Newbie 1779 | Spring | Endgame

[mastina]

Right, so beginning my explanation.
The first thing you should know is a little quirk in my RVS reads--while

normally

, I read things post-by-post, sometimes, especially in the case of the RVS, I cheat: I read the entire page before commenting on the page. This is the secret sauce behind a large section of my reads. So while I'll quote the FIRST post that a player makes during the RVS, that post is not necessarily the foundation upon which I build their alignment.

In particular: When it came to RC, I knew that regardless of his alignment, he was going to type 6 no matter what. There might've been a difference between wording, but the general RVS vote was going to be formatted basically that way no matter what. I felt that if there was an alignment it was more likely to be town than not--this is true enough, but that's a big "if". (And coming from me, the girl who reads a lot into RVS votes, that should tell you quite a lot in how little I valued it.)

However

, largely (ironically enough) thanks to mhsmith, I became aware of RC's reasoning behind 12. I also liked on the same subject 23. While it is true that RC as scum would probably make the same argument (I maintain that the BP claim is neither harmful nor helpful to either side), the way that RadiantCowbells went about his stance felt incredibly town. Additionally, his post 10, where he explained the history behind his RVS, also felt immensely town--while his INITIAL RVS would be almost identical regardless of alignment, his followthrough posting would be different.

And the way he went about it, the wording he chose, the order of his posting, and his focus, it all felt town. The reason I labeled him with "Town?" rather than "town.", though, is because I am admittedly not intimately familiar with RadiantCowbells's scumgame. While I don't

think

his approach came from scum, I lacked the knowledge to for sure say someone of his caliber absolutely couldn't be scum with that entrance.

[mastina]

As for the

rest

of page one: I already explained why I took issue with aa-dono's 7: the inclusion of 'lel'. That little thing changed the tone of the entire post from something which was definitely from town into something which could come from either and looked ever so slightly bad to me tonality-wise, thus, "scum?". The followthrough post 8 was entirely null from the slot--I could see that coming both from town and scum equally, so it did nothing to influence my read.

Unfortunately, one problem with mental notes is that if I don't write them down, I can forget them--this is the case for DogWatch's posts, in that while I read them as worse than aa-dono's, I'm looking at them now and for the life of me I can't remember which of them gave me the scumread. The best I can give a guess at is this:

VOTE: aa-dono

why do you feel the need to return fire immediately on an RVS?

...Where DogWatch asked this question and yet kept the RVS vote on JustDanceWorld rather than trying to vote oldwino, though I'm less-than-certain that was my reasoning and if it WAS my reasoning it's something I know would be more playstyle-dependent than anything else, which is probably why I went with "scum?" rather than a stronger "scum".

For oldwino, the problem was in...basically every aspect of his posts.

@ aa-dono
Why does my name mock you? I am old, and a wino. That's me in real life and in my avatar. From what I can tell, you are young (so are you a wino?). Opposites attract, you know. What does your name mean, anyway? And back at you.
VOTE: aa-dono
Also, lynching the IC would be a disadvantage to newbies, right, since he is a major information source for us?

For this post, I felt the questioning of aa-dono was forced, and the self-admitted OGMUS vote was awkward. It didn't feel like a natural reason to return a vote. There didn't seem to be lighthearted banter attached to the vote, nor was there serious scumhunting. (Either would have been acceptable OMGUSes.) It was an RVS vote which was declared to be as much, with no attempt to make it more.

His bit about lynching the IC being a disadvantage also failed to take into consideration the possibility of a scum IC--this felt like a slip of knowledge. If he were town, then I felt that he (especially having already played one game) would have a heightened sense of awareness that the IC isn't special in terms of being granted immunity. I also disliked how in the above post (I edited it out), he held one stance on things, then in his next...

I'll take some time to read the logic you cited, from RadiantCowbells, and then decide.

I think Dong, as the IC in my first game, was very valuable until he got bored and kinda laid back. As an experienced player, and a tracker in that game, if he'd tracked Arona N1 and Desp N2, he would have seen them both at the kill site.
Rab, the 1shot, had to claim D1 or he would have been lynched D1. In retrospect, that may have been really helpful to town. Someone, I forget who, said that in the Endgame chat.

So I'm reading the logic you cited from Radiant and thinking about it. Lots of time left in D1.

