Mini 1836: Space Mafia (Game Over)

[Toto]

It is 100% fact this game doesn't have an encryptor

It is also a 100% fact that mafia has daytalk. Since I'm assuming encryptor = daytalk then I don't see a problem with this. Are you trying to say my assumption is wrong? if so, why?

You haven't even seen my conclusion yet and you are already defending the fact that mafia has roleblockers. Why?

yes your assumption is wrong. There is no encryptor in this game at all. Daytalk is part of the game setup and not because of some role.

If this game had an encryptor, we would not be told that mafia has daytalk.

you literally said you understood but clearly you don't

Expressing this is turning out more difficult than I thought. I think we are talking past each other.

I understand that the fact that we have mechanical daytalk means that there is literally no one with an assigned encryptor role. I really really understand that.

What I'm saying is that game balance / set up wise it should be roughly equivalent to have an encryptor as it is to have daytalk. Since I can not find many examples of games with mechanical daytalk I'm looking for games with encryptors which seem to be far more common. The mafia 'power' in those games should be similar to the mafia power here.

I'm also not saying it is impossible that mafia can have encryptors and roleblockers at the same time. I'm just trying to understand if it is

likely

. If I come back and tell you statistically there is only 5% chance of that happening how does that affect your read on Dunn? what about 95%?

Do you disagree? Are you saying that the fact that mafia has daytalk is not taken into account for game balance and we should pretend it doesn't exist when trying to guess potential mafia roles?

@Xk: If I'm wasting my time I'm open to suggestions of what to do instead. Plus I don't think I am since I'm learning a lot with the exercise.

[massive]

17. The Mafia have unrestricted daytalk in this game.

Is there any way we can use this? I expect mafia to be more... coordinated?

Toto is town for this post. If scum-Toto wanted to distract the town with discussion of daytalk, he had opportunities Day 1 (around Naomi's giant-letter post, for example) to do so. Bringing it up Day 2 in the middle of a bogged-down town is an actual attempt at trying to find another way to unlock the game.

Xkfyu is still town. Still saying too many things I am saying before I read them.

Panther's 1942 is bad. Like, I didn't bother reading the post IMMEDIATELY AFTER IT and just wanted to half-quote you bad.

Up to 78. Need breakfast.

[TwoFace]

Since I can not find many examples of games with mechanical daytalk

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=53&t=68113
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=53&t=67805
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=53&t=67535
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=53&t=67069

this took me 5 minutes

now, please stop worrying about other games and focus on this one.

[Xkfyu]

@Xk: If I'm wasting my time I'm open to suggestions of what to do instead. Plus I don't think I am since I'm learning a lot with the exercise.

I'll rephrase then.

It is a complete waste of time, as far as solving this game is concerned.

Any correlation you find between Mafia daytalk/Encryptor and a Mafia Roleblocker will be purely coincidental. The existence of one has no effect on the existence of the other. When thinking about game balance, no mod has ever said "Well, I have an Ecryptor in the game, I guess I can't include a Roleblocker."

Setups are balanced based on Town vs Scum PRs, not Mafia vs Mafia PRs. Ie any combination of Mafia PRs can exist, given the right combination of Town PRs, and vice versa.

Therefore, if you were trying to find correlations between different PRs, in an attempt to determine whether or not there really is a Roleblocker, then you'd be better served by looking for the existence of Mafia Roleblockers when there is a Town Tracker in the game.

However, don't do this either, because this is also a waste of time, and here's why.

With the exception of a select few semi-uncommon roles that resolve before the roleblocks, a Mafia Roleblocker directly counters any active Town PR. Therefore, any game in which Town has an active PR, a Mafia Roleblocker is a viable role to include in the setup.

And since we already know that itlepip was a Tracker (an active Town PR), we know that the existence of a Mafia Roleblocker is possible.

That's pretty much as good as we can get right now. However, if you are set on doing this kind of research, what you should be looking for is what is the percentage of Mini Normal games that included a Mafia Roleblocker out of the total number of Mini Normal games in which a Mafia Roleblocker was a viable role.

@Xk: If I'm wasting my time I'm open to suggestions of what to do instead. Plus I don't think I am since I'm learning a lot with the exercise.

I'll rephrase then.

