Newbie 1768: Party Mafia - Game over!

[Revan]

Revan, I am not seeing what you outlined in 210 as a scumtell for Jae. I really don't like that you didn't even notice that neither GL or EL responded to Jae's questions.

I thought they did, but that must've been a gap in my thinking.

[bowdown]

Revan, I am not seeing what you outlined in 210 as a scumtell for Jae. I really don't like that you didn't even notice that neither GL or EL responded to Jae's questions.

I thought they did, but that must've been a gap in my thinking.

What thinking is there to have a gap in? You scumread Jae for not following up on questions, and while you're looking for follow-ups you just don't notice that nobody actually responded to the questions?

[bowdown]

A lot of what JaeReed is posting seems very simple and easily producible, sub-par with what I would expect out of an IC.

One more for you Revan, would you describe your own posts as simple and easily producible?

[Revan]

I jumped from asked question -> didn't follow up. My brain assumed that they answered the questions.

[Revan]

I would say that they are short, but sweet and concise. They are

physically

easily producible, but Jae's are different.

A lot of their thinking is pretty simple, a lot of "Why do you scumread/townread x?" If you're scum, you can say this and get town points just for someone else's laziness.

[bowdown]

I would say that they are short, but sweet and concise. They are

physically

easily producible, but Jae's are different.

A lot of their thinking is pretty simple, a lot of "Why do you scumread/townread x?" If you're scum, you can say this and get town points just for someone else's laziness.

I think some of Jae's stuff is simole thinking. I think that some of them demonstrate deeper thinking. I don't think that necessarily indicates towniness but I do think it's more likely to be coming from town.

However, I don't think that there's one post of yours that has depth to its reasoning - you have a bunch of surface level analyses. There's no oomph there.

VOTE: Revan. I like this better than Lemon.

[bowdown]

Titus, any particular reason you wanted me to join you on Lemon?

[Revan]

I wasn't talking about Jae's analysis, I was talking about their questions.

My analysis can be simple because a lot of the people in this game are easy to read, except Titus and GuiltyLion.

[SirCakez]

Votecount 1.5

EccentricLemon (2) - Titus, nancy
tojam2 (1) - EccentricLemon
JaeReed (1) - Revan
nancy (1) - tojam2
bowdown (1) - GuiltyLion
Revan (1) - bowdown

Not voting (2) - Agent Sparkles, JaeReed

With 9 alive, it takes 5 votes to lynch someone.

(expired on 2017-01-16 11:14:00) remain until day end

[SirCakez]

Prodding Agent Sparkles

[Agent Sparkles]

I'm here, just haven't found the time to make a post. I'm gonna start rereading now

[JaeReed]

The issue with my read is that it's so subjective. Depending on how I choose to interpret it, I'm sure I could take nearly any of her posts to be either newbscum or newbtown. Reading her as Town feels like giving her the benefit of the doubt and at times second-guessing myself. Reading her as scum feels like I'm being overly critical. Either way I read her, I often feel like I'm justifying my read by assuming that it's true, which sucks super much.

In this situation it's perfectly fine to have them at a null/can't figure out yet type read. If you can ascribe both kinds of motivations to their posts then their alignment is less readily seen. If you can't see them making a post as x alignment no matter how hard you try to assume they're of that alignment then the chances are they're not of that alignment. It's perfectly find to read someone that way.

Spoiler:

I see you have missed me, but I guess that fact that no one else voted for me is a good sign.

I still stand by my vote since I have not received any new information about GuiltyLion and no other posts have convinced me about the scumminess of any other player.

Newbscum, because it doesn't seem towny to be ready/able to be convinced of someone's guilt without even being out of RV. The first line could also be hinting at this - the fear that people could somehow inherently know that she was scum and bw her to death. Newbtown, because she is expressing concern about scumhunting (even if she isn't actively doing anything about it yet) and isn't losing her cool about getting votes.

I believe expressing concern over scumhunting means little if you aren't trying to follow it up with something such as an actual push for content, which didn't happen here.

Most of the people in this game are newbies, and I think some of you are reading too far into everything. Then again, I tend to be the kind that likes to wait a while before making any decisions and am a newbie myself.