...He went onto lack commitment. He backtracked, and fencesat. He put words forward, but didn't do anything with the words. There being plenty of time left in the day felt like an excuse.

I realize it's not rock-solid logic, but between the bad stances and the appeasement-heavy tone, that's why oldwino was a scumread even off of the first page.

[mastina]

I should mention: there was one other player who posted on page one: mhsmith.
Notably, mhsmith was absent from my page one list altogether--why?

Because he sat at ambivalence. His entrance in 11 was null--I couldn't read an alignment into it one way or another.
I disliked how he immediately went to support RC in 13--without a single thought, he followed the claim, no hesitation and no reason given.
However, because mhsmith made it clear in 16 and 24 that he had experience with RadiantCowbells and the BP claim, it became more ambiguous--he laid out his reasons well enough. They didn't seem particularly scum, nor town. They just felt like reasons.

The main thing which I disliked about mhsmith at this stage is that even back then...he wasn't doing much. As I said above, he was giving words and giving reasons but they didn't feel like they were meant to accomplish anything...
...

However

, let's be real: this was the first page. I mean. *I* tend to do quite a lot if I'm on the first page. But that's ME. I didn't realistically expect mhsmith to be producing hard, solid content on the first page, even though I hated its absence.

[mastina]

Blah.
I could continue this for another couple of hours or so, but I'm afraid I need to put it on hold for the time being.
I realize I've only done one page of 20, and that I had momentum going and now I'm killing it, and that I'm not nearly close to complete, buuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuut...

...When I started doing this work, I was physically fine.
Now, I am coughing. To my knowledge, I'm not sick--but if I stay up because of a mafia game, I probably would become sick.

I do apologize for the inconvenience, but I

should

have most of tomorrow free. (I don't have dance tomorrow.)
I'm not happy leaving my work unfinished, but I suppose an appetizer is better than nothing at all for the night.
Basically, I'm taking a precaution and going to bed early (well, early for ME anyway), as to attempt health in real life > mafia life.

Tomorrow, I will resume, after
-I get caught up again
-I answer any questions
-I incorporate any requests I can into my explanation. (For instance, one thing I want to do is steal from future posts and reference them for earlier posts, which makes my stances easier to follow. As an example, my first page posts could have referenced 227 but did not, even though referencing 227 would make it easier to understand when I do get to covering things around the time of 227. This is something which I could actually use feedback on--if you want me to reference a specific later post of mine for my page two posting, now would be the time to request it.)

Again, many apologies I am making the call to not do it all at once. I will try to do all of the rest of the 19 pages after I attempt to get a proper night's sleep and stave off a potential illness.

[Icy]

We need EC's and maybe an IC is helpful, but they need to encourage the newbies to play rather than monopolize the game.

That's a fair point.

I'll sit back a bit to "make room" for the newbies to get their feet wet.

You're already playing this game from the back of the room, how much farther can you "sit back"?

My activity dwarfs that of pretty much everybody else in this game.

If you're going to poke the bear, you better have something better than that pathetic stick.

Activity/post count has little to do with game play.

[oldwino]

Mastina is working her way through her thoughts and analysis.
Darklyn shared thoughts and town-scum rankings in 464.
I shared my best thoughts and town-scum rankings in 403.

How about everyone else? Not walls, not cheap shots, not one-on-ones with anyone right not, but summaries, leanings, town, scum, scum team? Please!

Personally, I am more suspicious now of RC's lack of substance through most of the game and giving some cred to Mastina's suspicions and reasons to suspect Smith. Not ready to change my vote or re-order my list, but thinking about both. And not seeing any change in Pieg's behavior (none) from Ulti's so suspicious of Pieg.

Spoiler:

Now on to other thoughts. I think the feud, as I called it, between Smith and Grey is NAI. I don't know either one, don't know anyone in this game, and don't have the time to dig into past games and try to figure out their meta play. So I'm just going on what I read in this game, including some of the posts they have embedded from prior games, but not much of that. Lots of skimming because, even though I am 'old' (not elderly, thank you very much) and retired, I have a busy life. I like spending and hour or so twice a day playing the game, but don't want to spend much more than that because I have so much else going on.

