Mini 1851 : Order of the Stick Mafia - Epilogue

[PantherPunt]

We should get the replacement caught up and just lynch someone already. I think town is a little bit stuck. Not to mention the deadline obviously

Sorry panther someone else can do that because it's just too much to sift through for my brain now

ya no worries I'll get there. I never give cliffs when people ask, personally

you may or may not recall my penchant for focusing on small details, but this post of yours is pinging me

first sentence because it's like you're not considering that I could be scum. which makes me think you're scum that knows I'm town

second sentence because "town" vs. "we" tells etc. These aren't foolproof bc some people just talk like that, but it always jumps out at me

Actually you were scum when we played before and I don't remember you focusing on details.

Re: the first sentence, I don't see how that assumed you're town, I don't know so we should catch you up in case you're town. I don't see why you wouldn't.

Would like a response for this

sorry missed it. didn't get a preview when I posted??

I couldn't remember what game I played with you so I just looked. that was super lackluster scum performance by me. so my mistake, ya you wouldn't have seen me focusing on nitty stuff. that's one thing I'm fairly self-aware that I have trouble replicating as scum

re: re: the first sentence, it felt that way from saying that I should be 'caught up' as if you know I care to be caught up in the interest of solving the game. and actually now that peregrine pointed out your recent post, it sounds like you have no consideration to having me lynched despite previously wanting to do so to my slot

I felt like you were actually super obvtown that game despite not being consensusly read like that early on, so I'm not worried about you just yet. your style is kinda coming back to me so I'll get there on you one way or another, whatever you are

[Nachomamma8]

I'm down to lynch that guy

It was something that was explored earlier and cast aside for good reasons.

[PantherPunt]

Now that I think about it though, isn't the simple explanation that he's either telling the truth or some other 3p and wisdom is scum?

That's the simple explanation. I don't think that it's a true one.

Fair, but the other ones are weird enough that I'd give it at least some weight.

For panther, here'a the issue. Someone brought up a quote from MoI a while ago where he said it was terrible setup design to have the game potentially end by n1, which is what leon's role and wisdom's role together make possible. So the explanations are

-wisdom is scum
-leon is lyncher on town and that constitutes a threat to town, so the game continues while he's alive
-MoI went against what he said earlier
-Leon is mafia and killed his own member for towncred

real quick, how can their claims have made it possible for the game to end n1?

I saw from wisdom he could daykill and if he kills town it requires one less vote to lynch him (hated). is that the entirety of it? does hated modifier stick for rest of game or was it just d1

[PantherPunt]

I'm down to lynch that guy

It was something that was explored earlier and cast aside for good reasons.

good reasons being..

[PantherPunt]

I'm down to lynch that guy

It was something that was explored earlier and cast aside for good reasons.

good reasons being..

I really haven't given it much thought yet so pardon me while I ask to have my handheld til I feel like I'm in this bitch

[Nachomamma8]

Plus, if you were the NK last night, Nacho makes more sense as scum, since you guys have that readback-feedback-reverb thing going on.

Tammy is a threat to me when I am scum, yes, but I also try not to kill her when I can avoid it and this temptation would be especially strong when she's had a long streak of scum games that have made her miserable and finally got to be town in this one.

[Nachomamma8]

Listen, I'm not sure about you but a 180 switch does happen.
I'm going to bring up biker wars as an example.
Parama suddenly stopped scum reading me to just switch back.
If multiple players still scum read you and wisdom as scum can just push a mislynch on me today, fake I guess I was wrong and go back to calling you scum, how is that anything at all when he was never satisfied with your response in the first place?
That's why the switch reads fake as fuck.

No one's denying that 180 switches happen from scum, but they happen from both alignments and so saying "haha! he switched his read!" on its own doesn't really form a case.
You point out that he can hypothetically switch, push to mislynch you, then swap back to me after he's dead, and sure I guess he can do that, but look at the situation in full.

When he backed off, he gave reasoning for backing off, and in particular, he backed off on his strongest reason for calling me scum and said that his other reason wasn't "a major part of his reasoning". If he jumps back on, he needs justification for returning that he didn't have before - this is him as scum making an already hard job harder than it should be. You're also kind of making me seem like a poor, defenseless baby bird here; I don't know if you've seen me mislynched before, but when I do I usually go down kicking, screaming, throwing my shoes down hallways. Wisdom is letting go of a bird in hand to chase a bird in a bush and sort of assuming that it will still be there when he needs it later; can't really see that happening, especially when you've been a decent townread of a good number of players for a solid section of the game and especially when you're the type of player who tends to push back hard.

And I mean, sure, it's possible like anything is possible but I feel like you're discounting the viewing the "leave and come back" route as a hell of a lot easier than it actually is.