I don't think nancy is consciously attempting to prove her innocence and at this point, I lean toward the fact that she's just more outspoken and trying to incite conversation. Personally, I don't think what she's said is enough to incriminate her.
However, at this stage of the game, everyone is suspicious and outspoken people tend to draw more suspicion. Which is to say while I don't believe nancy is attempting to divert attention, I'm not completely certain of her innocence as well.

I voted for GuiltyLion hoping to receive some information from him or other players discussing him but I'm a little disappointed that there isn't a lot of debate going on about him. Also as soon as people started voting for him, he hasn't posted much. Which seems a little shifty to me, like he's lying low and letting it blow over. I mean, I don't know his personal life or playing style so I might be wrong.

The fact that Jae and AgentSparkles haven't voted against nancy and are trying to get information instead of straight up voting for her kind of tips me toward assuming they are probably town. However, Jae is a seasoned player and that makes me trust them less.

Again, this is only my speculation from what I've seen.

Newbscum, because she looks like she's trying to subtly dissuade people from reading her as scum (see how I'm assuming scum here in order to make the read?), because of the wording "prove her innocence" (is that a slip or an example of reading scum because assuming scum?), because of her readiness to make townreads on little evidence, and because her automatic stance is distrust (towards Jae). Newbtown, because she looks like she's trying to direct people's arguments away from over-analysis and towards more useful things and is at least making an attempt at scumhunting.

I don't believe the dismissal over over-analysis is scummy in this context or trying to dissuade people from reading them. I assume this is what you mean by "subtly dissuade people from reading her as scum"? The wording about proving your innocence is just the way it's phrased, rather than a slip of knowledge. Very rarely will you come across an actual scum slip. Soft townreads off little are fine to have so long as you're ready to reconsider as new evidence and viewpoints come up. The automatic stance being distrust towards me is fine in this context, as EL isn't throwing any shade or cautioning players against listening to me because of it, but more stating their own wariness to townread me too easily.
The dismissal of reading too far into everything is more playstyle indicative than Alignment Indicative I find. Usually I actually find that kind of comment coming from experienced scumhunters, though, so I'm a little surprised to see it from a newb.
I agree that the scumhunting attempt here looks like awkward town, actually.

If a person gets voted up, it's more likely people are going to discuss them. My vote wasn't a hammer or anything. That was my logic on what would happen. But since that didn't happen and doesn't seem like it's going to happen, UNVOTE: GuiltyLion. I was just stating my purpose and my suspicions so that people can use them to draw conclusions, I'm not actually accusing anyone.

Newbscum, because wishy-washy, defensive, seemingly inconsistent (see 73), and trying to stay on people's good sides and not attract attention. Newbtown, because according to her stated logic her behavior does make sense, and her behavior is at least consistent in terms of being afraid of doing anything wrong.

I don't see this as wishy-washy, and generally don't find that behaviour to be necessarily scum indicative moreso than personality indicative, which the behaviour being consistent points to.

Sorry, that's my mistake that I didn't reply to that comment.
I meant that no one was scummy so far. I was interested in where that vote might take the discussion. It didn't reveal that much new info to me, so keeping my vote there wouldn't do much and might have even hurt me down the road.

I meant to add in #68 that I've been pressed for time, so I may not have read each post as carefully as I hoped to.

I said I'm not trying to accuse anyone. I unvoted because there wasn't any reason to keep my vote there. I personally don't see any point to random voting unless it generates discussion, which I understand is why it's encouraged. I can vote and unvote at any time, so unvoting wasn't an issue if I was trying to prove I'm not trying to be accusatory.

Newbscum, because inconsistent in her reads, bad scumhunting, and trying to deflect attention. Newbtown, because her scumminess is explainable by a fear to do anything wrong and general clumsiness, which is consistent. (And yet again, giving her the benefit of the doubt.)

Why do you see this as being inconsistent in their reads? Do you believe bad scumhunting is scummy? How do you believe this is trying to deflect attention? If it's trying to deflect then who is it deflecting on to?

Sorry, that's my mistake that I didn't reply to that comment.
I meant that no one was scummy so far. I was interested in where that vote might take the discussion. It didn't reveal that much new info to me, so keeping my vote there wouldn't do much and

might have even hurt me down the road

.

What do you mean by this? Why did you say it?

I can vote and unvote at any time, so unvoting wasn't an issue if I was trying to prove I'm not trying to be accusatory.

Why not be accusatory?