Anyway, I think the feud between Smith and Grey is NAI. Male ego, maybe more defensiveness from Smith than I like, but his overall play seems to be townish, helping newbies (who are mostly silent in this game) understand the game and themselves. I don't find Grey as helpful, but I believe him about not bussing except in an extremely rare situation. I am null to leaning town on both.

RC has been suspiciously quiet lately, and hasn't addressed my question about not voting Mastina, even though RC said at one point she couldn't see Mastina being town (said much more eloquently by RC in post 239). Still leaning town on RC, but not as much as early on.

Leaning town on Dog. I think her questions and observations are good, confident, cautious and she reflects my POV often.

JDW (and now Icy) are confirmed BP so town.

I'm still leaning scum on Mastina. I appreciate all of her teaching and in-depth posts to help us newbies learn and understand the game, but I am still suspicious of her early, what I think was weak, rationale for thinking I was scum. Maybe she was trying me out, testing me, trying to egg me on to be more decisive and a better player. But I think her read on me was weak and almost contrived. And, maybe, just maybe, she is overplaying her IC role to keep a lower player profile because she is scum. Maybe. I'm about 60% scum on Mastina and on D1, as a newbie, I am more likely to be wrong than right, but that's probably common on D1. But she and Ulti seem the most scummy to me. Sometwo have to be scum.

Leaning scum on Alti for the reasons I cited in my last post.

And leaning scum on AA-Dono because she's been so quiet and hasn't said much when she's posted. Another possible newbie scum not knowing what to do. Or a townie with not much time to play.

All my leanings on D1 are with extreme caution because we won't know much until we get someone to L1 and they claim JK or Tracker, if that happens, and until we lynch someone, most likely a townie, and see where the alignments were and how they got there.

For now
Townish to scumish
Me, of course
Icy
Dog
RC
Grey
Smith
AA
Ulti
Mastina (although I am about equally suspicious of Mastina and Ulti, Mastina would be much more dangerous scum to leave alive than Ulti)

Now I'm off again until later today.

[Icy]

This is just a bad case of stall. It seems clear to me that you don't want to give your explanations, you answered posts for 1 hour and 45 minutes.

General note, and this is to all players, not just you:
NEVER accuse a player of lying about real life. (You never know when you might one day have a player accuse YOU of lying about something you know is true and just imagine how that'll make you feel if it does happen--and realize that's why you just fucking don't.)

Nobody lies about their real life.
So when I say I couldn't get my shit together (a very personal thing)...I mean I couldn't get my shit together.
Not a lie, not an exaggeration. Lying about real-life is unethical. It is frankly the most sack-of-shit thing a person is technically allowed to do.
To be blunt I'd rather abuse my role as the IC, I'd rather lie about game theory, than I would lie about real life. And I consider those things sacred! That's just to give you an idea of just how fucking much I mean it when I say:

don't. do. this

. Ever.
Real life is sacred to mafia players. You don't lie about real life, and in return you also don't

accuse

people of lying about real life.

In this case: I want to give the explanations, I just am having difficulty doing so.
The answering of posts is actually a minimum time requirement--it is me barely coasting by. It takes me that long just to fucking coast by. To actually give the game the content it deserves requires me to invest the two hours you mention PLUS the 3+ hours or so for the project. The reason I need to answer posts is also self-evident enough: if I worked on the explanation at the expense of being caught up on the thread, I would fall behind and be unable to be up-to-date on the gamestate, something which I consider crucial to the role of a player.

My first priority is staying up to date with the game.
My second priority is the explanation I have promised--it takes a back seat to maintaining my first priority.

I'm sorry if I came across like I thought you were lying about RLI. I didn't mean to. Point of the matter is you are not playing against robots. We all have RLI, most of us just choose not to bring them to the game, and I'm not going to back down from the fact that Scum could use RLI as a place to hide.

[oldwino]

We need EC's and maybe an IC is helpful, but they need to encourage the newbies to play rather than monopolize the game.

That's a fair point.

I'll sit back a bit to "make room" for the newbies to get their feet wet.

You're already playing this game from the back of the room, how much farther can you "sit back"?

My activity dwarfs that of pretty much everybody else in this game.

If you're going to poke the bear, you better have something better than that pathetic stick.

Activity/post count has little to do with game play.

