Mini 1887 - Oddrole Mafia (Game over)

[Socrates]

I'm feeling saucy, and I think I'm going to claim. I have one pending question for the mod, but it doesn't affect whether or not this is a good idea, so whatever.

I'm a cheerleader! This means I'm a compulsive random roleblocker! No choice in who I roleblock at all! This means my role adds an element of uncertainty to all night actions in the game, both town and scum!

I'm basically a vanilla townie with some stuff that happens completely independent of me!

[Socrates]

Look at this gigantic mislynch opportunity right here.

Come at me, scum! I'm standing right out in the open, waving these pom-poms without a care in the world.

[Socrates]

Alban is more interested in having fun than in playing well.

Scum hang back from a claim like mine and watch to see the winds of the town.
Young town try to comment on claims like mine because they feel like it's important, so they should say something.
Old town hang back from a claim like mine and watch to see how I follow up. Am I just trying to get people to read me, or am

I

looking for reads?

At least one of the players voting Alban is scum.

Prana's is the strongest articulated vote. Dwlee is applying pressure as he should, but Alban is making it easy for him so that doesn't mean much.

@Gin: Do you think Alban is scummy, or just being dumb?

VOTE: Not_Mafia

[Socrates]

Scum hang back from a claim like mine and watch to see the winds of the town.
Young town try to comment on claims like mine because they feel like it's important, so they should say something.
Old town hang back from a claim like mine and watch to see how I follow up. Am I just trying to get people to read me, or am I looking for reads?

At least one of the players voting Alban is scum.

Uhmm, non sequitur?

Here are the winds of the town: Alban said something stupid about my claim. POUNCE! Scum didn't vote me, they voted Alban. There's a light chance that he's very flighty scum that said what he said, but that makes it even more likely that one of his buddies would make sure to get a vote on him early.

I am looking at the players that are surrounding the wagon and prodding at them. This isn't that complicated.

Note that Not_Mafia was the first to vote Alban. Silently.

[Socrates]

Scum voting you would be like voting someone for claiming miller: That is dumb.
Not mafia wasnt the first to vote alban, bork bork was in response to alban wanting to wagon someone. Not mafia did naked vote him, but Im hard pressed to say that means he is scum, regardless of alban's alignment. I have seen town naked vote plenty of times (and have done it myself, especially at the beginning of games.)
The players on the wagon are bork bork, not mafia, prana, menno, and me. Not mafia naked voting him making him scum seems even less likely when you consider bork bork's reason for a vote and menno's joining the wagon in response to alban saying there was a wagon on him (and knowing menno probably in a joking way.)

I must admit that I missed that Bork Bork was voting him, but that's really just an empty RVS vote before the point I'm talking about. Not_Mafia was the first to respond to Alban's post with a vote.

And yes, naked voting is not inherently a scum tell. I essentially naked voted Not_Mafia myself*. I was testing to see how he would handle the reciprocation. How serious is the vote? How self-conscious is he about it? Is he present and lurking as the wagon grows or just hasn't looked at the thread since his last vote? Yadda yadda yadaa. If he appeared and I liked what he said, I was planning to move my focus onto Menno. But that's all pretty much moot now that you've drawn attention to the vote and poo-poo'd it.

*Further note that Prana also naked voted Alban very soon after, but Prana then followed up and said more.

Gin and Tonic is also here, hanging out around the wagon. He +1'd Prana's reasoning to vote, but kept his own where it is and I don't believe he has said much about Alban's alignment. Hence the direct question.

This wagon is at L-2 and you directly asked another player to put their vote down on Alban and now another player has appeared and is about to vote. How happy are you with this? Are you really pot-committed on Alban being scum at this point? Enough to put him in claim territory?

[Socrates]

While I wasn't in love with the initial reason that people were voting alban, posts 50 and 53 make me feel much more comfortable with that wagon.

The points alban brings up in 50 are kind of irrelevant. No one is treating socrates claim as gospel truth really and there's not all that much to question about it. Furthermore alban's 'questioning' about it seems pretty directionless. His initial concern (22) seems more concerned with fun than alignment related stuff. (I do actually have a question about socrates' role that I'll get to later)

The second point in 50 is pretty bad too. Alban doesn't ask prana to explain his scumread further, he just assumes that prana can't and goes on the offensive. This is deflecting more than anything.

53 is more deflecting. Multiple people had at that point offered reasons for scumreading alban, so to say he feels no pressure is a cognate disonance that conveniently avoids addressing the points people brough up.