Well keeping my vote for GuiltyLion if I was trying not to be belligerent would have been a bad move because it would seem like I'm trying to throw him under the bus. Which is not what I'm going for. I'm not sure if I'm articulating what I'm trying to say correctly. I'll try to elaborate if my explanations don't make any sense.
We all know that at this point, everyone's basically out for themselves so there's no harm I think in pointing out that I did it in self-preservation.

I don't want to be accusatory because a mistake will likely make me seem scummier. If my aggressive actions get him hanged and he turns out to be town, people are going to come after me because I'm already suspicious. I mean, it seems like everything I say is making me more and more suspicious anyway.
Also I'm a newbie and I'm still learning how the game works and I don't want to try anything too (emphasis on the too) risky until I've had some experience. I'm seeing that posting what I said that early was a bad idea (?).

@GL, I've never been a fan of p.1, baseless gut, having opinions prior to the game is noobscummy to me.

I never said anything that would allude to me having opinions prior to the game. At least I don't believe so. Attack me all you want for that, but I think I made it pretty clear that all of my observations are pretty nebulous but have at least some sort of basis in what people have said.

Newbscum, because the comment on bussing GL has no context that I can see, because it potentially displays a knowledge of GL's alignment (worried about being on a bw against a townie or worried about bussing a partner?), has an exaggerated sense of how suspicious she is. Newbtown because again, her behavior is consistent with being afraid of doing something wrong, of being in the spotlight when she's not sure what to do, because her scumminess is still explainable as her just being very clumsy.

The comment on bussing GL was talking about how EL believed the vote could have eventually led to a lynch on GL (I think this is regardless of GL's alignment). Potentially displaying knowledge of GL's alignment is a valid tell, and both of the theories there are possible, I think. Exaggerated sense of how suspicious she is can also be a potential tell.
The behaviour being consistent means a lot here, I think. It could just be consistent with thinking she's scummy but I think there is a decent chance that it's just awkwardness and clumsy town like you said.

Or that AgentSparkles and EccentricLemon still have no avatars.

I haven't been able to find a good image, before anyone starts interrogating me. I tend to be very picky with stuff like avatars. If I were trying to blend in, I just wouldn't post and hope people forgot about me.

I think nancy is doing the same thing I am in trying to be cautious--it IS the first day--but still stirring up conversation. She hasn't changed her vote for a bit, so I take that she isn't actively accusing anyone but more passively pointing out things she finds suspicious.
However, she has some experience with forum mafia, even if it is only a bit, and I wouldn't precisely consider her a newbie. She seems like she knows what she's doing.

My experience with forum mafia - I've modded 1 mafia and participated in 1 mafia on another non-mafia forum (this activity is ongoing). I've also read Vi's Jailbreak Mini and a small percentage of the material on mafiascum wiki, but neither of those would really count as "experience". Non-forum mafia - I played the party game as a child, and I joined up on EM 2-3 months ago. (I recognize kentofan from there, heh.)

In all, someone did say that the more aggressive Town is, the more successful they're going to be (sorry, can't find it in the thread) and I think that's what she's going for.

I'd also like to point out that tojam did accuse me pretty harshly about baseless gut accusing and having opinions prior to the game, both of which I don't think I am guilty of. Could be a sign of skimming or just me being an idiot again.

Newbscum, because wishy-washy, because she reacted fearfully to my baseless avatar comment, again suggesting that she may be oversensitive to her own suspiciousness, because she appears concerned about how she should be blending in and has potentially lied in saying that she would blend in by lurking, and because she is again primarily trying to deflect attention away from herself (comments about me and it being D1). Newbtown, because her behavior is consistent in terms of being motivated by fear, and is still explainable as just clumsiness/newbishness.

I already mentioned about the wishy washy thing so I won't bring it up again. By this stage I think you're just correct in the assessment of her being newbtown. I don't believe she was trying to deflect attention off herself onto you because that's usually done with a push and it seems like she's subtly townreading you here for being the same as she is, but also somewhat wary as you have more experience? The comment about tojam could be a deflective push but I think it's just her genuinely misunderstanding who tojam's post was geared towards.

I was talking about nancy and GuiltyLion

I'm so sorry, I misread that GL as an EL. My bad. Sorry I called you out on it.

EccentricLemon has been awfully quiet

I just got home from school plus a 5 hour meet. Just to clarify.

