Mini 1851 : Order of the Stick Mafia - Epilogue

[Infinity 324]

1) the kill on bulba over his strong scum read.

See, I can buy it as impulsive town who justifies is by saying "I was gonna tunnel him all game"

2) only one death night 1 and that was on scum which even though this is more hypothetically then anything, lack of second death could be because Wisdom scum used his kill day 1 for the scum team.

I think it's also likely tammy was shot but sure

3) during the tunnel on nacho at no point did Wisdom read as though he was satisfied with nachos response and sudden switch reads fake.

Seeing a different narrative can really change your perspective on things, and that's what seemed to have happened when wisdom saw the narrative of you/cakez being scum. IT actually makes a lot of sense as a town mindset imo.

4) weak meta and lack of really trying to figure players out.
That last one is biggest one since with walking dead he did more interaction and understanding and this game is just attacking weak points.

I wasn't in that game of course, but when I played with wisdom before I remembered him being more attacking than questioning as well.

5) bulba he was town and he attack Wisdom and found him scum. You can ignore everything else but a dead townies is something to consider when looking for truth in players.
He said Wisdom was known for bussing and saw issues with wisdom. Before bulba could expand and be more involved he was killed.
I know this is part of repeating point 1 but after replacing into a game called first mafia I know bulba can read deeper then others when he's town.

Ok.

[Infinity 324]

Would be interested in hearing about farside's reasons for hard townreading Cakez if they still apply.

Are you scum reading him?
I ask because all I saw in catch up was accusing him of tunneling, which is hypocrisy at best and wrong at worst.

As for scum his scum game is more weak pushes and lack of content. I see none of that here and I also have yet to see anyone express why they are scum reading him other then some association with me where neither of us are dead.
I don't expect many really think about that but I have a higher expectation from infinity who called me out day 1 fit association.
That's just me bitching though.

pre-flip speculation is a lot different that assuming someone's alignment for your reads.

I'm not seeing the difference.
Wisdom called Cakez scum with me because my read on him.
That's (1) weak shit to go off considering his town reads of players are for crap reason and (2) is still an association pre flip.

I'm talking about my behavior, not wisdom's behavior.

[Infinity 324]

specifically, my behavior in 1561

[Tammy]

Was hoping for something way more from Nacho.

He's probably just scum

I thought it was funny that you brought up that you felt like me in Three Little Pigs because my first thought when I read this was that I understood how you felt in Three Little Pigs (although I'm obviously not as annoyed as you were). I understand why you were expecting the full catchup to happen Monday, but I don't think that it not happening should be a surprise and I don't think that "he is scum and putting this game off because he is scum" is a reasonable explanation for an absence there.

I probably can't post why I think this is a slimy post until tomorrow but I never said you're putting this game off because you're scum and I think you know that.

The jazz hands, the energy, the town aura just aren't hitting it. It's bugging me.

[Nachomamma8]

I'll be here tomorrow, probably maybe, and hopefully nacho will have posted then.

Was hoping for something way more from Nacho.

He's probably just scum

This is what you said in combination; I don't think that "I am disappointed that you didn't catch up today" is at all a leap or a reach from what you said. When I asked you what you were expecting in particular to see if I was interpreting things wrong, you didn't clarify and instead just quoted yourself again.

[Tammy]

Yes you're right because that is all I've said about you this entire game day, and Kraska definitely didn't point out I expressed paranoia of you in the neighborhood.

[Nachomamma8]

But I wasn't talking about your paranoia on me over the entire game day. I was talking about a moment.

[Tammy]

You were reducing my suspicion to something that seemed ridiculous so you could brush it aside.

[Nachomamma8]

No, I was responding to your suspicion in a moment, just how you were describing how you felt in a moment.

[Infinity 324]

I guess what I don't understand and what I think nacho doesn't understand is why you put the "I was expecting more" and "nacho is scum" in the same post if they're unrelated.

[Nachomamma8]

Nothing that I've posted this game has said or implied that the reason you were bothered with me is because I didn't post one day; I was saying that you had a flash of paranoia because of me not posting for one day and I'm guessing my response was similar to yours when I had a similar push on you at MTGS.

[Nachomamma8]

I guess what I don't understand and what I think nacho doesn't understand is why you put the "I was expecting more" and "nacho is scum" in the same post if they're unrelated.

When she said she was expecting more she was referring to my play as a whole.
When she said she was expecting more I thought she meant it literally.

[Infinity 324]

Was hoping for something way more from Nacho

You mean this part? I thought it was just in reference to how you hadn't caught up.

[Nachomamma8]

Was hoping for something way more from Nacho

You mean this part? I thought it was just in reference to how you hadn't caught up.

Yep.

[Infinity 324]

Then I don't get your issue with what she said.

[Nachomamma8]

Because she doesn't look like she's trying to improve.

I don't think that following through with promises to improve is particularly indicative of alignment. I don't think that someone saying that they are going to stop overreacting means that they're going to stop overreacting; generally, the reason why they overreact has something to do with their personality or is fairly entrenched and isn't going to change just because someone says it is. There are plenty of times when people say they are going to do something and then they don't do it; New Year's is famous for this sort of thing.

It seems genuine but that doesn't mean it's necessarily town.

You're right that farside could be annoyed because she's being held to a higher standard than townies and that this is "caught for the wrong reasons" scum farside, but the way it unfolded didn't really feel that way and it feels like there's a big enough gap between this response and Duck Duck Goose where, again, she'd have to be going pretty deep if she was scum. The situation that she's set up is basically that people are voting her are causing her to quit playing mafia which, if intentional, is like an exceptional form of emotional terrorism. I think scum are less likely to set up their emotions like this because they feel like they're being darkly manipulative whereas townies are more likely to say it because it feels like they're being attacked unfairly. Does this make sense at all?