I'm not sure if alban is at L-2 or L-3 right now so I'll hold off voting until we get a count (I'm also too lazy to do one myself) but consider my vote to be there in spirit.

@socrates - Are you informed who you roleblocked?

Only scum would benefit from knowing that information today, so I'm going to play that close to my chest for now. (They need to know if I'm a potential excuse or a potential threat)

You hold off on voting for a vote count, but you sound like you planning to vote him regardless of what it turns out to be. Am I correct?

[Socrates]

We're on page 3 and already so close to a lynch.

Spyrex would be so proud.

[Socrates]

A+ recovery. Smooth as silk.

[Socrates]

I'm back after a few days of hecticness.

Prana: You never got off the Alban wagon yourself despite your current attitude about the it. You better have a damn good explanation.

2) If you remember when I was last here, I was vocally astounded that people were letting the wagon develop as it was without issue myself. I was sure,

sure

, that at least one of the wagoners was going to come in and be like "what I don't want this" and unvote. But even you didn't.

3) I'm dealing with preparing to move houses at the moment. Life is busy.

4)Not_Mafia, Bork Bork, and fuck, I dunno, not enough people are posting to leave any impression at all!. I wanna see some real posting from Gin in particular, but he's V/LA.

Jaack would have been in my top 3, but he's dead now.

Look at Not_Mafia's Iso and tell me that's acceptable.

158 is in fact a bad post, but one that doesn't come from mafia.

I am unfamiliar with Dwlee as a player, but a ScumDwlee would have to be a very bold player to try to strongarm a mislynch day one this hard.

Both Dwlee and Alban's arguments against eachother amount to "No u". It's mutual tunnelling at it's finest.

VOTE: Not_Mafia

Pre edit: I get prodded as I am writing this post. Figures.

[Socrates]

It's a fine line between "it makes sense that scum would post this" and "scum would post this, yet town would not." or "Scum would benefit from posting in this way."

I'm looking at Dwlee again, and maybe my dismissal of tunneling was precisely the wrong thing to do.

He keeps saying that Alban's posts are "odd" or "off" or it "rubs him wrong", either being unwilling or unable to dig deeper into Alban's posts to come up with much strategic intent behind them other than the parts where they keep calling each other scummy for calling each other scummy.

@Dwlee, as far as I can tell, you entire case against Alban is that you don't like the feel of his posts and the fact that he is pushing back on you. Let's see a real case out of you, yeah?

[Socrates]

"Says some stuff"

"didn't logically follow"

You didn't understand my words, and maybe this is my fault, but at least admit that it might have been on you to grasp what I was saying.

[Socrates]

@Dwlee, as far as I can tell, you entire case against Alban is that you don't like the feel of his posts and the fact that he is pushing back on you. Let's see a real case out of you, yeah?

That is not the whole thing, I've already said my problems with alban's posting, you can look at my iso for that.

Nope. Not seeing much.

Please help this old codger out by taking a minute out of your day to put it all together in a single post.

[Socrates]

If you would be so kind, further contextualize why, at the time I first asked you, you were

so sure

that Alban was scum back on page 3.

And are you still that sure? You're not voting him.

[Socrates]

Jesus christ, Dwlee, you have yet again failed to understand the words that I am saying to you. And you are apparently incapable of conceiving of this being because of anything other than my logic being nonsensical whilst yours is perfect and cohesive and clear to all around you.

You are either scum or a belligerent, dense, AND arrogant townie.

I find myself hoping it's the former.

and since nothing short of a prod is going to get Not_Mafia to post,

VOTE: Dwlee

I'm out until other people decide to start chiming in.

[Socrates]

Apathy is contagious, and at this point my interest is at a complete nadir. I can't even bring myself to be annoyed at Not_Mafia, though he still gets my vote back.

In a calmer mind, it's hard to call Dwlee scum when he's one of the few players that actually seems active and participatory. He got on my nerves, but I shouldn't scum-read him for it. And If he is scum, he deserves to trample this town.

VOTE: Not_Mafia

Sup everyone....

While

I

* am reading, who are our top 2/3 scum and top 2/3 town.

Please include me if you feel I fit into any one of those categories.

scum:
Not_Mafia
The rest of the lurkers

town:
Prana
PimHel
60% of the lurkers

I'm beginning to wonder if this is one of those games that's going to turn out to have a whole bunch of "wacky" third party roles who have zero incentive to really participate in the day game. Those games are always a trainwreck with this kind of a day/night structure, because those players tend to just sit around waiting for night. A two week long wait.

