Mini 1851 : Order of the Stick Mafia - Epilogue

[Nachomamma8]

If wisdom

really

wanted to kill a specific flavor, I think he'd have demanded a claim first, which would be standard protocol anyway.

I also don't think it makes sense for a lyncher-on-town to constitute a threat to town, since that could put us in the situation where there are no groupscum and we would have to find this lyncher or just lynch his target and win together. That would be pretty silly.

Oh.
Leon, you thought that Wisdom was a lyncher on town?

[Nachomamma8]

the feeling you gave me at gog too.

Game here and gog game are extraordinarily different games; what are you referring to in particular?

[Nachomamma8]

peregrine, he did shoot shaddow

So then Leon is pretty much as claimed.

And the missing scumkill hit BP Tammy?



I don't think my reads have changed much since yesterday. But, want to look over Shaddow posts and hear from Nacho.

Probably. Interesting in seeing what you manage to produce; my warm glow over "happy spammy Peregrine" has mostly faded.

[Nachomamma8]

Or Xykon just has some kind of death resistance.

This doesn't really help things because strongman.

[Infinity 324]

after she said she'd try to improve,

Why does her saying she'd try to improve mean anything to you?

Because she doesn't look like she's trying to improve.

i still wanna know how "if nacho hasnt posted it might mean wisdom scum" makes sense

Also general reminder to explain this now that I've posted although it's mostly for curiosity's sake.

Yeah I kinda said that too early but I was expecting you and wisdom to start engaging given his turnaround and even more so now with you thinking he's town if you guys were in fact both town. My logic was off though since it's only really scummy if both sides do it but I only saw one side so yeah.

ffs you guys Nacho just threw out a shitload of AtE then started lurking and it's working! It reminds of Musical Mafia where he did the same thing as part of the Pied Piper and nearly got away, but Cerberus saved the game.

Meta!


Using Musical Mafia as an example of my scum play is sort of a poor example when another head was the primary posting head.

Many sheeping without explaining coming and I feel myself hating this game more because all I see is apparently it's ok to add a vote for shitty reasons but I have to jump through hoops to explain myself more then anyone else does in this game.

I seriously wish someone at the end of this game to explain why that happens because currently it's the last straw for me at this point where I want nothing to to with mafia any more.

Don't really see these two things coming from scum-Farside.
Surprised that others do.

It seems genuine but that doesn't mean it's necessarily town.

[Infinity 324]

Shadow, your question to me was already addressed and answered.

I'm ok with shadow votes. His questions don't seem to be written in an attempt to gamesolve, they're more trying to look busy and defending himself. And to add on to the list of hypocritical things I've said this game, I don't really like shadow taking seriously tammy not moving her vote. To be fair, this time tammy clearly said that it was for fun. It just looks like an attempt to look busy.

Ok I've convinced myself

VOTE: shadow

I'm not a fan of voting someone with 3 posts on page 25, though I will check again what those posts are...

What do you think of this reasoning?

Can you explain your read on cakez throughout the game, including when and why you dropped your scumread on him and what your read on him is now?

So basically you didn't read my large post where I said things in regards to cakez?
Or you don't get it?

Sorry, I must have missed it

[farside22]

Meh, I guess MoI pretty much confirmed the stabbing flavor in the Bulb death scene.

Alright, ok with calling wisdom town for now.

Would nacho have shot tammy? Maybe.

Farside would have extra special interest in that one.

Meh, you might just be right wis.

No and no.
Wifom means nothing to me.
Flavor means dick and letting Wisdom live into lylo is the worst thing I see in this.
Like if anyone should be copped it should be wis because of how blind players are to him.
Ignoring those players that are dead town are just shameful.

I'm not sure but I think the questions ask was in regards to why nacho is scum. If so I'm already scum reading nacho and if he is scum the kraska would be a solid null.
Wisdom is still my number 1 scum suspect.

[farside22]

Zzzzzzzzzzzz

I feel like I'm being pranked this game.
I don't even get what wis point is.