Posting is the only game play. And posting/activity is risky, townish, because it opens you up to inconsistencies, intentional flaws in logic, and is the only way, I think, to scum-hunt. Many, many empty posts don't help and is scummy, but silence, I think, is much scummier.

[Icy]

Right, so beginning my explanation.
The first thing you should know is a little quirk in my RVS reads--while

normally

, I read things post-by-post, sometimes, especially in the case of the RVS, I cheat: I read the entire page before commenting on the page. This is the secret sauce behind a large section of my reads. So while I'll quote the FIRST post that a player makes during the RVS, that post is not necessarily the foundation upon which I build their alignment.

In particular: When it came to RC, I knew that regardless of his alignment, he was going to type 6 no matter what. There might've been a difference between wording, but the general RVS vote was going to be formatted basically that way no matter what. I felt that if there was an alignment it was more likely to be town than not--this is true enough, but that's a big "if". (And coming from me, the girl who reads a lot into RVS votes, that should tell you quite a lot in how little I valued it.)

However

, largely (ironically enough) thanks to mhsmith, I became aware of RC's reasoning behind 12. I also liked on the same subject 23. While it is true that RC as scum would probably make the same argument (I maintain that the BP claim is neither harmful nor helpful to either side), the way that RadiantCowbells went about his stance felt incredibly town. Additionally, his post 10, where he explained the history behind his RVS, also felt immensely town--while his INITIAL RVS would be almost identical regardless of alignment, his followthrough posting would be different.

And the way he went about it, the wording he chose, the order of his posting, and his focus, it all felt town. The reason I labeled him with "Town?" rather than "town.", though, is because I am admittedly not intimately familiar with RadiantCowbells's scumgame. While I don't

think

his approach came from scum, I lacked the knowledge to for sure say someone of his caliber absolutely couldn't be scum with that entrance.

Thanks for finally posting thoughts on your reads. At this point I'll just say I disagree with them.

[Icy]

My list at this point

Mhsmith
Dogwatch
Oldwino

RC
Pieg
Darklyn

Grey
Mastina

[DogWatch]

@mastina Are you going to address this?

I did.

No, you skipped the part where I read all that and STILL called you scum.

[pieg]

Checking out for a while. Maybe be back later tonight, maybe not. Drinks, dinner, TV, sleep.

why this post? color me curious.

Incidentally, if you're interested in verifying my teaching history: here are my relatively recent IC games.

Two of the above, I was scum.
The rest were town.
In both, my teaching was about the same. (Though from memory I may have actually taught more as scum? Would have to read in detail to confirm that.) In none did I lie.

interesting games, i never knew you were from em. you look so much the same back then, i'd normally not consider 3-4 year old meta to be particularly relevant but tonally you're largely similar and your whole approach just looks unchanged for the most part. if it ain't broke, i guess.

I think in both posts Smith was trying to get Ulti to participate. The first one, maybe a bit sarcastic and humorous (humorous sarcasm) but still trying to stimulate some better participation. The second post, the wagon whistle, shows more suspicion that Ulti many be scum, but despite Smith's thoughts about Ulti's alignment, Smith was trying to get Ulti to participate. I think both of these Smith posts were townish, even if only slightly so. Townish (I knew you'd ask) because they are trying to get someone who is appearing scummy to defend themselves, to participate, hence drawing them out to potentially better expose their scummyness, rather than keep quiet, keep their head down.

i have a few questions for you here. what made you come to that conclusion? why didn't you engage smith about it directly and ask him what his intentions were? i don't see any follow-up with smith to get a real picture of his motives on that, so why are you satisfied with your read on smith right now?

help me understand your stance here on the wagon, because while ulti was too much of a newb to figure out voting, you're judging him poorly for trying to put mastina at l-1? do you think he knew what l-1 was? what do you think about grey's vote and his posts leading up to it? if i'm missing you commenting on that somewhere, point me to it, because i don't see anything.

Cringed tbh

what is your vote doing?

We need EC's and maybe an IC is helpful, but they need to encourage the newbies to play rather than monopolize the game.

That's a fair point.

I'll sit back a bit to "make room" for the newbies to get their feet wet.

You're already playing this game from the back of the room, how much farther can you "sit back"?

My activity dwarfs that of pretty much everybody else in this game.

If you're going to poke the bear, you better have something better than that pathetic stick.