My take on Titus' vote is that if she is scum, she is trying to jump on the bandwagon to further people's distrust of me, since I'm already suspicious. If Titus is town, she might perceive me as a real threat.
However, I am concerned about the lack of explanation past:

VOTE: EccentricLemon
My bad. I am showing off the naked voting strategy, so not yet.

and

VOTE: EccentricLion
Gut

We're already into some good discussions and there's quite a lot to base a reason off of. I've said quite a bit and so have other people. Just saying "Gut" seems a bit weird if you ask me.

Newbscum, because oversensitivity to her own suspiciousness and minimal effort at scumhunting. Newbtown, because surely she wouldn't be saying things like "perceive me as a real threat" if she actually were scum.

I actually don't believe this shows oversensitivity to her being suspicious, and this is a good effort at scumhunting. The way she was viewing Titus naked voting here with a reason as vague as "Gut" is a good reaction, and the fact that Titus did it after EL made a bunch of awkward posts that people had noticed was noted as well, despite not instantly jumping to "Titus is probably scum because that vote was bad". It shows she's paying attention to the way people are reading the game and acknowledging that there's more than one reason someone would want to do that kind of thing, and plays in to how cautious she's been up to this point. The reason you stated for newbtown is more wifom than anything, but I do think this post was actually a decent indicator for town!EL.

Good morning everyone! First game of mafia ever, though I used to play werewolf on a different forum like 5 years ago. Getting caught up now but let's start with a

vote toejam

because gross.

Mafia and werewolf are the same game, different flavor.

Hey, GuiltyLion, you there?

Hey GL,

Do you think Eccentric Lemon is town?

What do you think of me?

Why you ignore my hello?

What did you think of my freudian slip?

I don't know how this is for everyone else, but to me, the lack of substance in Titus' posts weirds me out. To me, it feels like what someone would post if they are only going through the motions of playing the game. I don't know if this is how she plays all the time, since she seems like a pretty experienced player. I think Jae or someone did mention that they played against them before and killed her only to find out she was town, which leads me to believe this is just how she plays. (is this metagaming?)
What's especially weird, though, is that the first question in post 127 is asking GL what his opinion is on something that he had just answered two posts before and the third question just seems irrelevant.

Same thing with tojam:

I know its not for me but I'd like to not solely focus on Nancy and bowdown.

1. I've not noticed anything as standout town or scum, nulltown.

2. Can't say I've cared much about your posts.

Says he wants to focus on someone other than nancy and bowdown while also saying that he has no opinion on the two other players he says he is discussing. This entire post doesn't provide any new information and gives off the same vibe as Titus' posts--that he's just going through the motions.

Taking into account that last post and bowdown's commentary,my vote is for tojam.
VOTE: tojam2

Newbscum, because she is jumping to conclusions, maybe just in order to seem to be scumhunting. Newbtown, because I believe her reaction to Titus is genuine, and she's at least trying to contribute to the scumhunt.

Do you believe scum are more likely to jump to conclusions than town? Her analysis of Titus here was pretty good, and I believe it was genuine scumhunting by this point.

You just contradicted yourself by saying that nancy is playing passively, and then saying that she's playing aggressively. Which one is it?

It's poor wording.
I meant in that situation she wasn't aggressively trying to get someone lynched. She wasn't lobbying for someone to get hanged, she was pointing out a detail that bothered her. If you notice, she's one of the most active users in terms of posting and calling people out. I think you can call that aggressive in terms of overall strategy. She's playing aggressively but she wasn't actively accusing anyone (hence that she hadn't changed her vote) at the time.

That being said, it seems unnatural that even a careful townie would be this paranoid. Also, you claimed it would make you look bad if Guilty was lynched because of your actions, but why would you even need to worry about that? He wasn't going to be killed because of an RVS vote.

I'd like to know why anyone having a "knowledgeable tone" is a problem in the first place. Does looking ignorant make people towny?

Baseless paranoia. Personal reasons. Not something I'm willing to discuss further. It'll go away as the game progresses. I don't even know why I included that.
Having a knowledgeable tone could point to scum because the scum is supposed to be the informed minority (because they know who is town and who isn't, and they are able to communicate outside of the group) and the town the uninformed majority (because they aren't certain who the other town are and who is the scum). Implying the you have more knowledge than what can be reasonably deduced from what has been previously said, especially on the first day, is therefore usually a scumtell.

