DoY I: British Monarchy Mafia (Mini 1896) - Game Over :O

[The Wood Cutters]

I would have if you let me.

[Aristophanes]

VC 1.3

Almost Chara

(4): Prism 108, Infinity 324 198, ThinkMomo 216, Drealmerz 238

Drealmerz7

(2): Tea and Biscuits 45, Börk Börk 97

The Wood Cutters

(2): Almost Chara 28, Nancy 133

ThinkMomo

(1): PenguinPower 87

Nancy

(1): The Wood Cutters 128

Tea and Biscuits

(1): Empking 168

Not Voting

(2): Pine, Wraith

With 13 players alive, it takes 7 votes to lynch.

Day one ends Monday, April 10th at 6pm EST, or in (expired on 2017-04-10 18:00:00)

[Empking]

@238: I'm king Edward, I'm a Miller cause I was technically never crowned

But doesn't town RVS just as much as scum? So doesn't that make it not scummy by definition?

Don't want to go after dreal for now because I agree with him on things including the almost vote.

@240 Meh. As long as I don't out specific reasons I don't see the problem.

King Edward the original? As I can't see why he would not have been crowned.

[Infinity 324]

King Edward V*

[The Wood Cutters]

And actually, going a little more in depth with the Prism case:

The ;> here is playful but completely negates any pressure they might have been trying to place. I question the intent behind even posting here.

Some people early game make playful posts; criticizing the post because of it had a smiley instead of making a post that was clearly intended not to give pressure instead seems like a pretty strong reach to me.

The followup here lacks any sort of clarification as to the intent behind the original vote. The "never change" accompanied by a vote swap implies a town read via meta, but it lacks any kind of teeth. When the original post immediately negates its own pressure, I doubt the usefulness of the 3 posts as adequate to get a grasp on "same old town drealm"

The initial vote on drealmer made it fairly obvious that there wasn't any teeth in the push in the first place; your assertion that the "never change" and a vote swap has to imply town read is not a great one.

Skeptical of this claim. As mentioned previously, the interaction here with drealmerz is odd and appears to be settling for very little. Your statement implying that you were trying to fish for reactions or speculation seems to contradict the statement that you left enough for us to extrapolate that it was something about him. Are you testing people's alignments or how perceptive they are? At worst, I think your vote change was scummy in the sense that you already full well know drealm is town, at best you're testing something that correlates very little with alignment with no clear reason for doing so.

The last post is why it would be useful to talk about Not Chara in that Not Chara's assertion that its vote on me has something to do with drealmerz seems pretty baseless on the face of things. Doing something that doesn't really have a strong town motivation isn't really a big deal when there's not a strong reason for scum to do it either. I don't understand why you automatically think that Drealmer is town from this interaction in a world where Not Chara is scum; would regard a bad attempt as scumhunting as just that and wouldn't use it to determine any alignment but the scumhunter's.

[The Wood Cutters]

Question, I've not played a closed setup before.
Is there any certain setup restrictions or pasterns or whatnot they follow?
Because from what Prism has said there is three scum?
And neutrals are possible?

The only restrictions theme games currently have (and they only exist because Aristophanes said that they would, they're qualified as "Bastard" mechanics which moderators have to warn players about before the game begins) are moderator lies and moderator influence. This means that if your role PM says that you're a doctor who succeeds 100% of the time, you're a doctor who succeeds 100% of the time, and Aristophanes randomized roles and didn't pick and choose who he wanted to play scum and who he wanted to play town.

As far as informal expectations go, this is Aristophanes's first game and there's nothing that stands out horribly much in the opening posts of the game, which means that we'll probably be looking at fairly standard roles (Miller fits in pretty okay with that), but we are almost certainly dealing with three scum here and it's doubtful we're looking at a third party/neutral unless it's a Serial Killer.

[The Wood Cutters]

Rereading nancy it wasn't as bad as I thought but post #100 in particular sticks out to me as a question unlikely to lead anywhere but coming more for the sake of it.

I agree that it's not likely to be a question that leads anywhere, but I'm not sure how nancy was supposed to approach that post if it bothered her; asking Postie to talk about it (even though she probably won't be able to provide anything interesting) seems like a way that's more likely to generate discussion than quoting it and calling it bad or not posting about it at all.

Simply talking gets you nowhere until it gains teeth.

Puffing yourself up to make your case scarier than it actually is also detracts from the validity of it.

Ok so you're saying nancy is scum cause she doesn't have doubt? Doubt on what?

EBWOP

I'm not going to blindly sheep you, no matter what your player names are.