Activity/post count has little to do with game play.

Posting is the only game play. And posting/activity is risky, townish, because it opens you up to inconsistencies, intentional flaws in logic, and is the only way, I think, to scum-hunt. Many, many empty posts don't help and is scummy, but silence, I think, is much scummier.

this is interesting. do you have any reasons (experience?) to think this is true? activity is generally seen to be nai on ms, and the scum meta is pretty strong here so people generally have no issue being highly active or leadng town as scum. i noticed at the start of day you were also talking about feeling exposed / vulnerable when you post. why do you think this is? do you think town can't have inconsistencies in their play or make logical errors? how familiar are you with projection?

[Darklyn]

My list at this point

Mhsmith
Dogwatch
Oldwino

RC
Pieg
Darklyn

Grey
Mastina

Why is Mhsmith your biggest town read?

[pieg]

mhsmith0: seems a little nervous and worried how others perceive him

Basically, this is a HUGE fucking part of my problem with mhsmith. The amount of effort he has spent on trying to shut down reasons for him being a valid suspect FAR outweighs the amount of effort he has spent on trying to increase the strength of his reads--and that, my friends, is the fundamental divide at its most basic level between town and scum.

I WILL be bringing this up in my full explanation. (I intend for my full explanation to cover the whole game, so...I'm probably going to break it up into chunks of a few pages here and there, rather than all at once, but ideally I'll finish it all at the same time, just in separate posts.)

But really. Iso mhsmith.
See how much time he spends attacking me prior to my attacks on him.
See how much time he spends attacking me after my attacks on him.
See how much time he spends on Grey prior to Grey attacking him.
See how much time he spends on Grey after Grey attacked him.
See how much time he spends trying to follow through on his questions.
See how much time he spends trying to make something productive happen.
Then see how much time he spends instead shutting things down, which is the antithesis of productivity.

as much trouble as i've been having trying to sort you all through the game, this is finally something i can follow and get a solid read off. hadn't even caught that angle on smith tbh.

Spoiler: smith iso snippet

Teaching time, and free tip!
When there is a town-town fight, fueling the flames is scummy behavior. Super awkward engagement is scummy behavior. Actively working to defuse the argument is towny behavior (provided it's town-town). Actively working to figure out who is right is towny behavior. Doing nothing is basically null. In a town-town fight, scum could be:
-doing nothing while actively posting;
OR
-doing nothing because they weren't around;
It's unclear why in particular the "doing nothing" of OW/DW was considered suspicious; mastina has stated that this wasn't the basis of her read, but this post in particular suggests that it WAS a meaningful portion of her read (otherwise it's just theory fluff and IIOA).
So I guess I'll ask: mastina, please clarify whether the engagement with RC/Grey was a meaningful portion of your read. If so, why did you say it wasn't? If not, what was the point of this post?

this post pings me a little. notice how smith subtly frames his exchange with grey as a tvt here. if smith is scum this could definitely be coaching because giving general advice like this is a great way to get away with it without laying any of the associatives you'd get from addressing a slot directly. i'd also somewhat disagree with those behavioral categorizations, they're a little stereotyped imo, what i really try to look for in these exchanges is who has what motive, and that can only really be judged in context.

I am flagrantly unable to see Mastina as town here.

You know it's funny. I'm reminded of her point raised a while ago
Subject: Mini normal 1823 dead thread

Helpful hint:
If you EVER,
And I do mean, EVER,
Think, "This can't possibly be town, right?"
100% of the time:
It's town.

but then I kinda wonder if she might just be going for a bizarre play here or just actually be super not good as scum. Like if this was a game with a jester or mime I'd just say there's our answer, but obviously that's not on the table here.

Basically she's nullscum to me rn. Like, I want to say that oldwino was being opportunistic in his push and read in her, but the manner in which she is playing makes it entirely plausible that he's justified in pushing her and is just not doing a good job of it. And I can envision a world in which she thinks that playing in a super opaque manner is actually productive, which would then mean that her doing this as scum would be a result of her actually having intended to do it as town and just imitating the process.

remarkable thing about this post, and this is kind of the vibe i get from a lot of smith's posts, is that he's not really said anything at all here. it's empty content, theorizing and talking for the sake of talking. 408 is another example of this.