*Had to fix typo in quoted. Had to.

[Socrates]

I dont see why post restriction isnt possible.

Because the game draws from chatbot mafia, and even with an original role or two, it would be out of place for a role to not at least theoretically fit in with the rest.

Maybe the Mod gave a player a crippling post restriction just to break that expectation.

I doubt it.

[Socrates]

If Not_Mafia tried to communicate having a restriction earlier than he did, maybe I would be willing to play ball, but what is his restriction even supposed to be, Dwlee?

[Socrates]

I mean, let's face it, its more like that he's a jester in this particular game.

Maybe he's a fucking jester.

Jesus.

I have made a mistake.

Kill me.

Day killer! Whoever you are! Shoot me! Me!

[Socrates]

likely*

[Socrates]

Hi Dwlee.

Okay Not_Mafia.

Are you a jester.

Vote McMeno yes or bang no.

You kidding? Why would s jester tell us that he is jester?

Read this-
Jesters have been seen with a few hindering modifiers attached to them, such as Even-Day (the Jester only wins if it is lynched on an even-numbered Day) or a post restriction. In other games, players are told that there is a Jester in the game. This does not usually change that the Jester eventually wins.

Based on all of the above, Jester is generally considered a bastard role.

Read more at-
https://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Jester

At least back in my day, (*waves cane in the air*) common policy was to ask jesters to just claim. If they did, then the town lynched them.

If they were a Jester with a non-exclusive victory: Good, a non-protown role has been removed from the game early, thats a worthwhile use of a day 1 lynch.
If they were a Jester with an exclusive victory: Good, Jesters are stupid and no fun to deal with and now the game is over and we can move on with our lives.
If they were a scum trying to pretend to be a jester: Everyone shares a hearty laugh about how stupid they were to claim jester.

[Socrates]

On that note, if anyone OTHER than Not_Mafia happens to be a jester, by all means, go ahead and claim.

[Socrates]

Game is, in fact, bastard. Jaack was mysteriously daykilled.

[Socrates]

Assuming that Jaack was killed by conscious choice and not the whim of some wacky bastard role, context would imply a protown motivation to whoever killed Jaack, but whoever they are, they didn't use their power by posting it in the thread.

I would go into more detail about what I think happened, but even if I'm right I don't want to draw attention to it.

Based on our last game, I guessing I shouldn't wait for you to read the thread?

[Socrates]

Well, Jaack said some scummy things and I'm betting that they primarily shot him to derail a shit wagon by resetting the vote count. Saying anything more would start having to name names and if we do have a dayvig I don't want to help the scumz find him.

If the daykiller IS mafia, Alban is scum. No ifs, ands, or buts.

Might be third party though.

[Socrates]

Well, Jaack said some scummy things and I'm betting that they primarily shot him to derail a shit wagon by resetting the vote count.

This seems premised upon your reads being correct though.

Only premised on someone out there agreeing that it was a shit wagon. Alban can be scum independent of this theoretical daykiller.

You'd understand if you saw the wagon. One of the laziest wagons to get to L-1 I've ever seen.

[Socrates]

If I remember correctly, someone tried to hammer, forgetting he was already on the wagon. And it wasn't a trick. That level of lazy.

[Socrates]

Right. Alban can be scum independent of the motivations of the daykiller. But if the daykiller is scum, then the only reason for him to shoot is because his partner was about to be turbo lynched.

If you press any further, I'm going to start suspecting you're trying to get me to direct you to said daykiller, which I'm not going to do.

[Socrates]

Other things you should know: I claimed in my first post. Look it up yourself. Alban claimed reflexive disabler at L-1. Alban arguably should have claimed out of the gate, but he also poo-poo'd me doing exactly that as being no fun, which was precisely why he got wagonned.

Your slot was on the wagon.

[Socrates]

Other things you should know: I am drunk.

[Socrates]

It could be daySK, but I'll just straight say,

Daykiller, if you're a member of the mafia and Alban is NOT your partner and you shot when you did, you're bad at this game and you should feel bad.

(Yes, yes, assuming optimal play blah blah blah. Leave me alone)

I suppose a a scum motivated player might have rushed to get his DK in before the hammer just because he wanted to use his ability, but eh.