Going to veer offtopic slightly for a small word of warning - I'm an aggressive player, I'm a loud player, and there will probably be some point down the road where I'll be begging you to sheep me on a player because I strongly feel they are town or scum. I don't do this because I expect people to bow down to my almighty reputation, I do it because I believe very strongly in what I say (or am faking like I am); I wouldn't play this game if I didn't take it entirely too seriously so please don't mistake passion for arrogance.

really facilitates any subsequent flip-flopping either way

But why is necessary to leave yourself room to flipflop on page 4? Do you not think it's reasonable to change a read that was originally given on page 4?

So, blah blah, first of all, you haven't yet engaged with my slot in a meaningful way. Your approach here is pure rhetoric. Second of all, you're pushing a narrative that holds only a semblance of truth. Your reads (including the one on me, yes, well selected) sucking have little to do with my vote. Your lack of hesitance in handing out town labels based on a scarcity of info is mainly what drew me away from drealmer. The only way you can argue to the contrary is by flat out calling me a liar from the get-go, which is.. uh.. well, not a position you have any ground to support yourself on, so that's not gonna end well for you. You scumbuds with dreal, bro?

I like this response for the most part.
I disagree in general that handing out town reads early is something that's scummy in any sense of the word; giving out reads early game is in general for the sake of transparency, at least when I do them. I tend to focus on getting things out there, pulling on threads as much as I can early even though I'm generally pretty aware that 90% of those reads won't matter dick five pages later, but generally putting that out there can generate responses that lead to the good stuff (and there is just as much merit in making people comfortable as there is as making them uncomfortable).

I don't know if this is coincidental or if Nacho took inspiration but I'm amused.

I made that comment before you were even born.
Why were you waiting for my entrance in order to read us? The Gin post you noted seemed like a good opportunity to pressure, get a read.

Okay, Almost is getting scummier by the second. I have some post flip analysis depending.

This is an absurdly early time to get plugging away on something like this, but I'd appreciate it if you posted it anyways - would help my read on you quite a bit if it looked genuine enough.

it's a a bad idea to lynch a VT claim on D1, and especially so when I claimed w/o any pressure. If I'm "anything but" a Tracker, a Watcher, a Neapolitan, a Role Cop, as well as many other roles can catch me in a lie.

There are plenty of ways to catch you out, but that doesn't make you a bad lynch if you look scummy (it's typically not worth it to out those roles you note in order to confirm you town and only a select few of the roles you can actually confirm you as town). Why did you claim VT, anyways (and if this is a question you'd rather answer later just don't forget about it). I find your original post on us to be pretty obviously disingenuous (maybe mastina knows a ton about you but I certainly don't and from the way you patted Gin on the head you clearly don't respect his ability to read us either), but don't know what you're looking for with that gambit as far as the "reading us" front goes.

Punctuation is indicative of a certain thought process, and at first glance I don't think it's particularly indicative of a town!mastina thought process.

Noting that a punctuation case is silly is not pedantic. The case itself, on the other hand, is the very picture of pedantry.

[The Wood Cutters]

Mainly waiting on Nacho to read Wood Cutters, which will likely peeve him slightly and I am a-OK with that. Surf's up.

So, right now, it seems like your initial approach was that you're Back With a Vengeance Part II and then from there you fizzled out completely shortly after. If your approach was the one that you described to Infinity (making something happen, killing people, etc), then why haven't you tried to read Nancy on anything other than the question that you're convinced had no intent behind it? Why didn't you engage with Gin when he made a post that was iffy? Why didn't you try to talk to the Almost head when they appeared? Do you have any interesting takes on anything or was your plan for today was to pick one fight and then feed on scraps for the rest of the game?

[The Wood Cutters]

And SuperJack loves readslists so here's one, just for him:

Infinity - I liked what he's picking up on (while he let Prism go too easily, I liked that he pressed it in the first place) and I liked him saying that he wasn't going to sheep us because of our big and scary reputations (seemed like there was genuine emotion behind him pushing back where if he's scum then I expect his approach to us to look different since believing us to be arrogant assholes would be more inclined to push him to manipulate the shit out of us and make us look silly instead of what happened there).

Tea and Biscuits - Postie's entrance is slightly town for me; I don't think her drealmer push is a push with merit (could be right, could be wrong, but the reasons she's pushing it for don't seem alignment indicative to me), but it seems odd to me for her to go all out ballistic trying to mislynch him from the opening when smart scum play is to wait for him to lynch himself.

Almost Chara - I didn't really love Chara's opening but I didn't hate it. I think Almost claiming VT instantly is probably more likely to be a town move (takes away a fakeclaim from scum for basically no reason) although I obviously don't believe that he's doing it because we're "oh so scary". Might be a stronger townread if I had any idea what he was doing at all.