I didnt know how to vote sorry
I voted them because I have a feeling they are bad and because rather than trying to defend themself they are posting things like "frankly i dont give a damn"

and town members should be trying harder than that

[/u][/b]
This is basically the epitome of pot calling kettle black. Why do you have a feeling she's bad?

i really don't want to be rude about this but this is just uncalled for. like this is a newbie game for a reason. calling them bad does not get anyone anywhere.

that said, my skin's not really crawling at any of this. much of the issues i have with smith's lack of positive content are the same issues i'm having with your slot, circling around arguments and explanations without ever really hitting center (i realize you've promised more content tomorrow) and it's just impossible to get a solid read on you. like i can see the connections from the start to your read on smith but they were so dense and vague that i basically feel as though you could've given any read on him or any other slot almost and found justification for it in your iso.

[pieg]

My list at this point

Mhsmith
Dogwatch
Oldwino

RC
Pieg
Darklyn

Grey
Mastina

basis for your tr on wino? can't say i'm a fan of the slot rn

[Icy]

Why is Mhsmith your biggest town read?

I think he has been helpful thus far to town, and I see the Smith/grey thing as a chest beating contest, or a town vs scum thing.

[pieg]

My list at this point

Mhsmith
Dogwatch
Oldwino

RC
Pieg
Darklyn

Grey
Mastina

Why is Mhsmith your biggest town read?

i need content from you darklyn

VOTE: darklyn

please make some

what are your reads? who's scum?

life is keeping me way too busy so i'm out for now sorry

[pieg]

forgot to copy this into my wall

Hi all. reading up
UNVOTE:

I'm a bit saddened and disappointed that Ulti left, and I feel that leaving was partially because Ulti didn't know how to handle the game and I feel a bit responsible for that.

I also am a little bit disheartened that we didn't get a newbie to replace the newbie slot.
I do have to ask, though. pieg, are you:
-A public alt (such as me switching from mastin2 to mastina)
-A publicly known alt (that is, a player making no secret they are an alt but not sharing their identity),
-Or just a player really really really REALLY bad at hiding them being an alt?

Because 434 tells me you're sure as fuck not a newbie.

eh i don't see how you're responsible, it was grey who was needlessly antagonistic imo and smith just went along. half don't even want to say so because there's just been a little too much antagonism in this game already. i'm a publicly known alt i guess? except the point the alt being that people don't know me and i can free up my game a little. hoping you don't mean that you know who my main is off just one post... anyway, i'm essentially viewing myself as an extra se here. it helps that teaching is something i really thrive on.

[Darklyn]

My list at this point

Mhsmith
Dogwatch
Oldwino

RC
Pieg
Darklyn

Grey
Mastina

Why is Mhsmith your biggest town read?

i need content from you darklyn

VOTE: darklyn

please make some

what are your reads? who's scum?

life is keeping me way too busy so i'm out for now sorry

Refer to my earlier posts

Why is Mhsmith your biggest town read?

I think he has been helpful thus far to town, and I see the Smith/grey thing as a chest beating contest, or a town vs scum thing.

You thought Smith was the town looking one in that exchange?

[mhsmith0]

basis for your tr on wino? can't say i'm a fan of the slot rn

This is a potentially useful engagement with the town clear, since it's actually asking a substantive question wtih the potential to do something. Compare that to:

You thought Smith was the town looking one in that exchange?

This is fluff. In the very same quote you ask this, you can see Icy had me as his strongest town read, so the answer to your question is very clearly "yes". If there's a reason why you disagree with this assessment, you should be engaging on substance, preferably with an explanation of why you disagree.
Questions to you:

VOTE: RadiantCowbells
has made an effort to drift through the game without being noticed
mhsmith0: seems a little nervous and worried how others perceive him
DogWatch: Gut feeling says town so far
oldwino: Town vibe, trying to be helpful, he is a pretty confident if a newbie scum
pieg: Hasn't posted enough to form an opinion
Grey: Ehh Null, posting style isn't indicative of anything to me
mastina: Difficult player to read

1) Why do you think RC has been trying to be UTR? Just the overall low level of content, or is there something specific in his postings that make you think he's trying not to be noticed?
2) Sure, mastina is difficult to read. What's your opinion on her anyway? Do you think she's playing up her opaqueness as scum? As town? Does it make no sense to you either way?
3) You gave a non-opinion on Grey, with a bit of shade on me. Your 493 suggests you think I'm the scum side of that back and forth (while not actually town-reading Grey). Why is that?