[Socrates]

Jaack was far from obv town. Also was one of the people wanting to hop on the alban turbo lynch, but was hesitating. I had been contemplating a vote on Jaack myself when I saw he was killed.

Alban could be the daykiller himself and the disabler claim is fake, I suppose.

The only reason for scum to shoot Jaack in particular that I can think of would have to be meta reasons that are beyond my knowledge.

[Socrates]

I think sorting alban might just be the key to resolving d1.

VOTE: alban

Maybe. My townread on Alban isn't actually that strong, and this day has been a slog. I'll sleep on it. I don't wanna drunk hammer.*

And this might just be the alchohol talking, but I like that you can at least keep up with me enough to hold a conversation. That's more than I can say about most of this town.

*or do I?

[Socrates]

Fuck it. Sober me would never hammer. I already know this.

But fuck that guy. He's a stick in the mud. Let's not let that dweeb drag things out just because it's the 'right and proper' thing to do.

VOTE: alban

Maybe day 2 will be more interesting.

[Socrates]

My role remains the same..

This is a bastard game guys, I am literally immortal.....

Go ahead, try and lynch me

Will the day end in no-lynch, then?
Or will the lynch just dissapate?

My intuition on the dayvig seems to have born out.

@Dwlee: are the goo and the roleblock explicitly linked?

[Socrates]

If you think you have a second vote, you should test to find out now, sooner than later.

[Socrates]

Prodded.

Forgot I was playing this game.

Daykiller, shoot McMenno. He's proposing the massclaim to attempt to hunt you, probably because he doesn't actually care about your alignment and wants you dead regardless. That is to say, he is probably mafia. It is still in your interest to hunt mafia today even if you are SK. Also, insert observation about current player count here and then further observations about the way this day will progress if you don't kill him. You're smart; you know what you're doing. I don't need to explain these things to you.

[Socrates]

Perhaps people will start opening their traps once McMenno is dead.

Perhaps not. I have little faith in Bork Bork. Or Momo. Aronagrundy finally said some things yesterday. Things not altogether bad. You also ignored their last post.

@Bork Bork, do you usually active lurk as town, or would you -- presuming that you yourself will insist that you ARE town, obviously. Feel free to claim scum if you wish -- say that this game is an aberration for you?

Dwlee was kinda the glue that was holding this game together.

[Socrates]

The more I actively think about it, the more I would also accept a daykill on Bork Bork.

The irony of McMenno being dismissive of this town's attitude is palpable, but Bork Bork makes him look goddamn prolific.

[Socrates]

Prodded.

Forgot I was playing this game.

Daykiller, shoot McMenno. He's proposing the massclaim to attempt to hunt you, probably because he doesn't actually care about your alignment and wants you dead regardless. That is to say, he is probably mafia. It is still in your interest to hunt mafia today even if you are SK. Also, insert observation about current player count here and then further observations about the way this day will progress if you don't kill him. You're smart; you know what you're doing. I don't need to explain these things to you.

yes. I, as scum, proposed a massclaim to

this town, this town

, which was, and still is, very,

very

heavily against a massclaim since Day 1, and would grab any excuse to lynch anyone! Great, great scumplay everyone!!!! game solved go home

you know what? you're proposing that the daykiller kill me without a claim? well guess what, I'm MOTHERFUCKING batman, and I SHOT dwelee tonight. that's right! feel free to shoot me, I'm a sitting duck. if you're an sk then good job, if you're a townie then prepare to lose. disgusting.

VOTE: bork bork

Okay, there are a significant number of issues here, and I am going to try to work with you here because I am not so conceited as not talk to my scumreads.

First of all: Batman is a killing role? What the fucking fuck. I looked at the role list and it only listed Bruce Wayne. Please elaborate in more detail.

Second of all: The only person I remember vocally shouting down massclaim day 1 was PranaDevil, who replaced out. Correct me if I'm wrong. If I'm not, scum you could totally have thought that the current makup of the town would be more amicable to massclaim.

Third of all: You wouldn't need to expect the town to acquiesce to a massclaim, just for them to not scumread you for it. I would not be surprised to see scum think to propose a massclaim expecting the daykiller to be the most vocal anti-massclaim voice. THIS could be how you, as scum, would propose the massclaim to hunt the daykiller. I said that your speculation about the daykiller day 1 doesn't come from scum, but I forgot to consider the possibility that you might have been indirectly rolefishing for the real daykiller to respond. I look at the fact that the scum killed Gin/Momo's slot and I go hum.