ThinkMomo - I think that momo's push on Almost Chara for being a lying liar who lies looks pretty genuine. Nothing stood out other than that.

Pine - I'm fairly confident that mastin and Gin have 100% confident reads on him either way. Because I'm not an absolute crazy person, he's in null for me.

PenguinPower - The only reason I knew he posted was because Prism referenced the post he made. Null, find "sewing seeds of confusion" a ridiculous reason for voting but don't really care about a singular vote on a very early page.

Drealmerz - Seems pretty normal so far. I have slight concerns because he doesn't have anything resembling emotional engagement with the game so far, but that too is normal for him (look at me learning from his mistakes!) so I'm inclined to let him do his thing for now.

Bork Bork - Didn't like his vote on the drealmer wagon (didn't make sense). The way he pushed off questioning about it seemed almost too brazen to be coming from scum but that reasoning isn't strong in and of itself.

Prism - Have already gone in depth into this read enough, but the short version is that his Almost Chara case is nine parts fizzle and one part bite, his read on nancy seems lazy if I'm feeling charitable, and still underwhelmed and was expecting some more pizzazz after he made his opening posts about how hyped he was to be in the saddle again.

Empking - Vote on drealmer wagon is bleh, focus on Infinity's miller claim is additionally bleh.

Wraith - Gross posting all around.

[The Wood Cutters]

Main concern with Wraith is the general sense that he hasn't come close to caring about this game even a little bit, which is understandable for ~reasons~, but I'm not sure I would expect the apathy to start immediately when the game hasn't really gotten out of hand at all.

I feel like I've seen this episode a hundred times

This is something that could be happening because he feels apathetic in general, but I don't like how he didn't make even a cursory effort to engage Postie on her read when he's seen people making a similar mistake many times before. As scum, it's a very going through the motions type of post - he weighs in on the situation but there's nothing more than that.

Miller? In a Mini?

...Really?

And I don't really understand this reaction at all; how are millers in minis so much as vaguely strange, especially when you have experience with hated dayvigs and lyncher JOATs in a recent-ish theme we've played together?

Vote: Wraith

[The Wood Cutters]

I also thought that I included nancy in that readslist, but apparently didn't - she's just below Infinity on the townlist; I've liked her pushback against our slot in particular, but her engagement with pretty much all of the slots that posted things she didn't like seem fairly genuine to me. I'd like to talk to mastina about her a little bit since apparently there's history here, but I think Gin and I are at least on the same page with that read.

[Tea and Biscuits]

My brain's a little fuzzy right now so I don't have anything major to contribute right now but I'm mostly caught-up.

Why is OMGUS scummy? I've found it a decently reliable towntell dependent on a few factors (name kind of player)

The question mark nonsense is a pretty bad mischaracterization and I don't like that you're selling it. She made it explicit that she doubted the certainty of the reads, which has to do with interpreting syntactical choices. The significance of the punctuation is in what it signals. I'd get it if there were confusion over

where

it would make a difference, but it is crystal clear on my end and I suspect to anyone who read the posts in question.

I was typing up responses to the Woodcutters/nancy thing but Prism said everything I wanted to say here.

P.S. I feel it;s going to be impossible to fake anything and get it past The Wood Cutters. Between them 3 they have seen almost everything I'm capable of, so I'm going to come clean: We're just a mere VT

This comment seems to be the basis for the wagon that's forming on Almost Chara. I think someone criticised it for assuming The Wood Cutters are town but I think that's dumb because it's possible to assume someone is town for the sake of a hypothetical scenario without assuming they're town in the game. What I don't understand is why they'd comment on how hard it would be to fake things with town!WC in the game, since that seems like a scum!Almost versus town!WC scenario, which town!Almost shouldn't need to worry about? But I'm also having a hard time buying that scum!Almost would just write up what they're worried about as scum and post it in the game thread. So I'd really just like some clarification from Almost Chara about wtf they were trying to say.

More stuff later.

-- Postie

[Infinity 324]

I obviously don't believe that he's doing it because we're "oh so scary"

Why not? It definitely read that way to me.

I don't think you guys are arrogant, I just didn't like that gin wanted me to vote nancy and wasn't really explaining why.

[The Wood Cutters]

I obviously don't believe that he's doing it because we're "oh so scary"

Why not? It definitely read that way to me.

I don't think you guys are arrogant, I just didn't like that gin wanted me to vote nancy and wasn't really explaining why.

If Almost genuinely believed that we would figure him out, then claiming early makes absolutely no sense (since we wouldn't let him get run up to claim, presumably). Neither Gin and I have the experience with him that justifies him going "oh you three are so scary" instead "oh mastina you're so scary".

