Mini 1851 : Order of the Stick Mafia - Epilogue

[Nachomamma8]

lol indeed
"mislynch" aside, you're making it look like I'm "setting up" a lynch on him when it's absolutely clear we're lynching him before endgame anyway

absolutely no reason to unless you think he's an SK who claimed JOAT-lyncher which doesn't actually make any sort of sense.

[Wisdom]

nacho pls
You've personally claimed scum to me when you act like me shooting Bulba is surprising
As such I have no reason to explain anything to you
good luck convincing the others

[Infinity 324]

I scumread shadow's catchup because most of his questions and points, even though they may have been good points, didn't seem to help him scumhunt and looked like busy work. But your answer is fair.

What's your read on me nacho?

[Infinity 324]

What I don't understand about your push on me is that your apology seemed legitimate; you seemed like you honestly regretted tunneling the shit out of me in two games in a row for two straight games, and, in this game, for just a couple blessed moments you were townreading me and apparently not falling into old habits and then suddenly you're pushing the shit out me all over again? Why?

Because you actually scum this time

When I flip town, will you vote Wisdom tomorrow?

Probably.

[SirCakez]

OH OH OH and Leon is lyncher on town... because Wisdom says so?
When I flip town, what happens?

I came up with Leon being lyncher on town first...
If you flip town then I'd reevaluate

Are you going to follow my words like they are the gospel? Are you finally going to leave me alone in future games?

Why would I do that (the gospel thing)?
I don't have some grudge against you, I think your interactions with Shadow were hella scummy and your argument with Wisdom looks like desperate scum
I'm not intentionally trying to annoy you or something

What I don't understand about your push on me is that your apology seemed legitimate; you seemed like you honestly regretted tunneling the shit out of me in two games in a row for two straight games, and, in this game, for just a couple blessed moments you were townreading me and apparently not falling into old habits and then suddenly you're pushing the shit out me all over again? Why?

I'm barely even pushing you and you're freaking out.
I don't even understand how you can compare this to the last two times (where I essentially death tunneled you).

Hopefully
P-edit: yes, it's part of why I townread him

I also want you to explain why Wisdom would shoot Bulbazak as town.

Because Wisdom is extremely impulsive as town

[Infinity 324]

But the more this interaction goes on the more confident I am that it's SvT, so if nacho flips town I'd look hard at wisdom.

"SvT" and "TvT" interactions don't exist.
People can get very confident about things and be wrong. What you should be doing is analyzing the merit of each side; when I flip town, your approach should be much less "hmmm, I guess I was wrong on Wisdom because Nacho was

super

confident" and more "oh. I guess Nacho had a point! I guess that Wisdom suddenly believing that Leon is a lyncher on town despite not having any reason to do so at all IS pretty sketchy!"

Imo, looking for SvT and TvT interactions is one of the most reliable ways to scumhunt. It's not that you're confident, more like I would expect a TvT interaction to be more intense and have more direct engagement if you know what I'm saying. Anyway, my gut is usually reliable on these things.

Wrt the lyncher on town vs scum thing, I think wisdom thinks leon is fake and isn't bothering to explain it.

[Nachomamma8]

nacho pls
You've personally claimed scum to me when you act like me shooting Bulba is surprising
As such I have no reason to explain anything to you
good luck convincing the others

from a town perspective, you pulling yourself out of a deep tunnel to shoot bulba when you did because "he was paranoid of you and it seemed fake" doesn't make sense. your explanation of "we wouldn't want to tunnel each other the whole game" also doesn't make sense; i don't see why you would take a policy shot over actually shooting a scumread and I don't see why you would talk that way about Bulba if you had a scumread on him (instead of the more reasonable "look at his pushes on me again").

As scum, the shots that made sense for you to take were also shots that were very, very easy mislynches. Bulba wasn't. They were also shots on people that weren't really suspecting you for any reason that you cared about, but Bulba's paranoia was reinforced in part by a couple people early. As far as "people that aren't fully townread yet but would be nice to get out of the way", Bulba makes a hell of a lot of sense as a shot.

As far as you pretending like me so much as suspecting you is completely unreasonable and "confirming you as scum", it's bullshit. What I was looking for when I asked you what you've done that looks town at this point is to make it patently obvious that none of this is outside of your scum range and you pretending so strongly that it is is suspicious in and of itself; as town, I don't see you going "nacho this point you brought up is wrong you're confirmed scum". As scum, it makes sense; the more you have to talk and explain, the smaller the chances of me actually getting lynched.

[Nachomamma8]

Imo, looking for SvT and TvT interactions is one of the most reliable ways to scumhunt. It's not that you're confident, more like I would expect a TvT interaction to be more intense and have more direct engagement if you know what I'm saying. Anyway, my gut is usually reliable on these things.

Wrt the lyncher on town vs scum thing, I think wisdom thinks leon is fake and isn't bothering to explain it.

It's one of my pet peeves because of how unreliable it is. It's not based on anything at all; what it looks like when people clash is based on personality far more often than alignment and how they react is typically far more indicative of an individual's alignment than it is for their interaction as a whole. I know that I'm not changing your mind on this here and now, but I hope one day that you move away from it.