Fourth of all: I forget my fourth point. I am yet again drunk. And no, I am not scum pretending to be drunk to justify being dumb. Rather, I am significantly more verbose when I am drunk. Respond with the knowledge that I will chat your ear off, yet might pass out at any moment.

Oh right!

Fourth of all: Appeal to competence is silly, because if you were dumb to do this as scum, you are equally dumb to do this as town.

[Socrates]

Massclaim is the dumbest idea ever.

Scum will no exactly who to lynch,
.
But I will claim.

My role is GOD.

The role list was not fully complete. The mod said it himself. I pretty much win no matter

Ah, so you're a third party survivor that automatically wins regardless of what happens. What a clever and well designed role.

[Socrates]

Oh right!

Point the fifth: You are claiming responsibiliy for the only nightkill last night?

[Socrates]

yes. when not_mafia died I became batman, a vig/rb/doctor

and I don't do shitty gambits like this as scum. I would just let this apathetic fucking town implode upon itself. as you can see it's easy enough

because if you were dumb to do this as scum, you are equally dumb to do this as town.

this sentence doesn't make any sense btw

You talk like you, as scum, would KNOW that the town would shit on a massclaim proposal and descend upon you for it. Why would you not have this observation as town?

You are not stuck in the view that sapience is a scumtell, are you?

[Socrates]

YES

Okay. Feel like elaborating on the batman role in further detail?

Why the fuck did you kill Dwlee? Because of the accidental hammer?

[Socrates]

I thought when the role PM's said "BUDDY1", that meant they were of the same alignment as the role. Is this not true?

[Socrates]

Oh, you explained batman.

The vig part should not be a part of the batman role. His sole defining trait is that he refuses to kill.

[Socrates]

He should be a cop! He's the greatest detective on earth!

[Socrates]

and I don't do shitty gambits like this as scum. I would just let this apathetic fucking town implode upon itself. as you can see it's easy enough

Oh yeah, the scumteam has no reason to fear the rest of this town (other than MEEEEEEEEEE! and maybe PimHel, but look at him! He's gone now. (but they might just be betting on me remaining demoralized by my fellow players*)). But the daykiller? He already killed one of the mafia, and him being pro-town, in my view, is really the only possiblity of this town winning.

*RandomMidget becoming more active "now that the weak have been weeded out" when the players replacing out were probably the strongest players getting out because they hated this game suddenly comes back to mind.

[Socrates]

Do you think all of the remaining anti-town roles voted you, McMenno?

Daykiller, I am now more happy with a dead Bork Bork.

VOTE: Bork Bork

[Socrates]

Passing out now.

[Socrates]

Daykiller got goo'd, didn't he? That's why he hasn't shot yet.

RandomMidget, do you think the daykiller is third party?

If McMenno is claiming responsibility for the kill last night, I might have roleblocked the mafia kill. I had honestly expected them to shoot me last night, and maybe they tried!

Unfortunately, Aronagrundy, I do not know who I roleblock.

BUT! We know from Dwlee yesterday that at least some active roles are notified when they get roleblocked? I'm pretty sure I blocked him Night 1. Unless we can get confirmation from our Oddrole experts on whether GreenGoo roleblocks the night it is used?

But if I die and someone later claims to have been roleblocked night 1 or 2, keep these observations in mind.

@Viridian, I had speculated that the game was being weighed down by third parties day one, so this just validates what I already suspected. Do you think Bork Bork is town?

[Socrates]

BUDDY1 is a randomly selected player at the time that roles are randomly determined. Bangthemafia's BUDDY1 was Dwlee99 for instance (see here).

Okay. The word 'buddy' is confusing about this.

[Socrates]

Viridian isn't the daykiller? Shit! There goes my entire view of the gamestate!

@Alban
have you ever seen such an early claim before?

Vote Dwlee99

Just to re-confirm my awesome vote

P.S. Jaack deserves votes as well

Then this weak wagon can now disband. Your post was good for a wagon to get out of the RVS, but not to get this close to a lynch.

Two posts later, Jack was killed and the votecount reset. I thought he was breadcrumbing his role for a future dayvig claim.

If you go back, everytime I refer to the daykiller I had been specifically talking to PimHel, and his dayplay is a big part of why I was inclined to hope that he really was pro-town rather than just third party choosing to aggressively hunt the mafia, but I had to plan around the possibility that he was an SK that would kill me if he thought I was on to him and planning to out him, when I wanted him to continue shooting the mafia.