It is a complete waste of time, as far as solving this game is concerned.

Setups are balanced based on Town vs Scum PRs, not Mafia vs Mafia PRs. Ie any combination of Mafia PRs can exist, given the right combination of Town PRs, and vice versa.

With the exception of a select few semi-uncommon roles that resolve before the roleblocks, a Mafia Roleblocker directly counters any active Town PR. Therefore, any game in which Town has an active PR, a Mafia Roleblocker is a viable role to include in the setup.

And since we already know that itlepip was a Tracker (an active Town PR), we know that the existence of a Mafia Roleblocker is possible. That's pretty much as good as we can get right now.

[Xkfyu]

Lol oops.

[Xkfyu]

The second part of that is the abridged version of the first.

[Toto]

Thanks! this is much more helpful. I was already looking at mini normal but will take into account viability of role-blocker too. This is going to be more time consuming than I thought, though. I'll try to have a report in 3 days.

@2face: thanks for the links. I had already found a couple of them. I still think 4 is low sample size, though.

Xk, you mentioned you think is Grapes was town before. Why?

[Toto]

Is Grapes scum?

I don't think so.

This is what I meant.

[TwoFace]

@2face: thanks for the links. I had already found a couple of them. I still think 4 is low sample size, though.

[Xkfyu]

Thanks! this is much more helpful. I was already looking at mini normal but will take into account viability of role-blocker too. This is going to be more time consuming than I thought, though. I'll try to have a report in 3 days.

I still think, in respect to this game, your time will be better spent interacting with people and asking questions that directly pertain to this game.

Xk, you mentioned you think is Grapes was town before. Why?

Assuming that Dunn is town and has claimed truthfully (which I fully believe to be the case), a scum Grapes assumes one of two things.

Either a) Grapes is lying that he didn't receive Dunn's visit or b) Dunn actually was Roleblocked, and Grapes knows it.

Both scenarios are high risk/low reward for a scum Grapes, in that even if Dunn is lynched, Grapes stands a good chance at being the next lynch, which brings me back to the point I made earlier about scum never trading 1 for 1 with town.

Therefore, the best course of action for a scum Grapes, in this situation, would be to just confirm Dunn's visit and NK Dunn soon, and that isn't what happened.

Even in scenario B, where Grapes knew Dunn was blocked, confirming the visit would at least keep the roleblocker role hidden.

[massive]

That's one hell of a convoluted master plan in Toto's 2006.

Why will nobody even say massive's name. If he was town, wouldn't that be an easy push for scum? Dude doesn't post

Clearly I'm not THAT easy of a push, since you keep trying and no one is listening to you. Don't be sore. We'll get to you eventually.

Well I already said I wasn't playing a great game and the people who are most deserving of a lynch aren't getting lynched. Toto is kind of meh to me and his argument about Dunn/grapes are both scum is one I can't see coming from town.

Why not? Was there something about that convoluted mess of logical missteps specifically said "I'm trying to misdirect town"?

Huh, Zach making that point. A small town point for Zach I reckon.

[TwoFace]

It was more of a "there's no way I can see town being that narrow minded" but seeing how he'd rather look to prove or disprove something that's not provable says to me he is that narrow minded.

[Xkfyu]

I think I'm willing to give Toto the benefit of the doubt. At least for today.

I initially thought that might be intentionally trying to divert conversations away from scum hunting, but if that's the case or if he really is just playing dumb with all this, then this is some next level shit. So, I'm starting to get the impression that all of this is genuine.

[Xkfyu]

That makes my scum pool for today Gerry, massive, Nosferatu, and Zach.

[Toto]

Thanks, I appreciate (some of) the welcoming atmosphere in this game forum.

[Toto]

If we are going to assume Dunn is town then I'd go for Zach if we are going for someone in that list.

[Naomi-Tan]

There is no encryptor; it's mechanical daytalk

This. If there was encryptor we wouldn't be told scum had daytalk.

I understand this. My point was that encryptor = daytalk for the purposes of game balance. So I'm looking at similar setups.

Regarding solving the game, I'm trying to understand if it is likely that we have a roleblocker or not. If we have a roleblocker then I agree that it is likely that they would have roleblocked Dunn, however, again, I think it's important to understand how likely it is that we are in that scenario.