If Wisdom was just gutreading Leon as fake, I think he'd be open with the fact that it was a gut read. I think that pretending like he has reasons for it is indicative of scum.

[Nachomamma8]

I scumread shadow's catchup because most of his questions and points, even though they may have been good points, didn't seem to help him scumhunt and looked like busy work. But your answer is fair.

What's your read on me nacho?

Why?

[Nachomamma8]

I came up with Leon being lyncher on town first...
If you flip town then I'd reevaluate

Why do you think Leon is a lyncher on town? Why does Wisdom?
If you flip town, then you'd reevaluate. How? Who would you look at first? Who would still be town?

[Wisdom]

true, the more I let you talk, the more it is likely you'll convince the others you're not scum. That's true for most scum.

so, in short, bullshit.

[Nachomamma8]

true, the more I let you talk, the more it is likely you'll convince the others you're not scum. That's true for most scum.

so, in short, bullshit.

if i was scum and lying or pushing dumb points like you claim I am it'd be easy for you to refute them
if you had explanations for the things you're claiming to have explanations for it'd be easy to provide them

[Wisdom]

oh, it's pretty easy
do i care to do it? no

[Nachomamma8]

Why would I do that (the gospel thing)?
I don't have some grudge against you, I think your interactions with Shadow were hella scummy and your argument with Wisdom looks like desperate scum
I'm not intentionally trying to annoy you or something

Are you going to vote Wisdom when I flip town?
Why do my interactions with Shadow look bad? Why does my argument look like desperate scum?
I'm annoyed as I am with you because every single time we've played a game together lately this has been the exact treatment I've gotten from you, and it gets old really really quickly when this is something I'm dealing with every single game. I would not be this annoyed if you were someone else or if you seemed like you didn't think when you pushed people or if it seemed like there was actually some merit in what you were saying but there isn't or if you didn't pretend like you had perfect confidence in the push against me yet again.

[Nachomamma8]

I don't even understand how you can compare this to the last two times (where I essentially death tunneled you).

so when i flip town here you're just going to shrug and go "yay, I didn't deathtunnel him!"
from the start of D2 you've been deathtunneling me
you managed to stop from deathtunneling me one whole fantastic day but you're deathtunneling me now.

[Nachomamma8]

Because Wisdom is extremely impulsive as town

this is stupid.

[Nachomamma8]

oh, it's pretty easy
do i care to do it? no

this isn't your response as town.
this isn't anyone's response as town.

[Wisdom]

predictions;
Cakez is not going to buy the AtE
Infinity is going to change his mind and vote me today
Tammy is probably going to end up townreading Nacho
farside will keep voting Nacho
kraska will continue eating up the AtE

[Infinity 324]

Imo, looking for SvT and TvT interactions is one of the most reliable ways to scumhunt. It's not that you're confident, more like I would expect a TvT interaction to be more intense and have more direct engagement if you know what I'm saying. Anyway, my gut is usually reliable on these things.

Wrt the lyncher on town vs scum thing, I think wisdom thinks leon is fake and isn't bothering to explain it.

It's one of my pet peeves because of how unreliable it is. It's not based on anything at all; what it looks like when people clash is based on personality far more often than alignment and how they react is typically far more indicative of an individual's alignment than it is for their interaction as a whole. I know that I'm not changing your mind on this here and now, but I hope one day that you move away from it.

If Wisdom was just gutreading Leon as fake, I think he'd be open with the fact that it was a gut read. I think that pretending like he has reasons for it is indicative of scum.

I'll move away from it when it stops being reliable Multiple times before I've correctly called an interaction as SvT but dismissed that feeling because I individually townread the players involved. Imo a hard thing for any scum to do is to continue an intense extended interaction--when interactions feel off like this one does it's hard to pinpoint which player is making it feel like that but there's usually scum there. Maybe nothing I'm saying is making any sense but bottom line is in my experience my gut is good at finding SvT interactions.

[Infinity 324]

I scumread shadow's catchup because most of his questions and points, even though they may have been good points, didn't seem to help him scumhunt and looked like busy work. But your answer is fair.

What's your read on me nacho?

Why?

Because I want to see if your thought process lines up.

[Wisdom]

Imo a hard thing for any scum to do is to continue an intense extended interaction

I've never found it hard to continue an intense extended interaction; instead, it's helpful in getting me townread

[Infinity 324]

Imo a hard thing for any scum to do is to continue an intense extended interaction

I've never found it hard to continue an intense extended interaction; instead, it's helpful in getting me townread

I find at least for me it wears me out quickly, and energy is my most important asset as scum.

[Infinity 324]

oh, it's pretty easy
do i care to do it? no

this isn't your response as town.
this isn't anyone's response as town.

From what I've gathered of wisdom's personality, it makes perfect sense

[Wisdom]

yep, the point is that such things depend on personality. It might hold true for you, maybe for some others like you, but you can't base scumhunting on it

but do trust your gut, by all means.

[Tammy]

Nacho - What are your thoughts about people not named Wisdom?

(I won't get a chance to get caught up until I get back home in a couple hours, but I will tonight!)