I'm just being stubborn

also I wanna note this is fake
If you were town and you knew you are being stubborn you would stop it and look at things with a clear mind
Instead you just want to be perceived as stubborn town

Yeah the rest of the snip out was more important.
But keep ignoring hark.
I'll just rant at you post game about being blind.

These two posts in particular feel different from farside's reaction in Duck Duck Goose - there she seemed more restrained, and threatened to rant instead of actually ranting. I think her push back is unreasonable in general but the conviction in it feels real.

Listen, I'm not sure about you but a 180 switch does happen.
I'm going to bring up biker wars as an example.
Parama suddenly stopped scum reading me to just switch back.
If multiple players still scum read you and wisdom as scum can just push a mislynch on me today, fake I guess I was wrong and go back to calling you scum, how is that anything at all when he was never satisfied with your response in the first place?
That's why the switch reads fake as fuck.

So he pushed nacho and Shadow but pushed others above them.
Also he did what infinity did in poker mafia, which is ask a player what they think of scum and then accuse the player of having said read.
It's basically a trap when scum ask the question and then uses said comment later to call that player scum.

Wisdom's also had significant pushes on Leonshade and Grey. Why do you think that him pushing me means that we're scum together? Don't you think that it'd be a smarter idea to ram through mislynches on PV and Cakez if we were scum together (since a Wisdom-me scumteam controls most of where the discussion of the day is focused)?
I also don't remember Wisdom using the "trap" on anyone but me - refresh me memory?

Wis asked me about shadow used my response to build a case.
I see that happen more from scum then town.
What i mean is not the question itself but knowing scum buddy is scum then using said feedback later.

[Infinity 324]

Can you summarize your case on wisdom farside and we can talk about it? I promise if you flip own I'll seriously consider it.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Vote Count 2.11

- as of post 1808

farside22 (3) - Wisdom, Infinity 324, Leonshade
Wisdom (2) - Nachomamma8, farside22
SirCakez (1) - kraska77
Nachomamma8 (1) - SirCakez

Not Voting (3) - PeregrineV, Tammy, Kagami

The Current deadline is December 4th at 12pm EST in (expired on 2016-12-04 12:00:00)

With 10 alive - 6 are required to lynch.

Activity Check

- All good currently.

V/LA List

-

None currently

[Kagami]

Why are you townreading Peregrine? Where did your townread on farside go?

Re-evaluating farside, my prior reasons for townreading her were not terribly concrete, while we're moving into a more fact-based gamestate.

Peregrine is of interest, but it still strikes me as odd that he'd go from non-existent to strong town between 600 and 603 as a buddy. I also think shadow's awkward RVS post is more about appearing to make the best choice for town than it is a buddy vote.

We don't know flavor was necessary to perform the kill, or if any post was required at all.

No team evil member stabs people, which is part of why I'm concerned about it. It seems like very poor design to have an dayvig-flavor IC.

Dayvig-flavor godfather also seems pretty strange to me unless I'm misunderstanding you in a big way.

Misunderstanding, apparently.

If Dayvig-flavor godfather is strange to you, why were so gung-ho on scum-wisdom? Does 1381 still represent the depth of your (former?) wisdom scumread?

[Kagami]

Or Xykon just has some kind of death resistance.

This doesn't really help things because strongman.

I was postulating something more extreme, like, doesn't flip on death and revives next phase or something.

From the looks of things, MoI is more the sort of mod who uses conventional roles, though, so a lot of those theories are out (including my favorite wisdom kill explanation, which would be hilarious: Exploding Rune).

[farside22]

Would be interested in hearing about farside's reasons for hard townreading Cakez if they still apply.

Are you scum reading him?
I ask because all I saw in catch up was accusing him of tunneling, which is hypocrisy at best and wrong at worst.

As for scum his scum game is more weak pushes and lack of content. I see none of that here and I also have yet to see anyone express why they are scum reading him other then some association with me where neither of us are dead.
I don't expect many really think about that but I have a higher expectation from infinity who called me out day 1 fit association.
That's just me bitching though.