My plan going into today was to try to convince him that shooting the mafia was still in his best interest and that I had his back, and then if he did shoot as I wanted to and my proposed targets DID flip scum, I would immediately turn around and out him to the town and get him lynched.

Now I don't know what the fuck.

Doesn't affect my scum-read on Bork Bork, other than needing to now consider that they are something other than mafia.

Momo is going to have to explain how the fuck the sentence "I pretty much win regardless" comes from the mouth of a pro-town player.

Viridian is simply posting too much genuinely thoughtful volume to be scum, even if I don't take his soft-claim at face value.

RM is mechanically town, as Viridian said.

I would like to see Titus vote, and I don't want her to hammer.

Viridian, if you would like me to respond directly to your analysis of my play beyond what I have outlined here, I will be happy to later.

[Socrates]

Looking at the votecount, this almost feels like the classic townies on one wagon, scum on the other, stalemate until whoever breaks first.

Or Titus can throw out of vote.

I'm temped to say I'd be down for a Grundy wagon if Bork is going nowhere, but I feel like I always end up regretting that kind of move.

[Socrates]

See: Day 1.

[Socrates]

though I'm struggling what makes him "confirmed town"

Green goo is town only, according to the role list. RM claimed to be the one who goo'd dwlee night 1. Since it was night one, he has to be the original, thus he must be the town Green goo, even if there now exist anti-town green goo's.

[Socrates]

It just occured to me that Dwlee might have goo'd as well as Rando's, so I guess I can't assume that the person Rando Goo'd is the serial killer.

Bah.

Back to the drawing board a third time.

[Socrates]

And why haven't I been goo'd yet? Haven't we all agreed that my role is overall negative utility? We can solve that problem without killing me.

[Socrates]

I guess re:Socrates, I think his claim makes him likely to be exactly {town/mafia} and his behavior makes him likely to be exactly {town/3P} which probably makes him just town but I still struggle to feel like I fully understand where he's coming form. A more in-depth response to my earlier post would be welcome.

'kay

13. Socrates

Most of my crack theories about this game revolve around him. Him turning on his townread of the D1 lynch was disappointing. Him falling off thereafter and not reacting at all to Not_Mafia's death creeped me out. There's times when I feel like I'm just not parsing his view of the game state/his emotional trajectory. I suspect these things may be more "having complex internal reactions to this game bc actually trying to solve the game" indicative than scum indicative, but for the moment I'm not willing to commit to a read here.

I can't really sugar coat this: I hammered Alban out of fairly selfish motivations. I was fed up with the town not listening to me (Dwlee, the only player who even responded to my vote on Not_Mafia, literally could not follow my train of thought), the alban wagon was filled with dead fish that seemingly weren't interested in posting at all, let alone moving their votes, and in the moment I had conceded to Titus that the alban wagon spiraling out of control was not truly alignment indicative*

One thing I've always felt that gets lost for replacements is a sense for the actual pace of posting as the game is live. It's one thing to look at timestamps and observe a 48 hour period where the only people talking were me and Dwlee, it's another thing entirely to have to live that reality.

Then we had ANOTHER round of replacements, and at that point I had written this game off entirely, so I just said 'fuck it' and hammered because I wanted to move the game forward and, in all honesty, just wanted to see my read of the gamestate validated. I had stopped thinking about winning the game.

And lo, Alban was town and Not_Mafia flipped scum. My read that the mafia magnetized to the easiest wagon AFTER my claim was, in fact, validated. But I couldn't exactly brag about this, what with being the one to hammer Alban and not having a hand in Not_Mafia's actual death. And there really wasn't much to say about Not_Mafia's flip itself; he was the most obvious scum that ever scummed. So I didn't say much in my first post, and then Dwlee accidentally hammered and that's it for day 2.

And then I've already outlined my thought process going into today earlier this morning.

Any other questions?

*In retrospect and sobriety, I have to go back and say that while this might have been true of the initial wagon, the way everyone piled BACK on the wagon a second time after the daykill should have been very telling. Any bussing scum would have taken the opportunity to let the wagon on their buddy die.

[Socrates]

I forgot that BorkBork was V/LA. I thought he was just lurking.

Forget my impatience.

[Socrates]

Let's be honest, Bork Bork claiming grey goo wasn't going to save him. He MIGHT have been the motivator, though, and that would have been important information to know. Can shuffler be pro-town? He might have been the shuffler, too.