^wisdom town

If you're looking for something more in depth then you will have to wait until I have the chance to post things on the computer.

[Nachomamma8]

This is probably a good time to go over those wisdom and farside-slot reads, Nacho. We can skip the infinity read.

I will go over those reads when I had the chance, but I would also very deeply appreciate it if you engaged what I put forth.

[Infinity 324]

Now that I think about it though, isn't the simple explanation that he's either telling the truth or some other 3p and wisdom is scum?

That's the simple explanation. I don't think that it's a true one.

Fair, but the other ones are weird enough that I'd give it at least some weight.

For panther, here'a the issue. Someone brought up a quote from MoI a while ago where he said it was terrible setup design to have the game potentially end by n1, which is what leon's role and wisdom's role together make possible. So the explanations are

-wisdom is scum
-leon is lyncher on town and that constitutes a threat to town, so the game continues while he's alive
-MoI went against what he said earlier
-Leon is mafia and killed his own member for towncred

real quick, how can their claims have made it possible for the game to end n1?

I saw from wisdom he could daykill and if he kills town it requires one less vote to lynch him (hated). is that the entirety of it? does hated modifier stick for rest of game or was it just d1

Dayvig scum + scum lynch + vig scum = dead scumteam

Now that I think about it, there could be a traitor too I guess.

Not sure about the hated part

[Nachomamma8]

Wasn't trying to piggyback, it was a comment I wanted to make.

No. You quoted her post, you said "DING DING DING" like you agreed and understood what she was saying and then started talking about something completely different.

[Nachomamma8]

DING DING DING is a "you are exactly right!" sound and if this is honestly an argument I have to have with you right now I'm going to drown myself in a bathtub of tears when I get home

[PantherPunt]

Listen, I'm not sure about you but a 180 switch does happen.
I'm going to bring up biker wars as an example.
Parama suddenly stopped scum reading me to just switch back.
If multiple players still scum read you and wisdom as scum can just push a mislynch on me today, fake I guess I was wrong and go back to calling you scum, how is that anything at all when he was never satisfied with your response in the first place?
That's why the switch reads fake as fuck.

No one's denying that 180 switches happen from scum, but they happen from both alignments and so saying "haha! he switched his read!" on its own doesn't really form a case.
You point out that he can hypothetically switch, push to mislynch you, then swap back to me after he's dead, and sure I guess he can do that, but look at the situation in full.

When he backed off, he gave reasoning for backing off, and in particular, he backed off on his strongest reason for calling me scum and said that his other reason wasn't "a major part of his reasoning". If he jumps back on, he needs justification for returning that he didn't have before - this is him as scum making an already hard job harder than it should be. You're also kind of making me seem like a poor, defenseless baby bird here; I don't know if you've seen me mislynched before, but when I do I usually go down kicking, screaming, throwing my shoes down hallways. Wisdom is letting go of a bird in hand to chase a bird in a bush and sort of assuming that it will still be there when he needs it later; can't really see that happening, especially when you've been a decent townread of a good number of players for a solid section of the game and especially when you're the type of player who tends to push back hard.

And I mean, sure, it's possible like anything is possible but I feel like you're discounting the viewing the "leave and come back" route as a hell of a lot easier than it actually is.

^wisdom town

If you're looking for something more in depth then you will have to wait until I have the chance to post things on the computer.

oh I meant before that I'm down to lynch the claimed 3p guy. which I think is leon whereas you're talking about wisdom it seems

I guess I'll have a more concrete opinion on that when I'm not working with more than like 3% of post absorption

[PantherPunt]

what the rest of the lyncher JOAT abilities outside of his vig shot? or not claimed?

[Infinity 324]

BP and flavor cop

[SirCakez]

Wasn't trying to piggyback, it was a comment I wanted to make.

No. You quoted her post, you said "DING DING DING" like you agreed and understood what she was saying and then started talking about something completely different.

yes the ding ding ding was a comment on the quote and the other stuff was a separate comment
That's why I spaced them out

[Kagami]

This is probably a good time to go over those wisdom and farside-slot reads, Nacho. We can skip the infinity read.

I will go over those reads when I had the chance, but I would also very deeply appreciate it if you engaged what I put forth.

As I'm sure you're aware, I don't care much for engaging unless I expect useful responses.

I generally disagree with the validity of the reasons for your reads, even with those where we agree with the conclusion. Your versions seem hand-waved and shallow, despite being expressed with an air of confidence.

I find your 1381 to present a completely silly interpretation of wisdom's actions where better ones exist. I find your explanation for your reversal of that read extremely weak, together with your other townreads, and I don't see how you can legitimately claim a PoE strategy when there's no reason you can justify any confidence in your reasoning for them.