[mhsmith0]

this post pings me a little. notice how smith subtly frames his exchange with grey as a tvt here. if smith is scum this could definitely be coaching because giving general advice like this is a great way to get away with it without laying any of the associatives you'd get from addressing a slot directly. i'd also somewhat disagree with those behavioral categorizations, they're a little stereotyped imo, what i really try to look for in these exchanges is who has what motive, and that can only really be judged in context.

The meaningful exchange between me and Grey came well after after the quote you discussed. Either I can see the future or you need to pay more attention to what happened when.
PS I think this is about the billionth time I've had someone talk about "coaching" on my end (open 642 is an obvious example of this, but I know there are others). If I wanted to coach seriously, I'd do it pregame. I suppose I might actually "coach" a buddy in a game thread at some point just for the WIFOM of it, but anyone who actually thinks I'd be coaching a buddy in thread, much less a buddy with experience, needs to seriously rethink how ANYONE would actually act in thread as scum.

remarkable thing about this post, and this is kind of the vibe i get from a lot of smith's posts, is that he's not really said anything at all here. it's empty content, theorizing and talking for the sake of talking. 408 is another example of this.

You know, I thought the point I was making in 242 was reasonably clear: oldwino's behavior seemed generically scummy and plausibly opportunistic, but the manner in which mastina has behaved made it much more plausible town behavior (translation: the manner in which mastina has been behaving is bad and she should stop doing it, and by stopping her behavior, I'll be better able to read people without the noise associated with people potentially being legitimatelly off-put by what she's doing. Apparently I needed to be clearer?

i really don't want to be rude about this but this is just uncalled for. like this is a newbie game for a reason. calling them bad does not get anyone anywhere.

"Pot calling kettle black" refers to Ulti's "town members shoudl be trying harder than that" (you can tell this is the key part I'm responding to because I bolded/underlined it). "Bad" refers to being scum and is the same use of the terminology Ulti chose to use. I originally had a snarky comment here, but I guess I can see how it might be misunderstood by someone skimming.

[mhsmith0]

My list at this point

Mhsmith
Dogwatch
Oldwino

RC
Pieg
Darklyn

Grey
Mastina

If you were making a similar list in your previous newbie games on MS around midday d1, where would scum have been?

[mhsmith0]

@mastina: I'll respond to your walls when I have more free time (probably tonight) but in the meantime: which of my town games have you read to develop your meta expectation of my town game? Have you read any of my scum games? If so which ones? Please and thank you.

[Darklyn]

basis for your tr on wino? can't say i'm a fan of the slot rn

This is fluff. In the very same quote you ask this, you can see Icy had me as his strongest town read, so the answer to your question is very clearly "yes". If there's a reason why you disagree with this assessment, you should be engaging on substance, preferably with an explanation of why you disagree.

Less fluff and more of a second attempt to get him to explain his reads on Grey and yourself, don't take it personally! I think he's the only player scumreading Grey and he hasn't explained why (or any of his reads)

1) Why do you think RC has been trying to be UTR? Just the overall low level of content, or is there something specific in his postings that make you think he's trying not to be noticed?

If you read his meta his posting style in this game is slightly different to usual. Also his OMGUS vote was ehhh, felt like he was pretending he didn't care but it came a bit too quick of a response like he was caught off guard.

2) Sure, mastina is difficult to read. What's your opinion on her anyway? Do you think she's playing up her opaqueness as scum? As town? Does it make no sense to you either way?

She seems slightly more defensive based on skimming her previous IC games which could mean a lot of things. Otherwise yeah, not really sure. I mean it's day 1, most of today is based on my gut (I'm not skilled enough to claim I can pinpoint scum on the first day). My gut tells me there are better lynches for today than mastina.

3) You gave a non-opinion on Grey, with a bit of shade on me. Your 493 suggests you think I'm the scum side of that back and forth (while not actually town-reading Grey). Why is that?

You came across as nervous. Not to say you're definitely scum, it's just what I noticed and something to keep in mind.

[PenguinPower]