Those are two pieces of missing information that the scum can take advantage off, I guess.

Let's resolve this, though:

Rando: There's no point in hiding it at this point. Who did you target last night?

[Socrates]

Viridian, does this mean the SK has effectively been rendered a neutral survivor, or are they still a threat with your ability?

[Socrates]

Excuse me while I marinate in the irony that the slot that I thought was the daykiller BECAME the daykiller the moment I stopped thinking they were.

[Socrates]

UNLESS HE'S BEEN THE DAYKILLER ALL ALONG AND THIS SHUFFLER BUSINESS IS JUST SOME CLEVER PLOY!

HMMMMMMMMMMM!!!!!!!

[Socrates]

Not only has no one claimed the other half of this shuffle, but there has been no indication of anything like this happening night 1.

I'm not seriously considering this, because it's crazy.

But.

But.

Someone slap me before I fall down this rabbit hole.

[Socrates]

The role thread is vague, but Forensics expert as according to the wiki: https://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?ti ... vestigator

I speculated that I blocked dwlee N1, so me showing up there confirms that.

Unless McMenno is claiming that the chatbot role works differently than in the wiki, I am perplexed why he would immediately jump to the conclusion that I am scum. And if he is trying to say that, he himself is lying scum.

[Socrates]

Emphasis on "possibly".

You are deliberately stretching a vague summation of a complex role to call me scum when by all indications it in fact validates all claimed information.

Giving you a chance to say "whoops I misunderstood the role!" outs me as scum? Laughable. You didn't think this out very well.

VOTE: mcmenno

[Socrates]

And if you ARE town that GENUINELY misunstands how forensics investigator works and chose to double down on that misunderstanding, I will be so mad. So, so, mad.

[Socrates]

I can now see why you typically don't gambit as scum: you are awful at it.

[Socrates]

btw thanks for outing yourself by first throwing some good ol' shade instead of starting to persecute me immediately

I see this garbage rhetoric with a disappointing frequency, so while we wait for the rest of the thread to come lynch you, allow me to take a moment and expound on why this is straight nonsense.

Presume that you, the subject, are in fact town.
IF there comes into being a scenario where another player, who is also town, has reason to suspect you, it is in the interest of both him, you, AND THE ENTIRE TOWN for him to

attempt

to identify that their suspicion is misplaced and that you are the townie that you say you are rather than leap straight onto your dick.

IF you are a townie, it should never be a scumtell for another player to fail to assume that you are scum.

[Socrates]

The only time this logic even APPEARS to make sense is when scum knows themselves to be in a one on one trade scenario and the other player fails to be as certain, and, in such a scenario, this would ONLY be apparent to the SCUM THEMSELF.

[Socrates]

and just in case somebody missed it, allow me to link to the wiki page that actually explains how the forensics investigator works a second time: https://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?ti ... vestigator

It is easy to look at the thread discription and see that it is a simplified, poorly worded version of this.

McMenno is claiming that the role identifies solely whoever killed the target, seemingly without considering that such a role would be WILDLY overpowered. That would basically just equate to the mod just straight telling a player who the mafia is.

[Socrates]

Parse this for me.

But if the chatbot role DOES work the way McMenno says it does, there's not much I can say other than to remind people of this little tidbit:

the mod pm'd me: "It's not a mod error in itself but not everything will 100% mirror the bots mechanics either"

so I'm pretty sure he's just immortal

it's also annoying because we have to wait for a replacement now...

I have little choice but to believe that the mod went with the wiki version of the role.

If this turns out to be me going 2 for 2 on games being screwed over by mod error since returning to the site, I won't even be angry. Just depressed.

[Socrates]

If arona is a serial killer that has had their only method of winning taken away, then they deserve some kind of sportsmanship award for not immediately flaking, but instead putting in real effort that would have to be for no real purpose.

[Socrates]

If arona is a serial killer that has had their only method of winning taken away, then they deserve some kind of sportsmanship award for not immediately flaking, but instead putting in real effort that would have to be for no real purpose.

Note: I have been burned by having this exact thought in the past.

[Socrates]

Well, that's what my comment about being screwed over by mod error was about, because if he did commit an error, there's little chance of us being able to untangle it without the game being compromised.

And I forgot about Rando's claim. There's always the possibility that he lied somehow and for some reason.

If arona lied about the results of their ability, then kudos to them for creatively sowing chaos and that would happen to disprove your statement that your power couldn't be abused by an anti-town role.