That being said, I agree with the point that it's hard to tell when Jae is in teacher mode and when they are in player mode.
Jae, since you have a lot of experience with this game, it can seem at times that you're blurring these lines on purpose, so it wold be nice if you were clearer when you're switching between the two. I would hate if that were the case.

Newbscum, because the lean of her comments about Mafia communication, because she is suddenly behaving differently, and because her final sentence seems disjointed. Newbtown, because her change in behavior away from being motivated by fear and aversion to attention is explainable by the game having progressed, and her feeling more comfortable as it has. (I've certainly become more comfortable since page 1.)

I think behaving differently is just due to getting in the swing of things, as you mentioned. This post is kind of off if GL flips scum but other than that it's fine. Her last sentence I think is just sheeping bowdown's sentiments, which I'm not a huge fan of but that reminds me I should respond to it.

It seems to me that Jae is frustrated with how their status as IC makes people want to follow their decisions instead of making their own. It's difficult for Jae to tell who is sheeping them because they're a newb and who's sheeping them because they're scum trying to blend in.
A scum wouldn't get frustrated with lack of information because a scum would already have all the information regarding who is scum and who is town.

This wouldn't bother me if more people were sheeping the IC, however. I think tojam and Titus are sheeping, but not bowdown, nancy, Agent Sparkles, or GuiltyLion--who make up the majority of active players. All of them have responded in some way to what Jae has offered, often critically. I know Jae doesn't think I'm sheeping or at LEAST is pretty confident I'm town. (In #88, Jae responds to my comment with advice rather than critique, leading me to believe they think I'm a noob town). Therefore, I don't think there's any need to the frustration Jae is expressing because there's plenty of information available.

Newbscum, because of the potential hints of knowledge about Jae's alignment, and because of the consistent attention to what information scum have and how they'd use it.

Do you believe EL is implying I am town in this post? I don't believe they're showing hints of my alignment here. They seem to be analyzing my reasons for holding back a bit and coming to a conclusion based on the evidence in the thread. If anything, I believe EL is hinting they don't believe I'm genuine in wanting to hold back so I don't end up being blindly sheeped, as evidenced by the second paragraph. I also believe that them assuming I could correctly read them that early in the game is probably more of a newbtown sign.

I get the feeling that Titus is hiding behind Jae. I need to go look through posts for some more solid evidence. I'll get back to you on that.

Titus and tojam's interactions are very limited. It's hard to tell what they think of each other but the lack of communication between them I think reveals quite a lot.
I think this interaction in particular is really scummy, especially on tojam's part:

Hey GL,

Do you think Eccentric Lemon is town?

What do you think of me?

Why you ignore my hello?

What did you think of my freudian slip?

I know its not for me but I'd like to not solely focus on Nancy and bowdown.

1. I've not noticed anything as standout town or scum, nulltown.

2. Can't say I've cared much about your posts.

It feels very forced. There's no reason to answer to Titus' post in this situation, since the original comment is clearly geared toward GuiltyLion. It seems to me like tojam is trying to cover up the lack of interaction between him and Titus.
The other thing wrong with tojam's reaction is "Can't say I've cared much about your posts." Once again, seems like forced interaction because that statement contributes absolutely nothing.

I think #56 also feels forced, especially since it was never brought up again by either of them.
These are the only two interactions between the two of them that I could find, which is also quite disconcerting. Not having anything to say about someone is fine, but saying stuff for the sake of saying it rather than furthering discussion is not.

I can say I'm still a bit on the fence about Titus. She provides much less information in her posts than tojam, so I can't tell if she's just less involved with the game or if she's trying to cover up the fact that she already knows what we're trying to figure out. #132 really sealed the deal for me on tojam, however.

Now that I think about it more, it is a bit strange that both mafias would act the same way. Especially since both of them aren't noobs. I'm pretty sure at least one of them is scum, though. Just judging by the aloofness I'm perceiving from them. And I think it's more likely that tojam would be scum if that were the case.

Noobscum, because she's quick to conclude that someone is scum on little basis, and because her behavior isn't consistent. Noobtown, because she's attempting to scumhunt.

VOTE: EccentricLemon

How do you feel their behaviour here isn't consistent? Because they should realistically be voting Titus over tojam in that case? What did you think of their reasoning for voting tojam over Titus?