[farside22]

after she said she'd try to improve,

Why does her saying she'd try to improve mean anything to you?

Because she doesn't look like she's trying to improve.

i still wanna know how "if nacho hasnt posted it might mean wisdom scum" makes sense

Also general reminder to explain this now that I've posted although it's mostly for curiosity's sake.

Yeah I kinda said that too early but I was expecting you and wisdom to start engaging given his turnaround and even more so now with you thinking he's town if you guys were in fact both town. My logic was off though since it's only really scummy if both sides do it but I only saw one side so yeah.

ffs you guys Nacho just threw out a shitload of AtE then started lurking and it's working! It reminds of Musical Mafia where he did the same thing as part of the Pied Piper and nearly got away, but Cerberus saved the game.

Meta!


Using Musical Mafia as an example of my scum play is sort of a poor example when another head was the primary posting head.

Many sheeping without explaining coming and I feel myself hating this game more because all I see is apparently it's ok to add a vote for shitty reasons but I have to jump through hoops to explain myself more then anyone else does in this game.

I seriously wish someone at the end of this game to explain why that happens because currently it's the last straw for me at this point where I want nothing to to with mafia any more.

Don't really see these two things coming from scum-Farside.
Surprised that others do.

It seems genuine but that doesn't mean it's necessarily town.

You should read blood wars. This is an improvement for me.
I felt that game spamming the thread repeating my point and engaging wasn't working so I'm doing less spamming and keeping my emotions on lock down.

Can you summarize your case on wisdom farside and we can talk about it? I promise if you flip own I'll seriously consider it.

Ill make this a priority today.
Just give me a few hours.

Why are you townreading Peregrine? Where did your townread on farside go?

Re-evaluating farside, my prior reasons for townreading her were not terribly concrete, while we're moving into a more fact-based gamestate.

Peregrine is of interest, but it still strikes me as odd that he'd go from non-existent to strong town between 600 and 603 as a buddy. I also think shadow's awkward RVS post is more about appearing to make the best choice for town than it is a buddy vote.

We don't know flavor was necessary to perform the kill, or if any post was required at all.

No team evil member stabs people, which is part of why I'm concerned about it. It seems like very poor design to have an dayvig-flavor IC.

Dayvig-flavor godfather also seems pretty strange to me unless I'm misunderstanding you in a big way.

Misunderstanding, apparently.

If Dayvig-flavor godfather is strange to you, why were so gung-ho on scum-wisdom? Does 1381 still represent the depth of your (former?) wisdom scumread?

This is incredibly vague.
What facts do you agree with and why?

[Infinity 324]

Would be interested in hearing about farside's reasons for hard townreading Cakez if they still apply.

Are you scum reading him?
I ask because all I saw in catch up was accusing him of tunneling, which is hypocrisy at best and wrong at worst.

As for scum his scum game is more weak pushes and lack of content. I see none of that here and I also have yet to see anyone express why they are scum reading him other then some association with me where neither of us are dead.
I don't expect many really think about that but I have a higher expectation from infinity who called me out day 1 fit association.
That's just me bitching though.

pre-flip speculation is a lot different that assuming someone's alignment for your reads.

[Kagami]

@farside

To my mind it is a fact that:

MoI did not allow for a reasonable chance that the game ends N1, which is highly possible if we take the current situation at face value.
Wisdom did indeed "Stab" bulbazak, and MoI substantially played along with the flavor of the kill if wisdom had any choice.
Wisdom did in fact suffer a penalty for making the kill.
(obviously) Bulb and Wraith/GI were Town, shadow was scum.