[Nachomamma8]

Then I don't get your issue with what she said.

Out of game reasoning.

[Nachomamma8]

Which boils down to she's familiar with me and my schedule so I'd imagine that she'd understand better why the Monday catchup didn't happen than other people would.

[Infinity 324]

Because she doesn't look like she's trying to improve.

I don't think that following through with promises to improve is particularly indicative of alignment. I don't think that someone saying that they are going to stop overreacting means that they're going to stop overreacting; generally, the reason why they overreact has something to do with their personality or is fairly entrenched and isn't going to change just because someone says it is. There are plenty of times when people say they are going to do something and then they don't do it; New Year's is famous for this sort of thing.

It seems genuine but that doesn't mean it's necessarily town.

You're right that farside could be annoyed because she's being held to a higher standard than townies and that this is "caught for the wrong reasons" scum farside, but the way it unfolded didn't really feel that way and it feels like there's a big enough gap between this response and Duck Duck Goose where, again, she'd have to be going pretty deep if she was scum. The situation that she's set up is basically that people are voting her are causing her to quit playing mafia which, if intentional, is like an exceptional form of emotional terrorism. I think scum are less likely to set up their emotions like this because they feel like they're being darkly manipulative whereas townies are more likely to say it because it feels like they're being attacked unfairly. Does this make sense at all?

For the first part, there's quite a big difference between trying to improve and actually improving--just the time where see was trying to productively engage (which to be fair, she started doing with me again) seemed to me to be too short to be a legitimate attempt. (Really sorry farside if you are in fact town and trying to improve).

For the second part, that does make sense, specifically the the part about quitting mafia.

[Infinity 324]

Which boils down to she's familiar with me and my schedule so I'd imagine that she'd understand better why the Monday catchup didn't happen than other people would.

There's still stuff I don't really understand but it's better if you just talk to her about it at this point.

[Infinity 324]

Shadow, your question to me was already addressed and answered.

I'm ok with shadow votes. His questions don't seem to be written in an attempt to gamesolve, they're more trying to look busy and defending himself. And to add on to the list of hypocritical things I've said this game, I don't really like shadow taking seriously tammy not moving her vote. To be fair, this time tammy clearly said that it was for fun. It just looks like an attempt to look busy.

Ok I've convinced myself

VOTE: shadow

I'm not a fan of voting someone with 3 posts on page 25, though I will check again what those posts are...

What do you think of this reasoning?

Can you explain your read on cakez throughout the game, including when and why you dropped your scumread on him and what your read on him is now?

So basically you didn't read my large post where I said things in regards to cakez?
Or you don't get it?

Farside, can you quote this please?

[Nachomamma8]

Listen, I'm not sure about you but a 180 switch does happen.
I'm going to bring up biker wars as an example.
Parama suddenly stopped scum reading me to just switch back.
If multiple players still scum read you and wisdom as scum can just push a mislynch on me today, fake I guess I was wrong and go back to calling you scum, how is that anything at all when he was never satisfied with your response in the first place?
That's why the switch reads fake as fuck.

No one's denying that 180 switches happen from scum, but they happen from both alignments and so saying "haha! he switched his read!" on its own doesn't really form a case.
You point out that he can hypothetically switch, push to mislynch you, then swap back to me after he's dead, and sure I guess he can do that, but look at the situation in full.

When he backed off, he gave reasoning for backing off, and in particular, he backed off on his strongest reason for calling me scum and said that his other reason wasn't "a major part of his reasoning". If he jumps back on, he needs justification for returning that he didn't have before - this is him as scum making an already hard job harder than it should be. You're also kind of making me seem like a poor, defenseless baby bird here; I don't know if you've seen me mislynched before, but when I do I usually go down kicking, screaming, throwing my shoes down hallways. Wisdom is letting go of a bird in hand to chase a bird in a bush and sort of assuming that it will still be there when he needs it later; can't really see that happening, especially when you've been a decent townread of a good number of players for a solid section of the game and especially when you're the type of player who tends to push back hard.

And I mean, sure, it's possible like anything is possible but I feel like you're discounting the viewing the "leave and come back" route as a hell of a lot easier than it actually is.

[Infinity 324]

The thing is I would expect town!farside to directly respond to my thing about her not improving. She did give an explanation for being not being as engaged, which would kind of count, but I guess I was expecting more than that, idk

PEdit: I agree with the above.

[Nachomamma8]

Wis asked me about shadow used my response to build a case.
I see that happen more from scum then town.
What i mean is not the question itself but knowing scum buddy is scum then using said feedback later.

I can't say that I think it's very likely he was setting up a mislynch on a top townread 500 posts down the road, and I don't think that he would have been able to convincingly push most responses that you had there. I would also be more likely to buy into this read if he brought it up more than once, but, from what I can find, it was a point he brought up once and exactly once (his main points were different), and I'm not sure that a player spends that long setting and springing a comment and the only use that they get out of it is a throwaway comment.

[Nachomamma8]

Peregrine is of interest, but it still strikes me as odd that he'd go from non-existent to strong town between 600 and 603 as a buddy. I also think shadow's awkward RVS post is more about appearing to make the best choice for town than it is a buddy vote.

I'm more of a fan of the RVS vote reasoning than I am of the read switch reasoning, but I don't weight either of them too heavily; there is a lot more depth in other reads when this one can be broken fairly solidly by shaddowez making an odd move/not thinking about things a whole lot.