Newbie 1770: Water Game Over

[Toto]

VOTE: MooginSoosy

Hi!

[Toto]

I like the RSPS idea. BUT. This is a newbie. We should not encourage such behaviors. Yet.

[Toto]

Still waiting for a couple of people to post or get replaced.

[Toto]

Fykus what's your take on FormerFish's aggressiveness and questioning?

[Toto]

VOTE: Fykus

[Toto]

What would you like to hear from me?

[Toto]

Fykus is probably scum.

[Toto]

Yes

[Toto]

Hi

[Toto]

Fykus, why did you assume that there is always a SE helping a newbie in these games as scum?

[Toto]

Last time I saw that happening, that newbie was scum with a SE.

[Toto]

A newbie assuming there is always a newbie+SE as scum team.

[Toto]

He is actually trying to gamesolve. Town needs to do that in oder to figure out who is scum and who isn't. Scum on the other hand don't need to figure out too much so they don't need to gamesolve. You can tell sometimes by the way they don't try to solve the game.

[Toto]

Of course a good scum will try to fake that.

[Toto]

Asking questions. Making theories and chasing them. Of course, good scumhunting is about figuring out whether these behaviors are fake or not.

The opposite is to sit around and wait for other people to make cases and theories. Like you are.

[Toto]

Ok. So If I make a good theory about scum!formerfish will you vote him with me?

[Toto]

Ok. Here it is.

1) FormerFish attacks Jin for not voting RVS.
2) At the same time he questions me about why did my RVS vote didn't go to any of the two pre-existing wagons. That'd be You and Jin. Doesn't it seem like an odd question to ask, specially since he is already attacking Jin for not RVS voting?
3) I never answer the question and he never follows up on this. This makes me think he didn't care much about the answer.

So I'm thinking that FF is scum and his partner is either You or Jin.

[Toto]

I kinda want to hang one of the replacements simply for the fact that more often than not replace outs in newbie games are scum.

Ding ding dong, brilliant idea.

Nope. I studied the raw data used for those statistics and they are BS. So unless you guys have a case we are not.

[Toto]

They need to try and deduse the good from the bad,

This is what game solving is.

[Toto]

I kinda want to hang one of the replacements simply for the fact that more often than not replace outs in newbie games are scum.

Ding ding dong, brilliant idea.

Nope. I studied the raw data used for those statistics and they are BS. So unless you guys have a case we are not.

I don Actually understand at who this is directed, nor what it actually means lol.

It's directed at you and Formerfish. It means we are not lynching anyone that replaced in unless we have a good case other than they replaced in.

[Toto]

Ok. Here it is.

1) FormerFish attacks Jin for not voting RVS.
2) At the same time he questions me about why did my RVS vote didn't go to any of the two pre-existing wagons. That'd be You and Jin. Doesn't it seem like an odd question to ask, specially since he is already attacking Jin for not RVS voting?
3) I never answer the question and he never follows up on this. This makes me think he didn't care much about the answer.

So I'm thinking that FF is scum and his partner is either You or Jin.

Pep, what do you make of this case?

[Toto]

Ok. So If I make a good theory about scum!formerfish will you vote him with me?

You aren't voting me now...

I'll get to you later Toto. I dislike the avenue of attack you've chosen as it's flawed and shitty. Do you normally make flawed and shitty arguments against people? What is your record of flawed and shitty scumreads turning into scum flips?

Im waiting to see who your partner is. Dont you worry. Ill get you lynched today.

[Toto]

Pep. Thoughts on formerfish.

[Toto]

Also, Im still waiting for fykus to decide if he is joining the formerfish lynch today.

[Toto]

LMAO so that was a real question?

Do you normally make flawed and shitty arguments against people? What is your record of flawed and shitty scumreads turning into scum flips?

[Toto]

try harder.

[Toto]

You guys don't find it odd that Fish doesn't scum read me? Why is he not wondering if I'm scum trying to get rid of him? I'm pretty much defending his BS attack on Jin which apparently is his top scum read and why is he not wondering if I'm Jin's partner.

[Toto]

While Fish attacks Jin for not voting in RVS he doesn't say anything about Fykus, who is also not voting RVS. At the same time he questions me for RVS voting Moogin instead of any of pre-existing wagons. Why ask that question if he feels RVS voting is what people should be doing? He is not being consistent in his line of questioning and thoughts.

Now he asks me how accurate my day 1 reads are. Why would you ask that question as TOWN? IT MAKES NO SENSE. Seriously, if we don't lynch this guy after asking this question I don't know what else to tell you.

[Toto]

VOTE: Fish

[Toto]

Toto what's up with that complacent tone? Why are you acting like this?

Toto, I'll put this here too since I don't remember seeing a reply to it. Guess that means that Tier is my partner, right? Cause they aren't pressuring you to answer that question.

I don't know what a complacent tone is

[Toto]

LMAO so that was a real question?

Do you normally make flawed and shitty arguments against people? What is your record of flawed and shitty scumreads turning into scum flips?

I"ve always loved the "I don't like the way you phrased the question, so I'm not going to answer it" technique. I especially love when I rephrase without all of the intended bite and still being told that I'm not going to get an answer.