[JaeReed]

^ That response was slowing me down =P But I did want to respond to it.

Also, when making big quote walls please spoiler it because it makes it a lot easier for those who need to reread.

Code: Select all

[spoiler]This will come out like....[/spoiler]

This will come out like....

This spoiler is usually for shorter stuff and a lot of people don't like it being used as some only play on their phones and it's harder to highlight to see what was written.

Code: Select all

[spoiler=]This will come out like....[/spoiler]
or
[spoiler=A title!]This will come out like....[/spoiler]

Spoiler:

This will come out like....

or

Spoiler: A title!

This will come out like....

This is really handy for quote walls because when you're rereading the game you might not necessarily want to have to scroll through a massive post when you're skimming to remember stuff that happened. Especially so on a phone.

[JaeReed]

Partially, but I am also naked voting to see if I can trigger more of the funny speech patterns from Lemon.

If you want more funny speech patterns then why aren't you trying to actively engage with them?

[JaeReed]

What do you think of the questions Jae has asked so far (e.g. 88, 102)? Do you feel like they're from a protown perspective?

oops I forgot to respond to 88 actually.

response to 88: wasn't bothered by it
thoughts on 88: I could see it either way, if town!Jae is scumreading nancy then it makes sense to poke at me about it like that, but if scum!Jae were fishing for mislynch votes then it could serve that purpose as well. It's something to revisit on a nancy flip, and also slightly more informative now that Jae also has nancy as their top townread.

I think GL followed to the wrong question there. I think this was his answer to me for 87. I'd like him to look at 88 again and answer again in that case.

as for 102, I've asked questions like that before when I thought newbies were scumreading people for bad reasons and I wanted to get a better grip on their reasoning. I'd say it's a pro-town question.

Wanted to help along scumhunting off that naked vote a bit and hint to newbies they should go back and check to see if they can see what Titus was voting for so they could draw their own conclusions as to whether Titus was genuinely scumhunting or not.

and I have some thoughts on his tojam case but I would like to let tojam respond to it first before jumping in

Would love to hear them now that tojam has responded.

so the thing is your entire case is built off of tojam being hypocritical in scumreading nancy for vote parking on a null, while doing the same thing himself.
Why do you think hypocrisy is indicative of scum alignment, especially in this particular case? Your 124 reads to me like "here are facts about things that happened, so tojam is a good vote", but I feel I'm missing the causality reasoning as to why voting nancy for doing something that he is guilty of himself makes tojam scum.

FTR Lion, this is more what I've been waiting for from you. Enjoy your towncred, and don't spend it all in one place!

[JaeReed]

I'm at L-2, I'm not going to let you waste more of your time.
I'm the 1 shot BP.

As an aside, I've felt this frustration before as a PR getting run up. I do understand the feeling that leads into an early claim like this, so I'm not trying to say it's easy to fight it without claiming, because it's not. It's annoying and frustrating beyond all belief, but it's worth it, and you might gain more information on those pushing your wagon if you do.

[JaeReed]

I say we lynch Titus.

Jae why are you scumreading tojam? Putting him at the bottom of your list doesn't mean that it's justified at all.

Titus is being pretty uncooperative, and hard to read.

Why don't you defend yourself?

Bow down why are are you so inclined to vote Lemon, if Titus didn't even present a case that could?

That doesn't make any sense. If you wanted to see what would happen, you would've voted Lemon before Titus asked you to.

Titus what makes Lemons's speech patterns funny? Are these patterns indicative of scum?

VOTE: JaeReed

Let me explain.

In their 143, they claim that they asked their questions in 87 and 88 to scumhunt. However, they don't follow up. I feel as though if they were trying to scumhunt, they would share with the town what they garnered from those responses. This leads me to believe that they're scum just going through the motions, and not genuinely trying to solve the game.

I'm also convinced that their 24 is a slip.

Revan, can you explain this lack of progression?

[Revan]

Can you reiterate? I'm not sure I understand the question.

[JaeReed]

Within the span of 22 posts you went from a decentish case on Titus to questioning bowdown on listening to Titus (your stated scumread), to voting me without getting my answer on why I was scumreading tojam, for reasons that aren't even related to my tojam vote. It looks like you just wanted a reason to vote me. Especially given the justification of "slip".