[Infinity 324]

I agree that I don't think town!almost was scared of you

But sure, I'll wait for him to clarify more.

[Wraith]

King Edward V*

rofl are you serious?

One of the Princes in the Tower? A Miller?

[The Wood Cutters]

So Wraith, besides him being a miller, what don't you like about his play?

[Wraith]

Dunno. I've only vaguely been following along the past two days since I hate RVS, but planned to catch back up after we hit 10 pages.

[The Wood Cutters]

Dunno. I've only vaguely been following along the past two days since I hate RVS, but planned to catch back up after we hit 10 pages.

And I don't mean to be an ass but we're long past RVS and we're past page 10 - why are you still caught up on the miller claim for pretty much no reason whatsoever?

[Wraith]

I just don't buy it. But I am also seeing it largely out of context.

[The Wood Cutters]

I don't think context matters much; it's a miller claim, and that's about it.

I don't think this conversation will bring us anywhere good until you catch up and have something to stand up behind, so please please do so as soon as possible.

[Infinity 324]

I don't see why a real claim wild make more flavor sense than a fakeclaim. But I don't really know the flavor

[drealmerz7]

... but we are almost certainly dealing with three scum here and

it's doubtful we're looking at a third party/neutral unless it's a Serial Killer.

I take issue with the first, non-underlined part because the certainty is too strong, as for the underlined part, what makes you so doubtful about that, TWC? why no jester in the british court? why no neutral survivor who just wants all the killing to stop? what sense does a serial killer make in this flavor setup, do we have Jack the Ripper walking around among us do you think? please help me see your thoughts that allowed you to come up with this statement

Do you have any interesting takes on anything or was your plan for today was to pick one fight and then feed on scraps for the rest of the game?

this seems unecessarily harsh and a bit pre-mature, the game has been going not even a day, and while you might not have been wowed by prism's first forray into this game, jumping to these thoughts is too much, like you're trying to pick a fight and potentially even sap some of the strength of their reads going forward by this pre-emptive underminining you've done here

and then I compare what I feel like you've done so far to this point vs. what prism has done so far to this point, and I like what they've done a lot more than what you have (though I'm liking your more activity this morning simply because it is more activity and that is necessary to read you - what we were getting yesterday after game-start was weaksauce)

do you think what prism has done is scummy? or just weak?

...drealmer...smart scum play is to wait for him to lynch himself.

can you elaborate what you mean by this? I started to address it and then realized I could be accused of making assumptions and so I'd like you to expand on it first

Almost Chara - I didn't really love Chara's opening but I didn't hate it. I think Almost claiming VT instantly is probably more likely to be a town move (takes away a fakeclaim from scum for basically no reason) although I obviously don't believe that he's doing it because we're "oh so scary". Might be a stronger townread if I had any idea what he was doing at all.

I hate this entire section. You didn't love it, you didn't hate it, wow, can you be more non-commital before then going on to make a case that they're probably town as weakly as you can? just comes off as "I REALLY want to TR this slot but I've got to make it seem like I'm not as gung-ho about that as I want to be" - like you either know they're town and are prepping for their potential ML or you are their scumbuddy and don't want to help lynch them because you know the momentum on that wagon is at a crucial point and no way are you going to even pretend to be on board with that

Pine - I'm fairly confident that mastin and Gin have 100% confident reads on him either way. Because I'm not an absolute crazy person, he's in null for me.

so, you're confident that they're confident but you're not confident in that confidence? got it

Drealmerz ... he doesn't have anything resembling emotional engagement with the game so far, but that too is normal for him (look at me learning from his mistakes!) so I'm inclined to let him do his thing for now.

I don't? what constitutes emotional engagement, to you? wait so it is both normal for me to not and to? and that concerns you but you're going to let me do it for now? stinky - HEY, WOODCUTTER SLOT, ENGAGE ME! or are you just "waiting for me to lynch myself" ?

Dunno. I've only vaguely been following along the past two days since I hate RVS, but planned to catch back up after we hit 10 pages.

there was no RVS, get in the game

@TWC, I asked about the so-solid read on pine, and while I realize it came from different heads, make sure the 3 of you know I need gotten back to on it sooner rather than later

[The Wood Cutters]

Regarding mastina and I, we got gut reads on Pine and they're usually instantaneous. Strong gut based off of experience really. Nacho doesn't have that experience, ergo null. Makes sense really.

I imagine a follow up would be, why aren't we pressing Pine if we think he's scum? It's because there is 1 post and nothing to actually press on with. For lack of a better term, there are more pressing matters at this time while we wait for content by Pine.
[line][/line]

@ThinkMomo, mainly ThinkBig, what's on your mind?

[drealmerz7]

how do you feel about that, pine?