When this is someone who is willing to lay a scum read on me based off the fact that there was a question I haven't been militant about getting an answer for, i find it funny that they are so resistant to actually answering any of them.

I have played 4 games as town. Of all of them my top two scum reads one of them was scum on day 1. In this one my top two are you and fykus.

[Toto]

Then I called you on your bullshit.

wait, where did you do this exactlY?

[Toto]

I"ve always loved the "I don't like the way you phrased the question, so I'm not going to answer it"

I'll return the favor: how often does this happen to you when you are scum?

[Toto]

pushing this is going to lead only to your lynch and my death.

Fine. You claimed PR. Making sure this is in my ISO if I get NK'ed tonight and not the supposed PR. You might as well do a full claim so we can confirm you and move on.

[Toto]

Toto what's up with that complacent tone? Why are you acting like this?

Toto, I'll put this here too since I don't remember seeing a reply to it. Guess that means that Tier is my partner, right? Cause they aren't pressuring you to answer that question.

I don't know what a complacent tone is

In our previous game you seemed like you wanted to work with everyone. In this game, you act like you know it all without interacting a whole lot.

In our previous game I was a late replacement in D1 and had a lot of info to sort things out. Also I replaced a highly suspected slot so had to play carefully. In this one there is not a lot of content and Im trying to get reactions of my top suspects.

[Toto]

pushing this is going to lead only to your lynch and my death.

Fine. You claimed PR. Making sure this is in my ISO if I get NK'ed tonight and not the supposed PR. You might as well do a full claim so we can confirm you and move on.

Not a fucking chance am I going to claim right now. What benefit does this give to the town right now? The only thing that me full claiming would do is give the scum team knowledge of who else might be in the game for us, and where they should shoot tonight. With the shitty push on me, and this right here is enough for you to see rope imo.

You are either scum pretending to be a PR or you are a real PR. Only you and/or scum know which of those is true at this point. The best you can do for town is a full claim to confirm which of the two options it is for us. This info is more important than whatever it is you think scum will learn. You are a known PR for scum if you are town. That is all they need.

You will claim. You can lynch me after you do that if that's what you want. I don't give a crap. But you are claiming your claim.

[Toto]

Because if he really is a PR we can tell whether he is telling the truth or not in newbies set up immediatelly. Im basically asking him to prove Im wrong about him being scum but he doesn't want to do it.

Im fine dropping this for today but if this scumfuck is alive tomorrow he better claims immediatelly in d2.

[Toto]

Except he already said he is a PR. He just doesnt want say which.

[Toto]

And why as town is it important to know which I am?

I don't care which PR you are.

All I care is whether you are telling the truth or not

. There is only two ways to know:

1) You die.
2) You tell us which PR you are.

[Toto]

Unless Toto is trying to say he's also PR and wants you to make it public in order to see if you claimed the role he has or not. Does that happen ever? Also I never saw where fish explicitly claims PR, he only says it would be really bad for the town if he was lynched and if he claimed it would likely result in Toto being lynched today and fish being killed in the night

What he did is called a softclaim. I just want to make sure that everyone saw it in case he survives the night. For two reasons:

1) If I saw it scum probably did too.
2) I don't trust his softclaim so early. Specially to ME. I'm his primary suspect. Why would he tell me he is a PR?

[Toto]

Please illuminate me.

[Toto]

What benefit does town gain from me full claiming?

Read post 242.

[Toto]

But I'll spell for you. Town gets to know whether you are real PR or scum softclaiming PR.

[Toto]

No. That is not the way it works in newbies. We can confirm whether you are telling the truth or not without revealing the other PR.

[Toto]

The other PR(s) wouldn't say anything unless there is a counter claim. Otherwise everyone says 'No counter-claim'

[Toto]

I don't follow. It would only reveal the potential set up we are playing. Say you claim doctor.

That means there can not be any Jailkeeper or Bulletproof. So if anyone else is a Doctor, Jailkeeper or Bulletproof they would counter claim. If they are cop or tracker they would just say 'No counter claim', same as everyone else. If everyone says 'No counter-claim' you are confirmed. If someone counter claims we lynch you.

[Toto]

yeah. it's up to fish if he wants to do this today or tomorrow.

VOTE: Fykus

[Toto]

Moogin. He already has a target on his back. If he is alive tomorrow I'd be very very suspicious. He needs to claim immediatelly if he survives.

[Toto]

Moogin. From the innactives who is your top suspect?

[Toto]

Trading one scum with a town PR nihgtkill sounds like a good bargain for town. That is one less mislymch, every towns member dream.

I had a town read on moogin and is one of the reasons for my naked vote on fykus. Lately I dont like her tone. She sounds confident and clueless at the same time which is a weird combination. But her case kind of made sense. My worry with Fykus is that he sounds like a newbie so he could just ne newbtown.

[Toto]

I mean. Its like you were cop and had a guilty result. Very good for town.

[Toto]

I already explained why Im voting fykus. It is mainly because he is not trying to solve the game.

Does my aggressive attitude strikes you as scum motivated? Im not making lots of friends

[Toto]

Thanks Tier. I love you bud.