But there's also a possibility that the mod took a third interpretation of the role, and only revealed who targeted Dwlee LAST night, rather than for the whole game. What this would mean is that I roleblocked dwlee last night (for possibly the second night in a row) and McMenno killed Dwlee. Under such a scenario, I could not have blocked the mafia nightkill and there's no other means of explaining it's absence, which would imply that McMenno himself is the mafia.

We do need clarification on how the role works, but I'm surprised that neither you nor Arona had already asked these questions.

[Socrates]

Like, did your role PM just say what it said in the list thread verbatim?

[Socrates]

But yeah put yourself in my shoes. I look at the player list for mafia, and by POE I'm basically down to McMenno and Titus. And then this happens.

If YOU'RE somehow scum by means that I failed to recognize, then kudos to you, you put way more work into this game than you needed to.

[Socrates]

Well, I'm signing off for the night.

In case the town decides to lynch me, a warning: there is a very good chance that the mafia endgames us TONIGHT between possible third party role interaction and the possibility of killing the immortal's lover. If everyone is who they seem to be, then rando might need to goo Momo's slot just to prevent a double kill.

[Socrates]

Let's be honest, Bork Bork claiming grey goo wasn't going to save him. He MIGHT have been the motivator, though, and that would have been important information to know. Can shuffler be pro-town? He might have been the shuffler, too.

Those are two pieces of missing information that the scum can take advantage off, I guess.

Let's resolve this, though:

Rando: There's no point in hiding it at this point. Who did you target last night?

i targetted dwlee both nights. i was trying to figure out if i was the goo-er or not. if someone else got goo ed then i was the motivator, if someone else got motivated then i was the goo.
socrates has some good points here, but we need to ask the mod about role functionalities first. im rly tired atm so im going to re read the last few pages to make sure i understand them later

Whelp.

[Socrates]

I didn't go 2 for 2 on mod errors, but I did go 2 for 2 on games with stupidly overpowered towns.

I suppose this is what Prana was ranting about day 1.

[Socrates]

Like, mods, it's no fun to play as scum and to know that regardless of how well you play, you are just going to lose to some mindless power role. Please stop putting those kinds of roles in your games.

A fucking Sensor?

And now a fucking Forensic Investigator? The role that is literally noted as being "Tremendously overpowered" in the wiki? And this is actually an

even better

version?

At least make your investigative roles require some kind of thought to use.

[Socrates]

Okay, I'm done growsing, it was a pleasure playing with you all.

I would like to especially compliment Viridian, she breathed new life into this game and deftly walked the line of being thoughtful and shrewd while remaining friendly and approachable. An admirable skillset.

Dwlee, don't take my flip to mean that our issues communicating was just me being disingenuous. I was giving you real advice on how to hunt scum. You do have talent, kid. You're just a little naive.

[Socrates]

VOTE: socrates

[Socrates]

SOCRATES

I MISS UYPU


ALSOC MENNO

<3

[Socrates]

So my main takeaway here is that scum actually can replace out when they're doing perfectly well but are mad about town shitposting. Haven't ever seen that before.

@eager thanks for modding; I don't 100% agree with all mod decisions made but thanks for the experience

It should never be the responsibility of the scum team to keep a game alive. i was literally contemplating replacing out myself when Prana did so, which him doing so was really the main reason I chose to stick it out. It felt like it would have been too hard on the Mod.

[Socrates]

Also I hammered a stated townread and would have gotten away with it if it wasn't for that pesky serial killer and his forensics kit.

This game was a slog at the start, but I really started enjoying it by day 3.

[Socrates]

I just think it's funny I successfully blocked a kill with my role with my lazy ass claim

I don't know if the mod plans the share the scum PT, but I think you would get a kick out of how you ended up getting shot. It's not for the reasons you think.

[Socrates]

I just don't like night start because I feel bad for the people who die N0.

This is a fairly common sentiment. a No-kill night 0 is a possible solution, but I would suggest you give the mafia something else to do night 0 just so it feels fair. Like make sure they have a rolecop or something along those lines.

[Socrates]

Oh yes. Having someone to bounce off of like that was quite fun. The key to enjoying playing as mafia, I have found, is to not take it so seriously or obsess over winning. It's why I can't really get mad at Not_Mafia's antics, as poorly as it went over with the town. The way he kept up the schtick in the PT made me laugh. The comedic timing on him getting shot was also perfect.