In term of who I find scummy Grapes is still at the top of the list. They keep pushing my lynch without asking questions, answering my questions or trying to game solve.

Nope ~ ✿

You see, in those setups once the crpty died they lose day talk. so the balance will be different to this game. also its not announced that they has day talk so... balance wise the two setups are different.

[Naomi-Tan]

I think I'm willing to give Toto the benefit of the doubt. At least for today.

I initially thought that might be intentionally trying to divert conversations away from scum hunting, but if that's the case or if he really is just playing dumb with all this, then this is some next level shit. So, I'm starting to get the impression that all of this is genuine.

I don't like this statement. Them saying they found toto initially red off of asking about game setup stuff doesn't sit will with me for 2 reasons; Firstly we was in a slow down. there was nothing really going on as proved by a 50% of town prod, so saying it was 'diverting conversations away from scum hunting' is bs. and secondly we all know its toto's second game on site and they only have a bit of coaching so it makes sense for them to think about this as a new player.

It just doesn't sit right with me that he would get a red! read out of it...

[Xkfyu]

I think I'm willing to give Toto the benefit of the doubt. At least for today.

I initially thought that might be intentionally trying to divert conversations away from scum hunting, but if that's the case or if he really is just playing dumb with all this, then this is some next level shit. So, I'm starting to get the impression that all of this is genuine.

I don't like this statement. Them saying they found toto initially red off of asking about game setup stuff doesn't sit will with me for 2 reasons; Firstly we was in a slow down. there was nothing really going on as proved by a 50% of town prod, so saying it was 'diverting conversations away from scum hunting' is bs. and secondly we all know its toto's second game on site and they only have a bit of coaching so it makes sense for them to think about this as a new player.

It just doesn't sit right with me that he would get a red! read out of it...

You're either forgetting or choosing to ignore the fact that I was pretty convinced that Toto's inexperience was all just an act.

I'm still not wholly convinced that it isn't, but like I said, I am willing to give him the benefit of the doubt.

[Naomi-Tan]

Hey grapes thought I'd update ya, I think your green now. (though I am still way far back.) I just think if you was red you'd pushed dunn lynch harder.


Pedit; No i'm not buying that you think its an act excuse.

[Xkfyu]

Pedit; No i'm not buying that you think its an act excuse.

Whether you buy it or not is completely irrelevant.

Suppose Toto really is an alt of some experienced player, can you then see why Toto's play is scummy?

[Naomi-Tan]

Pedit; No i'm not buying that you think its an act excuse.

Whether you buy it or not is completely irrelevant.

Suppose Toto really is an alt of some experienced player, can you then see why Toto's play is scummy?

No. Im not willing to experiment with that idea. I have to self meta to avoid being D1 lynch and if someone comes in and says there not that experienced and plays not that experienced I do not think that they are red for it.

[Zachstralkita]

Im catching up right now. but I got a question for Zach. I would like you to research a Red!X and Red!Massive connection while I read up and post the results. I am also starting to get suspicious of massive and I still think X is red from yesterday. So.. could you do some leg work while I read up thanks.

I find it interesting that you asked that. I have scumreads on both of them, but if I have anything to say it would be that with the way massive plays I don't think he can be linked to anyone. Especially not in a way that seems like they would be scum.

I tend not to look too hard at partner stuff when we don't even have a red flip because I've had bad experiences with that before. Plus I said before that I don't exactly know for sure if how a player presents themselves via posts is constructed in such a way to maybe influence people either to create associations or distance themselves from certain players. And if you go off of what you think like that it can be stupid.

[Xkfyu]

Pedit; No i'm not buying that you think its an act excuse.

Whether you buy it or not is completely irrelevant.

Suppose Toto really is an alt of some experienced player, can you then see why Toto's play is scummy?

No. Im not willing to experiment with that idea. I have to self meta to avoid being D1 lynch and if someone comes in and says there not that experienced and plays not that experienced I do not think that they are red for it.

Of course you're not.

That's fine. I learned a long time ago to avoid arguments with people who are incapable of seeing things from someone else's perspective.

[massive]

Naomi

: Why would you limit your roleplaying in this game to just scum or not-scum?

How did we get away from a gerryoat lynch?