[Toto]

It makes sense in my head. We can chat after the game. Just promise me you'll make him claim if i get lynched or nightkilled

[Toto]

Ok. Im at l-1. One more vote and Im lynched. Tier how many scum do you think are in my wagon?

[Toto]

I don't follow. It would only reveal the potential set up we are playing. Say you claim doctor.

That means there can not be any Jailkeeper or Bulletproof. So if anyone else is a Doctor, Jailkeeper or Bulletproof they would counter claim. If they are cop or tracker they would just say 'No counter claim', same as everyone else. If everyone says 'No counter-claim' you are confirmed. If someone counter claims we lynch you.

And now he is talking about setup props. Why would a power role ever reveal itself day one like that. Especially people like the doctor that don't really have any benefit from revealing until late game if they end up living for that long. If they do claim:
1) Scum can easily counterclaim and either get the player lynched or kill them at night.
2) scum can do nothing and laugh as they kill the player without anybody noticing.

Your thinking is comming from scum perspective.

Scum like to fly under the radar. I had already seen the PR softclaim. I had 0 reasons as scum to even bring it up.

[Toto]

My scum read claimed he is a PR. All I want to know if he is telling the truth or not.

Anyway, if you lynch me, and fish is alive tomorrow make him claim

[Toto]

Im ok trading 1:1 with scum. You wont die. Because you're scum.

[Toto]

If you are a PR prove it now. Get me lynched.

[Toto]

If I was scum I would already know if you are a PR or not based on your claim. I don't know and Im asking you to claim your actual role to confirm yourself. Your denial to do so is a scumclaim.

[Toto]

Tier please tell us if fish claiming his role would confirm if he is lying or not. You are the IC and can not lie about game theory.

Fish, if you are town scum already know you are a PR. You don't lose anything by claiming your actual role.

[Toto]

My scum read claimed he is a PR. All I want to know if he is telling the truth or not.

Anyway, if you lynch me, and fish is alive tomorrow make him claim

Is Fish your only SR?

Fish and fykus. Already explained this.

[Toto]

I woukd carefully review the wagon tomorrow though. Could be you or nydush

[Toto]

Tier please tell us if fish claiming his role would confirm if he is lying or not. You are the IC and can not lie about game theory.

Fish, if you are town scum already know you are a PR. You don't lose anything by claiming your actual role.

This isn't really game theory.

It is. It is also bare logic.

[Toto]

It does god dammit. I already explained this. Tier please confirm this. You can not lie.

Look at the set up table in post 1. He can not claim anything without the other prs knowing if he is lying or not.

[Toto]

Because he is not backing down. He really wants to get rid of me.

Moogin. He said again he is a PR in post 303

[Toto]

So what happened to your analysis of the set up table. What did you learn? Why change subject

[Toto]

So what happened to your analysis of the set up table. What did you learn? Why change subject

Your theory falls apart slightly toto on the offchance that scenarios B) 1) and 2) are the case. If he knows that there is no roleblocker and he's scum (obv), then 50% of the role setups have no second. That means that if he claims doctor or bulletproof, he can land in the scenario where he gets the right claim in B)1) and B)2).

If he claims doctor the other doctor or bp will counter claim. Easy.

[Toto]

You're looking for the smallest ways to get formerfish to claim his role. Horrific play as town. Excellent play as scum... if you weren't getting lynched

So its a good play as scum but also bad?

[Toto]

dude. I brought the softclaim up. Why would I do that if I was scum. It makes no sense.

[Toto]

I would just shoot you and leave town wondering what happened

[Toto]

Scum cares very little about the team composition. If someone pr softclaims he gets shots without making a fuss about it.

Anyway. Lynch this guy tomorrow if he is alive.

[Toto]

Oh yeah. You should already know Im a vt since I said I dont give a crap about getting lynched.

[Toto]

Unless you don't make it out of the day today and your partner missed it?

Seriously dude, I think I'm about done dealing with you.

Your game play is ridiculous as town

, and I feel like I'm banging my head against a wall trying to discuss anything with you.

Town dont point out softclaims. They recognize them, then they shut the fuck up about it until it is necessary for it to be vocalized. Think about it like a shut#out. You don't talk about the shut#out until it's over.

How do you know Im town?

[Toto]

Read my last post. He basically scumclaimed.

This ends with both of us dead.

[Toto]

Where

[Toto]

Tier doesnt have to be town just for defending me.

[Toto]

It is called whiteknighting if he is scum. However I have a town read on him for other reasons

[Toto]

But scum like to defend the townie who is about to get lynched sometimes because when it flips green it makes them
Look good

[Toto]

It's town I think.

Rolefishing so blatantly is something scum don't do because it makes them a likely lynch target, especially in a newbie game. Town are more indifferent towards getting lynched and will just do whatever they THINK is the correct play.

It was clear thwt he wanted to frame fish tho.

Frame fish? How?

[Toto]

Framing means Im trapping him somehow. Explain how am I doing that?

[Toto]

I was going to point something out. But I won't say anything else about fish today. If fish, is town then the scum in my wagon was either Fykys or Pep.

[Toto]

Smith. Replace me