What I see here is:
To me: Explain your vote. (decent demand of "back it up")
To bowdown: Explain why you followed Titus. (implies you think he could be partnered with Titus or scum sheeping Titus since she told him to do it)
To Titus: Explain why EL's speech patterns are worth a vote.
*votes Jae*

There's a disconnect there.

[JaeReed]

So what's next here? Does PR cc now? Wait until tomorrow? Something else?

I'll actually answer this with some quotes from the first game I ever read on the site. Partially because I'm lazy. Note that since this was during a game the situation is slightly different to our own. How someone claims matters somewhat, too. Every game is different.

Spoiler: PR ramblings from Nachomamma8

As far as prioritizing scumreads go, you should always always always prioritize your strongest scumread over any others. The only time when you should be prioritizing someone based on threat level is if you have personal experience with someone (meaning that they could shoot you and drift through the rest of the game much easier); in most other cases, threat level is high on a player because you can't read them very well, which should make you less willing to lynch someone, not more.

(PR rambling starts here.)

Basic PR theory tends to change based on the situation you're in. In this setup specifically, if you're a cop and there are two scum alive, you're looking to target someone who is likely living to endgame. The idea behind that is forcing scum to kill people that they didn't plan on killing OR giving a town a useful confirmed innocent somewhere down the road. If you take this route and scum doesn't kill you or your innocent, it's probably a good idea to claim Day 2; it will confirm you as town and it will confirm your innocent as town meaning if you have two solid town reads then you outright win the game (a townblock of 4 players allows you to lynch the remaining 3 in 7p).

If you're a cop/tracker and there's one scum alive, investigate who the town is planning on lynching. Either you end the game outright, or you give people as much time to reevaluate as possible. If the scum that was lynched was a roleblocker, then you out your role and your result immediately, take the game to no lynch and continue doing so until the doctor is dead; this results in a win in a majority of scenarios.

If you're a tracker/jailkeeper and there's two scum alive, follow your heart. In a two man scum team, there is generally scum in a weak position and scum in a strong position. Scum in the strong position are less likely to be tracked but are a greater loss to the scumteam when they are tracked. Scum in the weak position are more likely to be tracked but are a smaller loss to the scumteam when they are tracked. If you don't see anyone go anywhere, it is not an innocent; their scumpartner could have been the player who submitted the kill.

That being said, don't ignore your results; if you track a really, really scummy player and they didn't go anywhere, then they might be town; usually when scum are dealing with terrible partners they make them submit the kill.

If you are a Jailkeeper, you also have the option to protect your strongest townread: it's usually easier to block a kill this way although the results are not as juicy as if you block a scummy player. However, just because there's no kill after you protected your strongest townread it doesn't mean innocent; your strongest townread could have been scum submitting the kill. Just because there's no kill after you blocked your strongest scumread doesn't mean guilty; sometimes scum makes strange kill choices.

If you are a Jailkeeper and there is one scum left, claim immediately; if there is a one-shot bulletproof in the setup, they should claim as well. If a one-shot bulletproof claims, block them overnight; if they are scum they will be unable to kill, which means that if you are shot that night they are confirmed town the next day and if you aren't they will be unable to win (sometimes scum will no kill in this situation, which means use your best judgment). If no one claims bulletproof, block whoever you want to overnight but claim your target before you do so; that way, if scum kill you, that person will become confirmed town.

Spoiler: Counterclaiming from Nachomamma8

And remember the handy dandy when to counterclaim!

If someone claims cop, everyone should wait for a one-shot bulletproof (if it exists) to counterclaim. If no one-shot bulletproof counterclaims, then cop/tracker/jailkeeper should counterclaim.

If someone claims tracker, cop/jailkeeper/tracker should counterclaim.

If someone claims jailkeeper, doctor gets the opportunity to counterclaim first, then cop/jailkeeper/tracker should counterclaim.

If someone claims doctor, wait for a doctor or one-shot bulletproof to claim first, then counterclaim if you are a jailkeeper.

If someone claims one-shot bulletproof, wait for a doctor or one-shot bulletproof to claim first, then counterclaim if you are a cop.

People claiming doctor/bulletproof and not getting counterclaimed doesn't make them town, so sometimes it's better to lynch them even though they are claiming PR.

