist and Charloux ISO later today.

[Foxbird]

I don't have much to add at the moment. I'm quite happy with where my vote is, based on Charloux' recent posts. I'm curious what Inspector will saya about them.

Alex, when you say you want Inspector to claim but no chain claims, do you just mean that you'd prefer the Inspector claim/lynch today, or do you just want both of them to claim anyway?

[Alexcellent]

Where did I say that?

I think I would be fine with either an Inspector or Charloux lynch today - although no rush right now. I don't want both of them claiming though. Only get a claim if we legitimately intend to lynch them. Probably leaning Inspector, although Charloux's recent posts might've swayed me.

[Charloux]

@fox: You just want to use this situation for free town credit when i got ganged up for a wrong reason. And then i got scumread for saying they were wrong. Jesus take the wheel...

[SirCakez]

What is this "wrong reason" you're getting ganged up on for Charloux?

[arak-and-skhug]

wow but all post 200 does is make me doubt the scum read on Foxbird that I had until this point. Foxbird is playing better. The last post she made that had anything that looked scummy to me is post 147. I thought her "Oh I'm screwed if Inspector flips scum" thing was ploy by scum...If she's scum and Inspector's town, she knows that. So here's her chance to ride a Inspector lynch and say "oh look you guys were wrong about him so that means you were probably wrong about me." Maybe that's overly speculative on my part. And since then I've liked her posting, and Charloux is making her look town right now.

In regards to Charloux, while I don't think people raging and lashing out necessarily makes them scum (anger and yelling by itself def isn't a scumtell) I find it weird that Charloux was so calm and non-committal and now is freaking out at the prospect of getting lynched. Town shouldn't freak out like that. Town's game isn't over is they get mislynched, there's nothing to panic about. Obviously, if you know your town, you should defend yourself until the end, but this isn't a rational defense, this is panicking.

Also forget anything calculated with claims, we're clearly not on the same page with it, i'm seeing people tossing around chained claimed and multiple claims and no one seems to know who wants what when all Chip wanted was ONE forced claim on ONE scummy looking player and even then to hold off lynching him until closer to deadline. But people seem to be confused by it and when people are confused, things backfire. So maybe we should all just drop it.


Oh and I almost forgot. VOTE: Charloux

That's L-1 people! I repeat. L-1

L-1 L-1 L-1 L-1 L-1 L-1 L-1 L-1

proceed with caution.
but proceed nontheless.

[arak-and-skhug]

Also Cakez is the one that agreed with me about wanting Inspector, not Alex. Foxbird you must have misread.

Also Cakez, there's no need to drum up anything between Alex and myself, I like what he's posting now. Also my comment about your meta on him was in reference to the statement you've made twice now that you've seen these kinds of posts from a town-aligned Alex before.

[Charloux]

VOTE: charloux yes im scum but i didn't buddy chip, that was just me playing how i always do.

[arak-and-skhug]

Seriously? You're gonna self-hammer?

[SirCakez]

O.o
Well that makes this a lot easier.