You exist in a very suspicious place in 600, where shadow had no reason to place you as town. There was very little suspicion on you, and he had every reason to place you in a more appeasing "townlean" zone given you seemed to be paying some attention to him without presenting a scumread.

While in vanilla nightless, you were very keen to analyze my readslist upon your being quickhammered, here you don't care about shaddow's, despite him appearing a much less comfortable scum player. His 600 is very likely to be an off-the-cuff scum-readlist which he felt needed to be corrected, hence the quick revision.

You don't seem especially interested in analyzing any shadow interaction whatsoever, despite apparently only believing in SvS interactions.

Your tammy interactions almost entirely belie "I don't want you to vote me" rather than "I want to work together since you're pretty much 100% town."

I also can't imagine that you actually believe that my choosing not to present rationale for my nacho read and trying to think through the wisdom/leon thing is somehow indicative of my scum-self.

[kraska77]

Hey guys cakes is still not at l-1
Can we atleast make this happen today ffs look at all his recent posts how can u not see he's scum

Probably won't log in and post at all before deadline is up. Lynch cakes thx

[Wisdom]

@Wisdom

- Why did you shoot Bulba again? I was looking through and he was a townread in most all your posts.

Long answer: 1504

Short answer: His read was starting to feel fake and his talking about me manipulative as I had already indicated in posts like 562 and his 730 was more of the same - plus the fact I can't read or deal with Bulba so removing him from the game helps me even if he isn't scum.

[Wisdom]

I saw from wisdom he could daykill and if he kills town it requires one less vote to lynch him (hated). is that the entirety of it? does hated modifier stick for rest of game or was it just d1

rest of the game

[Wisdom]

2 days left

I'm good with either Cakez or Nacho or even Leon being lynched

[Leonshade]

Phone prodge on computer later.

[Tammy]

tammy, him ignoring ur concerns about him earlier today means little bc there was nothing really to address there. its like u would come and say 'hmm i think nacho might be scum'. do u expect him to vacuously reassure u hes town? idk i just dont think its that big of a deal

Why are you running interference for nacho here? If you accept that we try not to kill each other night one, which you do since that your big lead into why he's town, then how can you not accept there is a certain expectation for types of interactions there?

Nacho literally pretending I'm not playing this game is a red flag. It's not about not commenting on the concerns I have about him, which I would expect him to in some fashion if he were town, but it's also about him not commenting about any of my thoughts on other people. I'd also funnily enough have expected him to respond to your post if he were town. I have suspicions on farside and suspicions on cakez, but he has not interacted with me on either of those things because he's pretending I'm not here. Now I didn't say that my suspicions on farside were starting to waver a bit, so there was no reason for him to not question me on my concern there or point out where he thought I was wrong. And there's absolutely no attempt to get me on cakez with him as he completely ignored my concerns on cakez, whom he's supposedly scum reading. Even if he disagrees with my reasons for my concerns, I'd expect some type of interaction with me about it.

He ignored all of that to only bother to interact with me when I pointed out that he was ignoring me. After yesterday being interested in talking to me about his reads and saying he wouldn't abandon me this game. Pretty much the only thing he has interacted with me about since I pointed out that he's pretending I'm not here is his interpretation of me saying he was scum because he wasn't here. Even after saying that he understands what I was referring to, even after me clarifying what I'm referring to, he's still more interested in trying to needle about that statement and absolutely nothing else.

I don't think a town him reads a post to him where I say he's letting me down and ignores that to again try to get me to say that I was calling him scum because he wasn't here. I think a town him knows exactly what I'm referring to and meaning and responds to it considering the one thing that we've been pointing out in our spate of recent games of being on the opposing side is the feeling of abandonment and how shitty it feels.

I'm town. He knows I'm town and rather than work with me, whom he supposedly enjoys playing with and respects how I read the game and people, is straight up pretending I'm not here except to focus on that one statement. That one statement that he can interact with me naturally on because him putting off a game is not alignment indicative. If he's town here, I'm just really disappointed.

[Tammy]

I think my patience is running out with leon.

[Tammy]

I'm not completely convinced that Wisdom is town though I'm certainly leaning that way. I forgot about the hated thing; that was one thing I did like yesterday as we have to lynch him before lylo anyway so.

[Tammy]

Wasn't trying to piggyback, it was a comment I wanted to make.

No. You quoted her post, you said "DING DING DING" like you agreed and understood what she was saying and then started talking about something completely different.

yes the ding ding ding was a comment on the quote and the other stuff was a separate comment
That's why I spaced them out

What were you dingdingdinging about?