It is Highly Probable that:

There is no suitable flavor on the scumteam for the stabbing, so for wisdom to be scum, MoI deliberately designed the role to deceive the Town and went to the trouble of pushing that through bulb's death scene.
Leon killed shadow.
Tammy is BP/Vig, with limitations known to kraska.
Tammy was shot and thus Tammy and Kraska are town.
--- the alternative is that no shot was made, either to make Kraska+Tammy appear to be town and/or because scum had no NK on N1

[Kagami]

Simplest explanation for everything might just be that Leon is Xykon, with a conventional Roy fakeclaim which he embellished upon, and they decided offing shadow was worth the sacrifice.

[Kagami]

pre-flip speculation is a lot different that assuming someone's alignment for your reads.

That's usually exactly what people mean when they say "pre-flip speculation."

[Infinity 324]

That's usually exactly what people mean when they say "pre-flip speculation."

That would be "pre-flip association"

What I did is more like "if farside is scum, who could be her buddy?"

[farside22]

Sorry I got side tracked.
A few things that I have that point to Wisdom scum.
1) the kill on bulba over his strong scum read.
2) only one death night 1 and that was on scum which even though this is more hypothetically then anything, lack of second death could be because Wisdom scum used his kill day 1 for the scum team.
3) during the tunnel on nacho at no point did Wisdom read as though he was satisfied with nachos response and sudden switch reads fake.
4) weak meta and lack of really trying to figure players out.
That last one is biggest one since with walking dead he did more interaction and understanding and this game is just attacking weak points.
5) bulba he was town and he attack Wisdom and found him scum. You can ignore everything else but a dead townies is something to consider when looking for truth in players.
He said Wisdom was known for bussing and saw issues with wisdom. Before bulba could expand and be more involved he was killed.
I know this is part of repeating point 1 but after replacing into a game called first mafia I know bulba can read deeper then others when he's town.

[farside22]

@farside

To my mind it is a fact that:

MoI did not allow for a reasonable chance that the game ends N1, which is highly possible if we take the current situation at face value.
Wisdom did indeed "Stab" bulbazak, and MoI substantially played along with the flavor of the kill if wisdom had any choice.
Wisdom did in fact suffer a penalty for making the kill.
(obviously) Bulb and Wraith/GI were Town, shadow was scum.

It is Highly Probable that:

There is no suitable flavor on the scumteam for the stabbing, so for wisdom to be scum, MoI deliberately designed the role to deceive the Town and went to the trouble of pushing that through bulb's death scene.
Leon killed shadow.
Tammy is BP/Vig, with limitations known to kraska.
Tammy was shot and thus Tammy and Kraska are town.
--- the alternative is that no shot was made, either to make Kraska+Tammy appear to be town and/or because scum had no NK on N1

Silly question.

How do you know Tammy was shot?

[farside22]

Would be interested in hearing about farside's reasons for hard townreading Cakez if they still apply.

Are you scum reading him?
I ask because all I saw in catch up was accusing him of tunneling, which is hypocrisy at best and wrong at worst.

As for scum his scum game is more weak pushes and lack of content. I see none of that here and I also have yet to see anyone express why they are scum reading him other then some association with me where neither of us are dead.
I don't expect many really think about that but I have a higher expectation from infinity who called me out day 1 fit association.
That's just me bitching though.

pre-flip speculation is a lot different that assuming someone's alignment for your reads.

I'm not seeing the difference.
Wisdom called Cakez scum with me because my read on him.
That's (1) weak shit to go off considering his town reads of players are for crap reason and (2) is still an association pre flip.

[Kagami]

...

Tammy was shot and thus Tammy and Kraska are town.
--- the alternative is that no shot was made, either to make Kraska+Tammy appear to be town and/or because scum had no NK on N1

Silly question.

How do you know Tammy was shot?

If scum was able to shoot last night and shot at town, that's the most likely explanation for the lack of a death. I put it as highly probable because it's not certain within a reasonable measure that that happened.

[Leonshade]

Prodge, content tomorrow.

[Kagami]

I want to entertain wisdom-SK, but I don't think it makes sense for there to be a killing penalty then, and I don't think MoI would have added the last bit to 730 if there weren't one.