In this specific situation, if Fragger claimed doctor/bulletproof, I'd probably be for lynching him anyways.
If Fragger claims tracker/cop/jailkeeper I wouldn't believe him for a moment, but I'd happily lynch Occ in his place; we wouldn't have enough time for a counterclaim anyways and it would allow the tracker/cop/jailkeeper to possibly snag an extra innocent/block a kill and he wouldn't be able to win if Occ was his scumpartners anyways (although tracker counterclaiming here would be fine).

[JaeReed]

I say we lynch Titus.

Jae why are you scumreading tojam? Putting him at the bottom of your list doesn't mean that it's justified at all.

@Jae I assume you're referring to me with "forced jokes". I was attempting to start the thread off in a light-hearted manner, unaware that the atmosphere on scum was so severe. I don't agree with your nulltown reading of toejam. Your read only applies if everyone on mafia has the same personality or playstyle.

@toejam I don't see that as a TR. Saying you've read him a Town for starting discussion seems to me like the start of buddying up, which I would read as scum (I was already gutreading you as scum), and which also makes me think that he is Town. Unless you counted on someone making that analysis, in which case he could just as well be your partner, which takes him back to a null read.

This feels overdefensive and I dislike the attempt to break down townreads here.

That said, I like the thought about buddying because that did cross my mind too.

Mostly I'd had the thought about potential buddying in mind and didn't exactly love his postings for the reasons people were already pushing on. I will need to reread now since I think that claim was genuine given the frustrations of being run up when you're a PR and thinking town is wasting their time, but I want to respond to everything up to this point that I'd been kinda skipping on first.

[JaeReed]

Page 4 is read!

A lot of what JaeReed is posting seems very simple and easily producible, sub-par with what I would expect out of an IC.

Titus is obviously scum. Insincere questioning, and posts seem to be coming from someone that has the motivation to distract town.

VOTE: Titus

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 6#p8581336
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 5#p8619185

What about her questions so far seems insincere to you? Which posts do you believe are aiming to distract the town rather than provide a different playstyle for people to get accustomed to before reaching games outside the newbie queue?

Also I want this answered.

[JaeReed]

I had convinced myself pretty well that tojam was scum and was looking for his partner (

which I still think if there's a counter and tojam flips scum, there's a decent chance it's Jae

).

Why? Given what you yourself even mentioned as a reason to scumread me later:

Eh, pretty sure there are questions that I've asked and have forgotten about too. It might be a thing, I just don't think so.

What does bug me about Jae is actually his tojam vote that came out of the blue - in a scum-Jae/town-tojam world it's an opportunistic, PR-hunting vote.

My reads, roughly. Each group is relatively close.

Town

*tojam - only b/c of claim
nancy
GuiltyLion
AgentSparkles

Titus

JaeReed
Revan
EccentricLemon

Scum

Do you think they slipped?

Nope, I read it as an honest self-assessment of their scum game.

Revan, I am not seeing what you outlined in 210 as a scumtell for Jae. I really don't like that you didn't even notice that neither GL or EL responded to Jae's questions.

A lot of what JaeReed is posting seems very simple and easily producible, sub-par with what I would expect out of an IC.

One more for you Revan, would you describe your own posts as simple and easily producible?

I would say that they are short, but sweet and concise. They are

physically

easily producible, but Jae's are different.

A lot of their thinking is pretty simple, a lot of "Why do you scumread/townread x?" If you're scum, you can say this and get town points just for someone else's laziness.

I think some of Jae's stuff is simole thinking. I think that some of them demonstrate deeper thinking. I don't think that necessarily indicates towniness but I do think it's more likely to be coming from town.

However, I don't think that there's one post of yours that has depth to its reasoning - you have a bunch of surface level analyses. There's no oomph there.

VOTE: Revan. I like this better than Lemon.

Why are you defending me given that I'm a scumread of yours? Wouldn't it have been better for you to sort me through watching two of your scumreads duke it out? If you think my posting demonstrates deeper thinking more likely to come from town, then why am I scumread?

[JaeReed]

^ lol after my post about spoilering shit I go and do that. My b.

[nancy]

Ohh I didn't know we were allowed to talk about other games. So your comment about skimming and newbs was interesting, because that's something I actually picked up from a game I read full of experienced players - it seemed given to them that skimming was scummy.

Thank you for the awesome quotes and several helpful posts in the last page or two.